PoA Chapter Twelve

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Harry knows Hermione means well, but he’s still angry at her because he only had the Firebolt for a few minutes and now he doesn’t know if he’ll ever see it again. So Harry’s smart enough to know Hermione meant well, but too dumb to figure out that he will see his broom again, unless it’s got deadly curses on it, in which case he shouldn’t want to see it. It's a very specific level of smart.

Oh, he’s worried that it won’t be in a good state after anti-jinx tests. Why would that should hurt it at all?

Besides, if it was hurt by the tests it’s not like people wouldn’t buy him a new one. Hell, the Firebolt people would probably give him a replacement gladly.

Ron's mad at Hermione too, because this is one of those times when he's living vicariously through Harry rather than being insanely jealous of him.

Wood comes back, worried about Harry being knocked out by Dementors again. Why don’t they just make sure that Dementors will be kept off the field of play like they were supposed to be anyway? Or resolve to call a time out if that happens?

Think back at all the times we’re supposed to be seeing Slytherin cheating in this game. Like Flint almost knocking Harry off his broom (without the aid of an iron ball) and Malfoy grabbing on to Harry’s broom twigs. That’s cheating, but an army of Dementors rushing the field and knocking out the Seeker is allowed for in the rules?

Wood wants the broom back because having a Firebolt on the team is actually a huge advantage. Gee, ya think?

People will continue to mention this fact in future, but somehow never resent Harry for it at all. The general attitude is usually "Well, I didn’t have a chance against you on that Firebolt, Harry, but I don’t mind since I know you’re so talented you could have beaten me without it!"

CoMC has an unusually good lesson because they get to collect firewood. No, really.

Hermione’s carrying around a heavy bag of books that she can barely keep closed. Of course she could shrink her books to be easy to carry, but then we thickos wouldn’t remember she’s taking too many classes for hours in the day. While also drawing attention to the fact that Lupin’s illness is a MYSTERY that she has solved.

Hermione would have been even more impatient with all the Malfoy-as-werewolf theories after HBP than I was.

Lupin’s found another boggart. The first one was sacrificed so only Gryffindors could learn about them. This one’s for Harry personally.

Lupin announces he’s going to teach Harry the Patronus, which is way beyond OWL level. Even though ordinary teenagers can do them with less effort than seems to go into making a basic Potion and they are constantly finding reasons to use it.

You know how a boggart morphs into the greatest fear of whoever it faces? The Patronus charms gains and loses difficulty depending on the needs of the plot.

Proving my point, Lupin stresses that many qualified wizards can’t do it. Even though we’ll see the whole DA manage it. If only those other wizards were taught by Harry!

For all that build up, the charm’s not that difficult. Harry has more trouble with Accio in the next book.

Actually, I think I just answered my own question there. It's never been that the charm's technically difficult, but it's difficult based on your personality. Many qualified Wizards can't do it--and practically no DEs can. Because evil people don't have happy memories. Umbridge throws people off, but I'll bet that's the real subtext here.

So the boggart actually acquires the powers of a Dementor? It’s weird that Harry learns about most of what happened with his parents from a boggart.

Perhaps in Book eight, the entire wizarding world could have been invaded by an army of boggart!Voldemorts who are far scarier than the real one.

Lupin puts the boggart back in its case, ignoring the silvery orb of the full moon it's become. Which shouldn’t be too difficult since it can't really look like a real moon indoors. Still, I like that little clue.

Funny that this is his greatest fear we're talking about yet he still manages to forget his Potion when it's hours from rising.

Luckily this is Harry Potter so he doesn’t think to ask his teacher wtf that silvery orb is no matter how many times he sees it. He’s not even curious.

I’ll give Harry points for managing to make a basic connection and ask a pertinent question though: if Lupin knew James, did he also know Sirius?

Harry realizes he half enjoys hearing the voices of his parents. Dumbledore would be pleased at Harry’s suicidal tendencies.

Hermione’s got a ton of work to do, some of which is on things like how Muggles lift heavy objects. I lose a sympathy for her if she’s studying for that class.

Ron’s totally figured out Hermione’s taking many classes at once, but politely refrains from saying "What, does she have a Time Turner?"

Harry doesn’t much care about Hermione bending time and space, as it doesn’t affect him personally so far.

I need a moment to laugh at the Quidditch schedule, which has months between games. The entire wizarding world follows a school calendar without thinking about it, because they’re all unconsciously still back in school. Every year in May American wizards probably get an urge to hold a big dance in a gym decorated with crepe paper.

Btw, Harry's talking to Hermione again since he got his broom back. To review, in order to make sure Harry wouldn't be violently killed, Hermione took his broom and gave it back to him in plenty of time for his next Quidditch match. In response Harry and Ron refused to speak to her for all that time.

What's unfortunate to me reading it now is that there's no sense, to me, that Harry and Ron were angry because this behavior struck them as typical. You know what I mean? Like, it really does seem to be about 2 dumb boys being short-sighted and childish about a broom, even though once the broom's returned they can see the wisdom in what she did. IRL for the two of them to be angry like this it would probably tie into some general frustration they had with her for this kind of behavior, which is pretty typical for her.

For instance, that's why the fight with Ron works in the next book up until its non-resolution. Ron isn't just angry that he thinks Harry left him out of his plan to get into the contest, it plugs into all sorts of things that bug Ron about Harry in general. One could say the same thing about Hermione and Ron at the end of the chapter, actually, though the book doesn't really dramatize that idea either.**

Harry definitely thinks some people—like people who betray Harry’s parents and get them killed—deserve a Dementor’s kiss. Lupin isn’t so sure. First clue Lupin’s got some serious character flaws.

Neville’s lost his passwords. This will come up later. Btw, he’s lost a week’s worth because Sir Cadogan gave them to him early. Which you’d think is more on Cadogan than Neville. He could have changed the ones he planned when they went missing.

Again someone points out that the best thing about Harry having a Firebolt is that it gives him an unbeatable advantage against the other team. Which is not unsporting at all.

Hermione is writing an essay on "Why Muggles need electricity." Note the way it’s even phrased to be condescending. Muggles "need" electricity, like they depend on it and couldn’t exist without it. Instead of Muggles discovering how to harness electricity after thousands of years of successful civilization without it and using it to create things beyond the imagination of a wizard.

