OOTP Chapter Seven: "The Ministry of Magic"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* Jeans and a t-shirt seems like quite a scruffy combination for a hearing, even if they are freshly laundered. Doesn’t Harry have a suit or something he could wear?

* So why is it again that moving Harry to No. 12 required a small battalion of witches and wizards to keep him safe, but taking him to the Ministry requires just one middle-aged guy?

* Kudos to Mr. Weasley for getting excited about automatic ticket machines, instead of just assuming that they’re an inferior substitute for magic like everyone else does. Still, it does make one wonder why he hasn’t learnt more about Muggle technology.

* To enter the Ministry, type 62442. This is where the letters MAGIC are on a numberpad. Just thought I’d point that out.

* Nothing triumphalist about that Statue of Magical Harmony at all, is there? Still, it does make the pureblood supremacists look a bit less bad. Wizards clearly think that they’re better than sapient magical creatures; all Mr. Malfoy et al. want to do is add sapient non-magical creatures to the statue.

* So does St. Mungo’s rely on charity to keep itself afloat, then? ’Cause you’d have thought that the WW would be able to fund at least one hospital, especially if it’s literally the only hospital available to them. But then, why get people to donate to it at all, if you can just fund it out of general taxation? And why would people put coins in the well? After all, you never hear people saying “I think the NHS is such a good thing, I’m going to voluntary pay more tax to help fund it.”

* And do we ever see the Department for Experimental Breeding investigate Hagrid?

* An “Official Gobstones Club” just sounds silly to me. Yes, let’s have all these senior governmental officials using public office space to play a game which squirts foul-smelling liquid into your face! I mean, I get that the HP books have a lot of whimsy in them, but the series is supposed to be growing up at this point. Official Gobstones Clubs just don’t fit with the serious atmosphere JKR’s trying to create.

* Does a society as small as the WW really need such a big government? Or are they all just so stupid that they need two bureaucrats to every normal citizen to constantly tell them what to do?

* The fact that the Goblin Liaison Office is part of the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magic Creatures should tell you all you need to know about the wizarding world’s mindset when it comes to other sentient beings.

* If it’s any consolation, though, the Goblins do control the WW’s only bank. I bet they laugh about the wizards whilst secretly holding the Minister to ransom by threatening to use their power to take down the entire wizarding economy.

* A bit like Jews in anti-Semitic literature, now that I come to think of it. Normally, I’d just brush this off as a coincidence, and say that anyone trying to compare Goblins and Jews is reading too much into the text. In light of the fact that Rowling constantly bludgeons us over the head with her heavy-handed Nazi analogies, though…

* Oh, and now they have a “Muggle-Worthy Excuse Committee” as part of the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes. Once again, “Muggle” is being used as a term of abuse, despite the fact that it’s the Wizarding World, not the Muggle, which is a corrupt, authoritarian, nepotistic dictatorship which breeds Dark Lords like a rotting log breeds toadstools.

* Once again, though, it makes the Pureblood Supremacists look a bit better. After all, if you were brought up to believe that Muggles were inherently stupid, wouldn’t you want to keep their (no doubt equally stupid) offspring at arm’s length?

* In fact, sod it – the Supremacists are actually better than mainstream society. At least their sense of superiority is consistent with their society’s views on Muggles – none of that hypocritical “Oh, Muggles are stupid and inferior – but whatever you do, don’t say so!” crap.

* And now I’m going to shut up on the topic for the rest of this chapter, lest my blood pressure climbs to unhealthy levels.

* Percy appears to have walked out of the photograph. So does this mean that magical photographs are able to know and react to events around them? But how would Photo!Percy have known about the argument? And isn’t there a scene later in the book when Moody shows Harry a picture of the Order of the Phoenix, and Harry thinks something along the lines of “They had no idea that they’d shortly be killed”? Probably Arthur’s removed his son himself.

* So why was the hearing time changed? Was it just to discredit Harry by making him look too arrogant to show up to his own hearing? But then, surely it would emerge that he was meant to turn up several hours later, thereby defeating the purpose of the change?

