GOF Chapter 8: The Quidditch World Cup

[oryx_leucoryx]

If Arthur's numbers are correct then the QWC stadium is of the order of Wembley stadium (though not as big as the original Wembley). Since Harry's experience of sporting events so far came from TV and Hogwarts I can see why he is awestruck with the size of he place, though I doubt anything else about it was particularly amazing.

Am I to believe Wizarding Britain can afford to have 500 members of its workforce engaged in preparing the stadium for an entire year? Does this work with a population of 3000? Or even 10,000? Is that why there wasn't enough manpower available to catch Sirius Black? Or perhaps many of these were retirees looking for extra income?

Oh how fun it is to mess with the minds of Muggles (people like, say, Hermione's parents) to keep this event secret. Bless them, indeed. Meanwhile Hermione is taking notes on what magic is acceptable to use on Muggles.

Now that we see the size of the top box we realize that Arthur's party takes up about half of it. No little favor Ludo did him.

Wizarding commercial advertisements are just as lame as Muggle ones.

Is that Dobby? No? Shucks. But it's a house-elf at any rate, so Harry was only half-wrong. Doesn't it sound like Winky knew Dobby from before he was freed and started seeking a paying job? What would that mean? Were the Malfoys frequent dinner guests at the Crouch household way back before Mrs Crouch's death? Did Dobby and Winky grow up together? Did Dobby sneak away from Malfoy Manor to the Crouch residence to complain about his evil masters? Do house-elves have some kind of social gatherings? We'll never know now. Hmm, but if Winky knows of Dobby's search for a paying job and had the chance to hear Dobby speak of Harry 'all the time', doesn't this mean he came to the Crouch home (more than once) after being freed? And never noticed the invisible Barty Jr (in contrast with Bertha Jorkins)? Or perhaps he too was zapped with some memory charm (or several)? Might explain some things.

So ill-behaved elves and goblins are to face the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. Is this the same department that dealt with Buckbeak? I doubt it is the same department that deals with ill-behaved wizards. I think the latter are dealt with by the Department for Magical Law Enforcement. I can see elves getting a different treatment - once one realizes they are a slave-class (though Winky expects the same to apply to a free elf), but goblins are free members of magical society, or so I thought. In any case, elves and goblins are classified as beings which is a category that includes those creatures that have the capacity to understand the laws and take part in forming them. Of course, this does not mean they are actually treated equally by those laws, nor does it mean they actually get to participate in law-making.

Winky is sitting in one of the seats and ostensibly reserving the seat next to hers for Barty Crouch, when in fact the other Barty Crouch is sitting in it, invisible. Which means Crouch Sr got a Top Box seat for his house-elf. I'm wondering how that came across to mainstream wizards. Oh, this is Harry's first meeting with the coming year's DADA teacher (though he doesn't even know anyone is there). And Barty's 1st opportunity to see Harry up close (and steal his wand). Now I'm wondering if Bagman was working for Tom after all.

Harry is indignant on Winky's behalf for her having to reserve her master's seat when she doesn't like heights. 2+ years from now Harry will force his own house-elf to go on spying missions for him against said house-elf's preference. IOIAGDI?

Percy can repair his shattered glasses. Meanwhile Muggles invented plastic lenses that are shatter-proof.

We see Fudge, and the Bulgarian Minister. But no Irish Minister in sight. Has the Wizarding World not caught up with the 1920s? Fudge is alone, BTW. In chapter 28 at some point Crouch will ramble about taking his wife and son to a concert with Mr and Mrs Fudge. I wonder what became of her.

The Malfoys make their entrance. All three of them this time around. There have been many men by the name of Lucius in history and in literature, as the wikipedia disambiguation page shows (at the bottom there are links to additional lists of Luciuses), but I tend to think Lucius Malfoy was named after Lucius Tiberius from Arthurian legend, because it seems one of the main reasons for Lucius' existence in HP canon is to serve as Arthur's antagonist, to be compared to Arthur and be found wanting. (This looks even more true in light of aasaylva 's 'Arthur cuckolded Lucius' theory.) In PS neither man is present, but we hear their opinions of each other quoted by their respective sons.  In COS we get to meet each of them individually - Arthur being excited that the twins took the car without permission, Lucius expressing disappointment with Draco's grades - and then they meet and clash at the book store. In this book they are both in the Top Box and in OOTP they are both waiting outside the courtroom for the outcome of Harry's hearing (no, Lucius' ties did not go far enough to grant him entry to the Wizengamot). Their trajectories cross at the end of OOTP - Lucius goes to Azkaban, Arthur gets promoted - and leads searches of Lucius' home. DH shows one thing they have in common - love for their respective families.