I’m surprised it even needs an essay. Shouldn’t it just be multiple choice where every answer is d) Muggles need X because they don’t have magic?

We end with what looks like the murder of Scabbers by cat. Naturally the sexual tension between Ron and Hermione is just palpitating throughout! And by sexual tension I mean irritation.

So a little over halfway we’re still keeping up the main themes in the book: animal hijinx, animal's violent tendencies being considered murderous/innocent or the owner's fault/the victim's fault depending on who you are and courage courage courage.

Things that happen more than once:
Harry struggles with a spell that he won't be able to do until it's most dramatic.
First in depth discussion of a soul as a corporal thing that can be sucked, torn, divided, knit into sweaters etc.
Harry produces his Patronus.
Another glimpse of Lupin's boggart.
Another boggart, in fact.
Not the first or last time we'll hear the Potters die.
The first rift in the Trio since they became the Trio, with Ron and Harry vs. Hermione.
Another pet accused of a crime.
Another character framed for murdering Peter Pettigrew when they actually trying to bring him to justice/murder him for being evil.
The boys rely on Hermione to think practically about how to stay alive.
Peter's second alleged "death" that isn't really death.
Escaped prisoner Sirius threatened with kiss, escaped prisoner Barty kissed.

It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!

Dementor’s Kiss!
Status: Totally unfired. Nobody gets kissed at all in the whole dang series. ETA: D'oh! Barty Crouch.





Designated Hero
Harry forgives Hermione for caring about him, but only after he’s got his broom back.

Hero’s Death Battle Exemption
For Scabbers, the old, fat, worn-out rat.

Informed Attributes
Patronus charm is reeeealy advanced. You have to point your stick and think of something happy while you say the magic words. This is much more difficult than pointing your stick and thinking of something funny while you say the magic words.

Misdirected Answering
McGonagall isn’t the only one who thinks people around here have their priorities out of whack. Sirius is out there living in garbage cans and avoiding the biggest man hunt in Wizard history while we worry about whether Harry’s got the biggest advantage in Quidditch he can get.

Monster Death Trap Proviso
Nope, no traps to be laid for Sirius Black just because we know he’s tried once to get into the dormitory and presumably might do so again. That kind of evidence of his whereabouts will cause no change of plans whatsoever.

"Watermelon, watermelon, cantaloupe, cantaloupe"
Presumably there was much of this in the "Firebolt reveal" scene.

Jabootu Score: 6

**TL;DR meta on this point:

It's a funny thing about Ron, actually. He's the one member of the Trio who seems to have a deeper level--weird as that sounds. Unfortunately this leads to Ron just getting the same story over and over where he's jealous and inadequate and then apologetic and sheepish. But still, it's there that Ron's insecure and surrounded by super people of whom he's alternately admiring and envious. When he's jealous of Harry's fame or thinks Hermione looks down on him, it's tied to deeper things in his character that make those sore spots.

By contrast Harry and Hermione just don't get that imo. For instance, I was really annoyed with the parallel moments in DH where Ron wryly noted the "surprise" in Hermione's voice when he did well in a battle and Hermione gave that wry surprise back to him when he said she looked nice. Because I buy Ron's insecurity around Hermione. There are moments where she does clearly expect little of him.

Hermione's insecurity about her looks, otoh, doesn't really get played as a genuine insecurity that hooks into her character in a bigger way when it really should. Usually she's just being sassily annoyed at Ron for ogling some other girl noted as beautiful in the text. Even Snape's "no difference" line just doesn't play for me as a big blow outside of that moment, perhaps because she seems to adequately prove to herself via the Yule Ball that she can be hot when she wants to be (and we'll get other confirmations that she's hot elsewhere as well). Again, unlike Ron who has his Yule Ball moment in Quidditch and still remains insecure.

The trouble is that it's not really about looks any more than Ron's troubles are really about Quidditch. Hermione's one vulnerable moment imo is when she runs off crying in PS/SS after Ron says she's got no friends. I never see that insecurity again and I feel like I should. It should inform her character, imo, at least somewhat the way Ron's insecurities inform his, if not in the same way. Ron feels overlooked and less talented and will always feel that somewhat. Hermione starts out feeling lonely and unlikable and then she just stops imo. It's not that her behavior can't imply that insecurity. She continues to keep manically busy, she makes herself needed and useful, she still needs to be the best, and we're presumably supposed to believe that she worries that Ron doesn't like her as a girlfriend. But it doesn't come across the same way imo. There were and are a lot of people who never see Hermione even show any interest in Ron that way, so how much vulnerability could they see on that front?

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Also, 'affection' shown to Hermione? Harry uses her, hopefully unconsciously. Ron does as well --

Yes, they both 'use' her - but I'd argue maybe that Ron was more blatant about it. I'm thinking now of the passage in HBP, when he and Hermione are 'talking' again and she 'wearily' volunteers to do his homework.

... when Harry falls out with Ron in the next book, does he enjoy the extra time getting to know Hermione even better, or feel bored?

The latter, I think; I don't have the book with me, I *don't think* he uses the word 'bored', but he misses the 'fun' that comes with Ron, something like that?

Book 5 (and maybe 7) was good on that front, in that Harry grew up a little, appreciated Hermione more - one or two serious conversations between them in OotP, I think. Harry had grown up, realised life was more than laughs. For H/Hr to work it was always a case of Harry maturing to catch up with Hermione :-)

That's what matters here - me being proved right! You're right, there was a definite lack of understanding there.

Yes, R/Hr didn't work, either way. Although I'd say there are fewer examples of Hermione being in the wrong? The Scabbers thing is a good instance, and then we've got the killer canary attack.

Harry always pulls away from Hermione, or shouts at her when she nags - see Book 5, but she doesn't stop - she shows no understanding of him. She's loyal to him, but doesn't understand how he ticks. He continues to use the HBP book, he still doesn't bother with Occlumency...Even that b*tch Ginny (I know we agree there!) handles him better.

I don't think Harry 'always' pulls away from Hermione; sometimes he ignored her, yes, or lied to her about Occlumency, but not ALL the time. Even with the Secumsempra thing Harry acknowledges that Hermione is correct; that's more a case of her nagging him even after he's acquiesced. Again, I don't have the books handy, does Harry make it clear to Hermione that he's accepted her admonishment?

