GOF Chapter 7: Bagman and Crouch
Feb. 12th, 2011 08:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockThis chapter brings wizards' mental block against Muggle clothing to ridiculous levels. If they know enough about the clothes to recognize the names of the items wouldn't they have seen enough Muggles to know what to wear with what?
I can understand wizards not *trusting* paper money, but how hard is it to figure out the value? Yes, there are numbers right there, on the bills. Of course wizards don't learn math at school (except for the few who take Arithmancy) so perhaps they are mostly innumerate.
Over a year ago Harry saw Lockhart wiping his own memory clean. This enables him to recognize that Mr Roberts just had his memory modified. And it doesn't creep him out because Mr Roberts maintains enough functionality to hand out maps. Even after 10 zaps a day. For 2 weeks. Anyway, it keeps him 'happy'. Yikes!
In between the lines of Arthur's assessment of his friend Ludo I get that Bagman spends his work time boasting about his Quidditch days and letting others do his work. And Arthur is enchanted with his enthusiasm. I can see Auror!Ron in the same pattern - talking a lot about his wartime adventures and not doing his job. Percy who actually does his work is the one who eventually gets ostracized.
There's a tent with live peacocks! Is that the Malfoy tent?
Harry had never been camping in his life. Don't you worry, Harry! In three years you'll catch up!
Perkins' tent looks like Mrs Fig's apartment and smells of cats! The source of theories about the Perkins-Figg connection that went nowhere.
Wizards can get water and fire by magic, but Arthur insists on doing it the Muggle way, ostensibly for security (as if Mr Roberts would notice), but of course really for fun. He's like a medieval re-enactor. Which does not explain why the trio in DH gathered firewood. I'm wondering under what circumstances Arthur had the chance to see Muggles camping (and what was left of their brains when he left).
Harry realizes there really were witches and wizards in other countries. He thought Charlie and Bill worked abroad with other British folk, right? All those History of Magic lessons and international laws should have been a hint. Let alone yesterday's conversation about Quidditch teams from several countries.
African wizards roast a rabbit, looking appropriately at home in the wilds, but their fire is purple, so it's probably magical. What's the story about the Salem witch hunts in the Potterverse? There really were witches in Salem and they let innocent Muggle women get killed as part of their cover-up?
Seamus is there with his mother and his best friend Dean. Mr Finnigan isn't there because he is a Muggle, and as we will be told next chapter there are Muggle-repeling charms around. We don't know what happened to Mr Finnigan after recovering from the shock of discovering he was married to a witch. Is he still around? Did he leave in terror? Did his wife kill him? Did she wipe or rewrite his memory? Does she keep him under some form of mind-control? Another interesting tidbit - Mrs Finnigan takes no notice of Harry whatsoever. Not fussing over The-Boy-Who-Lived is the mark of evil, I tell you!
Archie likes a breeze around his privates. Real wizards don't need underwear, graying or otherwise!
Harry sees unfamiliar teenagers. In 2 years time he won't even recognize his own House members by sight, but here he realizes they just might not be from Hogwarts at all! The wonders never end! Hermione knows about foreign wizards and schools because she must have read about them. Yes, and paid attention, and applied some basic logic. Ron knows about foreign schools through his experience of growing up in a wizarding family, which is expected. But soon enough we will discover the holes in his education. Has anyone ever compiled a list of things Ron knows from home vs things one would expect him to know but he doesn't? That could be an interesting insight into the home life of the Weasleys. Do you think Bill's brothers appreciated the prank his former pen-friend played on him? Personally I think it was rather jerkish, but also something the twins or Ginny v2.0 might pull.
Arthur introduces some of his colleagues, including Bode, next year's red-shirt. But the other Unspeakable, Croaker, is of no significance. Despite readers' expectations (especially after we got told that James and Lily's occupation was 'significant') the Department of Mysteries exists only in order to house next year's McGuffin and the draperies of doom. Maybe when Albus was reinstated as Chief Warlock he ordered that the department close down as it had served its purpose. Hmm, the Head of the Goblins Liaison Office is one Cuthbert Mockridge. Horace Slughorn has yet to pull whatever strings he pulled to get Dirk Cresswell that job. However Horace will go underground the coming June. The timeline just barely works.
A very warm welcome to Ludo - kids, be nice to people who bribe your dad! Percy is well-mannered to a person he does not appreciate professionally. Harry of course sees this negatively. No Harry, that's how normal people are supposed to behave.
Ludo's jingling gold in his pocket shows how enthusiastic he is, completely different from the gold in Lucius' pocket clinking as he moves (next year)!
