GOF Chapter 3: The Invitation

[oryx_leucoryx]

This is the obligatory Dursley chapter, in which we are treated to the home life of this family and learn how inferior they are to wizard families.

Dudley takes up a whole side of the square kitchen table. Ahem, I doubt a square kitchen table (as opposed to a dining room table) was designed to seat 8 people, 2 on a side. His parents excuse away his teachers' accusations of bullying. As opposed to the Weasleys who never receive reports making such heinous accusations against the twins (we'll see the school does occasionally owl their parents, but I don't see any awareness that some of what the twins do is bullying behavior). (This starts the theme of parents dealing with wayward sons in this book.) Dudley is forced into a diet of fruit and vegetables rather than his favorites. From the descriptions we get of the food Harry eats at Hogwarts I get the feeling Harry's favorites are closer to Dudley's than to the health foods, nor does he limit his intake. But somehow Harry remains thin, regardless of whether he gets starved by Petunia or stuffed by Molly or the House-elves.

Changing the food choices of the entire family is a good thing! However adjusting Harry's serving size to Dudley's (perceived?) emotional needs isn't. I don't begrudge Harry for working around a diet he doesn't need, but then I also sympathize with Dudley who does. Changing eating habits of years is hard.
This is also the place to say Dudley must have grown up as an emotional wreck. Knowing that his parents were capable of such physical and emotional deprivation of someone in their care - what if he ever failed to please them? I think a big part of his misbehavior is both making sure his parents know he *isn't* Harry as well as wanting the reassurance that they still love him, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Of Harry's 4 sources of help only one sends food he appreciates. Odd that even Hagrid managed to send an edible birthday cake. But how edible is it (or any of the others) 3 weeks later?

Harry is surprised that the Weasleys wrote directly to the Dursleys. Vernon is embarrassed that they didn't know how many stamps to use. But really, how hard is it to find out? Didn't they go to the post office to buy the stamps? What does it say about the exchange rate between Galleons and pounds that a family so poor finds it reasonable to spend on so many stamps for one letter? Molly's letter sounds as if she is trying too hard to make the Quidditch World Cup sound special and to make Arthur sound important. And of course she doesn't have enough imagination to realize that sending a letter by owl isn't normal for the Dursleys.

Harry is offended on Molly's behalf when Vernon calls her 'dumpy'. Since Molly likes Harry nobody is allowed to notice she is overweight.

I must say that the scene where Harry threatens Vernon with Sirius looks a lot less humorous now that I have seen Harry enjoy torturing a man for punishment, and Sirius engaging in Muggle-baiting.

If I am correct in my understanding that Ron is claiming that he and Molly wrote their respective letters at about the same time, then I am impressed with the UK post. Molly's letter arrived on Saturday morning. Pig arrived the same morning. Considering the speed of owls elsewhere, it looks as though Ron's letter was sent earlier that morning. So a letter got delivered the morning it was sent?

I am less impressed with the Weasleys. They plan on taking Harry regardless of the Dursleys' consent. One could argue that eventually Molly and Arthur realized their sons were not exaggerating when they said Harry had been imprisoned and starved, but seeing how Arthur views the treatment of Muggles, both in this book and in COS, I doubt this made a difference.

Harry is happy specifically because Dudley is suffering and he isn't. The seeds of the bully of HBP and war criminal of DH.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I know that, back when dinosaurs roamed and I was in regular school, we got textbook loaners from the school for every class. Sometimes there would be notes in them. We were cautioned by the teachers not to pay attention to those notes.

That's totally different from my own schooling, nothing was ever said along those lines.

And in any case, what does it matter? Because --

They may be right but, then, they may not be.

And if you use the notes you takes your chances. Harry took a chance and it paid off for him; the notes were correct.

If the teacher wanted you to use a particular formula he or she had been teaching in the class ...

Then I would be 'cheating' if I used another.