I don't accept that Ginny 'handles him better' at all; at least not without some examples. Ginny's a passive one-dimensional love interest who's there for noogie when Harry wants it but otherwise is dropped when he's concerned with loftier matters - like Voldemort, Hermione, Ron or eating a sandwich. :-) That 'best source of comfort' line is a classic case of Rowling's inability to show, not tell, I'm afraid.

Secondly - didn't she forgive him for scarring her hands by sending those birds at him?

You've lost me on that one, I don't recollect what you're talking about.

Most important, when did Hermione last really cringe in his presence? When did she lose her habitual (over)self-confidence when dealing with him? Or speak nervously as if afraid of how he'll react?

... or as if much more *concerned* on how he'll react? Hermione never treated Ron as anything but a lightweight, or as an object of contempt, someone beneath notice, when it came to matters of philosophy or ethics. Or even worse - I think their completely opposite stances with regard to their agreement with Griphook about the Sword was damning.

Harry, though; Harry she treated much more seriously. Which encompasses those reactions you've mentioned.

JKR did, with the way she wrote a relationship with zero spark between them.

It's hard for me to get enthusiastic about canon's H/Hr these days, given how Rowling proved to be so incompetent and her writing much less worthy of dissecting than what we thought a few years ago. And how badly Harry and Hermione - and Ron, and most certainly Ginny - were written in her desperation to shoehorn them all into their OBHWF jigsaw arrangement.

There was zero spark between Harry and *anyone* up to the end of book 5(other than Cho). I don't accept that 'bitterly fighting and arguing' cancels out one and all of the negatives about R/Hr as it was in the first five books. And yes, H/Hr wasn't perfect either, but Hermione's attitude towards Harry was markedly different from her treatment of Ron, and I think the former was much closer to potential romance - certainly *respect* - than the latter. Unlike Rowling I hold love to be more than kissing and jealousy.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

We're never going to agree! Much as I despise JKR's writing technique in the later books, I can't accept an argument where only Harry or Hermione's behaviour can be excused because of it. If that's the case, it *must* be extended to Ron and the other characters. Likewise, if Ron's character is to blame for his behaviour, and he be deemed unattractive rather than JKR's many failings, than the same goes for the other two. If Ron is to blame for losing his temper at Hermione, she is to blame for her own aggression which unlike his, turns violent. Or indeed, how did you put it? Treating him like a lightweight? I don't agree, but if this is true, what sort of cow treats her long term 'friend' like that? Or is she only close to Ron becasue of Harry? That'd make her a user as well and not 'honestly' like the boys.


---"Hermione's attitude towards Harry was markedly different from her treatment of Ron, and I think the former was much closer to potential romance - certainly *respect* - than the latter. Unlike Rowling I hold love to be more than kissing and jealousy."

Not only do I disagree, but more importantly, there was nothing like that going in the other direction. Harry latterly appreciated her help, but didn't fancy her, and never showed any indication that he wanted to deepen/extend the relationship. I think the latter would be essential to potential romance(and remember, we're not guessing when it comes to Harry - his thoughts are on the page to read)I also think as a teenager, you HAVE to fancy each other as well - 16 is too young to settle just for companionship.


---"Secondly - didn't she forgive him for scarring her hands by sending those birds at him?
You've lost me on that one, I don't recollect what you're talking about."

I was being sarcastic! It was of course Hermione who scarred Ron's hands. You accused adolescent Ron of aggression, yet Hermione is the one who physically attacks him - when she's older,already of age! Marietta might also have comments to make on the difference between someone openly losing their temper and shouting, or someone who coldly premeditates a physical attack. Umbridge/Centaurs was different, but still not Hermione's finest hour...

---"I don't accept that Ginny 'handles him better' at all;"

Believe me - I don't like saying it!What I meant was despite being such a hard faced cow to others, she never nagged at Harry. She was always understanding rather than constantly trying to drive his behaviour. That's what Harry wanted. Hermione nagged Harry throughout the books, never understanding that it was rubbing him up the wrong way and *wouldn't work*. There's no advantage in him admitting she was right about Occlumency/Sectumsempra etc after the fact. At the time, if she was nagging, he ignored her. As I said, she didn't understand how he thought - a major disadvantage in an intimate (I don't mean physical!)relationship.


---"Most important, when did Hermione last really cringe in his presence? When did she lose her habitual (over)self-confidence when dealing with him? Or speak nervously as if afraid of how he'll react?

... or as if much more *concerned* on how he'll react?"

Hermione is never timid with anyone, even her beloved McGonagall. Her character is determined and self-confident. The 'insecurity masked by bossiness' thing had died by Book 3, along with her likeablity. The fact that she seems so nervous of him is out of character. She's not acting herself with him - probably been burnt too many times by his shouting at her when she nags (of course, Harry's shouting at her for annoying him is completely different to Ron's shouting at her). Strange that she nags him loudly day to day, but when it's vital she crumbles.

She should be able to be herself with him when dealing with her old friend. She's not Ginny, who doesn't know him too well. Instead she becomes ineffectual and it DOESN'T WORK. If she'd given Harry half of her usual attitude when he was 'seeing' Sirius, he might not have ignored her, as he usually does when she acts the mouse.

As I said, we're not going to agree - if someone recaps Book 4, we'll have seizures! At least we could bond in Book 5 when Ginny the Magnificent started to rear her fire tressed head...

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

We're never going to agree!

I think we agree on many/most things (and remember, our mutual contempt for Ginny is a bond stronger than steel :-)). I think we're wobbling around, though, and losing track of the topic. Which is - I think - something along the lines of "H/Hr was a more prospective pairing than R/Hr in the early books", yes?

Much as I despise JKR's writing technique in the later books, I can't accept an argument where only Harry or Hermione's behaviour can be excused because of it.

I've tried to be fair in covering the last two books; noting that Hermione had launched her canary attack and so forth.

But to keep things clear we really should restrain ourselves to the first five books, before Rowling contrived her canon pairings. Which is more in line with the PoA review in this blog too.

Most of what you've said here seems to be points attacking Hermione - showing that she's less than perfect, as bad as Ron, etc. Fine. But the events you've raised also favour my argument! Because they all happen when Hermione deals with Ron Weasley!