(Heh -Arthur and Lucius are like Albus and Gellert, though probably without the love affair - red-haired 'good' guy and a slightly younger blond 'bad' guy.)

Back to chapter 8:

Lucius donated to St Mungo's. He is so evil for (possibly) receiving 3 tickets as a perk in return! He should have done something more wholesome, like, say, help Fudge cover up illegal and harmful acts. Since I am in the biotech field I like to imagine that Lucius founded The Abraxas Malfoy Memorial Fund for Dragon Pox Research, though of course it could have been just  a general donation to the hospital.

No Harry, the Malfoys don't consider anyone from Muggle descent second class (Bellatrix does, but she is still away in Azkaban). Narcissa's visit to Severus' home in HBP seems not to have been the first one. But they do consider Muggle-borns like Hermione to be second class. The way the Weasleys consider Muggles, such as Hermione's parents.

Arthur feels the need to polish his glasses upon spotting the Veela. To see them better? Or to avoid looking at them? This used to be evidence in support for Imperiurized!Arthur theories - or alternately theories about Weasleys being more susceptible than average to mind-control.

Harry notices the Veela - and his mind goes blank. Blanker than usual, that is. This is his first direct experience with mind-control, which will be very important in this book. (And to a lesser extent in later ones.) Meanwhile Ginny thinks, 'when I grow up, I want to be a Veela too!'

Leprechauns give the crowd a golden shower :^ I notice that many among the crowd were rummaging for gold - were they as ignorant as Ron, or were they hoping to find others just as ignorant? (BTW leprechaun gold is explained in Fantastic Beasts, a book Harry and his friends had to buy for 1st year. I wonder if the boys ever read it?)

Veela can be part of human society, can interbreed with humans and are considered 'beings' (don't appear in 'Fantastical Beasts and Where to Find Them'). Leprechauns are capable of speech in human language but are classified as beasts and have never requested reclassification as beings (I suppose because they don't want to be bound by human laws? Not that being a beast helped Buckbeak in any way). Anyone find their use as mascots just a bit icky?

Are all Veela female? Are all leprechauns male? Are they like Pratchett's dwarfs - the sexes are indistinguishable to humans? How do human heterosexual females respond to male Veela? Was Lockhart a male Veela?

Krum is thin, dark, sallow-skinned, crooked-nosed and is likened to a bird of prey. He looks like teen-Snape! And Hermione ends up liking him! Surely she'd find Severus attractive too, once she is a bit older? Alternately - remember those theories about Viktor and Severus being related? Perhaps they are - it doesn't really matter who Viktor is related to. How does a professional player of an outdoors sport get to be sallow-skinned at the end of summer, anyway?

The Irish team rides Firebolts, which automatically makes them worthy of victory. You can skip to the end of the game, we know who has the better brooms.

As an example of the lengths us fans went in attempt to decipher Rowling's supposed 'master plan' I offer you Quidditch World Cup, Shadows of the Future - An essay by a fan who disliked the Quidditch in the series so much he thought there had to be some meaning to them for Rowling to go into such detail about the games. It's still fun to do these things in retrospect: Is Harry's watching the game in slow-motion until he misses events symbolic of how he has no idea what is happening in the war because he is hiding in the tent reading about Dumbles' youth? Is Viktor's skill at flying a foreshadowing of Superman!Voldie? Is Harry watching Lynch's fall in slow motion a foreshadowing of him seeing the extremely long fall of Albus' body from the tower? Is Viktor's broken nose a foreshadowing of noseless!Voldie? And obviously, catching the Snitch while losing the game is what Voldie did with the Elder Wand. But also what Rowling did with Harry's story - she managed to get him to outlive Voldemort while completely denying him convincing growth. (This was not intended to mock SCollins. Most of us were doing this sort of stuff for a long while.)

Ginny hears Arthur telling Harry not to go for looks alone and promptly decides to adopt Veela personality once she can manage it. (BTW, this is the girl who has been flying secretly since she was 6. Notice we hear nothing about her reaction to the game. What does Ginny know about Quidditch?) Of course in Rowling's world all adult women are Veela. The pretty ones do it naturally, the less pretty ones can be Veela by choice, with the aid of a Love Potion.