Not being a gambler I might be getting this wrong, but if Agatha Timms bet half of the shares in her eel farm on it being a week-long match, and the game ended that night, doesn't that mean Ludo came to own half an eel farm after the game? Wasn't that enough to settle at least his debt to the goblins?
Fred and George aren't of age yet, but their father can't stop them from gambling their entire savings. And Ludo interferes with Arthur's parenting for the sake of landing another bet. A really swell guy!
Crouch is working hard. Bagman is having the time of his life not working - despite the event in question being a sport event and therefore squarely within the jurisdiction of his department.
At the mention of his boss' name Percy stokes the fire to make tea. It comes across to me as Percy's sincere expression of admiration, not deliberate sucking up. Of course without knowing Crouch's dark secret he does come across as very professional, very competent and even caring for a former underling who must have run into trouble. However it is painful to see Crouch constantly ignoring Percy beyond the bare minimum.
What is the deal about 'Weatherby'? Is it a slip of Crouch's? Is that the name Percy chose for himself? Did Percy ask Crouch not to judge him by his father and Crouch is playing along? Looking at Crouch's personality and story-arc as a whole I tend to think the first is the case. Because Crouch has trouble respecting the individuality of his son as well as his various underlings, past and present - Bertha Jorkins and Winky. So not paying attention to Percy's name follows the same pattern.
The Bulgarians wanted to add 12 seats to the top box at the last minute. Did one of them just make an emergency bribe or is this a matter of keeping parity with the hosts (ie they didn't want to be outnumbered by people of the host country, so Arthur's 10 tickets had to be matched)?
Arthur won't let Muggle artifacts such as carpets be charmed to fly. Only cars.
Bagman enjoys hinting and nudging about an event at Hogwarts that would require much organizing. Whatever could that be about?
So 'they' have signed already, but the details haven't been worked out yet. In HBP we will learn that Fudge updated the Muggle prime minister about the intent to import 3 foreign dragons and one sphinx the same time he reported the disturbance at the Quidditch World Cup. Unless this report was much belated, it looks like the details were in fact already quite worked out by the time of the game. Or perhaps Rowling forgot to reread GOF when she wrote that bit.
Ron follows the Weasley school of financial management by spending his entire fortune on souvenirs just before noticing he could have used the money on something more useful.
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Date: 2011-02-13 04:13 pm (UTC)As to the status of secrecy agreement or treaty, whatever the hell it actually is.
I see revolt and revolution in the HP magical world. To me at some point, something's gotta give and I don't see it as something honorable to mind wipe non-magical people when they see magic. I just find it offensive, and there have got to be quite a few magical people somewhere that agrees -
So from my standpoint, the American magical community is against the status of secrecy and I'm pretty sure they broke from the English MOM just like the colonies did from England.
I just don't see the British Ministry being able to control the US magical population; and I will reject the idea if JKR even remotly suggests that it does.
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Date: 2011-02-13 04:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 05:51 pm (UTC)Oh, nono. Thats not what I meant, sorry if I wasn't making myself clear.
My comment was more a futuristic thought/rant for the HP magical world. Thats what I meant when I said 'I see' revolt and revolution. Just sort of imagining something different than the nonsense that was presented in canon.
It was more me being idealistic and my idea of the American magic community doesn't like the status of of Secrecy and that whatever this International Jurisdiction thing is that created it. I believe that whoever votes would have voted against it and continued to vote against it every year.
That is if they have a meeting every year. I don't think JKR ever shows how the treaty/agreement was reached, it's just thrown out there as world development to make the HP universe seem so uber big and rich.
I'm assuming a vote/agreement was taken/reached by each Magical authority from each country. They must have all got together and decided, and therefor enforce it.
But hell, if American magical community decided to go against it. What the hell is the MOM in England going to do, Invade the USA?
Maybe thats what happened when the Beatles came over, they were MOM spies sent to mind wipe the american population! LOL!! (am just being silly now)
So I'm not saying the USA is not under the jurisdiction; I was more pondering a future idea they'd be pushing for, open magic, freedom from having to hide, etc.
I think it's more of a rant because whenever the USA is brought up I'm always reminded of that comment JKR made about the British royalty marrying an American (I forge the exact quote now) It was like she was making a joke but it annoys me for some reason and then the salem thing feels so...common and cliche', it just sorta ranks my nerves. So I get ranty when American history is trimmed down to some sorta cliche joke.
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Date: 2011-02-13 07:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-14 02:14 am (UTC)LOL!!!
Actually before DH came out I had already started my fic...and I did send Harry to American for a little while.
But alas, he does not remember the trip at this point in my fic.