 

Comments

[sunnyskywalker]

We know he has dress robes. Is that not appropriate hearing-wear?

Rowling could have used all this wizarding hypocrisy to great effect if she'd followed through and had Voldemort's rise be partly a result of the average wizard not being much less bigoted than the pureblood fanatics, and all the adults be now in denial about how much they're responsible for him and his reign of terror. Harry could learn some interesting things about how saying you have good intentions, and even believing it, doesn't mean you aren't letting awful things happen, or even supporting them.

Do the Ministry officials not have access to the magically updating calendars they surely have where they could see "Hearing time changed"? If it was scheduled at one time originally and then changed, there must be a paper trail somewhere.

Corruption in the magical world

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's why Deathly Hallows was such a distaster and messed up the entire series in retrospect. To think that I was certain, back in 2003, that Order of the Phoenix heralded a realisation of that kind. That Voldemort actually fitted right into the magical society as it is presented in the books. If JKR had done this she would have come across as clever and as a competent author.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Rowling could have used all this wizarding hypocrisy to great effect if she'd followed through and had Voldemort's rise be partly a result of the average wizard not being much less bigoted than the pureblood fanatics, and all the adults be now in denial about how much they're responsible for him and his reign of terror.

Wow, it took me a while to fully understand what you are getting at here and synchronise with the impact of such a move. Harry would have really had an uphill struggle in that sort of situation, wouldn't he? As well as facing continual resistance at Hogwarts as well.

But proceeding along that path would have opened up a can of worms that Rowling wouldn't have been able to handle. Life at Hogwarts would have been much darker. Hermione would have suffered continual reminders of wizarding bigotry, instead of merely being the target of a few futile taunts from Draco. It would have been much more clear that a proper resolution of the series would have needed to redress the wrongs of wizarding society as a whole rather than just vanquish Voldemort and stop there.

Good stuff to think about!

[sunnyskywalker]

It would have been very tough! Imagine Harry having to realize that most or all the adult witches and wizards (and a lot of the younger ones) he knows might be just fine to him, and might try to be and think of themselves as good people - while, say, voting for Lucius Malfoy and convincing themselves that his tax scheme is totally fair and does not make things twice as hard for Muggleborns, or "somehow" grading the papers of Muggleborn students more harshly whenever there's wiggle room (of course they'd have a reason why it was totally worse, honest, if you asked), or agreeing that of course laws forbidding goblins to have wands are necessary because we're sure there are some nice goblins but you know how they are with their rebellions. Things like that. What would Harry do about that?

Come to think of it, we had a good lead-in to that in GoF, with Arthur thinking Bagman is a good guy. She could have done a lot more with that (even if Bagman wasn't a DE). And the house-elves, of course. Harry could have started noticing it a bit in that book, maybe with a side of "say, Draco just made fun of Krum's accent, and so did Ernie, maybe that means something?" And then it comes out a lot more on OotP, especially once he realizes that not even Good Ministry Guy Arthur cared much about Sirius not getting a trial back then (which maybe leads to extra guilt about that possessed snake incident...). By HBP he's feeling pretty hopeless and that's partly what sets him off about Scrimgeor (think the kid who didn't grow up spoiled must be a bad guy, do you? like you thought I was last year?). Then... he'd really have a tough time in DH, and all the Dumbledore stuff could lead to some really difficult questions instead of "he made horrible mistakes - but okay, he was right, so we're all good, let's ignore the flayed baby!"

I don't think he'd ever have been as confident and gung-ho as Hermione, exactly, and he wouldn't use any advanced terminology, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have made this journey. It would just have to be handled subtly. And most of the groundwork is there already.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Things like that. What would Harry do about that?

Whatever Hermione told him to? :-)

Okay, I wasn't (quite) serious there. Hermione wasn't Harry's *consience*; he had his own sense of right and wrong. Although it was a lot less refined than our girl's, his main reason for tracking down Voldemort was out of revenge and not altruism (well, at one stage), etc.

