deathtocapslock | A reflection on Horcruces and Dumbledore

terri-testing.livejournal.com posting in

I've argued before that Dumbledore knew from the start that Harry had become Tom's Horcrux.

But, if he were as smart as he thought he were, he should have realized that that fact alone proved that Riddle had others (or some other means of avoiding death when his body was destroyed, and Horcruces do seem to be the only known means).

He deduced that Riddle had planned to manufacture a Horcrux from the baby's death, right? Not either of the parents' deaths.

Therefore, the death that created the soul-fragment that landed in Harry, was Riddle's own from that reflected AK.

If he hadn't already been anchored to life by another Horcrux somewhere, he should have merely died.

So Dumbledore ought to have started looking for another Horcrux in 1981....

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

oryx_leucoryx

He also claims that Tom wanted to kill Harry and make a Horcrux from the death. We get NO indication of that in the flashback in DHs. Was Albus wrong, or did Rowling simply forget?

Canon never specifies whether the making of a Horcrux had to happen immediately at the time of the murder with which that particular rip was generated, or whether the Horcrux making can be done at a later time (perhaps including a ceremony that selects a particular rip in the soul for complete section). The interview answer (that mentioned, among other things, that the ring was Horcruxified with the death of Tom Sr) implies the latter. If that is the case then Tom's plan may have been: Kill Harry. Order Severus to steal the sword of Gryffindor from Hogwarts and bring it to him. Use the rip from Harry's death to make the sword into a Horcrux.

In any case, Albus learned in OOTP that Nagini was a Horcrux. This meant that Tom believed he had yet to complete his entire set of Horcruces. This conclusion stands regardless of Tom's intentions regarding Harry.

I'm not sure that Albus hadn't been made suspicious when he saw the state Tom was in when he came and requested the DADA post. There are probably as few procedures which could result in that general effect as there are monsters that are stone-turners.

Tom was the first to make that many Horcruxes. When he had only one Horcrux he looked almost his normal self, though his eyes flashed red when he got angry.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Unfortunately that interview answer flies in the face of any logic, so I tend to reject it. And while you are right about canon never specifying, the very fact that you even can assign a specific murder to a specific Horcrux would tend to establish that the death and the creation of the Horcrux have to be concurent. Rowling has contradicted herself no shortage of times, but (no, I don't have a link, I can't remember when I read it, but I think it would have been between 2005 and 2007) she did also state that an item to be turned into a Horcrux has to be "prepared" first. We get little indication of any opportunity for such preparation from the account of the Riddle Massacre. Unless we are to assume that a 15-year-old Riddle had already found and studied the procedure for creating a Horcrux before he went to confront his uncle Morfin Gaunt.

I suppose one *might* spin a theory that he went prepared to create a Horcrux from Morfin's death. But he didn't know about the Peverill ring until he actually met Morfin, and only learned his own father's identity from Morfin so the claim that he used his father's death to create the Ring really doesn't sound very convincing to me. And unless such "preparation" is something that can be done on the fly, I don't see much chance that he *could* have done it on the spur of the moment that evening without any pre-planning or materials. The Tom Riddle we were introduced to was never much for improvasation. Elaborate Byzantine plots were more his speed.

The claim that the Diary was created from Myrtle's death is similarly full of holes. I seriously doubt that once an item has become a Horcrux you can continue to add data to it, and yet *all* of the visions that the Diary revenant shares with Harry took place *after* Myrtle had been killed.

Now, I could about believe that Myrtle's death created the *Ring*. We know he had taken possession of that ring by the start of his 5th year--which was the same year in which he later found the entrance of the Chamber. The conversation with Slughorn *could* have taken place during that year rather than the next. All we are given to work with is that he was still wearing the Peverill ring during the conversation, so it had not yet been converted into a Horcrux yet. And Tom could have found the Room of Requirement that year while looking for the Chamber. We do not know just what all those banned, or stolen, and graffittied books stored in that room are. But that he turned the Diary into a Horcrux and then *still kept recording his memories into it* I do not believe. Acto Albus, he found the Ring unwearable after he turned that into a Horcrux. I cannot believe that he would have found the Diary any more cooperative.

