GOF Chapter 3: The Invitation

[oryx_leucoryx]

This is the obligatory Dursley chapter, in which we are treated to the home life of this family and learn how inferior they are to wizard families.

Dudley takes up a whole side of the square kitchen table. Ahem, I doubt a square kitchen table (as opposed to a dining room table) was designed to seat 8 people, 2 on a side. His parents excuse away his teachers' accusations of bullying. As opposed to the Weasleys who never receive reports making such heinous accusations against the twins (we'll see the school does occasionally owl their parents, but I don't see any awareness that some of what the twins do is bullying behavior). (This starts the theme of parents dealing with wayward sons in this book.) Dudley is forced into a diet of fruit and vegetables rather than his favorites. From the descriptions we get of the food Harry eats at Hogwarts I get the feeling Harry's favorites are closer to Dudley's than to the health foods, nor does he limit his intake. But somehow Harry remains thin, regardless of whether he gets starved by Petunia or stuffed by Molly or the House-elves.

Changing the food choices of the entire family is a good thing! However adjusting Harry's serving size to Dudley's (perceived?) emotional needs isn't. I don't begrudge Harry for working around a diet he doesn't need, but then I also sympathize with Dudley who does. Changing eating habits of years is hard.
This is also the place to say Dudley must have grown up as an emotional wreck. Knowing that his parents were capable of such physical and emotional deprivation of someone in their care - what if he ever failed to please them? I think a big part of his misbehavior is both making sure his parents know he *isn't* Harry as well as wanting the reassurance that they still love him, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Of Harry's 4 sources of help only one sends food he appreciates. Odd that even Hagrid managed to send an edible birthday cake. But how edible is it (or any of the others) 3 weeks later?

Harry is surprised that the Weasleys wrote directly to the Dursleys. Vernon is embarrassed that they didn't know how many stamps to use. But really, how hard is it to find out? Didn't they go to the post office to buy the stamps? What does it say about the exchange rate between Galleons and pounds that a family so poor finds it reasonable to spend on so many stamps for one letter? Molly's letter sounds as if she is trying too hard to make the Quidditch World Cup sound special and to make Arthur sound important. And of course she doesn't have enough imagination to realize that sending a letter by owl isn't normal for the Dursleys.

Harry is offended on Molly's behalf when Vernon calls her 'dumpy'. Since Molly likes Harry nobody is allowed to notice she is overweight.

I must say that the scene where Harry threatens Vernon with Sirius looks a lot less humorous now that I have seen Harry enjoy torturing a man for punishment, and Sirius engaging in Muggle-baiting.

If I am correct in my understanding that Ron is claiming that he and Molly wrote their respective letters at about the same time, then I am impressed with the UK post. Molly's letter arrived on Saturday morning. Pig arrived the same morning. Considering the speed of owls elsewhere, it looks as though Ron's letter was sent earlier that morning. So a letter got delivered the morning it was sent?

I am less impressed with the Weasleys. They plan on taking Harry regardless of the Dursleys' consent. One could argue that eventually Molly and Arthur realized their sons were not exaggerating when they said Harry had been imprisoned and starved, but seeing how Arthur views the treatment of Muggles, both in this book and in COS, I doubt this made a difference.

Harry is happy specifically because Dudley is suffering and he isn't. The seeds of the bully of HBP and war criminal of DH.

Comments

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

To me thats as much of an important factor as anything else we're discussing.

And what are you doing may I ask? I'm posting what I think. I'm pretty sure you are doing the same thing. Now you can accuse me of doing some kinda straying to get my point across but I don't see that as any different than what you are doing.

So you can keep it on the discussion or you can accuse me of being an evil pusher of stray opinions.

Hay, anyone want this stray opinion I just picked a stray up off the street, it's really cute.

I'm principally interested in what Harry ... did in Potions class!

He used a book with notes and got better grades and got the teachers devotion and praise.