Viktor throws the game for personal glory. Yet his team doesn't seem to mind - he is still an active player 3 years later. Hermione thinks he was brave. Since Durmstrang becomes a stand-in for Slytherin in this book we can speculate that he too was 'Sorted too soon', just like the grown wizard he resembles.

Fudge receives the Cup on behalf of Ireland. Looks like wizards have their own borders.

Bagman finds himself in debt to the twins, goblins and others. His manner of paying them marks the beginning of his real troubles. How did he hope to get away with it? Maybe he didn't read Fantastic Beasts in his student days either.

Comments

Hermione and muggles

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

>> I just cannot believe how laid-back Hermione is with the wizarding world's overall treatment of Muggles. Her *parents* are Muggles. She'll be up in arms about the rights of house elves, but she won't say anything about wizards routinely mind-wiping people like her parents? Even when we get to the Muggle-baiting scene, Hermione doesn't say anything to the effect of "Those could have been my parents up there!" Just how isolated is she from her own parents, from the community that she's grown up in for most of her life up until now? <<

Hermione is a psychopath, remember? She has the same mental state as Voldemort. She is only conscious of her own desires, nothing else. Notice she is very eager to start practicing mind-wiping ON her *parents*, not merely on any muggles! It was just the same as Voldemort bumping off the Riddles to end his ties to the unworthy muggle world.

I personally much prefer Voldemort to Hermione, not because he has any more integrity - he really doesn't - I suppose because he never made me physically sick just by reading about him.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hermione is a psychopath, remember?

HA HA HA!!! :-) Good one.

No, wait ... you're serious? Urk.

Look, this is wrong for starters:

She is only conscious of her own desires, nothing else.

That's just simply not true. The girl lives and breathes to help Harry; there's no-one in the books more selfless! Furthermore she's keenly aware of his relationships and desires - viz her analysis of and assistance with his amorous designs on Cho and Ginny. She's warm and comforting any number of times. Light centuries distant from "only conscious of her own desires, nothing else".

You can concentrate on the bad aspects of the character ... but that just means that YOU are the one "only conscious of your own desires" (when it comes to critiquing the HEROINE of the Harry Potter books, one HERMIONE GRANGER!). :-)

Notice she is very eager to start practicing mind-wiping ON her *parents*

I didn't notice that. But I did notice how choked-up she was about doing same. POOR HERMIONE!!!

Re: Hermione and muggles

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Notice she is very eager to start practicing mind-wiping ON her *parents*

I didn't notice that. But I did notice how choked-up she was about doing same. POOR HERMIONE!!!



I can't really remember what chapter she talked about changing her parents memory in DH.

But I thought she was having a moral outrage rant at Harry when she talked about it. I can't remember that she brought it up as to share her emotions, I thought she brought it up to show Harry how dedicated she was to coming with him and Ron.

I thought if I remember rightly that she was sorta yelling the info at Harry, explaining what she did to her parents and using it to prove how much she had done so she could come along with Harry on the Horcuxes/Voldemort defeating hunt.

Didn't she say something like, she had told her parents a lot about Harry, or something like that. Considering how little time she had spent with her parents over the last few years, I'm assuming she told them in letters, unless Harry is all she talked about with her parents.

I don't see Hermione as 100% evil but I do have a problem with her mind wiping her parents and to me it comes across as an after thought by JKR to get them out of the way, thats how I read it.

My opinion is it would have been better had the adult magical people been involved. Maybe had a scene of Aurther and Molly speaking with the grangers, maybe they could have been brought along with Hermione. Then the Grangers would have had a say in the whole thing and they could have agreed to go into hiding. And the adults could have helped hermione's parents.

Instead you have a 17 year old girl, mind wiping her parents, changing there identity - basicly taking away free will from two adults. But also setting her up as better than all the adult wizards that are trying to protect her, etc.

And I think we all get it was done to protect her parents. But I still have a problem with how JKR did it, because taking away someone's free will because it's good for them is no different from holding them hostage against their will or locking them up for crimes they did not committ. There is nothing in it that tells me that her parents agreed to it.

And as you say, Hermione is one of the hero's of the story; but that idea and premise only sets up the fact that many people have argued here in DTCL - that the good guys can do anything and we're still supposed to accept them as good guys.

How many bad things and questionable actions can a good guy do till they actually become the bad guy?

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I thought she brought it up to show Harry how dedicated she was to coming with him and Ron.