Albus only learned of Nagini's existence when Snape reported back after the meeting in the graveyard, if then. It is possible that he only really became aware of her after the attack on Arthur. I agree that that attack is probably what made him suspicious of the degree of control that Tom had over her.

From:

sharaz-jek.livejournal.com

The claim that the Diary was created from Myrtle's death is similarly full of holes. I seriously doubt that once an item has become a Horcrux you can continue to add data to it, and yet *all* of the visions that the Diary revenant shares with Harry took place *after* Myrtle had been killed.

Why not? Tom made the thing, after all, and I don't see why his previous memory-absorbing enchantments on it would be put out of action just because the diary now contained a soul fragment.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Well, it is certainly true that the Diary revenant learned from Ginny Weasley's writing in it. But given that the Diary actively tried to take over anyone who came in contact with it, and that Tom would have hardly been unaware of that, I think Tom would have been more likely to have started a new diary if he intended to continue recording his adventures.

At the very least, he'd have been concerned that the Diary fragment might manage to climb back aboard and reincorporate itself with the rest of his soul. Which is exactly what he *didn't* want to have happen.

But then, I'm rather of the opinion that crafting the Diary into a loaded weapon to raise havoc on Albus's turf is something that didn't occur to him until much later, and that the Diary wasn't the first Horcrux, but something like the 5th. Created shortly before he handed it over to Lucius with instructions to keep it safe and await further orders. I which case, it may have been made from Dorcas Meadows' death.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

I tend to think he made it when he was about 16 because the Riddle that came out of the diary was a young Riddle. I think that was his bodily state when that bit of his soul was ripped off.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Well, that is certainly what we are supposed to think. But while Horcruxes have a disposition, they have limited self-identity (the Harrycrux vaguely recognized Riddle's name, but had no real context for it), and don't seem to have any true self-image or personal memories, since the memories are all in the custody of the "prime". Even the Locket, the only other one we got any chance to observe, only seemed to be able to play back whatever fears it had picked up from the people it had been in contact with. Nothing of a personal history.

Most Horcruxes really aren't much better off than the victims of Dementors. They are self-aware, which the victims aren't, but they have no access to their prime's personal memories, and usually no sensory input since they don't have eyes or ears, and have usually been hidden away for safety. It's small wonder that they latch onto anyone who comes in contact with them. It's their only escape from complete sensory deprivation.

The Diary, however had custody of most of a year's worth of Tom's own personal memories to form a self-image from, and consequently, whenever the Horcrux was created, the image it built would have been that of the 16-year-old Riddle, since those were the only memories it had access to.

From:

seductivedark.livejournal.com

...she did also state that an item to be turned into a Horcrux has to be "prepared" first.

Prepared first before the murder or before the insertion of the soul bit? I haven't followed her interviews since the first (Or, only? I thought there was a second round) of those Owls or Newts she set up on her site. I figured I wasn't that much of a fangurl and the level of those things, how much you were expected to know, creeped me out. (I mean, everyone has lives, Jo, not all our waking moments revolve around ~~you~~ your books.)

Anyway, did she state that the pre-horcrux had to be prepared before the murder or before the insertion of the soul-bit?

I think Tom had studied up on horcruxes before he talked to Slughorn at any rate. He was too knowledgeable about the subject and, IMO, obviously leading the conversation toward multiple horcruxes.