Apparently the only way JKR could make Harry good in potions was to give him Snape's clifnotes.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hay, anyone want this stray opinion I just picked a stray up off the street, it's really cute.

It depends on whether the stray cute opinion is backed up by the canon.

You feel that Harry was a 'cheat'? That it WASN'T FAIR that he got top marks in Potions? That he didn't LEARN anything by copying the Prince's instructions? That in a fair universe all the students would have a level playing field, that part of the class's curriculum would have involved exams on the potions *theory*, that Slughorn should have questioned Harry more closely?

That's a good opinion. I like it too. But there's nothing in the canon that says your opinion is CORRECT. Show me where it says "level playing field". Show me where it says "every student MUST use the same textbook and instructions". Show me where it says "Hermione and all students were allowed to use the library for everything except their potions brewing".

Show me where Hermione tells her friend, "Harry, you're cheating, because is says so in Hogwarts, A History that ...".

Show me any of that and your opinion becomes a logical deduction supported by canon fact.

But until that point it's just a feeling, the reason why you think Harry is a cheat. But you've got to PROVE that. Back it up with canon facts. Posting stray cute opinions is nice, but until you say "oh, and the canon shows that the stray cute opinion is correct, here and here and here" then that stray cute opinion contributes nothing much to the topic. We're not after 'cute' opinions; we're after provably correct ones.

Until we come up with some ... Harry's not a cheat.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

If I might make a comparison...
There is a Latin class. The students have to translate some Caesar. Everybody has their text, everybody has their Oxford Latin Dictionary.
One student has an old textbook with some marginalia. He cannot understand a key sentence in the text. He looks at the marginalia and sees that the previous owner of the textbook has solved it - in the key parts of every sentence, there is a helpful note scribbled between the lines. He uses it for his own translation. He ends with the best translation in the class and gets praised for it.
Was he cheating?
I´m a Latin teacher. For me, he was. Had I caught him, he would get another, more difficult text - and I´d look to it that the text is pure, without any scribbling. I´d give him another copy of the vocabulary, too, just in case.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Are students allowed to bring in material other than their dictionary? I suspect not; that this is a 'closed book' exam, just so they're all on the level playing field we would have all liked to have seen enforced in HBP.

But there's no such constraint in Slughorn's potions class. Not of which we know for sure in the text.

It's a nice example, but like others here it doesn't reflect the practical nature of Harry's potions classes. I've proffered my old woodwork high school subject as a counter example. We were all given basic training/instructions, all told to 'make this'. But if I used superior instructions that my father had written down for me and that I'd tucked into a pocket ... there's no way I would have been penalised. It was the craftsmanship in the end result which mattered.

Maybe Hogwarts' Potions classes were closer to your latin class. Maybe closer to my 'practical' example. There's nothing in the canon that conclusively shows us; so either of our examples can fit. I think mine's the closest. Particularly since we DO have examples of other styles of Potions class where the students are tested on their grasp of *theory*, such as when they have to brew an antidote to an arbitrary poison. If that was, as Hermione said, a class where the students had to "understand the principles involved", what then does that say about the other ('standard') Potions classes? Why, they're the *practical* ones!

When I consider that, plus the proliferation of library use throughout the books, the fact that Slughorn *encourages* deviation from the supposedly set instructions, that Hermione never stated outright that Harry had cheated (and why) ... all of that summed up says to me that Harry didn't cheat.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Are students allowed to bring in material other than their dictionary? I suspect not; that this is a 'closed book' exam, just so they're all on the level playing field we would have all liked to have seen enforced in HBP.

But there's no such constraint in Slughorn's potions class. Not of which we know for sure in the text.


We have no reason to assume in canon Slughorn gave them permission to use other than the standard textbook either.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Sure. It's not certain either way.