But Slughorn says nothing like this, he has no such rule. In fact he takes pleasure in noting Harry's (the Prince's) additions to the textbook procedure. You see? Slughorn *acknowledges* that Harry's using 'non-standard' practices, but he's still graded top marks. I.e. he is not 'cheating'!

But going to Slughorn would have removed the stench of cheating.

The 'stench' is that of Harry accepting praise, allowing Slughorn to think that he's a Potions genius. Naughty Harry. But he's still brewing good potions ... so he should still get good marks.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Whether Harry was cheating or not, the important thing was that he wasn't actually learning - he couldn't work at that level on his own, he didn't understand why the Prince modified the potions the way he did. That he got better grades than his true knowledge allows isn't all that important in the long run, because internal Hogwarts grades count for nothing, only OWLs and NEWTs count outside Hogwarts (well, and ties and reputation etc). At an exam setting he wouldn't be able to use the Prince's work.

Of course Harry supposedly got invited to join the Aurors despite not having NEWT-level knowledge in most of the required subjects. I think his experience should count towards the DADA NEWT, but his knowledge in the other subjects remained 6th year level for most of them and 5th year level for Potions.

Ron is ahead of him - the Transfigured ghoul could count as a NEWT-level Transfiguration project. But most of the Charms and Transfiguration work the trio needed that year was done by Hermione. As well as any theoretical knowledge they needed.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Whether Harry was cheating or not, the important thing was that he wasn't actually learning - he couldn't work at that level on his own, he didn't understand why the Prince modified the potions the way he did. That he got better grades than his true knowledge allows isn't all that important in the long run, because internal Hogwarts grades count for nothing, only OWLs and NEWTs count outside Hogwarts (well, and ties and reputation etc). At an exam setting he wouldn't be able to use the Prince's work.

I totally agree. The discussion/topic to date in this thread has been about whether Harry was technically 'cheating' in his sixth year Potions class. If we put that issue aside then it's as you say above.

Of course Harry supposedly got invited to join the Aurors despite not having NEWT-level knowledge in most of the required subjects. I think his experience should count towards the DADA NEWT --

Yes, he was appointed to the aurors because he knows the Expelliarmus spell really reallly REALLY well ... *snort*

Ron is ahead of him - the Transfigured ghoul could count as a NEWT-level Transfiguration project.

Interesting; I always thought that the ghoul masquerade was a bit of a farce. And how good did it have to be if the impersonation was based on the hope that no-one would dare approach it?

I was going to finish with a joke along the lines of if the ghoul's transfiguration was REALLY important then Hermione would have done it! but then I noticed that the canon doesn't attribute the transfiguration to Ron:

"And your mum and dad are in on this plan?" asked Harry.

"Dad is. He helped Fred and George transform the ghoul. ..."

[oryx_leucoryx]

So Ron had no part in the ghoul project except possibly as a model? OK, he is down to DADA only as well.

I'm willing to accept Hermione did NEWT-level work in DADA (fighting, campsite defenses, researching Horcruxes and how to destroy them, memory charms), Charms (all they needed for daily living, that TARDIS bag of hers) and Transfiguration (disguises of the boys for the Gringotts break-in, transfiguration of food to make it edible). She may have at least theoretical knowledge of the 7th year curriculum of her other subjects. But of course she is the one who completes her education and sits exams properly rather than coast on fame.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Yes, he was appointed to the aurors because he knows the Expelliarmus spell really reallly REALLY well ... *snort*


Well, I have a relevant RL example. When I was about 11 I took Judo. Got to participate in some local competitions - nothing great, just kids from several clubs in town. In one of the other clubs there was this kid who perfected the use of the most basic throw, the first one that is taught. He managed to beat kids who were formally more advanced than him while using this one throw all the time - because he knew how to do it from any position, on any size of opponent etc.

If Harry can disarm any would-be attacker before he gets hit by a spell it doesn't matter what advanced spell his attacker was going to send his way. Unless of course, the attacker has more than one wand.