Like this:

If Ron is to blame for losing his temper at Hermione, she is to blame for her own aggression which unlike his, turns violent.

When Hermione deals with Ron, yes!

what sort of cow treats her long term 'friend' like that?

Or the supposed love of her life? Answer: a girl whose relationship has been written badly; who has been paired with someone who is NOT a good match.

You accused adolescent Ron of aggression, yet Hermione is the one who physically attacks him...

Yep. This is just a horribly bad pairing, full stop; they bring out the worst in each other!

... there was nothing like that going in the other direction. Harry latterly appreciated her help, but didn't fancy her ...

Sure. The only person he fancied in books 1-5 was Cho.

My point/argument basically is this: before book 6, H/Hr was a valid (and attractive (to some)) possible pairing for the series.

Yes, Harry ignored Hermione - romantically - but otherwise he cared for her (as a friend). He completely ignored Ginny.

Going the other way there was a HEAP of attention paid to Harry by Hermione - keeping Harry safe was basically her primary goal in life! - and occasional scenes showing some depth between the two (maybe most in book 5).

So a possible/potential H/Hr, subject to Harry waking up and fancying her/SOMEONE.

And then on the negative side you have R/Hr and the in-your-face badness of that relationship, with all the points you've raised - how Ron made Hermione bitter and aggressive and not very nice.

The fact that she seems so nervous of him is out of character. She's not acting herself with him - probably been burnt too many times by his shouting at her when she nags ...

I think you're going overboard here. I guess this is where we'd have to go over the books looking for specific examples. Most anti-H/Hr fans use book 5 as the proof of Hermione being 'scared' of Harry, but I just don't see it. Nervous when he's in a rage, sure. But that's when all his other friends are cowering even more. (Brave girl, that Hermione.)

I'm not trying to say that H/Hr was obvious and evident and shining like a beacon in the night for books 1-5. I'm saying that - at the very least - it was a valid possibility. And one that looked a whole lot better than R/Hr.

Montavilla said that she thought H/Hr wasn't on the cards because Harry didn't think about her when she was absent. But (a) at that point Harry didn't think about any other girl (other than Cho) that way anyway, (b) that was only the case for book 3, maybe, (c) the Hr -> Harry side was awfully strong, and (d) the competition - R/Hr - was horrible.

So yeah, H/Hr was a definite possibility back then. Requiring a lot less work to renovate/evolve it into a romance than would R/Hr (to be credible).

Maybe the quick rebuttal to Montavilla's original point is simply - so? Harry ignored Ginny, at that stage (book 3) even when she was right in front of him! If Harry was written *later* to mature and finally notice Weasley as an attractive girl ... why not Hermione?

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I meant we're never going to agree about Hermione - this back and forth has made me hate her more! I agree we bond pretty nicely over Ginny, JKRs plot/writing etc.


1. NOTHING I say can be used to compliment Hermione or back up a H/H relationship because I despise the one and don't believe in the other.

2. If JKRs writing is seen as sound in the first 5 books until she started to 'force' her canon ships, Book 5 is when Hermione PLANNED a violent (and permanent) attack on anyone who might cross her. Her emotional outbursts towards Ron were at least honest unlike the sly violence she premeditated towards ANYONE who happen to displease her. Grippenfurher Granger! What I'm saying is that Ron did not bring out the worst in her. That emerged quite cooly BEFORE any provocation.

3. You say that H/H was a valid pairing before Book 6, but I never saw that. If her tetchiness towards Ron is a sign that the relationship was doomed, what about Harry's tetchiness/shouting/lack of interest towards her? She was useful, but not special. Even if she was irreplaceable in the Trio (bearing in mind how bone idle the boys were) she was never irresistable. It'd need to be a 2 way relationship.

4. Yes Harry was interested in Cho for the first 5 books and not Ginny (who I also hate, remember) I saw it this way - he really FANCIED Cho, eventually got to know her a bit better, then lost interest. Though I always saw her point of view to be honest.

5. He didn't fancy Ginny during those years because, as JKR made obvious, he didn't know her until during the fifth year. By the 6th year, when she was a friend rather than Ron's little sister - (she was previously not right in front of him, but always skulking in the background) - he couldn't contol that strange monster in his chest...

6. Harry knew Hermione very well all through the first 5 books, more than any other girl - she WAS right in front of him - and WASN'T INTERESTED. She veered between tiresome nagging and cringing servility and he didn't bite either way. She constantly ran around after him and he took it for granted, indeed resented any attempt to stop supplying the answers and actually tell him what to do/how to behave. Instead he progressed from really fancying a girl he didn't know all that well, to falling in love with a girl he had gotten to know well.

7. No matter how badly Ron/Hermione was written, I've seen enough Doris Day/Rock Hudson films to know what JKR was TRYING to do from the beginning. That's why H/H made no sense to me - JKR was obviously indicating (as best she could, which wasn't very well) that R/H were suffering from tension which became sexual tension. I presumed at first that Harry was going to die (if only). Then it dawned on me during Book 5, with increasing horror, that Ginny was being given the 'I understand you' Harry moments, *just* as she was becoming a right b*tch. The 'understanding what it was like to have Voldemort in your head' alone was a giveaway. He didn't have to explain the worst aspect of his life in Book 5 onwards to her - she just KNEW. Meanwhile Hermione was still nagging him to do his Occlumency and he was ignoring her/shouting at her.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

You got to admit that Cho wasn't ready for a new romance so soon after Cedric's death. I think there was a reason Rowling gave Cho a swan Patronus - to show her undying loyalty to Cedric so H/C shippers just might as well toss in the towel before they even drag it out of the cupboard.

The 'ship I was seeing around the edges of Rowling's preferred was Harry/Luna. She too got those nice "I understand you" lines, such as losing her mother at an early age - she remembers it without any help from Dementors or Boggarts posing as such. She is completely forgiving of people's faults, especially helpful during the Book of Capslock. Harry had issues (that were never dealt with, unfortunately) - Luna had the patience to wait and she has a temperament that overlooks the occasional outburst.

I saw, though, that Rowling was heading toward H/G. I didn't care for it and hoped it would be kept off-page as much as possible but I saw it coming. Ginny was such a chameleon, changing from book to book, that she would be whatever Harry ended up needing in a wife in the Potterverse according to Rowling. He could have gone in any direction and, as in the Sectum Sempra incident, Ginny would have said it was fine.