So, on that basis, we know that it can't be said that Harry is a cheat.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

For me, the main difference is in student´s activity or inactivity.
If I catched the student, gave him the more difficult text and he translated it very well, I´d believe him the notes could be his own. (And no, in fact this is normal lesson, not a test. For a test, they wouldn´t have a dictionary - as Harry does not have his Potions book for OWLs.) Then I´d ask him about the very thing I wanted to know in the lesson whether they understood. If he had good answers, if he understood, good. If he had his own theories, I´d be happy. Because it would be a sign that he was thinking about it outside of school.
If you asked your father for instructions and then used them in my class, I´d not think you cheat - you tried to solve a problem, you were active, you went to other sources.
But Harry did not ask anybody. He was handed answers. And used them without thinking. This is why I think it is cheating.
Re: Slughorn, we have no information, as you say. It can be that the students have to follow the textbook, or, as I understand it, that Slughorn want them to think for themselves and come with some theories, try to improve. Maybe the recipes are the most difficult ones and you have to either work very, very precisely (Hermione), or come with some better ideas (young Severus). Harry does neither.
If he asked Hermione (or the Prince or anybody), "Hey, why do you add the mint?" - he would try to understand and it wouldn´t be cheating for me.
If he went to the library and came with some ideas, it would not be cheating for me, because from library, you hardly can bring full better recipe (as I believe that even if Slughorn is lazy, he still uses the best known text), but some principles. This involves thinking, again.
But he did not. He used some notes, without thinking, when his own lazy work showed not to be enough. He did not learn anything. And so, he cheats *himself*. Why to be in an electory class, when you don´t want to learn the stuff at all?

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I think he was in the elective course because it's a prerequisite for the job he wants to do. I know I had to take a few courses I wouldn't normally have chosen because they were necessary to my major. The school where I got my AA didn't give a range of choices for the mathematical requirement so I had a heck of a time there. The school where I got my BA gave choices between mathematics, computer courses and philosophy/logic. I did better with the logic.

Harry isn't really bad at Potions, he just isn't exceptional. He got in the second-highest possible range of scores. (Sorry, I forget which is the highest, O or E.) He isn't as good as Hermione and Hermione isn't as good as the Prince. The difference seems to be, as you mentioned, a compelling interest outside of class where the student looks up information and synthesizes it out of a desire for the subject or for the marks.

For Potions, though, I think Snape's rule of only taking students in the highest range (O?) was better than Slughorn's taking students from the two highest ranges (O and E). The ones with the highest scores are more likely to have a natural interest and talent for the subject and more likely to do what the Prince did, figure out what makes things work together and apply the knowledge.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

But why is it prerequisite? I think, because an Auror needs knowledge of Potions for his work. (Poisons, Veritaserum etc.)
I agree with majorjune a little bit below. (http://community.livejournal.com/deathtocapslock/120708.html?thread=4884612#t4884612)

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I think he was in the elective course because it's a prerequisite for the job he wants to do. I know I had to take a few courses I wouldn't normally have chosen because they were necessary to my major.

Yes, passing NEWT-level Potions is a requirement for the Auror job.

But it's rather more than, say, taking a pottery class to fulfill a requirement for one Fine Arts elective to get a Bachelor's in Business Administration.

It is more akin to requiring a Pre-Med student take Advanced Chemistry or Physiology 401, they are subjects that are NECESSARY FOR THE JOB...

The school where I got my BA gave choices between mathematics, computer courses and philosophy/logic. I did better with the logic.

(sigh)...things have really changed since my day...back then, those were considered 3 totally different subjects. One could never substitute a philosophy/logic or computer class for math, you'd have to take Algebra or Calculus or Geometry. Computer classes were considered either a business elective, or their own IT option. And philosophy/logic was, well, Philosophy...

For Potions, though, I think Snape's rule of only taking students in the highest range (O?) was better than Slughorn's taking students from the two highest ranges (O and E). The ones with the highest scores are more likely to have a natural interest and talent for the subject and more likely to do what the Prince did, figure out what makes things work together and apply the knowledge.

Agreed. But the irony is, presumably Slughorn was the instructor back when Snape was a student, so when Snape was a 6th year he would have been with classmates that only got an "E" on their OWLS...

