Questions regarding the Harrycrux

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

“While the magical container is still intact, the bit of soul inside it can flit in and out of someone if they get too close to the object. I don’t mean holding it for too long…. I mean close emotionally…. You’re in trouble if you get too fond of or dependent on the Horcrux.”

(Hermione regurgitating Dumbledore’s books, DH p. 103)

So why were Hermione, and Ron, and Hagrid, and Mrs. Weasley, never “in trouble”?

Why was the Harrycrux not subject to that particular effect?

And how did Dumbledore know it wouldn’t be?


In theory, anyone close to Harry emotionally ought to have been vulnerable to possession by Tom Riddle.

But in canon this didn’t ever happen.

And, presumably, the Twinkly One expected this not to happen.

Otherwise, letting Harry wander among Hogwarts students making friends was the utter height of irresponsibility. (Okay, comparable to the headmaster’s other heights of irresponsibility, but still….)

I tried to float a theory on my own lj that Dumbles HAD expected that people who loved Harry might be possessed by his Horcrux, had therefore arranged magically to reinforce Harry’s canon early (pre-Hogwarts) friendlessness, and had further arranged that Harry’s first friends in the WW be disposable Dumbles-followers (Hagrid, the youngest Weasley scion). I’d even suggested that the events of CoS seemed at first to Dumbles as indications that the soul-fragment inside Harry had flitted out to possess one of the Weasleys, after Harry spent much of the summer there.

But that theory was shot down.

So why was the Harrycrux different from every other Horcrux known in this particular crucial respect (non-flittiness of the soul-fragment), and how did Dumbles know it was?

Or did our omniscient headmaster overlook that danger, and just luck out that the Harrycrux happened to be different?

Ol’ “Power of Love,” after all, is himself so lacking in normal emotional affect that it’s credible that it might simply not occur to him that normal people do become fond of each other, and that this emotional state (when Harry is the object) is precisely the condition which, in theory, should allow Tom’s soul-fragment to possess the fond third party.

Comments

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Um, plot armor? *Ba dum TISH*

In all honesty, I think Dumbles' "lack of empathy" makes the sickest amount of sense. Seriously, I reread the books for a fanfic I was doing (it was a Rose Potter remake, BTW. XD) and really...Dumbles really came down with a case of "eat a dick" in Book 4. That and...Rowling is...a little too much in love with him.

(Sweet Sith, I'm channeling William Shatner. I need help. :P)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

That and...Rowling is...a little too much in love with him.

This, precisely. Sometimes I wonder why I used to love this series so much. I got into a heated discussion before class on precisely this topic, actually.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"This, precisely."

Thank you. :) Seriously, one reason I got turned off the series was Dumbledore telling us *precisely what to think* about Voldemort. (I know it sounds like a silly reason, but...yeah. XD) It's like JKR was telling us, through Dumbles, how the books should be read. (Actually, regarding some of her...interesting interviews, that actually makes a sick amount of sense. :/)

"Sometimes I wonder why I used to love this series so much. I got into a heated discussion before class on precisely this topic, actually."

Not to pry or anything, but care to elaborate? :)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

It wasn't anything that exciting, really, but I was discussing HP with another student (one who was much older than me, I ought to mention) and I said that it seemed like from the way that Rowling set up the story that Harry ought to have died and that it was a copout for him not to. That and I brought up the Hermione mind-raping thing, which I probably shouldn't have but he vehemently defended it anyways. Probably a good thing the professor came in when she did.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Oh.

Well, good for you for sticking by your opinions. :)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I try, though they sure aren't very popular ones. It's only when I stopped being a fan myself that I began to see what a rabid fanbase HP has.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

I know right? And TV Tropes is practically a *breeding* ground for those... *Grumble grumble*

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

For shame, TV Tropes! And I love that site too...

