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[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one a little bothered by Dumbledore? Not only with the fact he could end up in the Guinness Book Of World Records for "Most Incompetent Headmaster of All Time" (though I'm sure there's worse. :P), but also because...he just bugs me. I know JKR was trying to write him as the "flawed Yoda", so to speak (and to be fair, he's nowhere near Yoda. XD), but it's also how...preachy he gets. Towards Fudge, for example. You know, in Goblet of Fire, with, "You place too much importance on purity of blood, yadda yadda et cetera et cetera" -- which considering how he treated Tom Riddle and the Slytherins is...slightly hypocritical isn't it? Probably bad writing on JKR's part, though. :/

Anyways, sorry 'bout the rambling. Thoughts?

Comments

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

I dislike Dumbledore. He is a deeply flawed, manipulative, attention and adoration seeking, sociopaths with gigantic "holier than thou" attitude.
There is not one positive thing about him. Honestly, in war of two evil Dumbledore vs Voldy I think that the Dumbledore is the worst one.
Sure Tom is "pure evil" (don't get me started on villains that are born evil or that do thing for evil) but at lest he don't expect his victims to love him and be loyal to him. *roll eyes*

If I never read any of the JKR interviews I might have went on cheerfully hating him, but thinking that maybe there is a bigger image and readers are supposed to see him as a negative character but... *sigh*
Dumbledore as a god figure? As a paragon of "pure good"?
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

To me the surest sign that a character is a pure monster is there (dis)regard for people. If a character is seeing people as a means to an end and pawns in their own chess game they are monstrous.

Dumbledore?
He doesn't have one healthy, warm or normal in any way, relationship with any of the other characters. None.

He have sycophants, awed admirers, people indebted to him and people that are in some kind of servitude to him.
How exactly is he the Greatest Light Wizard?
From everything he does / doesn't do (like actuality protecting the children entrusted in his care, finding Harry a nice stable home, helping Sirius, treating Snape as a human and not as a tool,....) it only natural to see him as a dark wizard.
True he is not using dark magic but I do think that a person can be just as destructive with their actions. No need to use anything dark when you can manipulate things without ever directly getting involved.

The examples of his disregard of everybody else are too numerous to count.

Harry who ends up naming his child after him? He could have named another child Tom Marvolo to continue the collection.
Yes, Tom did kill his parents and he did his best to kill Harry but Dumbledore orchestrated his whole life in an attempt to make him as miserable and controllable as possible.

Sirius, who goes pretty much insane under Dumbledore's tender care. And dies as a fugitive because Dumbledore couldn't be bothered to help him clear his name? And why would he?
As a escaped convict he was much easier to control and it would do for him and Harry to form a stronger relationship.
Btw. I remember being disgusted by the fact that In Goblet of Fire Sirius lives in a cave and survives on eating rats.
How hard would it be for Dumbledore to send him an elf with food every week or two?

All Hogwarts students who learned that it is unimportant how many points they earn, Gryffindor / Harry will win in the end?

Slytherins who are hated simply for being sorted in their house?

Order of Phoenix who have less dignity and integrity then the Death Eaters? They are not branded but they are brainwashed. Btw. Isn't it strange that nobody in the order ever question Dumbledore? Or that all people in the order are in the first place loyal to him?
And how is it that (beside the Moody and Minerva) there are no "older" members of the order? Everybody in the order was at one point taught by Dumbledore (when he was still a teacher) or had him as the Headmaster for years.

Severus Snape? I'm not even going to start listing in how many ways Dumbledore destroyed his life.

[sunnyskywalker]

You know, this reminds me of the movie The Curse of the Golden Flower. While I was watching it, I kept looking at all the Emperor's decisions - made because that's what his position required, essentially - and found myself thinking, "Wow, authoritarianism and patriarchy wreck everything, even the guy who's supposed to be at the top" (since he wasn't very happy and lost just about everything he had left to care about). Then I watched the making-of documentary, and the director basically said that was the point. The Emperor chose to put himself in this isolated position where he couldn't relate to anyone as an equal, and that position slowly became a trap for him that he couldn't escape and destroyed everyone connected to him - and him too.

There's a lot less emphasis on the patriarchy aspect with Dumbledore (although he does go for the grandfatherly "head of the clan" role in a way), but the isolation at the top and increasingly ruthless decisions, paranoia, and secrecy required to keep him there look pretty similar. Even the excuse that it's all to restore order to the country, sort of.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*Hasn't seen CURSE OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER. Really should*

Very interesting observation, sunny. :) *Wonders why the hell Rowling didn't go that route* Seriously, when your mentor could make a more interesting villain than your main villain...it's probably time to go back and rethink your storyline.

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

I think that is a similiar theme in Dune, concerning Paul Maud'dib Atreides, who does atrocious damage with whatever he does, no matter how humanitarian he tries to be, and he is incidentally worse than the emperor he overthrows and judges as evil.

In Star Wars, it's a given, heh heh!

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

It is. XD

Only in HP, I think it's pretty much unintentional. :/ *Is possibly being redundant* XD

[oryx_leucoryx]

The weird thing about the Dune saga is that while I can be impressed with the various sides' intrigues I never know whom to cheer for. Well, maybe Duncan Idaho. All of him.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*This*, just this! :D

(Although maybe Dumbledore thought sending a House Elf to Sirius' hideout would be too conspicuous? Come to think of it, why didn't *he* help Harry and Hermione prove Sirius' innocence to the Ministry? I...Jesus. >:( )

[oryx_leucoryx]

Elves can Apparate and disapparate from/to Hogwarts directly to Sirius' cave. Who would notice?