LOL

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

But it's rather more than, say, taking a pottery class to fulfill a requirement for one Fine Arts elective to get a Bachelor's in Business Administration.

I know. I'm not so sure Harry knew (or that Rowling put it together, either.)

...back then, those were considered 3 totally different subjects.

They're under the general heading of "Mathematical/Analytical Reasoning." The logic courses are formula-intensive (If A, then B; if B, then C; therefore, if A then C [IIRC, lol!] and the like.) The computer courses are more programming than business and one can also take two statistics courses. You would need college-level algebra before being able to take these courses.

I agree that Snape would have been in with the E-level students when he was in school. Probably why he only took O-level students, he saw the difference when he was a student.

I don't get it on a fundamental level. To me it would make sense that Snape changed the requirement for practical reasons but, since Our Hero was such a mediocre Everyman, that had to be wrong and another strike against Snape (for potentially dashing Harry's dream to become an Auror.) If the Potions skill was more or less peripheral to an Auror's job, why not just have McGonagall or Hermione gripe about it a little? If it was so necessary to the job, why didn't we see any Aurors using Potions or talking about using Potions on the job? We see three Aurors or former Aurors in the series (Shacklebolt was an Auror, wasn't he?) and none of them say a word one way or another about Potions, the requirement to have NEWT-level Potions, whether it was a goofy requirement (we were shown that the Ministry is sometimes clueless) and nor did they talk to Harry about the need to study up on his Potions because it's so necessary in the job.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

... Then I´d ask him about the very thing I wanted to know in the lesson whether they understood. If he had good answers ...

That's all well and good, but your example here is now light years distant from the Hogwarts potions classes. In many classes there is no such examination of students' understanding; not their understanding of the standard textboot, nor of any other source of material. It's simply a case of "brew this potion; you'll be graded on the quality of what you produce".

There are other Potions classes where, yes, the students *are* tested on their grasp of the theory. Hermione exults in one case where they're tested on their understanding of poisons, saying that the Prince's book won't help Harry in that case.

You see? In some potions classes the source of instructions is moot; so Harry isn't a cheat.

In others the instructions can't help unless the student has that understanding you favour; in which case the Prince's book wouldn't help Harry anyway. So he's not a cheat there either.

Add the two together and ... Harry's not a cheat. :-)

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was the lesson about antidotes, right? Where Harry had no clue at all, then saw "Just show a bezoar down their throats" written in his Prince book, put a bezoar on his desk aaand... got praised for it. ;o))
So, clearly, he did not do the work of the lesson, did he?
He even was not able to remember his very first Potion lesson, when he was questioned about bezoars... nor that one about antidotes, when he had to be photographed instead...
It´s not my fault that Sluggy is a lazy teacher. But even under a lazy teacher, even when one does not get caught, cheating is cheating. ;o))

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

He looks at the marginalia and sees that the previous owner of the textbook has solved it - in the key parts of every sentence, there is a helpful note scribbled between the lines. He uses it for his own translation. He ends with the best translation in the class and gets praised for it.

As relevant an analogy as my cooking examples... :-)

Obviously we both agree that "the final result" shouldn't be the overriding criteria for judging/grading a student's work.

Another example: in a woodworking class students are given printed instructions on how to build a cabinet. This is an advanced woodworking class, to get into it students had to demonstrate a certain level of skill and knowledge.

All students save one follow the instructions they were given, and end up with adequate cabinets. But one student discovered notes from a student who took the class in a previous year, and by following those notes ends up with a cabinet that is stronger then those made by his classmates. The instructor praises the student for the innovations he thinks the student made solely on his own, not knowing that the student in question actually followed the notes of another student.

The instructor gushes that he hasn't seen such a talented student in years; the student allows the instructor to continue to heap praise on him and hides the fact that he's using someone else's notes.

The student with the notes ends up being considered the best student in class, gets the highest grades, but just continues to use the earlier student's notes without spending any time actually becoming a good woodworker on his own.