But Harry and his conscience were strictly small potatoes. Limited scope. Short range. He didn't worry about matters of society as a whole. He only took notice of injustice when it materialised in front of his nose.

I could see one possible storyline where he only gradually gets to understand the rot behind wizarding society as he sees how his best friend Hermione is treated. Or maybe as she complains about the bias that *she* is experiencing. After all, most of Hermione's rants are about House Elves, centaurs and so forth; a couple of steps away from Harry's immediate vision.

And then it comes out a lot more on OotP, especially once he realizes that not even Good Ministry Guy Arthur cared much about Sirius not getting a trial back then ...

You're basically suggesting that Harry be made a member of deathtocapslock and not allowed to leave until he'd read our opinions here. :-)

All of this *was* in Harry's face, to some degree. At any time he could have railed against the injustice done to Sirius and gone investigating. Or side with Hermione a little more about the House Elves thing. But instead he keeps to the straight and narrow simplistic path that Rowling kept him on for the convenience of her story and where she wanted him to go.

And I do believe that was one of Ron's major roles; to keep Harry happy with the status quo. Ignore Hermione, Harry, she's mental; come and live at the Burrow and assimilate the prevailing attitudes of wizarding society. Don't *think* about things, just accept 'em!

Interesting stuff to think about!

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*This*, just this!

Seriously, the whole "plea for tolerance" things fails on so many levels...
:(

JKR and stereotypes

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Ever notice how in HP the stereotypes eg such as the stereotype about giants, turn out to be more or less true? It undercuts the plea for tolerance to say the best of it.

It's like having the designated good characters condemn stereotyping scottish people for being mean with money and then introducing characters who are themselves living stereotypes of miserly scottish men; "now just chop this wee pile o' logs, and there's five pence in it for you."

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

After all, you never hear people saying “I think the NHS is such a good thing, I’m going to voluntary pay more tax to help fund it.”

I have heard people say they'd be happy if more of their taxes were spent on it, though. On the other hand, most wizards don't come across as community-minded enough to think anything of the sort, so maybe there's a low-level Imperius emitted by the fountain.

* And do we ever see the Department for Experimental Breeding investigate Hagrid?

Good question - Rita Skeeter recommends it should, but we never hear of any consequences, despite Dumbledore's influence waning in this book. Maybe Umbridge's attempted arrest of Hagrid was actually a perfectly legal response to the Skrewts.

* Does a society as small as the WW really need such a big government? Or are they all just so stupid that they need two bureaucrats to every normal citizen to constantly tell them what to do?

Maybe it's like with royal courts where the original roles of "master of horse" and "master of wardrobe" become ceremonial posts for the nobility and so new posts have to be created to actually do the work.

* So why was the hearing time changed? Was it just to discredit Harry by making him look too arrogant to show up to his own hearing? But then, surely it would emerge that he was meant to turn up several hours later, thereby defeating the purpose of the change?

Not if the memo gets conveniently lost and the Minister denies it was ever sent. Corruption handily explains most of the Ministry-related plot holes, I find.

[detritius.livejournal.com]

* So why was the hearing time changed? Was it just to discredit Harry by making him look too arrogant to show up to his own hearing? But then, surely it would emerge that he was meant to turn up several hours later, thereby defeating the purpose of the change?

Maybe it was partly to make Harry look bad, but I think it's mentioned later that Fudge changed the time to try and elude Dumbledore. At least, I think he was pretty surprised when he turned up. It's been awhile since I've read the book, though, so I could be wrong.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

That was my impression as well.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

as to St. Mungo's - I'd say it's quite possible it is funded by society but some little extras may be bought if people donate to it. For example, in my country, schools are funded by the state, but there are societies associated with most schools (sponsored by parents and local business, as a rule) to buy things that are not absolutely needed but are nice to have like additional computers or gym things and such.

* Does a society as small as the WW really need such a big government?
I bet this is another instance of "Oh dear, maths". The way it is described, the MoM seems like quite a big thing with lots of different departments. Which would call for a much more numerous society than one which obviously seems to be clothed by two shops and gets their wands from one wandmaker...