I thought if I remember rightly that she was sorta yelling the info at Harry, explaining what she did to her parents and using it to prove how much she had done so she could come along with Harry on the Horcuxes/Voldemort defeating hunt.

Yes, the reason she told Harry about her parents in that scene was to impress upon him that she had 'thought through' what was involved in accompanying him on his journey. But she was also quite emotional about having had to 'divorce' herself from her parents:

"Wendell and Monica Wilkins don’t know that they’ve got a daughter, you see."

Hermione’s eyes were swimming with tears again.

Quite the opposite from the callous girl that urbanman1984 mistakenly saw. :-)

There is nothing in it that tells me that her parents agreed to it.

There's nothing either way. They *could* have agreed to it. I used to think such a position was pretty flimsy, but re-reading it right now:

That’s to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me – or you, because unfortunately, I’ve told them quite a bit about you.

... I think the theory that the Grangers voluntarily submitted to the mind-wipe can be supported, as the only defence that muggles could muster against a Legilimency attack from Voldemort and his death eaters. I.e., they agreed to leave the country and allow their daughter to wipe them.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[oryx_leucoryx]

.. I think the theory that the Grangers voluntarily submitted to the mind-wipe can be supported, as the only defence that muggles could muster against a Legilimency attack from Voldemort and his death eaters. I.e., they agreed to leave the country and allow their daughter to wipe them.

Might work against run-of-the-mill DEs, but not the Voldie himself. After all, he was able to break through the memory charm Crouch Sr placed on Bertha Jorkins. Of course most run-of-the-mill DEs aren't Legilimenses in the first place, so just a normal, non-magical, assumed identity would work against them.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Ah, but this is HERMIONE GRANGER we're talking about here! Her spells on her parents (and, remember, they weren't just simple obliviations - recall her words at the cafe after the Wedding, what she'd done to her parents was a different thing entirely!) would be ever so much better done than Crouch Sr's handiwork!

Re: Hermione and muggles

[oryx_leucoryx]

In any case, the memory-wiping does not protect her parents, it protects her and Harry. Moving and taking a new identity protects her parents. But if DEs suspect they are not who they claim to be the parents are doomed whether the suspicions are supported or not. The key is to not attract the attention of DEs, to never have them run across one's path. If the mind-wiped Grangers were suspected by DEs they'd be doomed without even knowing why.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

In any case, the memory-wiping does not protect her parents, it protects her and Harry.

Yea, exactly. Apparently Hermione has to point out that she's told a lot about Harry to her parents. Which I have no idea why that was even relevant for JKR to put in as a reason. The hiding them reason seems good enough, not whatever she stuff she told them about the magical world - but she makes of point of saying its stuff about Harry she's told.

What the hell would Hermione have told that Voldemort didn't already know? Unless JKR is saying that Hermione told her parents a bunch of secrets that Voldemort didn't know - then I have to question just how smart a girl Hermione really is.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[oryx_leucoryx]

Right. The important things to keep from Voldie are that Harry knows about the horcruxes and was on a mission to destroy them. Also anything that would lead Voldemort to such a conclusion - for example the titles of the books she stole from Albus' office. I doubt she told them the former but they may have seen the latter or something else that might mean something to a person in the know (ie Voldie). I seriously doubt there was anything else of significance. Because anything that was Hogwarts gossip Draco or Severus would be able to tell him. So really, she only needed to remove memories from that summer, not her entire life.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

If the mind-wiped Grangers were suspected by DEs they'd be doomed without even knowing why.

Yes. But Hermione and Harry would be spared.

I can quite imagine the Grangers agreeing to flee to the other side of the planet but then realise that, if found, they wouldn't be able to stop the bad guys from *using them* to find their daughter. So they could well agree to Hermione wind-wiping them as an additional precaution, to protect their beloved child. Yes. I'm coming round to this view - versus the Hermione-did-it-without-their-permission stance - more and more!

Re: Hermione and muggles

[oryx_leucoryx]

But what could the Grangers possibly tell Voldie that would lead him to Hermione? Or Harry? All the places in the Wizarding World they hang out in are known - either commonly (The Burrow) or to Severus, supposed Voldie's man. Nobody can track a wizard who Apparates a few times in a row.

Maybe if Voldemort got the full itinerary of all the Grangers' family vacations and sent DEs to ambush Hermione at all those locations? That would really spread the DEs thin.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think you've uncovered yet another flaw/weakness in Rowling's plot.

