(no subject)

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one a little bothered by Dumbledore? Not only with the fact he could end up in the Guinness Book Of World Records for "Most Incompetent Headmaster of All Time" (though I'm sure there's worse. :P), but also because...he just bugs me. I know JKR was trying to write him as the "flawed Yoda", so to speak (and to be fair, he's nowhere near Yoda. XD), but it's also how...preachy he gets. Towards Fudge, for example. You know, in Goblet of Fire, with, "You place too much importance on purity of blood, yadda yadda et cetera et cetera" -- which considering how he treated Tom Riddle and the Slytherins is...slightly hypocritical isn't it? Probably bad writing on JKR's part, though. :/

Anyways, sorry 'bout the rambling. Thoughts?

Comments

[sunnyskywalker]

Yeah, it's entirely possible that Merope was an abused kid who grew up to be an abuser (although given Dumbledore's track record, it might equally well have been that Tom Sr. thought running off to London for kicks, and taking the the dumb lovesick girl at the last minute with no intention of it being a long-term thing, would be funny - who knows?). That still has no bearing on whether or not she "chose" to die in childbirth, because it's awfully hard to just up and die for no physical reason. All we know is that she did not give up as soon as Tom left, but made a valiant effort to ensure that her child would be safe and cared for. How does this have anything in common with Lily's situation, basically being caught in a home invasion/assassination scenario where she probably thought it was hopeless but would make the gesture anyway because it was all she could do?

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*Nothing*, of course!

Some people on TV Tropes would make the case that "if Lily was selfish, why would she die for her son" -- in all honesty, it wasn't bravery. It was fear. What Voldemort did to her and James was senseless -- if pragmatic -- slaughter that Dumbledore set up so he could later use Harry as a...*thinks* What's the distaff equivalent of the word "damsel"?

As harsh as it may sound, Lily was a damsel. Nothing more, nothing less. Merope held out for her son long enough to get him to some place where he could be nurtured and cared for. The two of those have nothing to do with one another. I think I could have bought this scenario if (a) Lily had actually stood and fought while Voldemort was invading their home and (b) If Dumbledore hadn't ridiculed Merope. Hell, he could have even lightly reprimanded Harry: "Merope's strength was no less than your mother's."

But of course, he needs Harry to play the male damsel when the time comes.

(Sorry if I sound a little harsh, BTW, but the deeper we get into Dumbledore's mindset...*Sighs* Anyone want some drinks?)

[sunnyskywalker]

I have some sympathy for Lily, in that if Voldemort really was so ridiculously powerful and she knew he was prone to throwing AKs, there wasn't a whole lot she could do once she ran out of furniture to throw in front of them (I'm assuming she didn't Apparate out because they had Hogwarts-style anti-Apparition wards up that she didn't have time to take down or something). So in that sense, she knew it was hopeless, and took the one extremely slim chance she saw and made the only gesture she could.

Which still leaves her as basically a damsel in distress, and in a situation nothing like Merope's.

Plus of course Lily and James, being young and apparently way too trusting, probably thought that Dumbledore would do a better job of protecting them. Like, catch the traitor quickly, being a master Legilimens and all.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"I have some sympathy for Lily, in that if Voldemort really was so ridiculously powerful and she knew he was prone to throwing AKs, there wasn't a whole lot she could do once she ran out of furniture to throw in front of them (I'm assuming she didn't Apparate out because they had Hogwarts-style anti-Apparition wards up that she didn't have time to take down or something). So in that sense, she knew it was hopeless, and took the one extremely slim chance she saw and made the only gesture she could."

Well, okay. Makes sense. She still could have stood and fought, though. Like the Duke said once, "Courage is being scared to death, yet saddling up anyway." Even if Lily had gone down throwing *pebbles* at Voldemort...it still would have been better than essentially begging for her life.

"Which still leaves her as basically a damsel in distress, and in a situation nothing like Merope's."

Think Dumbles has...a few issues with women? Or just with Slytherins in general? Or am I reading too much into things? :P

"Plus of course Lily and James, being young and apparently way too trusting, probably thought that Dumbledore would do a better job of protecting them. Like, catch the traitor quickly, being a master Legilimens and all."

Holy shit, *this*.

Seriously, say what you want about Lily and James, but that's just heartbreaking. The thought of, "Dumbledore will save us" -- and then of course, he never does. :(

[sunnyskywalker]

If only wizards had psychology. Then Lily could at least wonder, hey, if Voldemort likes his followers to grovel, maybe groveling really does something for him... well, worth a shot! But I suppose villains like Pettigrew are the only ones allowed to even try manipulation when they're cornered. *sigh*

Oh, yes, there are some issues there. Possibly ultimately self-directed, kid of like Dumbledore, but probably not things she consciously realizes she even has issues with (otherwise they'd be handled more thematically clearly, one way or another).