I think that what we're given in canon and interviews just doesn't make sense about how and when to create a horcrux. To me, it would make more sense to commit the murder first, then prepare the container, then insert the soul bit that was cleaved during the murder. It isn't always possible for a murderer to stick around once the deed is done so any insertion at the scene of the crime would either be almost instantaneous ("Hey, buddy, would you stand next to that gleaming gold cup there? Kthxbai! AK!") or would risk the murderer getting caught. And, murder, even for someone like Tom, has to be an emotional moment. I can't see directing magical energy when the emotions are all over the place and off the charts to boot. Leaving the scene, calming down, setting up the elaborate preparation ritual and then inserting just makes more sense. I would think that, to use a specific murder for a specific horcrux, one would have to perform the ritual before one commits another murder. So, if Jr. used Sr.'s death for the ring horcrux, Sr. would have to have been the last of the family to die.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

That is certainly a valid reading of the matter. In fact it's very much the reading that I had of it until fairly late through the series. I'm no longer sure of exactly what it was that convinced me otherwise. But it wasn't until quite late that I was convinced.

Although early/late is a bit of an overstatement, since we only really had the data needed to be able to postulate relevant theories after HBP was released in 2005. I had guessed that he'd made something *like* a Horcrux shortly before that, But I didn't know that it was *called* a Horcrux, nor did I guess how many of them we were dealing with.

But no, we're *not* given data that makes sense on the subject either in canon or interviews and yes, the "most recent murder" is the only way that one could assign a specific murder to a specific Horcrux if the Horcrux were not created concurently. She didn't specify whether the pre-Horcrux needed to be prepared before the murder, or just the insertion. Nor did she ever give any kind of indication as to whether the murder had to take place at the time of the Horcrux creation.

However, since her silly flailing about to come up with a list of murders which created the Horcruxes that we know of included a muggle tramp (the Locket, I think) and an Albanian peasant (the Diadem), suggests pretty strongly that the murder used has to be *quite* recent, or he could have drawn on his Riddle grandparents' murders. For I am quite confident that he had never felt even the slightest shred of remorse which would have reincorporated those soul shreds. Rowling's list (which she modified the 2nd time she gave it out. She first claimed that Nagini was Horcruxed by Frank Bryce's murder and then later changed that to Bertha Jorkins) certainly never supported Albus's claim that Tom wanted *significant* murders to create his Horcruxes. Of course that claim may have simply been to flatter Harry, who he had wanted to plant the suggestion that he might be one on.

To be honest, since about the only non-conventional magic we ever saw Tom involved with was the highly ritualized blood/flesh/bone ceremony, I tend to suspect that creating Horcruxes is also some highly ritualized process, not mere furniture moving. Because that is the kind of grandiosity that appeals to Tom Riddle. And it is no stretch at all to picture him engaging in ritual murder.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

She didn't specify whether the pre-Horcrux needed to be prepared before the murder, or just the insertion.

Or the preparation could be done a while before the murder. Tom could have been carrying a proto-Horcrux in his pocket that Halloween. Though personally I prefer him wanting the sword for the last one (and using Nagini because after years of disembodiment he felt he didn't want to wait for the sword to fall in his hands).

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

I'm a little more inclined to believe that Nagini was created out of necessity. He knew he was going to need snake venom for BabyMort's "formula" and Peter didn't have any way to communicate with or to control a venomous snake. Turning her into a Horcrux meant that he would be able to talk to her, and she wouldn't automatically panic, or savage him whenever he got close enough to milk her for venom. I also think that she was magically enlarged so that she would be able to provide enough venom for Tom's needs.

We have no way of knowing whether he brought a proto-Horcrux in his pocket when he marched up to the Potters' door. If he did, someone must have pocketed it.

Or Albus was simply wrong, and Tom had no intention of creating a Horcrux from the Child of Prophecy's death. We certainly got no indication of it in the flashback. Not a single thought of Horcruxes passed his mind, and we were given that whole sequence from Tom's PoV.

Which I don't find especialy plausible since we were so determinedly led to believe that Harry *was* one. And from a plotting standpoint, his having become one *accidentally* is just plain shoddy.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Of course that means that Pettigrew, of all his followers knew of the existence of at least one of his Horcruxes (Bellatrix clearly guessed that the Cup was, but we don't know whether Tom told her, and she certainly wasn't there to witness him make it).