Reminds me of the old fairy tale of the Perfect Wife - guy makes a bet with a stranger he meets on the road that his wife will accept anything he does. He goes home, stranger lurks below the window, and the guy proceeds to tell his wife a string of odd and sometimes stupid things he did while he was out. Each time she tells him something like, "Oh, we didn't need milk and eggs anyway, we should eat more fruit" if, for instance, he threw the milk and eggs over a precipice. That's how Ginny struck me - Silly Putty.

I do see where MadderBrad thinks that H/Hr could have been possible during the first few books. She's the heroine, he's the hero, they're not up to dating age quite yet (did Harry ever get that far?) and it's almost obligatory to marry off the hero and the principle female lead.

The major problem with that is that it cuts Ron out of the picture since he can't marry his sister (I don't know, maybe in the WW... thinking of the Gaunts here...) and Ginny's been set up from SS/PS as a distant fourth, the tag-along, the best friend's sister who suddenly grew a pair... I mean, grew up. R/Luna wouldn't have had the trio nearly as close as adults and for some strange reason, BFFs from sixth grade/first year must remain just as close as adults in this world. Then, there was Ginny's brush with possession, faintly mirroring the Harry-crux - she even got to speak Parceltongue.

You know, though, none of the principles were ready for long-term relationships at the close of the series. They all had maturity issues to contend with. I guess it's because the whole series was just a revenge fantasy on the Doyle level so they had to remain stuck in school.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

Harry/Luna? Yes! I've said in a previous re-cap that her understanding nature combined with being an outsider, just like Harry always felt, should have been like cat-nip to him. I'd have been totally convinced (and much happier) if they'd got together. Sadly I could see, just like you, that JKR was putting Ginny in positions where she'd be able to be just right for Harry. Silly Putty - love it! It was blatantly what JKR was planning. Yuck.

The hero/heroine ending up together (if you see either of them as a hero/heroine...) is so unimaginative/fan-fic/Hollywood. You're right, it is almost obligatory, but that's not a good thing. Early JKR was better than that (though not towards the end.) However I don't argue against H/H because Ron would end up alone - why should he? The Wizarding World isn't THAT small! Ignoring his own sister (!), Ron is too realistic and unsentimental to suit Luna, so why not spend the next 5 years as a single Auror enjoying himself. Then meet a nice, pretty, non-pschopath and settle down happily? He's hardly a favourite of mine, but I don't think Hermione Umbridge is good enough for him;I'd love him to end up with a nicer person. However R/H, no matter what we might think of it was obviously being foreshadowed early on. The rest was rubbish - I did hate all the pairing off. Remus/Tonks my arse!

[oryx_leucoryx]

If you guys don't mind me butting in, the shipping argument has at least 3 aspects: figuring out Rowling's intent, critique of how she carried her pairings out and discussing the 'actual' compatibility of characters to each other. Now that the story is over the first 2 overlap - now that we know for certain whom Rowling was shipping with whom we know what in her writing was meant to be an indication for suitability, budding romantic interest etc. We may disagree that those are indicators for a successful relationship in the future. We might think there are signs that some other combination of characters would result in better long term relationships. Heck, we can be subversive enough as to read the epilogue in such a way that Hermione and Ron never married or are no longer married to each other (no luck with Harry and Ginny - the text refers to the family as the five Potters at some point). Or we can decide that both couples are headed towards breakup shortly after the epilogue. But for the sake of everyone's mental health let's keep the discussion of 'who would do better with whom' separate from 'who Rowling thinks should be with whom'.

I don't like Rowling's ideas of romance and compatibility. I don't like her ideas of how being paired off apparently changes people (Fleur the housewife? Tonks the telenovella character?). Shrug.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I don't know if the three subjects could be completely separate. The first two, now that canon's done as you say, are welded together. The third, sure, could be discussed without referencing canon pairings but to get really into it we would need to see who the characters actually ended up with and bounce off of that a little, too. There's the whole issue of personality, actions, clues and hints to compatibility, and they all come from canon. To look at pairings, too, one would need to reference other possible objects of affection. I suppose we could go off-books for this (Harry/Willow?) but for sure everyone here knows the other characters in HP canon to some extent.

Discussing the first two, too, necessitates looking at the pairings and other possibilities within canon. For that we can't go off-books, at least not seriously. Can you imagine someone suggesting Hermione/Jack Torrence in a canon discussion? Though, she probably would have handled the axe to the door a lot better than the actual Mrs Torrence - she has a wand.

And, not that I could tell you to butt out anyway. I'm new to this discussion, too. ;) So... anyone for Hermione/Jack? Grangence? Jack-Her?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

(no luck with Harry and Ginny - the text refers to the family as the five Potters at some point)

Well, they might be divorced, if Ginny kept the name "Potter."

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Eh. The biggest problem, seems to me, is that Rowling can't stick to one thing and carry it through to the end. You can always trust her to get what looks to her like a bright idea at the moment, bung it in whether it fits or not, and spoil the trajectory.

It was pretty clear to me in the early books that Hermione was never *intended* to be a heroine. She was comic relief. Very *useful* comic relief. But back then Ron also came up with a few comments that set Harry on the right track, too. To me Rowling was obviously pairing off the two (part time) clowns. And probably going tp go with the standard formula of "give the girl the boy she wants" and pair Harry off with Ginny.

She was popular with the readers, however, so Rowling bunged in the Cinderella surprise in GoF, which wasn't necessary, and wasn't even a triumph that lasted out the evening. But it no doubt looked like a good idea at the time. In retrospect she should have probably resisted the impulse and let Hermione go to the ball with someone else. Ron could have been just as much of a jealous twit over Anthony Goldstein, or Justin Finch-Fletchly, although then she would have had to come up with a way to get rid of him, rather than have him conveniently go back overseas where he belonged.

And then once Warners got hold of it *they* started ramping Hermione up as a heroine, and Rowling hadn't either the nerve or the sense to tell them to put a sock in it.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I always felt that Emma Watson was miscast as Hermione. She's about as far from comic relief as you can get. I read a quote from someone (and it wasn't even Kloves!) who said that Emma just blew them away with her.... something or other. Charm. Intelligence. Emotional power. Something. So, they "had" to cast her.