Hermione says:

That’s to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me – or you, because unfortunately, I’ve told them quite a bit about you.

So she says that they were moved to Australia + wiped to make it harder for Voldemort to track them down ... but the reason she gives for why he would do this is because they know 'quite a bit' about Harry.

So that's why she does it.

Now, if you're saying that you disagree with Hermione, that the dark lord would get nothing out of the Grangers that was of any use ... well, first of all, Rowling dumbed down Riddle a LOT, make him a farce of a villain, so that's one flaw you're biting into. Plus Rowling also dumbed down Hermione a lot - a couple of times in the book she makes an erroneous judgement simply because Rowling wanted her to agree with Harry's course of action - so that's another flaw.

So, really, you're venturing into Rowling flaws #1,254 & #932, not the "Hermione shouldn't have mind wiped her parents in the first place" topic. Given what Hermione says, her actions towards her parents were reasonable.

But on the other hand, who's to know that the Dark Lord wouldn't get anything good out of the Grangers? They might say "oh, sure, Hermione says Harry just *loves* the pizza that he can get at Waterloo station!". And so Riddle assigns a DE watch the station, in case the Boy Who Lived turns up there.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

But on the other hand, who's to know that the Dark Lord wouldn't get anything good out of the Grangers? They might say "oh, sure, Hermione says Harry just *loves* the pizza that he can get at Waterloo station!". And so Riddle assigns a DE watch the station, in case the Boy Who Lived turns up there.

Since when has Harry ever appreciated Muggle stuff? :p

But on a more serious note, you seem to be arguing that Platonic-Form-of-Hermione, as opposed to JKR-Hermione, would have a good reason for mind-wiping her parents. Which may be true, but arguably Platonic-Form-of-Harry would actually be a hero and a good person, Platonic-Form-of-Voldemort would be a competent terrifying villain, Platonic-Form-of-Dumbledore would be a good and wise mentor, etc. Hermione should have had a good reason, but the evidence strongly suggests that she didn't.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hermione should have had a good reason, but the evidence strongly suggests that she didn't.

Okay, so that shifts your ire away from the anti-Hermione crowd saying "Hermione was cruel and callous and horrible and evil for mind-wiping her parents" and instead to "Rowling wrote Hermione as stupid". Which is a different thing entirely.

Stupid/canon Hermione is written as thinking that her parents (a) are in danger and (b) could lead the DEs to her and Harry, so she takes (non-evil) steps to protect them. She's a good girl. A stupid girl, maybe, in a stupid book written by a stupid author ... but not the selfish 'psychopath' that ubanman1984 started out accusing her of being.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

...but the reason she gives for why he would do this is because they know 'quite a bit' about Harry.

This reason does not hold water. In his earlier incarnation as a somewhat-competent villain, Voldemort was capable of mind-raping a woman (Bertha Jorkins) whose memories had been erased by a more experienced wizard than Hermione (Crouch, sr.). There has been speculation that the supposedly greatest wizard of these times (Dumbledore) was able to break through memory alterations to retrieve pertinent information about Tom Riddle's actions (Morphin Gaunt). Jorkins ended up dead from her encounter; Gaunt died soon after the incident and, though we don't know whether the retrieval had anything to do with it, I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore the Great to sacrifice a third-string bit player like Gaunt for the "greater good."

We can assume that Hermione is not aware that Dumbledore retrieved Gaunt's memories since it is never explicitly mentioned in the books but, she did know about Bertha Jorkins and, she is presented as being the deepest thinker of our trio. Since she knows about Bertha Jorkins (and may know about Morphin Gaunt via Harry) we can suggest that she knows that Bertha's memories were retrieved, that the methods used for that retrieval caused Bertha Jorkins pain and suffering and, that their retrieval caused Bertha's death. She also knows that Bertha Jorkins was attacked and killed outside of Britain and that supposedly there are foreign members of the DEs (ref. Karkarov) who may live anyplace in the world.

We can also assume that Hermione is aware that certain DEs have no problem with torture in order to retrieve memories or information (Lestranges/Crouch, Longbottoms). She knows that these people have been incarcerated in an institution where mental damage is not only possible but actively promoted (Azkaban). She knows that Bellatrix Lestrange has exhibited sadistic tendencies since leaving that institution and that Bellatrix is a devoted sycophant of Voldemort's.