Harry is also good at Shield Charms and stunning, and I bet he finally learned Finite to end spells he may have been hit with. Though he sucks at non-verbal spells.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Argh!! He is *plagiarizing*!!! Does that word make you happier than 'cheating'?! If you plucked a former students essay from the internet, printed it out and handed it in, claiming it as your own work, you'd be *plagiarizing*, which is considered *cheating* in the academic world, and any school or university would *expell* you for it!!

I think that one of the reasons why some people don't see Harry's use of the Prince's book as plagiarizing is that plagiarism is usually discussed in the context of papers.

And writing papers isn't like brewing potions.

With papers, there's no such thing as following a formula verbatim, *just* following instructions, and getting anything acceptable (unless you plagiarize). There's *always* something original about a (non-plagiarized) paper.

That isn't true of brewing potions, though. Admittedly, in the NEWT class it appears that the students are encouraged to go further than following instructions, but Potions class isn't all about being original. For years, Potions class was about following directions in order to produce an expected result, and that was a useful, desirable thing to do. It's worth something, in class and in the outside world, to be able to follow directions ploddingly and produce potions that work.

There's nothing like that when it comes to writing, unless you're talking about photocopiers. There's no skill to writing letters on paper -- not for teenagers, anyway; we aren't talking about calligraphy. In Potions, there is a skill to even following directions. Harry did a lousy job of following directions well for years.

Even in the NEWT class, originality isn't *demanded*, although it's applauded. Hermione isn't original, and Slughorn approves of her work.

So, I don't think that the "copied paper" metaphor is helping, here.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about why some people see this as cheating and some don't. We usually think of papers when we think of plagiarizing (it may be that the word itself indicates writing) but, in the broader sense of intellectual property, Harry used someone else's. The Oxford English Dictionary (yes, I will use any excuse to access it while I still can! I love the OED) says that 'plagiarize' was originally considered only for writing but has expanded to include thoughts, writings, inventions, literary output and ideas of another person "improperly or without acknowledgement." So one component of the debate may be the changing use of the word itself and the "feel" that goes along with usage.

For 'cheating' I found several definitions for the verb form. To defraud, to deprive by deceit, to impose upon, to trick, to deal fraudulently, to practice deceit, etc. It's related to 'escheat,' where an estate reverts to the state or crown if an owner dies intestate and without qualified heirs. Odd how words change in meaning over the years.

I think Harry cheated because he 'deprived' another student by deceiving Slughorn into thinking the improvements were his; because he dealt fraudulently with Slughorn as well as with the other students who were vying for the Felix in that particular case; because he deliberately hid the Prince's notes from Slughorn after the contest; he used Snape's ideas without acknowledgement. He took unfair advantage of the Prince's notes in regards to his classmates since he was the only one with access to them and he did not make them available to anyone other than Ron and Hermione. Evidently, everybody's mileage varies to one extent or another.

It would be interesting to get the take of someone in the sciences as to whether this might be considered cheating (or plagiarizing) in that world, since Potions seems to take the place of a Muggle school's science class.

On the issue of Advanced Potions going beyond the earlier classes, I think the impetus to be more original or creative is building on the essays the students were assigned, like the several uses of Moonstone that was assigned in one of the books and a few others that I can't remember now (I was reading Wilkie Collins's Moonstone when I read that assignment in HP so I remember the subject, at least.) The essays and homework papers were all about how various ingredients interacted with one another, what their uses might be in a potion, more theoretical things which would, of course, be used in the advanced course.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

It's also plagiarism to take credit for another person's *original scientific research.* In all academic disciplines one is expected to cite where one accessed material developed by others.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

To follow up on that:

I don't think that Harry, in that first class, is necessarily thinking about taking credit for a different process, just the actual production of the potion. That's what he's used to in previous years of Potions.

At the end of class, though, Slughorn attributes Harry's superb potion to natural talent. Well, Harry might take that as just a random comment, that day. It becomes clear, though, that Slughorn *is* taking Harry's good results as being all about Harry's talent, and not about different instructions, or even honest research.

