death to capslock

*Nothing*, of course!

Some people on TV Tropes would make the case that "if Lily was selfish, why would she die for her son" -- in all honesty, it wasn't bravery. It was fear. What Voldemort did to her and James was senseless -- if pragmatic -- slaughter that Dumbledore set up so he could later use Harry as a...*thinks* What's the distaff equivalent of the word "damsel"?

As harsh as it may sound, Lily was a damsel. Nothing more, nothing less. Merope held out for her son long enough to get him to some place where he could be nurtured and cared for. The two of those have nothing to do with one another. I think I could have bought this scenario if (a) Lily had actually stood and fought while Voldemort was invading their home and (b) If Dumbledore hadn't ridiculed Merope. Hell, he could have even lightly reprimanded Harry: "Merope's strength was no less than your mother's."

But of course, he needs Harry to play the male damsel when the time comes.

(Sorry if I sound a little harsh, BTW, but the deeper we get into Dumbledore's mindset...*Sighs* Anyone want some drinks?)

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I have some sympathy for Lily, in that if Voldemort really was so ridiculously powerful and she knew he was prone to throwing AKs, there wasn't a whole lot she could do once she ran out of furniture to throw in front of them (I'm assuming she didn't Apparate out because they had Hogwarts-style anti-Apparition wards up that she didn't have time to take down or something). So in that sense, she knew it was hopeless, and took the one extremely slim chance she saw and made the only gesture she could.

Which still leaves her as basically a damsel in distress, and in a situation nothing like Merope's.

Plus of course Lily and James, being young and apparently way too trusting, probably thought that Dumbledore would do a better job of protecting them. Like, catch the traitor quickly, being a master Legilimens and all.

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"I have some sympathy for Lily, in that if Voldemort really was so ridiculously powerful and she knew he was prone to throwing AKs, there wasn't a whole lot she could do once she ran out of furniture to throw in front of them (I'm assuming she didn't Apparate out because they had Hogwarts-style anti-Apparition wards up that she didn't have time to take down or something). So in that sense, she knew it was hopeless, and took the one extremely slim chance she saw and made the only gesture she could."

Well, okay. Makes sense. She still could have stood and fought, though. Like the Duke said once, "Courage is being scared to death, yet saddling up anyway." Even if Lily had gone down throwing *pebbles* at Voldemort...it still would have been better than essentially begging for her life.

"Which still leaves her as basically a damsel in distress, and in a situation nothing like Merope's."

Think Dumbles has...a few issues with women? Or just with Slytherins in general? Or am I reading too much into things? :P

"Plus of course Lily and James, being young and apparently way too trusting, probably thought that Dumbledore would do a better job of protecting them. Like, catch the traitor quickly, being a master Legilimens and all."

Holy shit, *this*.

Seriously, say what you want about Lily and James, but that's just heartbreaking. The thought of, "Dumbledore will save us" -- and then of course, he never does. :(

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If only wizards had psychology. Then Lily could at least wonder, hey, if Voldemort likes his followers to grovel, maybe groveling really does something for him... well, worth a shot! But I suppose villains like Pettigrew are the only ones allowed to even try manipulation when they're cornered. *sigh*

Oh, yes, there are some issues there. Possibly ultimately self-directed, kid of like Dumbledore, but probably not things she consciously realizes she even has issues with (otherwise they'd be handled more thematically clearly, one way or another).

He even took the invisibility cloak from them. Might have bought them precious seconds. Poor dumb trusting kids :(

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Indeed. *Hugs them both -- before punting Dumbledore out an airlock* >:(

:(

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oneandthetruth.livejournal.com

Seriously, say what you want about Lily and James, but that's just heartbreaking. The thought of, "Dumbledore will save us" -- and then of course, he never does. :(

He even took the invisibility cloak from them. Might have bought them precious seconds. Poor dumb trusting kids :(

It reminds me of that line from Aliens, when Ripley found out one of the crew had been bribed to smuggle back some monsters to Earth, and so what if the ship's crew got killed by them?: "I swear to God, I don't know which species is worse. At least they don't f*** each other over for a share of the profits."

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Interesting point there. Especially the idea that basically, James and Sirius' arrogance (plus Dumbledore's cunning) was their undoing. :)

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They didn't trust him to be their secret keeper*, but that doesn't mean they didn't trust him to be let in on the secret (via letter or Polyjuiced Peter/Sirius to preserve that secret). He couldn't have revealed the secret, so all's well there.

And considering that it's his own house, it doesn't seem to out of line for them to expect that he could keep a magical eye on it and Apparate over if the burlger alarm went off. Since he's already expecting Voldy and the DEs to go after them enough that they need to go into hiding in the first place, it would just be stupid not to have some sort of monitoring system.

But none of them have ever shown much common sense, because they're too busy fitting into Rowling's agenda. *sigh*

*Though really, why? Sure they know they tricked him about the Animagus thing - but keeping a secret is a different matter. If they know anything about Dumbledore, it's that he can keep a secret, and even at their most suspicious I doubt they believed he would march up to Voldemort and reveal it. You would think that having a super-powerful wizard who spends most of his time in one of the most secure locations in Britain would be an excellent choice for secret keeper.

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Don't you mean "Dumbledore's"? ;-)

But really, I see what you mean. :3

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They're both trying to manipulate us and the plot, so it amounts to about the same thing XD

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XD

Well-said, my friend. Well said. XD

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And considering that it's his own house

Was it? I thought it was supposed to be the Potter ancestral home, in the family all the way back to Ignotus Peverell.

