A Hive for the Buzzing Dumbledore
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deathtocapslockA Hive for the Buzzing Dumbledore
Author’s note: In the responses to oryx_leucoryx’s sporking of GoF 24, I wrote a mini-essay called, “The Truth about Aberforth.” In it, I mentioned in passing that I thought Albus Dumbledore was in Hufflepuff, (http://deathtocapslock.livejournal.com/146863.html) and oryx wanted to know why I believed that. When my reply to her got too long, I decided I’d better post it as a separate entry on DTCL. I’ve left oryx’s quoted remarks in my essay. It’s not necessary to read my original remarks to understand this piece, but it helps.
Hufflepuff? I have seen good arguments for both Ravenclaw (detachment, pride in his cleverness, analyzing emotions he doesn't actually experience) and Slytherin (how different is he from Tom?) but I can't see Hufflepuff. Who is he loyal to other than himself? Where is the work ethic? While I can see both Umbridge and Fudge as Hufflepuffs gone bad (though Umbridge has connections with Slytherins and Fudge can posture like the best of Gryffindor) I can't see the Twinkly One as such.
Glad you asked. :-) I've been wanting to present my arguments on Dumbledore's house for some time.
First of all, you do realize you're slandering Snape's house by implying Voldermort is representative of it, right? ;-) Albus and Tom are so much alike because they're both psychopaths. The corruption of that disorder makes all psychopaths seem more like each other than like other people who aren’t psychopaths. Of course Dumbledore's only loyal to himself. Of course he only works for his own self-aggrandizement. Those are both psychopathic characteristics.
I infer a Hufflepuff membership not for positive reasons but negative ones. Think of it like a painting of a tree. The tree is the positive space, i.e., the object you're supposed to look at, and the space around it is the negative space. There's nothing there, but without it, you wouldn't be able to see the tree. Because psychopaths are pathologically dishonest and inordinately manipulative, to understand them, you have to look at the negative spaces in their words and behavior, i. e., what they don’t say or do rather than what they do.
I know that sounds convoluted, so let me explain why I think Dumbledore is a Hufflepuff. My first argument is semi-facetious but is the kind of thing that would be considered very important if JKR were a more clever and subtle writer. "Dumbledore" means "bumblebee." Bees are yellow and black, which are the colors of Hufflepuff. The virtues you mentioned of loyalty and hard work are also characteristic of bees, which would have been a much more appropriate totem animal than a badger for that house.
My more important argument is the one involving negative space. We know Dumbledore went to extraordinary lengths to cover up what house he was in. This is particularly remarkable given his almost equally great penchant for bragging about himself, including his school career. He's happy to make public all the awards he allegedly won, the fellow students he supposedly helped (never for personal gain, of course), and what an all around Big Wizard on Campus he was. So why does he keep so quiet about this one particular piece of information?
If he were not a psychopath, I'd say he was so deeply ashamed of it, he couldn't bear to have it known publicly. Since psychopaths don't experience shame, the reason must be that it would damage, even ruin, his reputation.
I mentioned Dumbledore’s penchant for boasting about how great he is. Along with lying and manipulating, it's his most salient characteristic. And what does he like to boast about the most? How clever he is. So let's look at the houses and see how they accord with the impression of intellectual brilliance Albus liked to convey about himself.
Ravenclaw is the brainy house. Everyone who thinks Dumbledore is highly intelligent would expect him to be in Ravenclaw. Since Voldemort is also supposed to be very clever, it should reassure the public to know the head of his opposition was in the house for intellectuals. After all, one would expect a brilliant leader to come up with battle plans that would defeat the enemy as quickly as possible, thus minimizing both casualties and social disruption.
However, I don't think Dumbledore really is all that smart; he just thinks he is, and is good at convincing everyone else he is, too. At this point I’d like to add that being convinced you're smarter than everyone else is textbook psychopathic behavior. For example, some serial killers like to bait the police by playing "catch-me-if-you-can" games with them. What eventually gets psychopathic criminals caught is usually their overweening belief that their own cleverness and superiority are so great no one else can even compete with them, let alone outwit them.
On the other hand, it is literally impossible for someone who is not a psychopath to out-manipulate a psychopath. I therefore think Dumbledore's reputation for brilliance has little to do with actual brains and everything to do with (1) his ability to out-manipulate people, which makes them feel stupid, and thus believe he’s “outsmarted” them, and (2) his endless PR efforts on his own behalf.
The reasons oryx_leucoryx mentions that people give for thinking Dumbledore was in Ravenclaw are also characteristic of psychopaths, so they don’t necessarily infer his suitability for that house. That’s not to say everyone who is emotionally detached and analytical is a psychopath, just that psychopathy is an alternative explanation for why someone might possess those characteristics.