So, (in the narrative in my mind), they sacrificed the book character for the sake of an extraordinary little girl, and began tweaking the character to fit the actor. Eventually, JKR did a bit of that (although I think she didn't go nearly as far as the films have.)

I think it must have been a hard role to cast. It's easier to find a little girl who can blow you away emotionally than it is to find one who can be adorable, funny, and infuriatingly bossy at the same time. But I'll bet she was out there.

Just not as pretty.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, canon does make it explicit that James and Al are the sons of both Harry and Ginny, and Ginny says 'we wrote to James three times a week last year' - so it is hard to read them as not being together at that point. But Hermione and Ron? All we have is Ron's threat to disinherit Rose and saying she got her brains from her mother. One can argue Rose and Hugo are the children of Hermione and someone else and Ron is their uncle (if she is married to Percy) or godfather (if she is married to someone else) and he was just giving them a ride to the station. Alternately, Rose and Hugo could be the children of Ron and some other woman and Hermione could be their godmother or honorary aunt who accompanied them to the station. The missing parent could be somewhere in the fog or unavailable for some reason.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

Then I'll have to drop out - I'm NOT a shipper! I'm not convinced any of the pairings are anything special. I can only discuss what I think I saw. Ron and Harry were the only ones who had similar enough attitudes and enough in common to sustain a relationship (I don't mean that way) Luna and Harry could work, but I like Luna too much.

I argue with Madderbrad until the cows come home, because I hate Hermione as an individual - regardless of who she does or doesn't belong with. It's fun!

I actually liked Fleur the fierce 'Code Breaker' and 'Bringing the Batchelor to his knees -er' She also wound up Ginny, so she was even more attractive. I also loved Tonks. Originally. I was not best pleased with the way they were handled. There's no reason why Fleur couldn't go back to her work after Harry got his sandwich in DH, she was hella cool under pressure in the rest of the book, but there's no redemption for Tonks. I'd understand if her power got out of control when she was emotional, but losing it completely? I just tell myself that she CHOSE not to keep changing her looks, because she wasn't in the mood, which is fair enough. However I have no answer for her dramatic arguing with a very unkeen Remus over Bill's hospital bed. Sigh. Honestly, every time JKR sprinkled her 'magic' on a character (pun intended) they were doomed...

Also, please do butt in - it's not a private discussion, the more the merrier!

[oryx_leucoryx]

I argue with Madderbrad until the cows come home, because I hate Hermione as an individual - regardless of who she does or doesn't belong with. It's fun!

Hermione was becoming a very problematic character for me from around OOTP, though looking back she had been heading in that direction since the night of the troll. I was hoping that in DH one of her questionable schemes would go horribly wrong and she would have to face the consequences and learn some lessons about morality, responsibility, limits of using one's power, the ends not justifying all available means etc, but then we were given the mind-wipe and I realized Rowling didn't see any of Hermione's wrongs that way at all. I think a character like Percy or Severus, someone who dealt with consequences of one's acts (in Severus' case he should have known better at the time, in Percy's case he had good reason to think he was right but repentance was real for both of them) had the ability to bring her to learn some of those lessons, if she ever got close to one of them. Maybe even Draco (depending how far his own repentance went). And one can make an argument that Draco taunted Hermione because he was crushing on her but felt guilty over it. Severus did mention to Bellatrix that Harry had 'more talented friends', and Hermione was jealous of teenage Severus' work. She also dated Viktor who looks like teenage Severus (why else is Viktor described in the very same words as Severus?). Also, Hermione is in a way an improved version of Lily, because she is genuinely and fiercely loyal to her chosen friends. So there's material for building a story of post-war romance which includes character growth and healing for both sides.

I'm with you completely on Tonks.

Luna and Harry - Luna understands where Harry is coming from, but as opposed to Ginny she doesn't approve of cruelty, so I can see Luna as someone who can steer Harry to better self-knowledge and becoming a more balanced and less aggressive person. I'm not sure what Harry has to offer Luna though.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Ignoring his own sister (!), Ron is too realistic and unsentimental to suit Luna, so why not spend the next 5 years as a single Auror enjoying himself. Then meet a nice, pretty, non-pschopath and settle down happily? He's hardly a favourite of mine, but I don't think Hermione Umbridge is good enough for him;I'd love him to end up with a nicer person.

I agree, although there were hints in OotP that Luna might have been a candidate to be the distraction that Lavender was in HBP. Luna seemed to be crushing on Ron at first, what with the lion hat and all.

It was Drop Dead Gorgeous that sold me on the idea of Pansy/Ron. But that Pansy isn't necessarily anything like the Pansy of canon (who is almost as much a cypher as Astoria!)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I do see where MadderBrad thinks that H/Hr could have been possible during the first few books. She's the heroine, he's the hero, they're not up to dating age quite yet (did Harry ever get that far?) and it's almost obligatory to marry off the hero and the principle female lead.

Yes, there's nothing greatly original in the H/Hr setup. I never saw it as 'hero/heroine', though - although yes, if there is anyone worthy of the title it's our girl Hermione! - but more 'hero and best friend'. Which is a very popular and common trope, but the 'marries the sister of his best friend' is even more hackneyed, in my opinion.

The major problem with that is that it cuts Ron out of the picture since he can't marry his sister --

So what? This is one of the things about Rowling's OBHWF which 'offends' me. She needed Ron to marry someone, it couldn't be Ginny, so he therefore gave him Hermione. But in doing so she also made absolutely certain that Ron had absolutely NO COMPETITION. Hermione was never interested in any other boy. She unaccountably sat around, passively waiting for Won Won to wake up, for years. Harry never ever EVER had even a single solitary thought of Hermione, his distaff best friend, in a romantic context. Never. The only time it's ever approached is in book 7 - the very last book - where he suddenly tells Ron that she's "like a sister" to him, and that he, Ron, has a clear passage.

Wow, Ron! You're so LUCKY! She's just sitting there waiting for you! Hermione isn't going anywhere! She'll wait for you to grow up, and Harry won't compete with you!

The sheer artificial *convenience* of the OBHWF jigsaw - everyone in their square, no intersections, Harry suddenly attracted to Ginny, good, all the pieces accounted for - is horrible in its blatant simplicity.