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Good point. :)

But still...why didn't Dumbledore try and help out Sirius when he was about to be Kissed in PoA? Oh right...he needed Harry to play the damsel. XP

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Sending an elf wouldn't be hard or risky.
All of them are loyal to Hogwarts and to DD. He would only need to tell one to apparate/ disapparate without being seen every few days when he is taking food / necessities to Sirius.

*snort* When did he help anybody when it didn't give him an advantage / suited him in any way?
Sirius was a threat. He was Harry's godfather. And he would have had a much stronger connection to him, and similarly bigger say in Harry's life ih he was a free man.
Dumbledore wasn't about to let any adult replace him as a more important figure in Harry's opinion.

The whole "go play with time, risk getting savaged a werewolf, or getting Kissed" quest he send Hermione and Harry on never made sense to me.
For somebody as all-powerful and all-knowing he sure needs to send kinds to do dangerous work a lot.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"*snort* When did he help anybody when it didn't give him an advantage / suited him in any way?
Sirius was a threat. He was Harry's godfather. And he would have had a much stronger connection to him, and similarly bigger say in Harry's life ih he was a free man.
Dumbledore wasn't about to let any adult replace him as a more important figure in Harry's opinion."

That...makes a sick amount of sense. D:

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

This turns DD into a creepy, possessive lover, almost. *creepy*

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

For somebody as all-powerful and all-knowing he sure needs to send kinds to do dangerous work a lot.

OMG, it just clicked. Ever read "The Secret Agent?" The one by Joseph Conrad. They sent that mentally-challenged boy out with a bomb. That was the deal-breaker for me. The agent, his superior, both needed to fry long and slow in a backyard bar-be-que. I was really happy with what the agent got for it.

[oryx_leucoryx]

And how is it that (beside the Moody and Minerva) there are no "older" members of the order? Everybody in the order was at one point taught by Dumbledore (when he was still a teacher) or had him as the Headmaster for years.

Well, for the sake of picking nits, there's his brother, Aberforth and his classmate, Elphias Doge. But Elphias must have been a suck-up since their school days, and Aberforth was never really involved with the rest of the Order, he just followed members of the criminal element from his pub and bought the stuff Mundungus stole from 12GP. Also notified Percy, maybe others, when it was time to come to Hogwarts to fight. When Moody showed Harry the Order photograph he mentions that the day the picture was taken was the only time he ever met Aberforth (until then - they met again at Albus' funeral).

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Regarding Elphias, to be fair, love is blind. :)

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

True.
But Elphias Doge thinks the sun shines from DD's behind. And maybe I'm seeing things but I don't think that DD ever considered him an equal (heck, I don't think he considered anybody an equal) or a true person at all. More like somebody mildly entertaining that worship him and sing him praises.

Aberforth is different he obviously dislikes DD and isn't afraid to show it (I do wonder was it his decision to have no contact with other order members or had DD told him to stay away? Can't have DD's brother telling bad things about him to order) but the problem is the way he is shown.
JKR in the books and in her interviews strongly hints that Aberforth a petty criminal, uneducated, have inappropriate "relationships" with goats, and bitter / envious of his brilliant brother.
The things he says against the picture of the sainted DD are presented more like the testing of Harry's faith than anything else. :(

[oryx_leucoryx]

JKR in the books and in her interviews strongly hints that Aberforth a petty criminal, uneducated, have inappropriate "relationships" with goats, and bitter / envious of his brilliant brother.
The things he says against the picture of the sainted DD are presented more like the testing of Harry's faith than anything else. :(

Oh that's what it's supposed to be? Because I find him a cool character with a decent heart and realistic view of his brother.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

I like Aberforth as well. I think the only reason Rowling dislikes him is because he doesn't let Dumbles get away with murder. (Seriously, as a Gryffindor, you can Imperio a goblin and walk away without so much even as a slap on the wrist, but in Slytherin...so much as even step on the Headmaster's toes by accident, and you're basically doomed. Is it just me or is the Wizarding World's priorities a little messed up? /Nash mode.)

IOIAGDI

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

I know this may be a redundant sort of comment, but... It's OK If A Gryffindor Does It. That sums up the morality of the series well enough.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Agreed.
I like Aberforth, but I don't think JKR wanted us to like him.
Heck, the women is still in denial with her talk : "I don't understand why anybody like Snape! I wouldn't invite him for diner."

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Point. :/

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

(...Can't have DD's brother telling bad things about him to order)

Then, that letter Lily wrote to Sirius, where she talked about *something* Bathilda Bagshot told them about DD (the second page being missing would have had the news about him and Grindelwald on it)... Just trying to form the thought here but, James and Lily heard something presumably bad about DD and told Sirius. James and Lily die. Sirius is locked away and, when he's free again, DD doesn't help him clear his name. Could this be a case of, "they knew too much" and so, had to be kept away from others as well? Thinking a little further, how many Order members besides the Potters ever talked to Bagshot?..

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

New Fridge Horror regarding Lily and James' deaths? Check. 0.0.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Very, very interesting theory.
I can see DD in his "I'm the only one he is afraid of / only one who can organize the fight, and it's for the good of all..." mindsets making sure all people who could "blemish" his reputation to the rest of the order die / rot in jail / go crazy on the run / never be around the rest of the order. :(

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Agreed *so very much* on the "pure evil" BS that it's not funny.