GOF Chapter 3: The Invitation

[oryx_leucoryx]

This is the obligatory Dursley chapter, in which we are treated to the home life of this family and learn how inferior they are to wizard families.

Dudley takes up a whole side of the square kitchen table. Ahem, I doubt a square kitchen table (as opposed to a dining room table) was designed to seat 8 people, 2 on a side. His parents excuse away his teachers' accusations of bullying. As opposed to the Weasleys who never receive reports making such heinous accusations against the twins (we'll see the school does occasionally owl their parents, but I don't see any awareness that some of what the twins do is bullying behavior). (This starts the theme of parents dealing with wayward sons in this book.) Dudley is forced into a diet of fruit and vegetables rather than his favorites. From the descriptions we get of the food Harry eats at Hogwarts I get the feeling Harry's favorites are closer to Dudley's than to the health foods, nor does he limit his intake. But somehow Harry remains thin, regardless of whether he gets starved by Petunia or stuffed by Molly or the House-elves.

Changing the food choices of the entire family is a good thing! However adjusting Harry's serving size to Dudley's (perceived?) emotional needs isn't. I don't begrudge Harry for working around a diet he doesn't need, but then I also sympathize with Dudley who does. Changing eating habits of years is hard.
This is also the place to say Dudley must have grown up as an emotional wreck. Knowing that his parents were capable of such physical and emotional deprivation of someone in their care - what if he ever failed to please them? I think a big part of his misbehavior is both making sure his parents know he *isn't* Harry as well as wanting the reassurance that they still love him, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Of Harry's 4 sources of help only one sends food he appreciates. Odd that even Hagrid managed to send an edible birthday cake. But how edible is it (or any of the others) 3 weeks later?

Harry is surprised that the Weasleys wrote directly to the Dursleys. Vernon is embarrassed that they didn't know how many stamps to use. But really, how hard is it to find out? Didn't they go to the post office to buy the stamps? What does it say about the exchange rate between Galleons and pounds that a family so poor finds it reasonable to spend on so many stamps for one letter? Molly's letter sounds as if she is trying too hard to make the Quidditch World Cup sound special and to make Arthur sound important. And of course she doesn't have enough imagination to realize that sending a letter by owl isn't normal for the Dursleys.

Harry is offended on Molly's behalf when Vernon calls her 'dumpy'. Since Molly likes Harry nobody is allowed to notice she is overweight.

I must say that the scene where Harry threatens Vernon with Sirius looks a lot less humorous now that I have seen Harry enjoy torturing a man for punishment, and Sirius engaging in Muggle-baiting.

If I am correct in my understanding that Ron is claiming that he and Molly wrote their respective letters at about the same time, then I am impressed with the UK post. Molly's letter arrived on Saturday morning. Pig arrived the same morning. Considering the speed of owls elsewhere, it looks as though Ron's letter was sent earlier that morning. So a letter got delivered the morning it was sent?

I am less impressed with the Weasleys. They plan on taking Harry regardless of the Dursleys' consent. One could argue that eventually Molly and Arthur realized their sons were not exaggerating when they said Harry had been imprisoned and starved, but seeing how Arthur views the treatment of Muggles, both in this book and in COS, I doubt this made a difference.

Harry is happy specifically because Dudley is suffering and he isn't. The seeds of the bully of HBP and war criminal of DH.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

He thinks Harry came up with the variations on his own; Harry allows Slughorn to go on believing that Harry has suddenly become a Potions maven instead of correcting Slughorn's misperception and honestly admitting that he's following the notes of a previous student.

And that doesn't matter!

The students are graded on the quality of the potions that they brew! Not on their understanding of the instructions!

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Well, it matters in one respect: Harry was being dishonest, regardless of whether he was also cheating and/or plagiarizing.

The book says that "by their fourth lesson Slughorn was raving about Harry's abilities, saying that he had rarely taught anyone so talented." Harry's sitting there and not correcting Slughorn's mistake, while being praised to the skies. That's unquestionably dishonest.

It doesn't make it cheating just because Harry's won't risk alerting Slughorn to the notes, by reading the alternative instructions aloud to Ron. That *does* reinforce Harry's dishonesty, though. It isn't just that he isn't speaking up; he's making a decision to prevent Slughorn from inadvertently finding out. Even though the decision keeps him from helping one of his friends.