And the worst part is that if you are critical a lot of the time they will bring up the "But she was a single mom on welfare when she started the series and so you should cut her some slack, etc". To me, this means that she ought to have been LESS of an elitist about her world, not more. SO much for trials developing one's sympathy, we're still just all icky, inferior muggles.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

And fat. I forgot fat. I wonder if she has some weird unresolved issues with overweight people or something.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, whatever the reason, Dumbles could know that at least before Hogwarts Harry wasn't making any friends, wasn't developing the skills to make friends or to keep them once made. He had Arabella's reports. Perhaps if she had reported that Harry was the head of the anti-Dudders or otherwise involved socially Twinkles would have had to revise his plans, but as things were there was no need. And then he Sorted into Gryffindor. Either Hufflepuff or Slytherin would have been a problem in this regard, because both Houses *teach* their members to form friendships or alliances. But in Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, if one doesn't make an effort one can stay left alone, and there is no action on the part of the House leadership (Head, Prefects) or membership to connect to the loners.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

So why was the Harrycrux different from every other Horcrux known in this particular crucial respect (non-flittiness of the soul-fragment), and how did Dumbles know it was?

Well, here are a few possibilities...

1. The properties of a horcrux that's alive are different from those of an inanimate object.

2. Lily's protection somehow kept the soul fragment immobile

3. Harry's own soul and/or magic kept the soul fragment in check

4. Harry isn't a true horcrux since Voldie didn't turn him into one intentionally. Thus, many of the magical properties that are usually included when making a horcrux, such as allowing the soul fragment to possess somebody, were not included in the Harrycrux.

5. Some combination of the above

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I've postulated that Lily's protection went beyond Tom not being able to physically touch Harry. The Harrycrux was never able to take him over, or, indeed to be able to communicate with him in any meaningful manner. Tom was able to communicate with him through the connection held open by the Harrycrux, but the Harrycrux could barely recognize its own name.

In fact, it wasn't until after we got the unexplaned idiocy of the amazing fighting auto-wand that the polarity of the connection reversed, itself and the connection of Tom-->Harry became Harry-->Tom. And Lily appears to have had nothing to do with that.

But the question of how a living Horcrux intereacts with the host is a reasonable thing to ask, as well. Tom was able to possess and control Nagini to the point of being able to send her on errands with an agenda to perform. And a fairly complex one, too, if the nonsense in Godric's Hollow is meant to be taken seriously.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I've postulated that Lily's protection went beyond Tom not being able to physically touch Harry. The Harrycrux was never able to take him over, or, indeed to be able to communicate with him in any meaningful manner. Tom was able to communicate with him through the connection held open by the Harrycrux, but the Harrycrux could barely recognize its own name.

My theory is that this may be an important reason why Dumbledore insisted on Harry growing up with the Dursleys and returning there every summer. Lily's magic needed to be "charged" in order to prevent the soul fragment from possessing Harry.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I'm just a bit of the oppinion that Albus considered Harry enough of an unknown quantity (or quality) that he simply wanted to place him somewhere outside the ww, and set a watcher who would alert him if all hell seemed to be breaking loose.

That his watcher was someone who couldn't magically defend herself if it did, is pretty much typical of Albus. But then, I doubt he had a lot of fanboys or fangirls who would be able to pass in a muggle neighborhood. Let alone do it while holding down a job inside the ww. Mrs Figg may have been the best on offer.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Albus mentions her as part of the old crowd at the end of GOF, as though she was an Order member Sirius should know from the war days (ie before his arrest). I wonder what she did before she was assigned to watch over Harry.

I also wonder what magical dirty tricks were used to get her relocated to the right part of Little Whinging just in time. Or if any kind of magical influence was needed to allow her to keep that many cats at a time.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Acto Rowling (in some interview I think, so no evidence in any direction) Arabella was not just the local cat lady, she was breeding cat/Kneezle crosses and making a living from it. So she may have had some kind of licence for the cats. Legitimate or magically forged I wouldn't care to say.