I’d just brush this off as a coincidence, and say that anyone trying to compare Goblins and Jews is reading too much into the text.
Oh no, I'm sure you don't. The parallels are too many for them to be a coincidence. Wasn't there even a mention in DH how one (or all of them?) goblin looked "swarthy" not to mention to have a hooked nose? It doesn't get much closer to traditional European antisemitism propaganda than that.

* In fact, sod it – the Supremacists are actually better than mainstream society. At least their sense of superiority is consistent with their society’s views on Muggles – none of that hypocritical “Oh, Muggles are stupid and inferior – but whatever you do, don’t say so!” crap.
YES! The sickening thing about this whole HP mess is that we are expected to feel righteous anger at those who (to translate it into our society) call coloured or hispanic or turkish (or whatever your choice is) people an inferior, genetically deficient class of people and sympathize with those who like very much to discuss these topics at the dinner table while of course not really mingling with people of that sort. While stating that of course this was not due to any sort of prejudice, but just, you know, personal incompatability.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

>>>>>>YES! The sickening thing about this whole HP mess is that we are expected to feel righteous anger at those who (to translate it into our society) call coloured or hispanic or turkish (or whatever your choice is) people an inferior, genetically deficient class of people and sympathize with those who like very much to discuss these topics at the dinner table while of course not really mingling with people of that sort. While stating that of course this was not due to any sort of prejudice, but just, you know, personal incompatability.

This comment reminded me of the website Stuff White People Like (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com)

#7 Diversity (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/19/7-diversity/)

White people love ethnic diversity, but only as it relates to restaurants.

Many white people from cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York will spend hours talking about how great it is that they can get Sushi and Tacos on the same street. But then they send their kids to private school with other rich white kids, and live in neighborhoods like Santa Monica or Pacific Palisades.

But it’s important to note that white people to do not like to be called out on this fact. If you run an ethnic restaurant you can be guaranteed repeat business and huge tips if you act like your white customers are adventurous and cultured for eating food that it isn’t sandwiches or pasta.

In fact, many of the items on their list (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/full-list-of-stuff-white-people-like/) can be found in Harry Potter.

This might help explain why the series is so popular.

[600ants.livejournal.com]

Oh well... I don't mean to be rude or anything, but that site isn't much better than JK's books, promotion-of-stereotypes-bordering-on-hate intolerance-wise speaking...

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

LOL! I've never even seen that before, the stuff white people like. Goes to look at list and see how White of a white person I am. I might post the results on my actual live journal.

JKR and racism issues

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Another member mentioned that JKR just decided to give the designated villains the racism stamp because it's something that she calculated would make lots of people boo them in this day and age. She really does not come across as someone who really has egalitarian views herself though does she?

If she had been writing in the 19th century or in the early 20th century her designated "good" characters would most likely be condemning "The horrors of miscegenation" in the manner of H.P. Lovecraft and the designated baddies would have been fighting AGAINST a societal dogma that promoted racial purity.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Ok, the Classical Music and Graduate School segments just annoy me. Possibly because I am a grad student/ex music major. Rather irritatingly condescending, actually.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So why is it again that moving Harry to No. 12 required a small battalion of witches and wizards to keep him safe, but taking him to the Ministry requires just one middle-aged guy?

Heh, nice one.

Okay, my answer: Because Rowling wanted to write a fresh How-Harry-Left-the-Dursleys chapter at the start of every new book. And like everything she wrote, she didn't let the facts or common sense stop her from writing the scenes she wanted to write!

Real answer, trying to make sense of Rowling's scattered pieces: it all depends on how you look at the undefined "wards" that protected Harry at the Dursleys. Did the death eaters know where Harry lived? I think so; that's why the Order stood guard, how the bad guys were lurking right outside the wards at the start of DH?

So you need a lot of security to whisk Harry away from a venue whose location is well known, like Privet Drive.

However, once at Grimmauld Place - protected by the Fidelius - Harry could set out on a trip without his starting point being known and monitored.

After all, if you were brought up to believe that Muggles were inherently stupid, wouldn’t you want to keep their (no doubt equally stupid) offspring at arm’s length?