Considering that the potions are never turned in with a set of instructions and a list of sources consulted, there's no attempt or intention to deceive on Harry's part when he doesn't say anything the first day. Of course, prior to sixth year, they never had any sources but the chalkboard, anyway (presumably). By the fourth day, though, Harry is unquestionably being dishonest.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Harry was being dishonest, regardless of whether he was also cheating and/or plagiarizing.

Yes. I've been saying that all along.

The book says that "by their fourth lesson Slughorn was raving about Harry's abilities, saying that he had rarely taught anyone so talented." Harry's sitting there and not correcting Slughorn's mistake, while being praised to the skies. That's unquestionably dishonest.

'Dishonest by omission', does that make sense? If Slughorn had asked Harry squarely 'did you think of this?', the boy might or might not have lied. By not speaking up in the canon he committed a lie of omission.

Considering that the potions are never turned in with a set of instructions and a list of sources consulted, there's no attempt or intention to deceive on Harry's part when he doesn't say anything the first day.

Thank you, yes. Harry's technically not 'cheating' in class (even on the following days, in my opinion). But he's dishonest and is disingenuously allowing Slughorn to praise him for qualities he does not possess; that's beyond question.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

It's very *pointed* omission, not correcting someone who's constantly praising you to the skies. It isn't as though the existence of something-to-correct was so transient that Harry had an excuse not to say something. Personally, I don't think Harry deserves a pass on the grounds of "dishonest by omission."

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Harry even hides the book, surreptitiously shoving it out of sight with his foot, when Slughorn's praising him one time, I think. So yes, he knew he was permitting the professor to draw wrong conclusions.

But I still think it's technically 'dishonest by omission'. A huge big heavy enormous case, but still by omission.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Definitely. I just don't think that makes it any better, considering the situation.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I've been focusing on Harry's dishonesty because we don't need to know anything about the rules at Hogwarts or the way Potions classes work to determine whether he's being dishonest. But let's push this a little further.

I don't think it matters very much, outside of that first contest, whether the Prince's instructions give Harry an advantage over the other students. I doubt Slughorn is grading on a curve, and so it seems unlikely that anyone else's grades are suffering because of Harry's actions.

He's depriving whoever would've been the best in the class of that position. Quite possibly Hermione. That in itself doesn't make it cheating, either. I'm a little unsympathetic to Hermione, here, since her response to seeing that there are better instructions out there than the ones in the textbook is... to insist on using the textbook. Even if she doesn't want to trust the Prince's instructions, she could go to the library to look into other recipes that are better than the textbook's. She doesn't. (end tangent)

Back to grades, though... Doesn't it seem likely that Harry's grades are higher because Slughorn thinks Harry's brilliant, than they would be if Slughorn knew that Harry was just following different instructions? I'm not saying that Harry's grades wouldn't be very good anyway, because he's producing high-quality potions. Still, Harry's *essays* won't have gotten any better.

This is speculative, yes, but I would expect Slughorn to be more concerned about the problems with the essays if Harry's just mindlessly following instructions. If Slughorn thinks that Harry is a brilliant, intuitive brewer, then the problems with the essays become less important.

So, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that Harry's grades are probably better for his failure to tell Slughorn the truth. *If* that's the case, then I would say that his dishonesty is cheating, everything else aside.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm a little unsympathetic to Hermione, here, since her response to seeing that there are better instructions out there than the ones in the textbook is... to insist on using the textbook. Even if she doesn't want to trust the Prince's instructions, she could go to the library to look into other recipes that are better than the textbook's. She doesn't. (end tangent)

YES!!

It's a great tangent. Is this evidence that Harry was a cheat? Do we assume that Hermione *would* have looked for alternative texts if it wasn't against the rules? (Putting aside the fact that we're probably thick in "Rowling just didn't think of it" territory.)

Doesn't it seem likely that Harry's grades are higher because Slughorn thinks Harry's brilliant, than they would be if Slughorn knew that Harry was just following different instructions? I'm not saying that Harry's grades wouldn't be very good anyway, because he's producing high-quality potions.

Maybe a little; but you've answered the main question anyway in your second part. The kids are graded on the quality of their output.