Harry was absolutely honor-bound to correct Slughorn's misunderstanding the moment he realized that Slughorn misunderstood the situation. In that very first class, though... (shrug) He still should have said something, but he was presumably in the mindset he'd been in for years, where independent thought wasn't expected in brewing. Slughorn didn't suggest that anyone think for themselves, either, so he didn't do anything to indicate that expectations had changed. The contest that first day makes this more of an issue, but I find Harry's behavior more excusable that day than later, despite it.

Although... if you can find a place in the first five books where independent thought *is* expected in Potions, I will have to seriously reconsider all of this.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Lynn Waterfall has very nicely articulated much of what I was going to say. Your 'essay' analogy isn't a good mapping to what the students do much/most of their time in Hogwarts Potions classes.

If Slughorn said "write a paper" and Harry quoted the Prince's notes verbatim without attributing the source then that would be out-and-out cheating. His grade would be measured on the required output - the paper - which would be literally the Prince's work.

But brewing potions is quite different from that. It's a practical exercise. The students aren't graded on papers, or instructions on how to brew potions, or their knowledge of theory. No, it's a practical test/subject and they submit their brewed potions for grading. As Lynn Waterfall has said, much of that - almost all, in my opinion from reading the books - is "following directions in order to produce an expected result", to quote Lynn.

I see Potions as something like the woodwork subject I took at High School. I did very badly at that. :-( But if I'd picked up some notes on how to saw wood better, make joints smoother, etc, then it would follow that my grade would have improved ... because we were scored on the quality of the tangible end result. The teachers would NEVER had said "oh, Brad, sorry, I saw you using a technique to saw the plank which I didn't teach you, so I'll dock you points".

Look at it another way, by virtue of a little thought experiment. If Hermione had come up with a textbook from the library which had superior instructions, and used it in her brewing, would she have been graded better? My gut feel, from the canon, is "of course!". Because there was nothing ever mentioned constraining students against bringing in other material. In fact, we're often told of Hermione's industry in library research across the board.

And, again, Slughorn is actively PRAISING Harry for bringing in outside techniques. So doing such is most definitely not 'against the rules'.

And so it's not cheating.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

And, again, Slughorn is actively PRAISING Harry for bringing in outside techniques. So doing such is most definitely not 'against the rules'.

And so it's not cheating.


Do you believe if he had shown the book to Slughorn that harry would have been allowed to keep it? What about Dumbledore or McGonagall? Plus the only people who knew about it were his select friends. To me thats as much of an important factor as anything else we're discussing.

When Harry is caught using a spell that Snape knows is his, Harry choses to hide the book automatically. Thats as much of a giveaway to the idea of cheating as anything else. Harry hides it. WHY is Harry hiding a book if it would not be consider cheating to use it. If then Harry was not cheating he had nothing to hide and no reason to keep the Prince's book a secret from the teachers.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

But brewing potions is quite different from that. It's a practical exercise. The students aren't graded on papers, or instructions on how to brew potions, or their knowledge of theory. No, it's a practical test/subject and they submit their brewed potions for grading.

But Harry's submitting his final result as if he'd followed THE ORIGINAL TEXTBOOK INSTRUCTIONS. Slughorn therefore thinks that Harry's superior results are due to some innate superior ability Harry has with potions, not that Harry has instead followed a superior RECIPE.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I see Potions as something like the woodwork subject I took at High School. I did very badly at that. :-(

Hee! :-)

My own analogy would be my 7th grade Home Ec class...

Because my mother had a job that was basically 24/7, I'd actually taken over cooking when I was 9, and by the time I was in 7th grade I'd been making full meals, and done extensive baking, for at least 3 years.

I was really excited when we were given a "real" recipe as the final class assignment: popovers. I'd never made popovers before, but I'd done plenty of other baked goods at home, so I figured it'd be a breeze.

It was an in-class assignment, and it ended up a disaster. I KNEW we'd followed the recipe exactly. But the things not only did not pop, they ended up as pieces of charcoal.