Yes, but then you've got Hermione Granger (what a gal!) coming along and throwing in your face the fact that those muggle offspring are JUST AS GOOD as the pure-blood wizards, not stupid at all; in fact, in Hermione's case - what a gal! - even SUPERIOR to the purebloods. Putting the Pureblood Supremacists back to looking simply prejudiced and insular after all.

So why was the hearing time changed? Was it just to discredit Harry by making him look too arrogant to show up to his own hearing?

That and - just as much, maybe more - to stop Dumbledore from turning up, I'd say. Fudge seems quite taken aback and evasive when the headmaster turns up.

But then, surely it would emerge that he was meant to turn up several hours later, thereby defeating the purpose of the change?

If they could incarcerate Sirius for 12 years without a trial I'm sure it would take a century before anyone noticed that Harry hadn't turned up at the hearing that they'd actually conducted.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"However, once at Grimmauld Place - protected by the Fidelius - Harry could set out on a trip without his starting point being known and monitored."

His starting point wouldn't be known, but they'd know that he'd have to end up at the Ministry. It wouldn't be too hard to put DEs on the main entrances, and try and kill/kidnap Harry when he appeared.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

But there'd be heaps of other wizards mingling around at that end. Maybe Aurors on duty too?

[harpsi-fizz.livejournal.com]

Doesn’t Harry have a suit or something he could wear?
Even Hagrid had his hairy brown suit that he wore. This is true. I guess Dress robes would be out of the question, but still.

The fact that the Goblin Liaison Office is part of the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magic Creatures should tell you all you need to know about the wizarding world’s mindset when it comes to other sentient beings.
That got me wondering... wouldn't it be interesting if there was a series in which the wizards were the ones that answered to other sentient beings? Not elves or mermaids or anything that they'd consider "human plus" but vaguely humanoid things. Goblins, tenticula, gnomes, something with a body shape that's different enough to cause problems.
We're always seeing Flitwick standing on stacks of things. I'd like to see the humans having to duck and crouch (like Gandalf had to in the Hobbbit hole!) or operate communication devices that required use of both of their hands and one foot because they don't have adequate limbs.

It's not that I want to see them suffer, but... well... (Warning: Tangent) I'm suddenly reminded of this fella I used to live with. He was what he called a magic practitioner, and he claimed to have a lot of fairies that hung around him. A lot of the time, though, he'd be shouting at them and ordering them. It got my skepticism up t great heights- why the Hell would these creatures want to cater to you? is what I wondered. Same deal with the department as you're describing it- why do these goblins let the humans dictate the terms? Why are they the golden standard?

On a positive note (for my relief) I'd like to believe that there are some wizards who go off and live in the world of other sentient magical beings, teaching in their schools and such. Not in an "I'm studying you" kind of way, but in an "I'm an immigrant" way.

Oh, and now they have a “Muggle-Worthy Excuse Committee” as part of the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes. Once again, “Muggle” is being used as a term of abuse, despite the fact that it’s the Wizarding World, not the Muggle, which is a corrupt, authoritarian, nepotistic dictatorship which breeds Dark Lords like a rotting log breeds toadstools.
This. It boggles my mind that people don't see how a person could interpret the word "muggle" as a slur.

[sunnyskywalker]

I forgot about Hagrid's suit. The clothes don't make sense in this world! If they wear robes, why isn't he wearing hairy brown robes that are the equivalent of unfashionable wizarding office wear? And why would Harry facing old-school wizards in robes while wearing Muggle jeans and t-shirt be better than just wearing his plain black school robes? Since they don't have the House logos in the books imo, they'd just be plain, unexceptional black robes, and a proper wizarding outfit. Maybe Mrs. Weasley thought that if he looked more like a poor, helpless Muggle, they'd take pity on him and be more inclined to think whatever he did was probably reasonable self-defense, not an underage wizard showing off his magic.