Still, Harry's *essays* won't have gotten any better.

Yes. Which is why I'm happy in considering the 'practical' classes as quite simply exactly that, as we know there are other avenues where students are graded on their understanding of the theory.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

(Putting aside the fact that we're probably thick in "Rowling just didn't think of it" territory.)

We're also thick in "Hermione's OOC here because Rowling needed her to be" territory. When Hermione didn't want to look at the Prince's notes, I pulled up short. Hermione? Not want to see improvements on the lessons? I could take (was it Karen's or June's?) idea that Hermione was just bent out of shape for a minute, then couldn't go back without "losing face" but it's still so OOC - I expected her any minute to break down and either ask to see the notes, since she saw the results, or be caught taking a sneak peek in the book.

...we know there are other avenues where students are graded on their understanding of the theory.

Yes, but it's the same teacher who assigns theory as well as practice. Did Slughorn remove all his memories of the potions when he graded the essays or did he remove all memories of the essays when he went into the lab classes? Or, did he simply not assign theory work at all? He couldn't be that dense not to see a disconnect between the brewing and the essays. He's a veteran teacher. He might have excused it away as Harry not being too good a writer but you'd think he would have talked to Harry about improvements in that area or had McGonagall, as Harry's HoH, do it.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Responding to myself - isn't that a bad sign? ;)

Or, he could have been routinely memory-wiped every time he brought the subject up to Dumbledore. That's something I wouldn't put past His Microcontrolingness.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I could take (was it Karen's or June's?) idea that Hermione was just bent out of shape for a minute, then couldn't go back without "losing face"

't wasn't me, I haven't given Hermione a single thought in this whole discussion! :-)

Responding to myself - isn't that a bad sign? ;)

Talking to oneself is one way to assure oneself of having an intelligent conversation! LOL

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I could take (was it Karen's or June's?) idea that Hermione was just bent out of shape for a minute, then couldn't go back without "losing face"

't wasn't me, I haven't given Hermione a single thought in this whole discussion! :-)


I've been gone for the weekend and am just getting back online tonight to read up.

I can't remember if/what I wrote about Hermione, If I did it didn't make enough of an impression on me, for me to remember it. Thats bad when you can't remember what you wrote or if you did. If I did I think I would have been responding to someone else's comments about her maybe?

I am not 100% sure what I think of Hermione's utter contempt of the book or the shock she has about it. I'm more apt to agree that she'd want to look at it at least, especially after she saw that the spells were an improvement.

I'd think IF anyone of Harry's friends could be trusted to tell him if Septem Sempra was a bad spell it would have been Hermione. So she would have been the ideal person to look over the book to let him know what was good or bad. Plus I'd think if she saw they were an improvement, I don't get the Ministry approved deal, especially after the going through dealing with the Ministry and Umbridge in OOTP. Hermione would have been less inclined to follow their lead I would have thought after that whole book.

And maybe thats the OOC that JKR threw in for a reason. If Hermione had been so willing to look at the Prince's book, She would have been able to warned Harry about what each spell did, becuase if anyone could have picked up on certain unknown spells she should have been able to.

So maybe the whole reason Hermione is not willing to look, because the authro having her look would have spoiled the moment of Harry slashing up Draco in the bathroom, or all the little wow discovery moments harry found by using those spells.

Hermione would have figured it all out in one reading. JKR couldn't give hermione the book in story because she would have solved and actually Understood all the spells and improvements.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

We're also thick in "Hermione's OOC here because Rowling needed her to be" territory.

Sadly that was nothing compared with what was to come in book 6 ... :-(

He couldn't be that dense not to see a disconnect between the brewing and the essays. He's a veteran teacher.

Good point! And it stands regardless of whether or not Harry was 'cheating'.

So do we assume that almost all of the Potions classes were 'practicals'? Or maybe the Prince had advice scribbled in the margins regarding potions theory? As well as the mechanics of potions brewing, dark magic ...

[oryx_leucoryx]

It is possible Harry kept handing in mediocre essays and Slughorn decided his understanding of the subject was 'instinctive' and visceral rather than analytical. That he was a Potions artist rather than a Potions scientist. Remember Severus' first lesson speech about the exact art and subtle science of brewing?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I guess that's possible. Slughorn calls him an 'expert potioneer' when suggesting that Harry could have 'whipped up' an antidote to Romilda Vane's love potion.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

So do we assume that almost all of the Potions classes were 'practicals'?
Or Hermione still wrote his essays.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Heh. I dunno, she was pretty mad at him for using the Prince's book.