She knows that Voldemort was able to access Harry's mind and that Harry has not practiced Occlumency in order to keep him out. We know she is aware of this because she kept after him to practice his Occlumency and chastised him for not doing so. She is aware that Harry's unwillingness to even try to keep Voldemort out of his mind led to the debacle at the Ministry and to Sirius's death.

So, Hermione knows:

1) A wiped mind can be unwiped.
2) The retrieval of wiped memories and information can be dangerously taxing on the subject.
3) Her adversary is not above injuring and killing by-standers and peripherals.
4) Her adversary has followers who enjoy torturing people.
5) Her adversary and his followers are not confined to Britain.
6) Her adversary's crimes have not been confined to Britain.
7) Her adversary has a mind link to Harry Potter and she has just told Harry Potter what was done to her parents and given him their new identities and their destination.

Given the above, Hermione was thoughtless at the least to do what she did and then, she gave the information to someone who has not been able to keep Voldemort out of his mind, in fact, someone who has been unwilling to even try to keep Voldemort out of his mind.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

But on the other hand, who's to know that the Dark Lord wouldn't get anything good out of the Grangers? They might say "oh, sure, Hermione says Harry just *loves* the pizza that he can get at Waterloo station!". And so Riddle assigns a DE watch the station, in case the Boy Who Lived turns up there.

Voldemort didn't need to know Harry's favorite pizza restaurant. When Harry, Hermione and Ron went on the run after the wedding and ended up in a random muggle cafe (and the key word is random)there just happened to be death eaters there.

Which, I take issue with as I don't see how Voldemort could have death eaters in every random cafe in England...but still, the plot in DH seems to suggest Voldie wouldn't need to know Harrys favorite pizza place.

Now, if you're saying that you disagree with Hermione, that the dark lord would get nothing out of the Grangers that was of any use ...

For me, I'm saying that I don't see the supposedly brilliant know-it-all Hermione telling her parents anything about Harry that would compromise the mission. If JKR is saying by that comment that Hermione did tell her parents things like the prophecy or about the Horcuxes or whatever it is she's implying she told her parents; then I think Hermione isn't as clever or brilliant as JKR makes her out to be or either the girl just can't keep a secret.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

There's nothing either way. They *could* have agreed to it. I used to think such a position was pretty flimsy, but re-reading it right now:

That’s to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me – or you, because unfortunately, I’ve told them quite a bit about you.

... I think the theory that the Grangers voluntarily submitted to the mind-wipe can be supported, as the only defence that muggles could muster against a Legilimency attack from Voldemort and his death eaters. I.e., they agreed to leave the country and allow their daughter to wipe them.

LOL! So, it's the Argument of, It's nothing to say there is, but it's nothing to say there isn't?

Either way that quote you just posted doesn't give me any evidence that the grangers knew or were aware or even agreed.

The way that quote reads to me is, it is Hermione giving her reason for the memory enchantment she made/used on them. It doesn't say that her parents knew she altered their memories.

Besides, when she begins the explaination she says: I've also modified my parents' memories so that they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins

If it had been something she and her parents decided together I would assume she'd have said something to the effect of, we talked and decided. Not I've done this thing.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

LOL! So, it's the Argument of, It's nothing to say there is, but it's nothing to say there isn't?

As far as I can tell. Urbanman1984 can't tell us that Hermione is a psychopath who ran roughshod over her parents, because they might well have voluntarily agreed to the procedure. We don't know for sure either way.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for other people; thats above my pay grade.

If you will remember I wrote that I didn't think Hermione 100% bad, etc. So I can't answer for another members post on here, only what I write.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Well said.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"Notice she is very eager to start practicing mind-wiping ON her *parents*

I didn't notice that. But I did notice how choked-up she was about doing same. POOR HERMIONE!!!"

I think it's a bit unfair to describe Hermione as "very eager to start practising" on her parents, but at the same time I wouldn't describe her as particularly "choked-up" about it. Yes, she does have a teary scene when she talks about it, but then seems to forget about the matter entirely, and it's never (IIRC) brought up again in the book. Even during the one scene she does seem upset, she is (again, IIRC -- I don't have my copy of DH to check) more worried about the fact that if she dies they won't be able to mourn her, rather than the fact that no-one will be able to restore her parents' memories.

