(no subject)

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one a little bothered by Dumbledore? Not only with the fact he could end up in the Guinness Book Of World Records for "Most Incompetent Headmaster of All Time" (though I'm sure there's worse. :P), but also because...he just bugs me. I know JKR was trying to write him as the "flawed Yoda", so to speak (and to be fair, he's nowhere near Yoda. XD), but it's also how...preachy he gets. Towards Fudge, for example. You know, in Goblet of Fire, with, "You place too much importance on purity of blood, yadda yadda et cetera et cetera" -- which considering how he treated Tom Riddle and the Slytherins is...slightly hypocritical isn't it? Probably bad writing on JKR's part, though. :/

Anyways, sorry 'bout the rambling. Thoughts?

Comments

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Merope on the other hand, attempts to change her horrible living conditions, fights for what she wants and overcomes years of abuse to go for a dream.
Yes, she went about it in the wrong way (if she truly used a potion that is) but she did try.

And that's why she's evil. Ambition is the Slytherin virtue, remember?

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately. *Sighs* 'Tis a sad world we live in...

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. I forgot that.
Silly me not knowing that ambition is always evil. *roll eyes*

You have to wonder if Rowling ever truly considered how messed up message she's sending. :(

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, "ambition is evil" can kind of be traced back to Tolkien. Which probably makes it worse. :/ *Cough* Morgoth *Cough*

Still...yeah, you'd think JKR would have caught that...

[sunnyskywalker]

And Saruman wanting to learn too much about light and prisms and new uses for metals. Clearly this can only lead to control freakiness and treeless wastelands. (Where did the Dwarves put all the waste rock and dirt from their mining, anyway?)

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

True. :)

Honestly, I have no idea where they put the waste rock and dirt. A garbage disposal? :/ *Is shot*

[sunnyskywalker]

Maybe the Lonely Mountain is lonely because it used to be a perfectly flat plain until they started dumping all their tailings from everywhere in Middle Earth there. And, er, any mining in it was thanks to improved techniques that helped them get more out of the tailings. Yeah.

Dwarfs

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Dwarfs were supposed to have a supernatural affinity with metals and rocks weren't they? Gimli says something of the kind.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Dwarves were created by Aule, Vala of the earth, so probably learned from him how to mine responsibly. They probably used parts of it for decorations, sculptures, or defensive works. And on the subject of Saruman (and Sauron, and Morgoth) - lots of people in Middle-Earth wanted to be great, including Aragorn and Galadriel. And for generic ambitions that didn't involve ruling people, pretty much everyone with a name in the First Age had some great ambition or other. Tolkien recognised that ambition causes evil when followed without care for the harm it does others, not of itself.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Ah. Gotcha. :)

Seriously, Tolkien could teach Rowling a great many things. :P

[sunnyskywalker]

They probably have magic, non-toxic substances they can use to separate out the gold etc. instead of cyanide and such. That's one of the big RL causes of mining pollution. Still hard to see how all the waste rock could have been turned into statues or defensive works I don't remember seeing (though I might have just missed them, or maybe they were on another part of the mountain), given the size of those halls, but that's something I guess I'll let Tolkien slide on.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

With respect to Morgoth, Tolkien got it from Milton. (And while we're on the subject, Satan does all this exemplary work as captain of the Host only to have God's son, who no one's ever seen before and who has no experience of commanding angels, nepotistically promoted to the top job, and is then told that there's a new favourite species made in God's image and how they're the pinnacle of Creation - no wonder he resigned.) And while I'm very much a Tolkien fan, I too sympathise with Morgoth's initial desires (is it really so bad to want to create independently of your parent?) Of course, when we see the music he wanted to sing it tries to dominate and drown out everything else, but if Iluvatar had just said "here's the Secret Fire, go have fun", things could have been so different (and we'd have been spared Turin's endless whining).

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"With respect to Morgoth, Tolkien got it from Milton. (And while we're on the subject, Satan does all this exemplary work as captain of the Host only to have God's son, who no one's ever seen before and who has no experience of commanding angels, nepotistically promoted to the top job, and is then told that there's a new favourite species made in God's image and how they're the pinnacle of Creation - no wonder he resigned.)"

"You know what -- I'm starting my own religion. F--k you guys!" XD

(No offense to anyone who's religious, BTW. :)

"And while I'm very much a Tolkien fan, I too sympathise with Morgoth's initial desires (is it really so bad to want to create independently of your parent?)"

Well, I think the really bad part was him throwing an age-long hissy fit afterward. But yeah...I get what you mean. :)

"Of course, when we see the music he wanted to sing it tries to dominate and drown out everything else, but if Iluvatar had just said "here's the Secret Fire, go have fun", things could have been so different (and we'd have been spared Turin's endless whining)."