Plus she'd lost half her brain in her silly games of jealousy with Won Won. :-(

(See, that's something we missed in year 7; Hermione blaming Ron for losing her position at the top of their year.)

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Hey, Madderbrad! Jumping in the middle here - but, in my religious tradition, sins of omission can be more serious than sins of commission.

I definitely see Harry as both a plagiarist and a cheater here.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I definitely see Harry as both a plagiarist and a cheater here.

Harry's luck you weren't his Potions teacher in his sixth year then. :-)

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I definitely see Harry as both a plagiarist and a cheater here.

Harry's luck you weren't his Potions teacher in his sixth year then. :-)

How about he was lucky Professor Snape wasn't his teacher.

1 - He wouldn't have gotten into the class on his own. Although I have a feeling Dumbledore would have made the special request if Slughorn had decided to say retired.

2 - Snape would have known something was up the first day if Harry blitzed through a potion before everyone else and did special things to it no student would normally know.

So unless Snape and Dumbledore made the plan that Harry would get the book, I don't think Harry would have made it out the door first Potion Class with that book.

But then it goes back to the other conversation some of us have touched on. Why was the book left there in the first place, because it seems to me to be out of character for Snape to leave something like that behind.

Plus, Snape would have left school so I would think he would have took the book with him. So as I pointed out earlier, he would have had to bring the book back with him and decide to put it in the spare borrowing book section of the cabinet.

Unless he left it there after 7th year - but with the writing in it that Snape seems very particular about why would he leave it? He makes a big deal about James/Harry stealing/using his spells - so the book has his personal work in it so it doesn't seem like Something Snape would just let get out for a random student to end up with.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Unless he left it there after 7th year - but with the writing in it that Snape seems very particular about why would he leave it?

Agreed. I just don't see 18 y.o. Snape just leaving the book behind when he graduated, especially since he seems to have become a DE around then, one would think that his annotated Potions book would be considered a valued resource to him at that time (and it's my opinion that Snape's expertise in potions is what brought him to Voldie's attention, and it is why Snape's tenure as a DE didn't require him to go out on raids like Bella and the rest).

So that leaves us with the only other possibility, that he still had the book when Dumbledore gave him a job at Hogwarts, and that he kept the book as a teaching resource thru the years.

So unless, as someone else suggested, Snape deliberately left the book for Slughorn to use, and Slughorn didn't realize it was anything but an old, used textbook, we have a big question as to why that book was in the cupboard with the other used textbooks.

If, as has been also suggested, it was part of a plan for Harry to get the textbook so that he would suddenly excel at Potions, it was a very random and haphazard manner to do it; IIRC, Harry and Ron fought over the newer textbook that was in better condition, and Harry ended up losing, and settling on the older book. But perhaps DD counted on the possibility that even if Ron had gotten the book, he would have willing shared its secrets with his BFF... :-P

[oryx_leucoryx]

One interesting bit about the annotations is that Ron couldn't decipher the writing but Harry could. So if there was a conspiracy going on, the annotations may have been charmed to be read by Harry.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

My theory is that somebody, possibly DD, confiscated the book from Snape somewhere arouhd his 6th or 7th year, maybe after the incident by the lake.
(Yes, I count with the Hogwarts Justice System: Blame the Slytherin for All.)

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

My theory is that somebody, possibly DD, confiscated the book from Snape somewhere arouhd his 6th or 7th year, maybe after the incident by the lake.

But then why keep it all those years instead of destroying it?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

But then it goes back to the other conversation some of us have touched on. Why was the book left there in the first place, because it seems to me to be out of character for Snape to leave something like that behind.

...

As is often the case here I think you people are proving to be much more clever and fastidious than Rowling, going deeper into it than she ever expected.

She just needed the book and the 'mystery' of the Prince as filler, so - voila! - it just materialised there for Harry to pick up. It's as easy as that when you're Rowling!

I guess all a pro-canon person could say is that yes, Snape made a mistake and left it there.