Working out the odds on H/Hr should never have had to consider the 'what about Ron?' question. Real people aren't like that. Harry's romantic attraction to Hermione should have had nothing to do with "but what about Ron?". (Only what he did about that attraction.)

But with Rowling at the helm we could all see the puppet strings. Harry wasn't allowed to link up with Hermione because his author wrote him that way. Just because.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Working out the odds on H/Hr should never have had to consider the 'what about Ron?' question. Real people aren't like that.

Real people also don't always marry their high school sweethearts, either, but it seems almost universal (almost) in the Potterverse. This is a fiction story so the extraneous things should be left out. As part of a trio in a work of fiction, Ron matters. In an older type of BFF story, the trio would all be boys or girls, there would be a matching trio of either BFFs or rivals in some way to complement them. IMO, Rowling's most innovative thing in the entire series was throwing a girl into what starts out as a male clique. Notice I didn't say "unique." Throwing Hermione in instead of Herman (or Neville or Draco or Dean or Seamus...) means that only one of the boys has to have her. The big 'Ship Question is, which one?

So, Ron matters just because this isn't Real Life and these aren't Real People. Supposedly all of the Toms, Dicks and other Harrys have been thrown out to unclutter the reader's experience. Hermione's True Love must be someone we've seen in the series. Her status as lead female directs us to the lead males, Harry and Ron. Without a Ginny conveniently born after several generations of no blood Weasley females, either Harry will be left out or Ron will. Rowling could go the Friends Forever route - neither Harry nor Ron gets the girl because they don't want something like that to ruin their friendship but that leaves Hermione out in the cold. That can't be done, it isn't tidy. So, Harry or Ron?

With Ginny thrown in it's obvious - Ron gets Hermione, pairing the two supporting leads, while Harry gets the girl he rescued and, incidentally, the first potential mate material he meets in the series. The friendship with Ron is reinforced through ties by marriage; those ties are doubly reinforced with Hermione marrying Ron. They are now closer than ever through in-law-hood, they are all now either mate or sibling-in-law.

I think the shipping was a minor draw. I really didn't care to see who they ended up with, how many kids they had, what they named them. It's perfectly all right to leave the teens as unattached teens and let the readers ship who they want. I could have gone with Harry in the Archie role - Ginny/Betty or Hermione/Veronica? And, at least in shipping, Ron as Reggie (which is why I assigned Ginny to Betty - maybe she's more Alexandra, on a nastier level). They never do resolve that one in the comics and people have been hanging on for decades. I really do wish Rowling would have gone that direction.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

This is a neat explanation of the cute and convenient OBHWF plan that Rowling wrote, but it doesn't rule out any of the other permutations. You have multiple decision points along the way - Ron matters (!), Hermione's True Love must be someone we've seen in the series (unlike Luna's Rolf!), could go the BFF route, must be tidy, OBHWF is 'obvious' and so forth - all of which are subjective measurements and could have been decided another way.

To me Hermione's character outshines that of Ginny *considerably*. And the R/Hr is repugnant. Add in the draws of the 'marries best friend' trope, some hints of the H/Hr closeness and so forth, and, for me, H/Hr would have been the best way to go.

What you've outlined here is just another possible path, which doesn't invalidate H/Hr at all. Certainly not back in the early books.

As to the "what about Ron" thing, he could have easily been mated with Luna. People seem to forget about her, thinking Ginny was the only other prominent girl around, and thus, to avoid incest, OBHWF was mandated. That just wasn't so. Luna had as much screen time as dear Ginny; I think there were even hints of Ron liking her, her growing on him (I wonder if Rowling did that deliberately? No, not possible, R/Hr was signposted with 'anvils' according to her.)

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

The best path, IMO, would not to have introduced who married whom. Ron/Luna didn't work for me, in fact I thought Harry/Luna would have been better (see other posts). But, again, the best path would have been to leave it to the readers' imaginations.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

We're not supposed to be talking about Hermione, specifically, but about Montavilla's comment (this ongoing exchange is all her fault!) that H/Hr was never on the cards because it was a case of 'out of sight, out of mind' for Harry with regard to her. So I'm not going to address your disparagement of Hermione where it doesn't relate to Harry.

What Montavilla said was this:

... this is one of the reasons I (instinctively) knew that Harry/Hermione was a no go. Ron was always interested in what Hermione was up to, even if he was really mad at her. Harry barely remember she existed when she was out of sight.

Harry 'barely remembered' Hermione when she was out of sight. But he *completely* forgot about Ginny, not only when she was out of sight, but even when she was in plain view! Yet Ginny became Mrs. Potter in the end. Thus, clearly, Montavilla's metric - measuring the suitability of prospective partners by Harry's focus on them, 'out of sight' or not - simply didn't work for the way Rowling wrote the series.

It's like if Montavilla had said "I knew Harry wouldn't fall for Hermione, because Hermione is a Gryffindor, and Harry only liked Ravenclaws". But, in the end, he ended up with Ginny, so we know this 'Montavilla rule' was false from the start.

Okay, a clumsy example, but I hope you understand my meaning. Montavilla's intuition - her rule that "Harry won't end up with someone he ignored so much" - obviously didn't hold true in the series. It didn't hold true for Ginny. So we can't use it to prohibit the possibility for Hermione, back in book #3.

Your points #5 & #6 are the ones which are most relevant to this "why Montavilla wasn't fair to that wonderful girl and heroine HERMIONE GRANGER" discussion :-) but they don't hold water. Harry most definitely knew Ginny, going way back to book #2. Shucks, he risked his life to save her! Yet he completely and totally ignored her! She was in the common room day after day, night after night, but she was always, totally, absent in his mind. He didn't think of her for the Yule ball. He forgot that she was possessed!! So the 'Montavilla metric' just fails the H/G test.

And sure, re your point #6, Harry wasn't interested in Hermione for the first 5 books ... but he wasn't interested in Ginny either. But that didn't stop Rowling in the slightest.

No, in the world of Rowling, Montavilla's "Harry ignored the girl in books 1-5" obviously held no weight at all. And so that can't be used to deny the possibility of a pre-book-6 H/Hr pairing.