The student gets an "A" for the class at the end of the year because the instructor never caught on, most of the rest of the teachers at the school think the student is suddenly a master carpenter because of how much his instructor has raved about his abilities...but once the class has ended, the student can't even fix a broken chair leg.

But because he got such good grades in class, and his teacher raves about him to anyone seeking references, the student ends up as first choice for construction jobs over his fellow ex-classmates, where he's responsible to build structures that people will live or work in...and which end up collapsing because the student never actually LEARNED anything in the master class, only followed someone else's notes without giving those notes any deeper thought, and especially not letting his instructor know that he found someone else's notes that improved upon the original project. The student therefore consistently handed in superior work which the instructor assumed was the student's own innovations.

But hey, it's all about the final result, isn't it?

I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want to live in a house built by someone who'd gone to the head of their class by copying someone else's work. And I sure as hell wouldn't want to go to a doctor who'd gotten thru medical school using someone else's notes to get good grades, but never actually LEARNED anything from said notes!

If it really is nothing but the end product/final result that counts, then it should be perfectly okay to submit term papers written by someone else. What Harry did was no different than if he'd had some other student outside of class brew the potion while Harry just went thru the motions within the classroom, and then just before it's time for Slughorn to grade it, duck out into the hall or open a window to grab the other potion from the other student and present it to Slughorn as his own.

Harry, in using the HBP's recipes, just went thru the motions of making a potion, but it was really Snape who did the work.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

Yes. Exactly. I cannot agree more. It´s all about the final result - and the final result is a pupil who can understand, what and why is he throwing into cauldron. Who cares about single essays and school potions, they are nothing but steps to the final result.
But Harry is not allowed to learn (by his author).
So... *shrugs*
:-))

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Hay, anyone want this stray opinion I just picked a stray up off the street, it's really cute.

It depends on whether the stray cute opinion is backed up by the canon.

Canon? I don't need no stinkin' canon.

My stray opinion appears to be backed by other members on this group; I'm not the only person who things this ya know.

You feel that Harry was a 'cheat'?

Maybe I should correct you, I believe Harry was cheating, and he knew better but still did it. He had his reasons for doing just like Dumbledore had his reasons for doing all the things he did. Do I agree with all of the things Dumbledore did, NO. Do I agree with all the things harry did, NO.

Show me any of that and your opinion becomes a logical deduction supported by canon fact.

Pleanty of people have already given you reasons and their opinions, and quite a few have given reasons from canon that support the idea of why he was cheating. Go back and read the supporters wrote. Many have posted why and used canon to the reasons.


Until we come up with some ... Harry's not a cheat.

You say we like my opinion is a group effort.

Let me make this easy. My opinion is he was cheating. Your opinion is he wasn't. There is no we in opinion. YOu can take it or leave it.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Canon? I don't need no stinkin' canon.

Oh. Well, if all you're doing is just putting up your 'opinions' as wishful thinking, uhm, okay, wow, it's such a nice and pretty opinion, even if it isn't correct, thanks for showing it to us!

*pats Karen's stray cute opinion*

There is no we in opinion. YOu can take it or leave it.

Since you give me no reason based in the canon, no proof that your opinion is any more correct than any other stray cute opinion, I'll leave it.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Oh. Well, if all you're doing is just putting up your 'opinions' as wishful thinking, uhm, okay, wow, it's such a nice and pretty opinion, even if it isn't correct, thanks for showing it to us!

You really want canon? Here is canon in reference to the Half-Blood Prince book being used. In terms of Harry being unable to stop snape from seeing into his mind and seeing that the book was being used.

"Do you want to know what I think, Potter?" said Snape, very quietly, "I think you are a liar and a cheat and that you deseve deention with me every Saturday until the end of term, what do you think, Potter?"

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Rats. I found that five minutes before I sent off my last comment and hoped no-one else would see it. I wish you hadn't found it. :-) Curse you!