But then, like I say, there is no evidence for it in the text. Strikes me as sort of a piece of "irrational symetry" to have Mrs Figg the cat breeder positioned against Aunt Marge the dog breeder. Harry doesn't particularly care for either of them, which really ought to have tipped us off about what an emotionally stunted and unloving little sod he really is. Mrs Figg may have been warned against letting the boy get too fond of her (or of getting too fond of him) but you would think that being sent off to a household where he had an adult's attention and wasn't being ordered to do all the work would have been something to look forward to.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Wait, sorry, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that after DH you discounted the possibility of Lily's protection having any effect upon the Harrycrux?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

No, no. I'm saying that whatever Lily did, it seems to have had nothing to do with the way the connection reveresed after that stupid flight of the 7 Potters.

The connection still hurt whenever it went active, and I think whatever Lily did had something to do with that, but the pain seems to have functioned as an alarm system. Whenever the connection was active. Tom figured out a way around it after he added the blood bond (which also removed the physical ban on touching Harry) But his work-around didn't always function and the pain or prickling would still get through.

But all through book 5, Harry seems to have only been able to *see* Tom when Tom was pushing an image at him, or was connecting through an external "observation post" (i.e., Nagini--I don't think Harry was feeling the pain during the snake in the Ministry adventure). He only picked up Tom's emotional state otherwise.

After the 7 Potters debacle, the connection went the other way. Harry saw Tom, without Tom's permission or Tom's knowledge. The visions hurt, but the hurt was evidently only on Harry;s end of the connection. Tom was completely unaware of the connection and (if Albus is to be believed) was confident that he had blocked it off.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Oh I see. TBH I had completely suppressed the amazing fighting auto-wand scene. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Was it ever explained somewhere that it reversed the connection, or is that just a theory?

>>>Harry saw Tom, without Tom's permission or Tom's knowledge.

Is this for certain? I was wondering if Tom might have shown Harry at least some of those visions on purpose because he was trying to figure out if Dumbledore had told Harry anything about the elder wand.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

It seems pretty clear from the context that *all* of the videos that Harry got in DHs were inadvertant on Tom's part. I can't think of any reason why he would have wanted Harry to know about any of it. And the broadcasts started up *immediately* after the amazing fighting auto-wand episode, so it seems likely that he had been broadcasting that kind of thing all along, it's just that Harry's reciever hadn't been working, unless Tom had been doing it deliberately.

They were barely dragging Hagrid out of the pond before Harry was watching Tom torturing Olivander. It's like the amazing auto-wand had blown a hole in Lily's protection, and the transmission was now getting through.

Which has one wondering: How much magic was Tom able to do without a wand? Or was he just carrying his own yew wand on him while he was using Lucius's against Harry? Because it's clear that the amazing auto-wand completely demolished Lucius's wand while Tom was flying around like superman.

Is he able to fly without a wand? He suddenly didn't have one. Or not one in his hand.
Is he able to apparate without a wand? We don't know where Ted and Andromeda lived, but I rather doubt that the route was conveniently over Malfoy Manor where Olivander was being held.

About the only vision that is dicy is the flashback to Godric's Hollow, where it is never really clear whether Harry was seeing this through the connection or we had somehow leaped from Harry's head to Tom's without any cause or explanation.

And no, we never were given a satisfactory explanation for the amazing fighting auto-wand. Rowling *needed* that reversal of their connection if she was ever going to manage to get this stretch of the story told at all. So she rammed it in, and did some vague hand-waving via Cosmic!Albus at King's Cross who tied it to the supposition that when Harry had broken contact in the tug of war with Tom back at the end of GoF there had still been a bit of Tom's magic caught in Harry's wand from the connection. No explanation whatsoever on why that bit of magic had remained dormant through the attack in the Atrium, or why it suddenly didn't remain dormant now, or why having a bit of Tom's own magic belch at him while Harry was in proximity would reverse the polarity of the mental connection, anyway.