OU wait, would that be considered a fictional burn, considering I took Harry's memory away from him.
Yea, take that Harry Potter!
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Date: 2011-02-14 06:44 am (UTC)Should we be expecting the Weird Sisters to start touring the US soon?
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Date: 2011-02-14 02:11 pm (UTC)Should we be expecting the Weird Sisters to start touring the US soon?
LOL! Well, we do have evidence in canon to support musical bands. So when they can't make it in the wizard world maybe they go out into the muggle world and 'weave a magic spell' so to speak.
For the magical world fanfic ideas, maybe Elvis was a wizard to and HE died fighting a dark wizard instead of how he actually died! =) OR maybe He's not dead (lol)and he's returned to the wizard world and thats why some muggles still claim they see him.
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Date: 2011-02-13 09:01 pm (UTC)As much evidence that it is inside the jurisdiction.
"International" only means two or more countries are signatories, not necessarily that every single country in the world is.
Rowling implies that "every" country falls under the jurisdiction, but in fact she doesn't provide proof...and quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that every single country in the world would agree to it, or that countries that had originally agreed 300 years ago would necessarily have decided to remain in the confederation over the ensuing years.
Look at the United Nations: not every single country in the world is a member, and even with countries that are, you often find a country ignoring sanctions or resolutions passed by the UN.
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Date: 2011-02-13 05:51 pm (UTC)THIS.
Makes me wonder if there's a wizarding equivalent of William Wilberforce, because I am pretty sure someone must think the subjugation/degradation of most of earth's population is wrong. Somebody who is more heroic than JKR's so-called heroes.
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Date: 2011-02-13 05:57 pm (UTC)Give me liberty or give me death!
I say, ask the Minister of Magic over in England if those colonials were just talking about muggles =p
It would be so cool if the American Magical Authority couldn't stand the English one. NOW THAT would make for an interesting read if you ask me.
Lets all see what was going out outside of Harry's head and his country.
I say Hogwarts brainwashes it's kids to believe the MOM and Hogwarts are totally AWWSOME and in control.
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Date: 2011-02-13 10:11 pm (UTC)Karen and I have actually had many email conversations over the years on this topic...
In my mind!canon, it seems to me that the majority of wizards or witches who'd have immigrated to America would be those who would be on the lower levels of society -- much like their Muggle counterparts. Granted, at the very beginning you did have non-firstborn sons of minor Muggle aristocracy trying to make their fortune by gambling on ventures in the New World (plantations, mining, fur-trapping), and conceivably a younger son of a well-off wizarding family might also be adventurous enough to make the sea voyage west.
But the bottom line is that most immigrants were not from the upperclasses, and if someone -- magikal or not -- had a comfortable life, they were unlikely to take the physical and financial risks of leaving everything behind to head into an unknown.
So you are left with people who would have thought immigrating would afford them financial opportunities that were not available back in Europe; people who were on not the best of terms with the legal authorities, and figured escaping to the colonies would be their best bet; and in the case of the magikal community, perhaps people who did not agree with the political repression of MoM/Wizanmagot, and thought traveling somewhere beyond the reach of the European wizarding world's network of owls/floos/broom travel would afford them the freedom they lacked at home.
BTW, does anyone know if there's a distance limitation on apparating? Could someone apparate from London to Boston?
Anyway, I feel that any wizards or witches who were in the American Colonies in the 1760s and early 1770s would probably have been strong supporters of those radicals in Boston who started calling for revolution.
And hey, is it just coincidence that those Boston radicals held their meetings in a tavern called The Green Dragon? ;-)
Outside of the American colonies, as I stated in my other post, I think that magikal folk outside of Europe would have resented being told after openly associating with, and in some cases actually working for, non-magikal neighbors and/or rulers, that they were now expected to ghetto-ize themselves and make Muggles believe that they don't exist.
Like I said before, if your people have happily traveled by flying carpet for centuries, and perhaps even made a living by it with Muggles, you're not going to be happy suddenly being told by European overlords that you can't do it any more.
I think in some cases, adherence would be sullen at best, and totally ignored at worst. I think this would be even more likely in countries in the East that had millennia-long traditions of Muggle rulers being assisted by magikal folk and magikal beings...they may have given lip service to complying with the Statute and other rules, but then covertly maintained relationships between magikal and non-magikal folk.
And when non-magikal folk of European colonies started revolting for freedom after World War 2, you can't tell me magikal folk of those same countries wouldn't have taken interest and wondered why they should still be under the rule of European wizards, too.