But that's all right. Pettigrew doesn't share information with *anyone*.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

Or Albus was simply wrong, and Tom had no intention of creating a Horcrux from the Child of Prophecy's death.

Makes you wonder what he *was* waiting for to make that one last Horcrux all these years.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Well, I take the Doyleian view, and just think that Rowling had lost control of the story by the time she wrote the flashback, to the point that she *forgot* that Tom was supposed to be planning to make a Horcrux from the child's death.

She had pretty clearly decided, possibly at the last minute, to stack the deck against the Potters, for whatever reason (no wands at hand? really?), and of course had to cram in a joke ("nice costume, mister") despite the fact that I gather that trick-or-treating hadn't really become much of a British thing, even as late as '81, having lost track of the backstory of what Tom had intended by that murder is all just of a piece with the rest. Everything was just jerked about by the author so the universe could deliver Harry some answers.

For my own part, I think Tom had been fixated on a subborning Gryffindor artifact to complete his set, and had been balked of access to one. I suspect the Sword hadn't made an appearance for generations, and he hadn't remembered that the Hat had been Godric's too. Or, possibly the Hat had never sung about that during Tom's years at Hogwarts, or Tom couldn't be bothered to pay attention to a talking hat. But in any case, he already had the first five by the time he showed up to ask for the DADA post, and probably felt he could wait for the last one. After all, he had all the time in the world.

Of course being handed a Child of Prophesy-- a personal prophecy all about *him*-- made an excellent substitution, and the fact that the child's parents had both been Gryffindors was just icing.

But of course Rowling couldn't be bothered to set that up by then, she just wanted it over.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

Why believe he was waiting at all? If he had a real need for a snake-horcrux in GoF, that might have been enough to get him to abandon his plan for a seven-part soul.

So under this theory, he created six horcruxes before killing the Potters, accidentally created a seventh there (the Harrycrux), and then created an eighth deliberately, believing it to be the seventh.

Which again would mean that Voldemort is still not dead at the end of the books. :^P

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

No, he had created five Horcruxes before killing the Potters. Harry's death was supposed to create the sixth, and complete the set for the 7-part soul.

Rowling refused to let him realize that he had actually managed to create one by attempting to kill Harry. Although what he thought their mind connection *was* you will have to explain to me.

On the other hand, the other Horcruxes were all properly made, and had completely separated from him, and the Harrycrux hadn't. He had no such connection with any of the earlier ones. He may have lost enough of his smarts by then not to realize that the connection with Harry indicated that the attempt to create a Horcrux had in fact succeeded.

Consequently what we really need to know on the subject is what Rowling never told us. Which is; how did his connection with *Nagini* actually work. Since she was his other living Horcrux. Albus claims that Tom was "possessing" her when she attacked Arthur Weasley, and Harry had been dragged along for the ride. But we do not know how the link functioned in general. Nagini would not have had the pain reflex upon contact certainly, or she would have hardly been so willing to cooperate Clearly the connection with each was sufficiently different that he never got suspicious of the nature of the connection with Harry.

I happen to think Harry's pain was the result of Lily's interference, although Rowling didn't write Lily's murder in any way that would explain how Lily's unwillingness to step aside would have interfered with anything Tom intended. Particularly not with anything he intended after her death. My own theory accounts for this, but Rowling quite directly never endorsed my theory. Unfortunately she didn't replace it with anything that would actually work for any reason beyond "because i say so".

From:

oryx_leucoryx

Rowling said the pain was the result of the soul-bit trying to reunite with the main soul. In this case, it may be a unique property of an unfinished Horcrux. The soul bit in Nagini was removed properly, no damgling ends remaining so Nagini's experience may have been different.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

That defintily works and is pretty much what I postulated when I theorized that Lily's interferance was a bit more *active* than Rowling's.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

Under this theory, since in the great hall he was once again hit by his own AK, is it possible he lost yet another soul-bit? Maybe one of those present became yet-another unfinished Horcrux.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

Given the shoddy reasoning that Rowling has palmed off on us, the possibility certainly exists.