One can cobble something together, of course. I cobbled a hypothesis that since Tom was using an unfamiliar wand with which to attack Harry this time, he was making an effort to summon up *every* bit of his magic to blast the kid out of the picture with, and was near enough that he called the residue of his magic from the duel in the graveyard as well. If harry hadn't kept tight hold of it, Tom might have gotten the wand off him as well.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Which has one wondering: How much magic was Tom able to do without a wand? Or was he just carrying his own yew wand on him while he was using Lucius's against Harry? Because it's clear that the amazing auto-wand completely demolished Lucius's wand while Tom was flying around like superman.

He does demand Selwyn's wand immediately after losing Lucius'. I don't know if he needed it to stay up or just to fight some more.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

We all know the real reason, of course - Rowling never thought out the horcruxes. She never thought out the series! Each horcrux acts differently. Harry's survives being 'almost killed' by basilisk venom but then is destroyed when he is 'almost killed' by an AK. The diary possesses. The locket didn't, but it exhibited 'One Ring' tendencies. Voldemort himself is repelled by Harry's thoughts of 'love' but the fragment of Voldemort's soul can co-exist right next to that 'love' for 16 years thank you very much. And so on.

Still, for the intellectual exercise, I was going to go with something like danny_sparks's theory #3.

Say a horcrux will possess/influence someone 'close'. Some *one* as in just one person; the one closest to the horcrux. That's why the locket fixated on Ron and didn't taunt Harry as well.

No-one got as close to the Harrycrux as Harry himself. So the effects of the Harrycrux were waged against Harry; people further away were safe.

Of course, that means that Harry himself should have been affected by the soul fragment, but, uhm, well ... yeah. *points at general 'Rowling never thought it through' error, above*.

I’d even suggested that the events of CoS seemed at first to Dumbles as indications that the soul-fragment inside Harry had flitted out to possess one of the Weasleys, after Harry spent much of the summer there.

Nice!! That's an elegant bit of deduction there!

Dumbledore didn't think that, of course, because his author's tunnel vision blocked her from exploring such paths that her characters might reasonably find of interest.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

No-one got as close to the Harrycrux as Harry himself. So the effects of the Harrycrux were waged against Harry; people further away were safe.

Of course, that means that Harry himself should have been affected by the soul fragment, but, uhm, well ... yeah. *points at general 'Rowling never thought it through' error, above*.

Now, that's interesting. Could it, perhaps, explain the boy's rather vindictive, unloving nature? And also why he got worse when he entered the magical world?

But I agree that Rowling didn't really think it through. Heck, she didn't think through the scar-o-vision. As you said above (I think it was you) why wasn't Voldemort using the connection against Harry? And why would anyone around Harry feel safe discussing plans when they knew Voldemort could listen in any time he wanted to?

Oh, well. Nice to encounter another Duane fan, btw. I hope you like Earthsea when you get to it.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Now, that's interesting. Could it, perhaps, explain the boy's rather vindictive, unloving nature? And also why he got worse when he entered the magical world?

That's what I was thinking. Except unfortunately Rowling seems to not want to admit that there's anything wrong with him. Too bad, because this would make for a much, much more interesting story.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I tried to float a theory on my own lj that Dumbles HAD expected that people who loved Harry might be possessed by his Horcrux, had therefore arranged magically to reinforce Harry’s canon early (pre-Hogwarts) friendlessness, and had further arranged that Harry’s first friends in the WW be disposable Dumbles-followers (Hagrid, the youngest Weasley scion).

Aren't pretty much all school residents (or at least the kids) disposable, considering the way he kept letting monsters of all kind into the school, and letting assorted dangers stay around with no action on his part? If the Horcrux is only dangerous to one person at a time what's the big deal?

I’d even suggested that the events of CoS seemed at first to Dumbles as indications that the soul-fragment inside Harry had flitted out to possess one of the Weasleys, after Harry spent much of the summer there.

Do we have any sign he noticed anything wrong with Ginny (or any of the Weasleys) before she was taken into the Chamber? He suspected Harry himself was opening the Chamber with his talent for Parseltongue, but when that was put to rest Dumbles didn't seem to have come up with an alternate hypothesis.