Slytherin also has smart people in it. The difference between Ravenclaw and Slytherin is that Ravenclaws are supposed to be more abstract and analytical in their intelligence, while Slytherins are supposed to be more practical. But the other attributes associated with Slytherin, namely cunning and ambition, are also associated with intelligence, so being a member of Slytherin would not disgrace a smart person.
Gryffindor is the jock house, but not all jocks are dumb. Hermione is pretty smart, even though she's not creative. James and Sirius were also supposed to be quite intelligent. However, what Gryffindor is mostly known for isfoolhardiness courage, which compensates to some extent for its lack of overt braininess.
I realize in PS/SS 6, the text seems to say Albus was in Gryffindor, but that’s not the case. Hermione says, “...I hope I’m in Gryffindor...I hear Dumbledore himself was in it....” In other words, it’s just a rumor that the Headmaster was in that house. Rumors can be started by anyone for any number of reasons, usually bad ones. If Dumbledore started that rumor, a reason for doing so is dealt with below.
It has also been suggested he must have been a Gryffindor because of the way he engaged in reckless behavior (such as putting on the Gaunt ring) and encouraged it in the Hogwarts students, not to mention letting monsters loose on school grounds. However, the extremely limited emotional range of psychopaths leaves them feeling under-stimulated much of the time, so they often produce excitement by creating chaos, committing crimes, or behaving in foolhardy ways.
Hufflepuff is the catchall house. People go there who aren’t smart enough for Ravenclaw, ambitious enough for Slytherin, or daring enough for Gryffindor. No wonder they value hard work: Take away those other avenues to success, and that’s the only way to get ahead. Mind you, there is no canonical evidence Hufflepuffs are intellectually inferior to members of the other houses. That’s just their reputation.
And that’s the problem. To a psychopath, appearance is everything. Because they have nothing inside themselves, they have no concept of inner virtues compensating for outer deficiencies.
Now, suppose you are a young man determined to prove to the world you are so brilliant that everyone must bow down before your superior intellect and allow you to run their lives for them. In that case, being known as an alumnus of the dimwitted duffer house would be fatal to your plans.
Imagine what would have happened if Albus had been in Hufflepluff and that had become public knowledge. Consider these scenarios:
(1) Dumbledore is trying to promote himself while socializing with a man he's just met.
DUMBLEDORE: I'm Albus Dumbledore. I won every academic award Hogwarts had to give. Many people think I’m a genius. [I'm assuming for the sake of argument that either he actually won those awards, or he tampered with his school records to make it look like he did.]
STRANGE MAN: Wow. A genius, huh? What house were you in?
DUMBLEDORE: Hufflepuff.
STRANGE MAN: Hufflepuff? *snicker* Hufflepuff? You were a genius in Hufflepuff? How dumb do you think I am? Everybody knows the really smart people go into Ravenclaw! Genius, my arse! Hah, hah, hah! You can't be all that smart if you were in Hufflepuff. [Calls to his friend.] Hey, Frank! Get a load of this guy! He says he was a genius in Hufflepuff!
SECOND STRANGE MAN: You’re kidding! A Hufflepuff genius? What’ll they think of next, a Muggle genius? Har, har, har!
[The two friends laugh so hard they have to grab onto each other to keep from falling down.]
(2) Albus has just taken over the world with his boyfriend, Gellert, and he's publicly addressing his new minions for the first time.
DUMBLEDORE: I am Albus Dumbledore, genius alumnus of Hogwarts. I am your new ruler, along with my friend, Gellert Grindelwald. Today Britain. Tomorrow the world!
HECKLER IN THE CROWD: Genius? You were in Hufflepuff, Albus! Do you think everyone who went to school with you has forgotten that? All the really smart people go into Ravenclaw, or at least Slytherin. Hufflepuff's where the average people go. I was in Gryffindor, and I'm not gonna let somebody who's dumber than I am order me around. [Turns around to leave.]
DUMBLEDORE: [Points his wand at the heckler] Avada kedavra! [Shrugs, then says quietly to Gellert] Hey, I only kill if I have to. [Addressing the crowd again] Anybody else want to make fun of me for being in Hufflepuff?
This scene raises some interesting questions: What happened to all the people who knew what house Albus was in? Did he pull a Hermione on the ones he couldn't con, corrupt, or intimidate into silence? Did he kill them? Did he arrange for them to be killed during Vold War I and blame the Death Eaters? Inquiring minds want to know!
Finally, I want to explain why Albus favored and disfavored the houses he did when he was Headmaster of Hogwarts.
Ravenclaw: Ravenclaws are very smart, but that’s a dangerous quality for minions to have, particularly if you’re someone who’s trying to rule his society without appearing to do so. However, their intellectual detachment may mean they’re more likely to sit around ruminating on their insights rather than acting on them. Very intelligent people can also be unexpectedly easy to manipulate because, like psychopaths, they may be convinced no one can outsmart them. Put that all together with his own conceit and Albus could reasonably assume they were safe to ignore most of the time.