That accusation that Harry is a 'cheat' from Snape - ex Potions teacher - lends a lot of weight to the side of those who hold that Harry was a cheat. I still don't think it's *proven* - Snape's unbalanced when it comes to Harry - but I'm on much thinner ground now, I think.

My next step would be to go and find examples of where Snape has lied to Harry before, and then propose that in this case, too, he was lying when he said that he thought Harry was a cheat.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Snape's unbalanced? He is angry and bitter but to me a lot of the time he is telling the truth. And the old saying is, the truth hurts sometimes. Snape is apparently trying to make his own point with a stray opinon.


Well, first thing is, Snape says Harry's a liar.


Harry was telling a lie, anyone with half a brain can see he is - he used a false book to hide the fact that he just use the Septem Sempra spell on Draco. He did not give Snape the correct copy that Snape asked for, he gave Ron's book if I remember rightly. That makes Harry a liar. Plus he lied about the name in the copy he did present to Snape, which was neither his nickname or his book. Again, Harry is telling a lie about the name in the book as well.

So where does Snape get cheat from?

Now I don't know for sure, is there any other instance where Snape calls Harry a cheat?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

My next step would be to go and find examples of where Snape has lied to Harry before, and then propose that in this case, too, he was lying when he said that he thought Harry was a cheat.

Well, to cut you some slack -- yeah, I'm actually doing that! -- one could argue that Snape's statement just reflects Snape's opinion, nothing more.

But Snape is a professor, and Harry does go out of his way to hide the fact that he's utilizing someone else's notes from Slughorn, and when Snape demands to see the book Harry -- who at that point has no idea that the HBP is really Snape -- goes out of his way to hide the book and present Ron's textbook in its stead...

All signs that Harry himself knew that what he was doing was considered cheating, and that Snape calling him a cheat isn't just Snape being petulant.

But you know me, I'm a Snape fan! LOL

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

We're not after 'cute' opinions; we're after provably correct ones.
Until we come up with some ... Harry's not a cheat.

I really don't think that's how it works. They might as well say until you can prove what the never-explored Hogwarts rules are that Harry is a cheat. It's not a black or white 'they have to prove your standards or else you're going to state your position as the only correct one' situation. (Anymore than they can say that Harry is definitely a cheat.)

What there is is in the same books you're all reading, none of you are ever going to get further clarification on information that isn't covered (unless Rowling does another one of her endless interviews, and even then we could all debate whether or not they're canon ad infiniteum.) Slughorn never finds out that Harry has access to the Prince's book.
Even if he did, he may not care (no-one in Hogwarts is particularly wedded to knowledge for the sake of knowledge - Snape, Slughorn, McGonagall, Dumbledore etc. have all shown that they'll bend their standards if it's a pupil they particularly like or dislike, or if they could gain something unrelated to their jobs from a student doing well/poorly.)
IMHO, it really does seem to be down to each reader's personal ethics/interpretation (much like say, the Cruciatus - Rowling's world varies wildly on whether it's an Unforgiveable, in terms of ethics or legality, but from the treatment of Harry's both in the book and interviews we can say that it's if not right (or gallant!) then at least acceptable in the fictional universe. We're really just discussing at this point whether it's right/acceptable to each of us.
Your opinion that it's valid based on your woodwork experience has the same weight as the other commenter's experiences based on chemistry class; but I don't think any one side can declare that they're right in terms of the Potterverse.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Until we come up with some ... Harry's not a cheat.

To me it seems the same as glancing at someone exam while taking the test. You are using their brain to achieve a better grade for yourself that you have no understanding nor knowledge of the answer.

That IS cheating.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

But if Harry had been using the standard text he still would have had no understanding nor knowledge of the answer.

And in fact later on in the book Harry tells us that regards the Prince's book as particularly favoured because he "had learnt so much from it", something like that.

So no, I don't agree that what you've said here has any bearing on whether Harry could be regarded as a cheat.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

You can learn the right answer from cheating on a test. That doesn't make it right.