Now ... if we were to change the context of the HP series, and the topic of our debate, like this:

Assuming that Rowling was a good writer and wrote her characters consistently and believably ... would Montavilla's point be valid in such new circumstances?

H/G would never have happened, and I'd be sitting here bringing up all the positive H/Hr indicators which outweighed Harry's early self-centred attitude, trying to show how the seeds of H/Hr were still there. And a lot of your points would be relevant. And my job would be harder.

But - in hindsight, knowing what Rowling wrote - we know that Montavilla's indication that H/Hr wasn't on the cards just wasn't valid. Because Rowling ignored that exact same indicator in setting up her precious H/G.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I took Montavilla's statement a little different. That is, I didn't think she meant Harry wouldn't hook up with Hermione because he couldn't be with somebody he ignored. I thought she was looking at tropes. Harry is very close friends with Hermione. So if JKR was going in the direction of having them being true love as well she'd have probably been writing their whole relationship with that in mind and Harry would have a slightly different way of relating to Hermione from the beginning. As Ron actually does. Even in their first scene together Hermione makes more of an impression on Ron and it's Ron who gets emotional reactions from her. JKR didn't know she would get to write a whole series then, but regardless I think she had in her mind an idea for the way the dynamics worked.

With Ginny Harry's ignoring of her is part of the trope. Ginny's the girl who crushes on him when Harry's just embarassed, so that Harry can literally say "Who is THAT?" when she reappears with boobs more mature when he's ready for romance.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So if JKR was going in the direction of having them being true love as well she'd have probably been writing their whole relationship with that in mind and Harry would have a slightly different way of relating to Hermione from the beginning.

I don't get that at all. Pre-pubescent boy has best friend who is a girl, treats her like a best friend. Boy becomes an adolescent, sees her in a new way, treats her a new way. Nothing inconsistent with pre-book-6 H/Hr there.

Yes, Ron saw Hermione in a different way, true, but it was all negative, so that impedes the whole R/Hr case IMO. Of course that's the crux of R/Hr; fans who (a) believe in that 'fighting means attraction' trope, and (b) believe that outweighs every other facet of the relationship - which is all bad - no common interests, no respect for the other, you've read it all before - have no problem with R/Hr.

But I couldn't accept R/Hr and so I can't see how Harry's not relating to Hermione like Ron implies that H/Hr was never on the cards.

With Ginny Harry's ignoring of her is part of the trope.

Sure, that fits into the "suddenly fancying the best friend's sister who's suddenly become hot" trope. But Harry's ignoring Ginny didn't mandate his falling for the redhead. Harry ignored a lot of girls. Montavilla says he ignored Hermione (in that way). The candidacy of the "marrying best friend's sister" trope back in book 3 didn't invalidate the potential of the "marrying best friend" trope. And the 'ignoring the girl in a romantic context until he suddenly does' thing would have worked for H/anyone, really. It was only H/Cho that was telegraphed from a long way off.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm confused about what exactly "the case" is here. That is, what does it mean to say that it was or wasn't in the cards? Are you arguing that JKR actually really did intend to write H/Hr at some point and then changed her mind?

Because yeah, if JKR had wanted to write H/Hr she could have done that. Some people saw her going R/Hr early on, and she did go that way and she seemed to imply that's the way she was going in interviews as well. It's not that JKR couldn't write H/Hr because she hadn't set up the right trope. Of course he could have suddenly noticed Hermione that way (particularly when living alone with her in a tent for weeks on end), I just don't think she ever planned to do that.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Are you arguing that JKR actually really did intend to write H/Hr at some point and then changed her mind?

No. This all started with Montavilla saying that Harry's not noticing Hermione was "one of the reasons I (instinctively) knew that Harry/Hermione was a no go. Ron was always interested in what Hermione was up to, even if he was really mad at her. Harry barely remember she existed when she was out of sight."

She's saying that, back then, with book 3, when no-one knew how the series would turn out and (as far as I recall) Rowling hadn't even started telling people how to read and interpret the material, Montavilla "knew that H/Hr was a no go". Because of Harry's ignoring Hermione when she was 'out of sight'.

I'm saying that Harry's ignoring her wasn't valid grounds at all for denying the possibility of H/Hr back then.

Because yeah, if JKR had wanted to write H/Hr she could have done that. ... It's not that JKR couldn't write H/Hr because she hadn't set up the right trope. Of course he could have suddenly noticed Hermione that way ...

We are in agreement!

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Yeah, umm... hey! I wasn't making an ignore=never in a million years will hook up with rule!

As Sistermagpie put it: I was looking at how these things usually go in fiction.

Here's an example: Little Women. Laurie and Jo are friends. Really good friends. But Jo never thinks about Laurie as a boy friend (until she gets depressed in her mid-twenties and she's already rejected him). Likewise, Harry never thinks about Hermione as a girl friend, even though they are very good friends.

Jo has a little sister, Amy, who is roughly five years younger than Jo and Laurie. She's ten when the book starts, and it would be inappropriate for anyone to be looking at her as a sexual partner. Therefore, Laurie doesn't see her as anything but Jo's little sister for about eight years. He does have a wonderful scene with her when she's ten or eleven and he does rescue her at least once. But it isn't until she's eighteen that he suddenly sees her as a woman and falls in love with her.

It's very similar with Harry and Ginny. She's just Ron's little sister to him until she's old to be thought of as girl friend material and Cho's out of the way, and then--BAM! She's all that.

Now, yes, there's nothing to say that a boy and girl who are friends before they start thinking about dating can't turn into sweethearts. I've read that story, too. Many times. But there's usually more foreshadowing of proto-romance in those cases. A moment or two when the hero (or heroine) acknowledges that they'd rather spend time with Hermione/Harry than anyone else.

In Harry's case, it was made clear that he'd rather spend time with Ron--even when he thought Ron was being unreasonable towards Hermione in PoA.

Until I found the fandom just before HBP came out, it never occurred to me for a single moment that Harry and Hermione would become a couple. It was quite clear to me that Ron and Hermione were attracted to each other. And the big, big anvil? The fight in GoF after the Yule Ball.

Hermione was pissed to the point of tears that Ron didn't ask her to the ball. She didn't care at all that Harry didn't. Even Harry knew it was Ron/Hermione at that point.

Not that he cared.