Of course in the Great Hall he left a body, and he wasn't killed while *trying* to create yet another Horcrux.

That's the broken link that Rowling should have remembered. Tom was *supposed* to be trying to create one when he first attacked Harry, and she forgot to write that.

You just do not create Horcruxes accidentally. Harry became a Horcrux because the attack on him was an attempt to create one. That he became one was no accident, that the soul fragment ended up stuck *in him* was.

Of course by my theory there wasn't any place else for it to be. But Tom must have thought that he's lost that fragment in the event, or otherwise never put 2+2 together.

Or he realized that Harry's link to him was just too dangerous to his own plans and was prepared to undo that one.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

Why no other place for the soul fragment to be? The room must have been full of objects: the crib, blankets, Harry's clothes, toys... heck, Lily's dead body.

I've heard the theory that after creating a certain number of horcruxes, soul fragments will invariably attach to living beings. Is that your theory? It's another way of making sense of the Nagini horcrux, but I think I prefer the explanation for that that you gave elsewhere in the thread.

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

I'm talking about my own take on how one creates a Horcrux. Rowling doesn't endorse it., and she clearly never antcipated it.

The process is actually remarkably simple--although nasty-- but it depends upon a specific magical skill which Tom Riddle amply demonstrated a mastery of, and no one else in the whole series was ever hinted at being able to do. (And no, I don't mean flying around like Superman. Snape is hinted at being able to do that.)

If Horcrux creation was something only ever done by wizards of "a certain caliber" then it's covered.

The theory is covered (in exhaustive detail) here:
http://www.redhen-publications.com/Changeling.html

The actual nuts-and-bolts of the theory of just how one creates a Horcrux however, is fairly short--although I don't know whether it's within the limits of an Lj post. I'll try. There are a lot of additional ramifications in the essay. Such as what Lily did, and what the result of that seems to have been.

"Riddle has at least one other presumably rare (although never stated in the text as such) ability, however. One which he kept even after his defeat, and probably kept to the end. Even as a thing of shadow and vapor; a disembodied portion of a soul, he retained the ability to take possession of others. Not merely to dominate them and bring them under his control by force of will, but to take full psychic and physical possession of them. Indeed even the soul fragment that haunted the Diary was able to take such possession of Ginny Weasley, ultimately even against her will, and over her resistance. Another such fragment came very close to overmastering Ron.

That doesn’t sound nearly as innocent as chatting to snakes, and I am indebted to the LiveJournalist Swythyv for giving me a timely nudge, reminding me of this particular detail.

So let’s follow this particular line of inquiry a bit further shall we?"

(snip)

"However. One evidently cannot just split off a piece of their soul and put it directly into an inanimate object, or murder would not be necessary in order to produce a Horcrux. And it is also quite blindingly evident that the typical method of getting a soul out of a body is by killing the body that houses it.

But what if the soul in that body is not the Victim’s? Or, rather, what if the body in question contains not only the Victim’s soul?

What if the Murderer takes possession of the Victim before killing him. What would become of the portion of the Murder’s soul that is possessing the Victim at the point of death?

It would get split off, wouldn’t it?

Thank you, Swythyv. I think you have just solved our fundamental problem."

From:

jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

I further postulate that in a Horcrux creation that goes as it's supposed to, the fragment is caught in the artifact prepared for it as it attempts to rejoin the Prime. Since the Prime is still alive it is not drawn through the Veil, but attempts to rejoin the rest of the bundle.

It's up to the Prime to prevent this. IN Harry's case, Tom had lost control of the spell and was in no position to do this, and the fragment no longer had an embodied Prime to orient on. So it stayed where it was.

A reflection on Horcruces and Dumbledore

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