I was SOOOOO pissed! I was obsessed -- it was the first time anything I'd made had failed.

I brought the recipe home, and I started pouring thru all of our cookbooks, comparing all the other popover recipes with the one from school. Most of the other recipes differed little from the one from school. But finally I found a recipe in a little pamphlet cookbook my mother had, printed back in the 1930s or 40s, I think it was put out by a baking powder company...

And there were substantial differences in that recipe compared to the others, including the one from school. More eggs, different manner of mixing ingredients, different way of handling the baking pan, different setting of oven temperature (specifically starting it at a higher temperature than the other recipes, but then turning down the temp after 10 minutes so the popovers wouldn't burn).

I made that recipe, and ended up with DIVINE popovers! They became a favorite of my family, even my rather picky father and sister! I was happy to realize the problem was not with me, but with the recipe.

But let's say that my Home Ec teacher had instead handed us the textbook recipe on Friday, and told us to practice over the weekend, and that on Monday we'd have to make that recipe in class. That I'd gone home, followed the textbook recipe, and found out that it sucked. I then went thru my own "resources" (other cookbooks), and found the better recipe.

If I then came back into class on Monday and made divine popovers with the recipe I'd discovered in my Mom's baking powder recipe booklet, and then presented them to the teacher as IF I HAD FOLLOWED THE TEXTBOOK RECIPE, that would have been dishonest and it would have been cheating.

That would have been especially so if everyone else in class ended up with the terrible end product that indeed occurred. It would seem as if somehow I was magikally (no pun intended) better at baking than my fellow students, when in fact I was only following a better recipe.

It wouldn't have mattered that the purpose of the class was to have us learn cooking, and that the new recipe showed I was a good cook.

Instead, I could have come to class on Monday with my own recipe and HONESTLY reported that I'd had a problem with the textbook recipe, but had found a superior recipe that resulted in a superior product. The teacher could have then said "Go ahead, use your own recipe," if she was decent, and perhaps she'd have suggested that the other students follow my recipe instead. Or she could have been a bitch and insisted that I stick to the textbook with no changes...

I'd still have brought a previously-baked batch into class to prove I could do it with the other recipe! LOL

But at the end of the day, I'd learned something about baking popovers by using another ("corrected") recipe...Harry never learned anything about potions by using the HBP's work.

The bottom line is, by presenting a correct potion as if he'd followed the uncorrected text, Harry was dishonest, and by presenting someone else's work as his own, he was cheating.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

But Harry still took written text that was not his and applied it. Ideas/inventions/intellectual property are legally registered in our world to give the individual the benefit from his work and to attempt the theft of said work.

Which is basically what Harry did. He didn't work out the differences in potion brewing for himself. He didn't sit and compare the two. And frankly even after he bought his own copy he continued to use the Prince's book. He, in fact, went to great trouble to disguise the book as his. I think twice but I could have that mixed up. Didn't he take the new book and put it in the old cover to return the book? How does that not say cheat?

And when Snape cornered him about he, I think he took Ron's book.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I know some are saying it was not cheating, and we're having to go into a different use of words to play around with it. But lets consider this:

I really don't think Slughorn, McGonagall, Dumbledore would have let Harry keep the book if he had shown it to them - thats the issue. IF it was so right and so okay for him to have the book and it was not cheating then why wasn't Harry showing it to the adults? Why wasn't he sharing it with other students? Why was the Prince's book on lockdown for only a select few friends to know about it?

Everyone who doesn't agree that it was a form of cheating should ask why Harry was keeping it hidden. WHY when Snape asked for the book, why didn't Harry present it to him? If it was so right and okay for him to use it, and it was not 'cheating' at Hogwarts then why was he ashamed to show it off to the adults and had to go hide it when it finally came time to give it up?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm talking about that very first class, mostly. Actually, as I re-read a little of HBP (I haven't re-read that book straight through even once), I discovered that Harry should not have taken very long to wise up:

For or the rest of the week's Potions lessons Harry continued to follow the Half-Blood Prince's instructions wherever they deviated from Libatius Borage's, with the result that by their fourth lesson Slughorn was raving about Harry's abilities, saying that he had rarely taught anyone so talented.