I think that JKR wanted a way to get Hermione's parents out of the way so she didn't have to write about them getting captured/threatened by Voldemort, leaving the Golden Trio able to focus on their camping trip. Really, though, she could easily have written it so that the Grangers voluntarily went into hiding, possibly being helped by the Order of the Phoenix (which would give said Order something to do that doesn't revolve around taxiing Harry from place to place). This would have made Hermione look less creepy. As it is, though, I find it ironic that a series that lays on the Nazi parallels in such a heavy-handed way would have as its main heroine a girl who would fit right into a totalitarian dictatorship. In real life, of course, people like the Nazis don't set up dictatorships because they're pantomime villains who like making everyone's life a misery; rather, they do it because they don't trust people to live their own lives properly, and think that someone who knows better (i.e., the Nazis) have to tell them what to do instead -- for their own good, of course. That JK Rowling can't see how much her heroine-cum-author-avatar's worldview agrees with this is, frankly, a little worrying.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Really, though, she could easily have written it so that the Grangers voluntarily went into hiding, possibly being helped by the Order of the Phoenix (which would give said Order something to do that doesn't revolve around taxiing Harry from place to place).

The main issue is the big, underlying problem of the Grangers being no more than 2-dimensional cardboard characters in the preceding books. Rowling didn't bother giving them any meaningful role in the series, hell, the Muggle farmers whose land gotten taken over for the QWC in GoF had more dimension than Hermione's parents.

So as you stated, come DH Rowling needed a way to get the Granger parents out of the picture, and she came up with the easiest solution.

In real life, of course, people like the Nazis don't set up dictatorships because they're pantomime villains who like making everyone's life a misery; rather, they do it because they don't trust people to live their own lives properly, and think that someone who knows better (i.e., the Nazis) have to tell them what to do instead -- for their own good, of course. That JK Rowling can't see how much her heroine-cum-author-avatar's worldview agrees with this is, frankly, a little worrying.

When you really look at it critically, the whole of her "good" wizarding world is pretty totalitarian. There are no elections for the post of Minister of Magic, Head Mugwump, or any political post we're shown in the books. Rowling's magikal world is neither democratic nor a republic, and those in authority, even the "good" characters, are constantly making decisions for the society as a whole with no apparatus of accountability.

Someone should write a fanfic where everyday wizards and witches rise up in a popular revolt akin to what we're currently seeing in the Middle East (and Wisconsin, LOL!)

Re: Hermione and muggles

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Even during the one scene she does seem upset, she is (again, IIRC -- I don't have my copy of DH to check) more worried about the fact that if she dies they won't be able to mourn her, rather than the fact that no-one will be able to restore her parents' memories.

Well, she most definitely was emotionally distraught at the idea of her parents never knowing her again, never knowing that they'd had a daughter. I think her tears were similar to those one might shed on farewelling one's beloved parents for a lengthy period; in this case Hermione was considering how she might never see them again. At the complete other end of the scale from urbanman1984's view of Hermione. The 'real' Hermione was a caring and loving girl who had (a) taken great measures to protect her parents and (b) was distressed at the idea of never seeing them again.

... but then seems to forget about the matter entirely, and it's never (IIRC) brought up again in the book. ...

I think that JKR wanted a way to get Hermione's parents out of the way ...

... That JK Rowling can't see how much her heroine-cum-author-avatar's worldview agrees with this is, frankly, a little worrying.

Well, it's just the usual story with Rowling not thinking her story through, with her waving away any such issues of depth with a simple and superficial treatment. Rowling just wasn't interested - or couldn't see - probably both - such details.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[oryx_leucoryx]

You know, urbanman1984, the young Hermione you wrote as a minor character in 'Dragon Pox' is one I find both in-character at the relevant time in canon and sympathetic. I think in canon she only starts her transition towards the Umbridge way of thinking somewhere in GOF. One of the things I'm looking out for in this reread, in fact.

Re: Hermione and muggles

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Thank you for reading, I hoped you liked it.

I enjoyed writing it, but it was primarily a way of practising storytelling which is why certain plot lines don't go anywhere and certain other parts seem raw. It's sequel, The Longest Night, was a self-contained story mapped out in my head before I began writing it. I had by then decided which parts of Dragon Pox I liked in retrospect and which should be discarded. I still liked the protagonist, her best friend and the friend's creepy dark witch shadow, so wanted to give them a new context where the three were at liberty to be more themselves. Currently I am writing and illustrating a novel set in my OWN fantasy world with heroines and villains who are derived from Sally, Lottie, Nausea and Deliria. Those four characters are my personal favourite parts of both fanfics.