Very true, my dear friend. Very true. :)

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the really bad part was him throwing an age-long hissy fit afterward. But yeah...I get what you mean. :)

You understate - there were three ages of stars before the Sun was created (and that's not counting however long they spent with the Lamps and the Trees, not to mention the time they took building the place) ::removes pedant hat::

Wasn't Lorien or Nienna supposed to have some sort of therapy-related power? They really failed there, I think.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

So, LoTR is like Paradise Lost with more awesome? (I HATED PL, but read it because I was 18 and really wanted to be cultured)

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, and with less moral questionability on God's part (Eru at least explicitly states that Arda is the Valar's responsibility and demonstrates that Morgoth's evil, once modified, improves the situation).

And my gods, I agree with you so much about Paradise Lost. It's so dull! Pandaemonium gets raised and Satan has a chat with Chaos on his epic journey into Eden, and that's about all I can remember finding impressive! (That and how utterly crap Uriel is at guarding Eden).

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"So, LoTR is like Paradise Lost with more awesome? (I HATED PL, but read it because I was 18 and really wanted to be cultured)"

I couldn't really get through PARADISE LOST, just because it was so thickly written. Let's say at the end of the book I was kind of disappointed, really. :(

And yes, LOTR is like Paradise Lost with more awesome, as you said. :3 (It has *Gollum*, for Chrissake! :D)

[sunnyskywalker]

Paradise Lost is a lot better if you've had a lot of the context drilled into your head before you read it. There's this passage that sounds like it's just talking about the cannons that Satan and co. built, but if you break out the Oxford English Dictionary and find out that "grain" can be referring to a rosary bead as well as powder, suddenly it's a sneaky anti-Catholic diatribe! Plus Raphael blushing when Adam asks him about angel!sex is pretty funny, and given that angels were explicitly established as gender-bending there really ought to be more fanfic about that.

But trying to read it while looking up every third word isn't very fun at all.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

The thing with Morgoth's ambition... I think it's kind of like the difference between writing because you want to write a great story, and writing because you want to be a great author. Is it about creating something wonderful, or about you being wonderful?

Trying to create something wonderful when it's primarily about you wanting to be great isn't likely to work very well. Not that it's likely to be disastrous the way Morgoth turned out! But you aren't likely to succeed in creating something wonderful.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Well said! :D

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Silly me not knowing that ambition is always evil. *roll eyes*

You have to wonder if Rowling ever truly considered how messed up message she's sending. :(

Not only that. Rowling herself is clearly extremely ambitious or she would not have had the temerity to quit her job (with a child to support, no less), write a book, shop it to over a dozen publishers, and do everything she could to make every last penny off her series. That isn't Slytherin-hatred. That's self-hatred.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Or simple hypocrisy, or blindness. Don't automatically attribute to malice what can be ascribed to stupidity.

Besides, if the theory that she's operating under a badly-understood Calvinism is accurate, of course she's not being ambitious, she's just favoured by God and deserves all this! I suspect if you asked her what she means by ambition, there'd be some implication that the ambitious want what they don't deserve.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

"Or simple hypocrisy, or blindness. Don't automatically attribute to malice what can be ascribed to stupidity."

Exactly.
I'll sooner believe (un)common stupidity, lack of understanding of , well, everything and self-righteousness from a women who can do simple math, can't keep track of things she already wrote, who can't plot one book without using deus ex machina (most times more then once) and who failed psychology and ethics is such spectacular way, then some kind of evile master plan.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I think you both misunderstood me, or perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I'm not suggesting she consciously chose to ambitiously pursue success while simultaneously advocating the opposite value in her books. I'm saying the fact she can trash ambition in her books while being very ambitious in RL is another example of how clueless she is about her own beliefs and thought processes. I'm saying she consciously thinks ambition is bad--which is why she gave that trait to the "bad guy" Slytherins--but unconsciously believes in it and wants to be successful, so she's ambitious and pursues success in her own life. After all, this is the same woman who insists with a straight face that her books are all about the triumph of love over evil--and we all know how (un)true that is.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

the ambitious want what they don't deserve

LOL, sounds a lot like JKR going by the series! If you deserve something, it's awarded to you on a silver platter without any effort- like Harry being made Seeker in his first year, against the rules, with no other first years being given the same chance. Only the inferior and unworthy want something that they can't have! Like Draco, wishing he could be on the quidditch team! If he has to wish for it without it being granted, obv he's just greedy and a bully with no compassion or consideration for others!

Bleurgh.