By that fourth lesson, then, at the very latest, Harry should have realized that he was being seriously dishonest, whether or not he thought of it as cheating. On at least one level, he *did* realize it, since "[Ron] could not keep asking Harry to read aloud or it might look suspicious." Suspicious? It's only suspicious if there's something wrong about what Harry's doing.

Still, in that first class... I don't think Harry understood that using different directions might be wrong. To be fair, no one had told him, and students do need to be told. They don't just magically know.

Immediately after the class, of course, Hermione points out the dishonesty. Unfortunately, there are some problems with that because:

1) She's a classmate, not an authority.
2) She had been the top of the class, and for once she wasn't.
3) She's always, *always* been a by-the-book person, and Harry and Ron have never respected that in her. Moreover, she's gradually changed to become more like them, tacitly acknowledging that they're right and being by-the-book is wrong.

2) and 3) lead up to the big one:

4) Hermione doesn't suggest that Harry tell Slughorn about the Prince's book. She suggests that Harry abandon the better instructions, and produce worse potions. Which she herself procedes to do: produce worse potions with worse instructions. This doesn't come across as sensible behavior.

I think most of us here would agree that the *better* fair solution would be for Harry to tell Slughorn, and suggest that the alternative instructions be made available to the entire class.

In short, Hermione has no authority and no credibility with Harry. She introduces to Harry the idea that his behavior was dishonest, but in such a way that she *undermines* the idea that Harry should be concerned about the issue.

Even so, Harry *does* realize pretty quickly that he's doing *something* wrong, which is why he hid what he was doing from Slughorn. So I give him only a couple days of grace, at best.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I really don't think Slughorn, McGonagall, Dumbledore would have let Harry keep the book if he had shown it to them - thats the issue.

Well, I think I know what a good teacher would have done. Asked to borrow the book to look at what else was in it, recognized that at least some of the comments significantly improve the recipes, but there were also spells, some of which questionable or worse in the margins. The teacher would have confiscated the book, given the student another, uncommented copy, and given the whole class the improved recipe in those cases where the teacher agreed with the improvement (as I said, we don't know if there were any trade-offs involved with the modifications).

Slughorn may have been too lazy to do all that. OTOH professional pride and curiosity may have encouraged him to go through with it. Especially if he recognized the corrections as being from Severus.

Dumbles would have let Harry keep the book. Personally I think he planted it on him. He wanted Harry to be favored by Horace so he would get the memory, and he didn't care much about Harry's moral development.

Minerva - since the cheating is not related to Quidditch she would have probably objected. Especially if she realized Harry was not learning properly. She said she'd do her darnest to get him a chance to be an Auror, and if he ended up failing exams because he was coasting on success gained through the book it was a bad idea for him to keep it.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

The 'stench' is that of Harry accepting praise, allowing Slughorn to think that he's a Potions genius. Naughty Harry. But he's still brewing good potions ... so he should still get good marks.

He's getting good marks based on someone else's work -- I'd define that as cheating.

It bothers me that he utilize'd the HBP's corrected potions and didn't say anything -- he presented the final product to Slughorn as if he'd followed the uncorrected textbook recipe, which was dishonest.

I'm even more bothered that Harry didn't give a second thought to the new potions/curses/hexes the HBP had invented -- Harry had no way of knowing if the HBP himself had ever actually tried those creations in real life, or whether they were basically mental doodles that were purely intellectual exercises. Harry just decided that they were perfectly okay to use because he'd gotten good results with the HBP's corrected textbook recipes.