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Date: 2011-02-13 07:11 pm (UTC)Besides, my theory is that wizarding Britain is the magical equivalent of somewhere like China or North Korea, and everyone else is just humouring them because they don't want another war after Grindelwald. The Triwizard Tournament was the Ministry's attempt to claw back some international respect, and after that failed no one really wanted anything to do with them, which helped push Fudge down the road of denial in OotP. (Observe also that Fleur married someone who had left the country at the first opportunity.) I bet the rest of the world doesn't have to deal with goblin rebellions or has statues like the one in the Ministry.
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Date: 2011-02-13 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-14 01:47 am (UTC)Well, it's sort of like asking me about English History, I know the general stuff. I have a feeling that JKR may just know the general stuff about American history.
Or, she was just being cliche' in using Salem.
I don't know which is worse. I would have hoped from someone who is claimed to be so amazingly creative that she could have chose something other than or more imaginative than Salem.
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Date: 2011-02-14 02:04 am (UTC)Meh. She was being a product of her electronic times. The old TV show, Bewitched, did a multi-parter on witches in Salem (involved an old bed warmer) and the cat in Sabrina the Teen-aged Witch was named Salem. When it comes to entertainment about witches, people, especially Americans, I think, want a nod in the direction of Salem in the same way a large party dining at a restaurant inevitably gets someone to mutter, "Donner, party of fifty, your table's ready."
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Date: 2011-02-14 02:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2011-02-13 11:38 pm (UTC)I don't think that Karen or I were being America-centric, in my posts at least I made it a point to mention other countries.
But she and I were specifically discussing America because we both are Americans, and our point was regarding what/how American wizards and witches would have felt/accepted/followed rules being handed down by an "International" group that perhaps does not include all countries of the world, including the United States.
Part of our theorizing/conjecturing would center on "The New World" (and this would apply to Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, and the Caribbean islands as well) because of the difficulty in travel back in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
If a wizard in France broke one of the rules, the governing wizarding authorities could get to the miscreant right away. Ditto a wizard scofflaw in Egypt, New Dehli, or Singapore.
But a colonial wizard or witch breaking a wizarding law in colonial Philadelphia, or a town in the Adirondacks, or a cabin in frontier Kentucky, wouldn't be able to be reached by wizarding authorities based in Europe...and very difficult to get to by any American counterparts, if they existed.
For example, in "The Old World", a miscreant will at the very least get a very angry owl letter in a short time after breaking the law. But European wizarding authorities wouldn't be able to send an owl over the Atlantic Ocean.
In The Old World, a wizard scofflaw may find himself visited by authorities via floo; although I don't think Rowling's spelled it out, I doubt that the floo network works over oceans.
That leaves apparation, and we're told that the person apparating needs to be able to visualize the destination. So that means that most European wizarding authorities wouldn't be able to apparate to the New World unless they'd previously made an ocean voyage across the Atlantic. Even then, their knowledge of locations would be limited, they could perhaps apparate to NYC, but then they'd have to travel by traditional means to, say, Buffalo.
The same would be true for Australians, for Pacific Islanders, and basically anywhere else in the world the farther away from Europe one got. If the Japanese, Chinese, or Sandwich Islander magikal community wanted to ignore the international statutes, who was going to enforce any punishment?
I just see those countries that have a vast body of water separating them from "The Old World" -- which would be the Americas, Australia, and the South Pacific islands (perhaps Japan would fit into that category) -- any place not accessible solely by land travel, would have been the hardest areas for the international confederation to enforce its statutes/laws.
Besides, my theory is that wizarding Britain is the magical equivalent of somewhere like China or North Korea, and everyone else is just humouring them because they don't want another war after Grindelwald.
I basically agree with this; I think for all the effort they put into trying to come off as "international", it is really a Britain-centric system, or perhaps Rowling's wizarding equivalent of the EU. But I think any non-European countries that belong just give lip-service to the rules and then just do things the way they've always done them, the rules be damned.
I bet the rest of the world doesn't have to deal with goblin rebellions or has statues like the one in the Ministry.
Well if folktales/myths from non-European countries are any sign, then the rest of the world seems to have traditions of magikal beings of different ilk existing together and often working and cooperating with each other.
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Date: 2011-02-14 12:38 am (UTC)Incidentally, how do you see the wizarding USA deal with the issue of being colonised by multiple nations? Considering when the Statute of Secrecy went into action I'm somewhat surprised that the Wizarding World even acknowledged the Muggle rebellion (though perhaps I shouldn't be given the parasitic nature of the wizarding world).
But I think any non-European countries that belong just give lip-service to the rules and then just do things the way they've always done them, the rules be damned.