wouldn't it be interesting if there was a series in which the wizards were the ones that answered to other sentient beings?That sounds like an interesting story concept! Especially if it isn't about how the human wizards overthrow the evil, evil goblins and become the new rulers; working for more equality, sure, but not the same old "humanity triumphant!" theme. And stories about Potterverse wizards who went off to live with the goblins or the centaurs would be fascinating. Maybe Fleur has a Veela grandmother not because her grandmother ditched the Veela community to marry Grandpa Delacour, but because her grandfather moved east to a Veela town. And maybe they, or Fleur's parents, decided to take advantage of their wizarding ancestry to get their kids a Beaubatons education and rights and stuff, but they quietly keep in touch with their Veela relatives and culture. And that's why she gets along so well with Bill, who works with goblins and isn't too concerned about him getting a bit wolfy :D

As to why the goblins put up with what they do now, I figure a) they're getting more out of the deal than the humans realize, and b) they're biding their time (and maybe planning a more subtle campaign than straight-up violent rebellion this time) :D

[harpsi-fizz.livejournal.com]

I lo-ho-hove that story concept you just came up with, first off. Second... the clothes in the Wizard World drive me up a wall, too. It's like Rowling wanted them to be different, but halfway through didn't like it, or she kept on forgetting or something. I prefer imagining the school uniforms being present, and for everything else... ugh, just screw everything else. So arbitrary, this system of robes.

I see she forgot about the hats, too.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

In fact, sod it – the Supremacists are actually better than mainstream society. At least their sense of superiority is consistent with their society’s views on Muggles – none of that hypocritical “Oh, Muggles are stupid and inferior – but whatever you do, don’t say so!” crap.

Yes!
That's one of the things that make me crazy in HP books.
The Supremacists are horrible bigots, racists and so on but the rest of the wizard world is almost the same (just not loud about it).
And Supremacists are feeling threatened in some ways by Muggles while the "good" wizards just see them as amusing and retarded pets.
I'm not happy about Tom's and DE's "kill and enslave the Muggles" attitude but the condescending attitude displayed by all wizards we are supposed to see as "good" is also horrible.
Plus, the "good side" is very casual about inflicting harm and mind damage on Muggles. :(

Percy appears to have walked out of the photograph. So does this mean that magical photographs are able to know and react to events around them? But how would Photo!Percy have known about the argument? And isn’t there a scene later in the book when Moody shows Harry a picture of the Order of the Phoenix, and Harry thinks something along the lines of “They had no idea that they’d shortly be killed”? Probably Arthur’s removed his son himself.

There are only two consistent things in the HP books :
1.Gryffindors in general and the trio in particular can do whatever they want with no consequences.
2.The working of anything magical can and will change from book to book with no regard to logic and common sense. Nothing will be ever properly explained so the author can use it as she see fit.

The mechanics of the wizarding photograph are definitively one of the thing covered by 2.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I'm not happy about Tom's and DE's "kill and enslave the Muggles" attitude but the condescending attitude displayed by all wizards we are supposed to see as "good" is also horrible.

Yeah. The thing is, it isn't Voldemort's kind of racism that the average reader of the books is more likely to confront in their real life (or I hope to God not). It's the kind of racism that we see exemplified by Arthur Weasley, Hagrid, and even Hermione. The "subtler" racism that occurs in people who believe they're good and tolerant people, but who look down on the Other and look the other way when the system mistreats or even abuses them.

JKR added the racism angle to her books as a cheap way of making them feel significant, and it's a lot easier to write genocidal megalomaniacs than it is to explore subtle societal racism.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Agreed. The megalomaniac approach also means that the author can avoid being confronted with the possibility that her own behavior might reflect that subtler prejudice, as it often can unconsciously happen with many people (not excluding myself). In this JKR does rather reflect some of the stereotypes on the site mentioned earlier (I dislike the site on the basis of its generalizing attitude, but some of the behaviors listed do occur depressingly frequently on the part of some people who consider themselves liberal). It's similar to the whole "Dumbles is gay" thing; JKR wants liberal cred but won't back up her position with action and reflection.at best it creates cognitive dissonance; at worst it suggests hypocrisy.