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Hm, not sure it says for sure either way, but I don't think it ever said the Potters stayed in the village for all that time or that James grew up there, and we know Dumbledore did live there and conceivably could have the house handy for the Order. And I assumed that anyone going into hiding would move into a different house even if they were putting it under Fidelius, because someone could still blow up the location even if they couldn't see the house. But then, they weren't too sensible about any of this...

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Unfortunately. :/

After all, IITS. ;-)

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I think I've reached the point where I just throw up my hands. I can accept a certain amount of confusion about what really happened and characters making a few egregiously obvious mistakes - people do - but this whole mess is just too much, and too obviously contrived.

I think I'm going to assume that Voldemort's "memory" of that night is actually the way he reimagined it because he's such a narcissist that he doesn't even want to remember anything halfway smart the Potters did. That clears up a lot.

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"I think I'm going to assume that Voldemort's "memory" of that night is actually the way he reimagined it because he's such a narcissist that he doesn't even want to remember anything halfway smart the Potters did. That clears up a lot."

0.0.

Holy shit...that actually makes sense. After all, Harry *was* in Voldemort's head when he was having that vision; Voldemort was probably just using their bond to f*k with him. (He did it to lure Harry to the Ministry of Magic in OOTP, so it's not far off)

And all I can say is that Spock icon is gold. :3

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Even if Voldemort didn't know Harry might be watching, he could still have rewritten it for himself because he's just that disdainful of everyone else.

It's a very useful icon! I got it over at

fantastipink somewhere, can't remember the details.

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"Even if Voldemort didn't know Harry might be watching, he could still have rewritten it for himself because he's just that disdainful of everyone else."

That too. :)

"It's a very useful icon! I got it over at fantastipink somewhere, can't remember the details."

Awesome! :D

I just love the look on Spock's face. ^__^

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seductivedark.livejournal.com

...and we know Dumbledore did live there and conceivably could have the house handy for the Order.

Didn't the Dumbledores live next to Bathilda Bagshot, too? Or was she just a nosy neighborhood witch, not necessarily next door?

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Well, it is implied by Albus that James inherited the cloak ultimately from Ignotus, and Ignotus is buried in Godric's Hollow. I don't think the ruined home is the same place where Kendra relocated her family to, because there are several houses between the ruin and Bathilda's cottage, whereas it seems Kendra and the kids lived next door to Bathilda if she saw Kendra walking Ariana at night while she went picking whatever plant that was.

And I assumed that anyone going into hiding would move into a different house even if they were putting it under Fidelius, because someone could still blow up the location even if they couldn't see the house.

The moment the house goes under Fidelius it becomes unknowable to others, unless told by the Secret Keeper. (Though it isn't clear if in the Potters' case the Fidelius was on the house or on the people, nor is it clear whether the spell broke when Peter revealed the secret, when the adult Potters died or when the house was destroyed. It is described differently in each mention.) That's why even after meeting Kreacher and talking to him Narcissa doesn't know where the Order keeps its headquarters. And I'm sure Kreacher would tell her anything he was capable of telling.

The Potters were definitely living in Godric's Hollow in July, and the Fidelius was cast in late October, a week before the attack.

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But we also know that wizards do occasionally move from one mixed-residence village to another. Granted the Dumbledores had an unusual reason to move and maybe it isn't super-common, but over the last few centuries the Potters could have had their own reasons too (if they were so rich, they might just have wanted a bigger house). So Ignotus being in the graveyard doesn't necessarily resolve the issue one way or the other. It's also possible that the Potters moved elsewhere to a bigger house, kept their cottage in Godric's Hollow, and last century they leased it to the Dumbledores :D

If only we knew how Fidelius actually worked, and what they did! For instance, Narcissa couldn't know that it was #12, Grimmauld Place specifically - but could Kreachur have told her, "Such-and-such neighborhood has had some Order members walking about the streets" (thus technically not trying to reveal the secret, but implying), and then if she were Voldemort and just wanted them all dead, she could scale up whatever Peter did and blow up the whole neighborhood? Ditto the Potters - if the charm was on the house, and Voldemort suspected they were in Godric's Hollow because they lived there before, couldn't he just order up a tornado or something to take the whole town out?

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Well, we know for certain the Potters lived in Godric's Hollow for at least a few months before adding the Fidelius - they did not move to a different location just before adding that protection. So if it was possible for Tom to get the entire village based on prior knowledge that the Potters once lived there they did not avoid that problem.

As for 12GP - I don't think it mattered what Kreacher said about the location of Order HQ. It was obvious he had seen both Sirius and Harry. And Narcissa used to know where Kreacher lived. But with the Fidelius she couldn't, nor was Bellatrix able to put the pieces together later on.

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We know from DH that the Death Eaters can remember that a hidden location must be somewhere on that street, though, once they get the information, even if they still can't see it or get in. They just lurk outside across the street. (Evidently they wanted to capture rather than kill, or they could have just blown a gas main. Unless there are anti-gas-main-explosion wards on the house.) So if Kreacher had told Bellatrix and Narcissa that McGonagall was seen walking along Grimmauld Place, they could have kept that much in their minds and concluded that the Order was operating somewhere on the street, even if they couldn't connect it to their prior, now Fidelius-removed knowledge. Maybe they just didn't think of asking specific enough questions.

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