But the worst of it was, Harry never learned anything from the HBP's notes; it's not like he gained any greater understanding of potions from copying the HBP's work. He just lucked out in getting a book that contained the notes of someone else's work, that enabled Harry to get better grades. But he didn't become better at potions because of it.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

He's getting good marks based on someone else's work -- I'd define that as cheating.

I think your definition applies more to academic endeavours such as exams or written papers rather than 'practicals' like brewing potions; as has been discussed elsewhere here.

It bothers me that he utilize'd the HBP's corrected potions and didn't say anything -- he presented the final product to Slughorn as if he'd followed the uncorrected textbook recipe, which was dishonest.

But that's plainly not correct. Slughorn's on record as praising Harry for innovations such as adding extra ingredients; so clearly it's NOT a rule that the 'uncorrected textbook recipe' must be followed stringently.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Slughorn's on record as praising Harry for innovations such as adding extra ingredients; so clearly it's NOT a rule that the 'uncorrected textbook recipe' must be followed stringently.

Again, HOW does Slughorn believe he is adding those innovations. Is it Harry knowing the knows the property of an ingredient and through his own test and knowledge of what each substance does and how the react to each other?

I do not remember the praise you are speaking of but if we could have the quote I might give a little on this. BUT, is the praise associated by, He believes Harry added the 'innovations' because Harry knew what he was doing and schooled himself enough to know adding an ingredient would get an effect. Or is he just copying someone elses notes who did do the innovantion.

Is Slughorn believing it's through his (Harry's) own work that this superior potion was created?

After all, this is the advanced class for potion. One expects that those choosing to take this class have a desire to learn and the ability to create and modify potions. After all, Snape's textbook would have been for 6th year, this is the advanced class, Severus would have been taking the time on his own to make these changes and learn, test and imagine what each potion was, he would have learned each ingredient, have tested how they interact together.

Harry does none of that in his 'advanced' study. Taking the 6th and 7th year is by choice but it also would be expected to have a more intelligent student that knows what the they are doing.

So I'd like to see the quote about the Innovations, is Slughorn deciding it's harry that did this OR that Harry has looked into new methods for potion making outside of the text book and classroom.

Harry was not pouring over the Potion Monthly Magazine, brushing up on his skills to learn new innovations.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

He's getting good marks based on someone else's work --

All of the students were brewing potions based on the instructions of others.

-- he presented the final product to Slughorn as if he'd followed the uncorrected textbook recipe, which was dishonest.

But that simply isn't true. Slughorn notes himself on at least one occasion during the year that Harry is NOT "following the uncorrected textbook". And he *praises* Harry for this!

But the worst of it was, Harry never learned anything from the HBP's notes; it's not like he gained any greater understanding of potions from copying the HBP's work. He just lucked out in getting a book that contained the notes of someone else's work, that enabled Harry to get better grades. But he didn't become better at potions because of it.

Agreed. But I dare say he wouldn't have learned much from the regular text either. I'm sure Gamps Law was detailed in the 'official' textbook - Hermione rattled it off - but Harry didn't know it from a bar of soap.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

All of the students were brewing potions based on the instructions of others.

They were following the standard recipe as presented in the textbook; Harry was following the HBP's corrected or totally new version of the recipe, and presenting it as if he'd come up with the variation on his own.

Again, that is cheating.

But that simply isn't true. Slughorn notes himself on at least one occasion during the year that Harry is NOT "following the uncorrected textbook". And he *praises* Harry for this!

He thinks Harry came up with the variations on his own; Harry allows Slughorn to go on believing that Harry has suddenly become a Potions maven instead of correcting Slughorn's misperception and honestly admitting that he's following the notes of a previous student.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Slughorn notes himself on at least one occasion during the year that Harry is NOT "following the uncorrected textbook". And he *praises* Harry for this!


But he praises Harry for being a natural meaning he thought the work/innovations was done by Harry.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Along those lines then plagiarism is okay if a teacher doesn't specifically tell the class not to plagiarize. And if the teacher is not familiar with who initially created the work, the student gets the good marks.

I just see Harry's efforts as along those lines.