Various countries ran successful empires in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries without the benefit of teleportation, so I'm not convinced that international law enforcement would be significantly harder than it is in the Muggle world. Whether or not they're actually enforced is another matter, but I don't think it's as difficult as you suggest. Admittedly, Dumbledore doesn't seem to take his international duties too seriously, though I'm not sure what this says about their relevance.
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Date: 2011-02-14 01:52 am (UTC)My personal!canon is that American wizards and witches would basically reflect the attitudes of their nonmagikal colonial counterparts. Which means some would be staunch supporters of the home country, the rest would gladly join the rebelling colonists. After the rebels won the Revolution, I think there would be a major conundrum for the American wizarding community.
Those who had supported the status quo would have probably move to Canada, or back to England, leaving those wizards and witches who'd supported the Revolution, and I don't see those magikal folk being keen to have the MoM, Wizanmagot, or any International Confederation of Wizards telling them what to do and how to conduct their lives.
As for the dealings of European wizarding folk with the Native Americans, I think that generally they'd probably would tend to have had better relations than did nonmagickal Europeans...
But when it comes down to it, European wizards and witches would have come here seeking land and opportunities just like their nonmagikal counterparts, and if a particular Native American tribe was seen to stand in the way of their plans, I think wizarding immigrants would have been just as willing to remove "the Indian problem" as anyone else.
Incidentally, how do you see the wizarding USA deal with the issue of being colonised by multiple nations?
Not just colonized...you have all those Africans who didn't ask to come here... :-/
But you may remember that in another post I'd stated that I believed that the U.S. would have more than one "school of witchcraft and wizardry"; I think that we'd have ended up with a minimum of 5 schools, probably more. One reason would be just due to geography, but the other reason I see is that certain regions would just have different magikal traditions based on not only the Native American traditions of the area, but the later European colonization and any influx of African traditions.
IOW, you'd have completely different magikal traditions in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest because of both the Native American traditions, but what influence Russian settlers brought, than what you'd find in the New Orleans, Louisiana area.
And then there's Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands! :-o
Various countries ran successful empires in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries without the benefit of teleportation, so I'm not convinced that international law enforcement would be significantly harder than it is in the Muggle world. Whether or not they're actually enforced is another matter, but I don't think it's as difficult as you suggest. Admittedly, Dumbledore doesn't seem to take his international duties too seriously, though I'm not sure what this says about their relevance.
It all depends on how efficient of a local colonial government bureaucracy is set up, and then, as you point out, if the laws are even bothered to be enforced.
So on one hand you have the possibility of there not being any local enforcement agency being in place; OTOH there's the possibility that even if a bureaucracy has been established, that those ensconced in the bureaucracy don't give a damn about bothering to enforce any laws/statutes.
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Date: 2011-02-14 02:30 am (UTC)Yes, in fanfics Snape always has to end up with a hot American woman. =p
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Date: 2011-02-14 07:03 am (UTC)Then among the Jews - there has been a long tradition of miracle workers, but also a long lasting dispute between them and those of the rationalist approach. Would Kabbalists and Hassidic Rebbes be wizards? They don't need Secrecy, they explain their powers as a combination of learning and inclination. Neither their believers nor their doubters think of what they do as magic.
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Date: 2011-02-13 08:53 pm (UTC)I just don't see the British Ministry being able to control the US magical population; and I will reject the idea if JKR even remotly suggests that it does.
I think there would be an even bigger problem in other British colonies which had hundreds, if not thousands, of years of history of magikal beings openly interacting with nonmagikal people, especially rulers, and in fact had a culture where magikal people/beings were honored and actually were sought out for their skills. To have a British/European political institution suddenly dictate that magikal and nonmagikal people not only had to segregrate themselves, but mindwipe nonmagikals if perchance they happened to see magik being performed, screams of colonialism, if not outright racism.
IOW, "We Great White Magikal Masters know better than you poor brown and black folk how best to interact with the great unwashed Muggle horde!"
It seems to me that in certain areas outside of Europe the Statute would have just been ignored, and business-as-usual would continue; or the Statute would be begrudgingly adopted, but resented.
I mean, when there's been a tradition going back thousands of years in the Near and Middle East of magikally travelling by flying carpet, suddenly being told by European wizarding society that it was now against the law must not have gone over well.
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Date: 2011-02-13 10:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-14 12:41 am (UTC)Was that international law or just British law? I'm pretty sure Quidditch Through The Ages mentions other countries using different methods of transport (though I'm not sure why they'd use the stereotypical vehicles if they were trying to pass underneath the radar).
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Date: 2011-02-14 01:07 am (UTC)