He even took the invisibility cloak from them. Might have bought them precious seconds. Poor dumb trusting kids :(

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Indeed. *Hugs them both -- before punting Dumbledore out an airlock* >:(

:(

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Seriously, say what you want about Lily and James, but that's just heartbreaking. The thought of, "Dumbledore will save us" -- and then of course, he never does. :(

He even took the invisibility cloak from them. Might have bought them precious seconds. Poor dumb trusting kids :(

It reminds me of that line from Aliens, when Ripley found out one of the crew had been bribed to smuggle back some monsters to Earth, and so what if the ship's crew got killed by them?: "I swear to God, I don't know which species is worse. At least they don't f*** each other over for a share of the profits."

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Interesting point there. Especially the idea that basically, James and Sirius' arrogance (plus Dumbledore's cunning) was their undoing. :)

[sunnyskywalker]

They didn't trust him to be their secret keeper*, but that doesn't mean they didn't trust him to be let in on the secret (via letter or Polyjuiced Peter/Sirius to preserve that secret). He couldn't have revealed the secret, so all's well there.

And considering that it's his own house, it doesn't seem to out of line for them to expect that he could keep a magical eye on it and Apparate over if the burlger alarm went off. Since he's already expecting Voldy and the DEs to go after them enough that they need to go into hiding in the first place, it would just be stupid not to have some sort of monitoring system.

But none of them have ever shown much common sense, because they're too busy fitting into Rowling's agenda. *sigh*


*Though really, why? Sure they know they tricked him about the Animagus thing - but keeping a secret is a different matter. If they know anything about Dumbledore, it's that he can keep a secret, and even at their most suspicious I doubt they believed he would march up to Voldemort and reveal it. You would think that having a super-powerful wizard who spends most of his time in one of the most secure locations in Britain would be an excellent choice for secret keeper.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Don't you mean "Dumbledore's"? ;-)

But really, I see what you mean. :3

[sunnyskywalker]

They're both trying to manipulate us and the plot, so it amounts to about the same thing XD

[oryx_leucoryx]

And considering that it's his own house

Was it? I thought it was supposed to be the Potter ancestral home, in the family all the way back to Ignotus Peverell.

[sunnyskywalker]

Hm, not sure it says for sure either way, but I don't think it ever said the Potters stayed in the village for all that time or that James grew up there, and we know Dumbledore did live there and conceivably could have the house handy for the Order. And I assumed that anyone going into hiding would move into a different house even if they were putting it under Fidelius, because someone could still blow up the location even if they couldn't see the house. But then, they weren't too sensible about any of this...

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/That still has no bearing on whether or not she "chose" to die in childbirth, because it's awfully hard to just up and die for no physical reason./

Why do I get the feeling that JKR has the same view of dying in childbirth as George Lucas does? -_-

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"Why do I get the feeling that JKR has the same view of dying in childbirth as George Lucas does? -_-"

That's a little harsh, but...I'll take it. :3

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to be harsh, but it just seems that both of them portray dying in childbirth as something that one can actually choose to do. Merope "chose" to die in childbirth by giving up because she "lacked Lily's courage," according to Dumbledore. Padmé "chose" to die in childbirth by "losing the will to live," even though the medical droid told Obi-Wan and Yoda that there was nothing physically wrong with her. I don't know, I just find both situations to be dumb and offensive.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

True. :/

In all honesty though, Padme mostly "lost the will to live" because...*sigh* Okay, okay, I'll call logic fail on Lucas too. :/ (Matt Stover's novelization is better about this, trust me. :) /Shameless Matt Stover pimpage. XD)

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem with Padme may have been that the medical droid didn't want to admit that it had put her at an angle such that she had to push the babies out against gravity! What genius storyboarded that scene and built those props?

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

And by genius you mean complete and utter idiot, right? ;-)

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Clearly a genius utterly, completely unfamiliar with the birth process and possibly basic physics as well.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Sorry to ask a silly question, but what are George Lucas' views on dying in childbirth?

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I wasn't being completely serious, since I don't know his personal views about it because I don't know him personally. I was just snarking on the fact that the treatment of Padmé's death in "Revenge of the Sith" is similar to the treatment of Merope's death in HBP. The medical droid tells Obi-Wan and Yoda that Padmé is physically fine, but that there's still something wrong with her. It turns out that she's "dying of a broken heart" and she "has lost the will to live."

In other words, she's not dying because Anakin Force-choked her or because of complications in childbirth, either of which would have been sufficient explanations. No, she's dying because she just can't bear to live anymore. She's so depressed that she gives up. Padmé effectively "chooses" to die. Like Merope, she just didn't have the "moral courage" to live for her children. Which, if one knows anything about women who die in childbirth, is utterly preposterous.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Well...it could also be complications from the Force Choking. :/ Dumb medical droids...

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

So you're saying she was mortally wounded by the Force Choke but managed to hold on long enough to pop out the kids against gravity, and her "losing the will to live " (and just how did the droid measure that, exactly?) is more like "losing the will to lift up a truck under which your child is trapped, having received an adrenalin boost or whatever the cause is that grants people extra strength in real life for this sort of thing"? (Didn't Luke mentioni n RotJ that his mother was strong with the Force, or am I misremembering?)