Hufflepuff: Because they’re loyal, obedient, good workers, they’ll do what they’re told by whoever is in charge and usually not ask questions. They’re not threats like Slytherin, so they don’t have to be attacked, but they’re not valuable soldiers like Gryffindor, so they don’t need to be seduced into following Albus, either. Like Ravenclaw, they can be ignored most of the time.
Slytherin: As noted above, Slytherins are clever in a practical way, which means they are likely not just to see through Dumbledore and his lies, but also to take action against him. Their ambitiousness means they want power, too. Competition for Albus can’t be allowed, so he has to crush their power to ensure his own. In a tightly enclosed society like the British wizarding world, reputation is everything. Destroying Slytherin’s reputation destroys most of its power and taints what little power it does possess, thus effectively eliminating it as competition.
Gryffindor: Albus wantedcannon wand fodder. He needed a private army, and that was the house most likely to provide the best soldiers. To get his minions ready for war, he encouraged them to take foolish risks and bully attack other students, which provided them with valuable practice in mock battles with their victims opponents. By implying he was in that house rather than stating it outright, Albus encouraged Gryffindors to identify with and be loyal to him, while at the same time maintaining an appearance of house neutrality on his part. Plausible deniability is extremely important to psychopaths because being pinned down to a definite position or commitment makes it harder both to manipulate others and to evade the negative consequences of one’s own actions.
As a bonus, encouraging hostility between the houses kept the students so busy blaming each other for their problems that that they never noticed the real source of their conflicts: the Headmaster. Even if they had figured out he was to blame, they had to put so much effort into watching their backs that they didn’t have the time, energy, or attention to spare for banding together and demanding the school be run for their benefit rather than Dumbledore’s.
While it is ultimately impossible to know what house Dumbledore was in, my case for his having been in Hufflepuff is as strong as the cases made by others for his having been in Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin. His reasons for treating the houses as he did when he was Headmaster had nothing to do with either loyalty to his former house (since he was clearly the most treacherous of people) or personal preference. Instead, he was serving what he called “the greater good,” if by “good” you mean, “self-serving,” “manipulative,” and “ultimately injurious to the well-being of the students, school, and society as a whole.” But to psychopaths, the “greater good” refers only to what’s good for them. No one else matters.
Author’s note: In the responses to oryx_leucoryx’s sporking of GoF 24, I wrote a mini-essay called, “The Truth about Aberforth.” In it, I mentioned in passing that I thought Albus Dumbledore was in Hufflepuff, (http://deathtocapslock.livejournal.com/146863.html) and oryx wanted to know why I believed that. When my reply to her got too long, I decided I’d better post it as a separate entry on DTCL. I’ve left oryx’s quoted remarks in my essay. It’s not necessary to read my original remarks to understand this piece, but it helps.
Hufflepuff? I have seen good arguments for both Ravenclaw (detachment, pride in his cleverness, analyzing emotions he doesn't actually experience) and Slytherin (how different is he from Tom?) but I can't see Hufflepuff. Who is he loyal to other than himself? Where is the work ethic? While I can see both Umbridge and Fudge as Hufflepuffs gone bad (though Umbridge has connections with Slytherins and Fudge can posture like the best of Gryffindor) I can't see the Twinkly One as such.
Glad you asked. :-) I've been wanting to present my arguments on Dumbledore's house for some time.
First of all, you do realize you're slandering Snape's house by implying Voldermort is representative of it, right? ;-) Albus and Tom are so much alike because they're both psychopaths. The corruption of that disorder makes all psychopaths seem more like each other than like other people who aren’t psychopaths. Of course Dumbledore's only loyal to himself. Of course he only works for his own self-aggrandizement. Those are both psychopathic characteristics.
I infer a Hufflepuff membership not for positive reasons but negative ones. Think of it like a painting of a tree. The tree is the positive space, i.e., the object you're supposed to look at, and the space around it is the negative space. There's nothing there, but without it, you wouldn't be able to see the tree. Because psychopaths are pathologically dishonest and inordinately manipulative, to understand them, you have to look at the negative spaces in their words and behavior, i. e., what they don’t say or do rather than what they do.
I know that sounds convoluted, so let me explain why I think Dumbledore is a Hufflepuff. My first argument is semi-facetious but is the kind of thing that would be considered very important if JKR were a more clever and subtle writer. "Dumbledore" means "bumblebee." Bees are yellow and black, which are the colors of Hufflepuff. The virtues you mentioned of loyalty and hard work are also characteristic of bees, which would have been a much more appropriate totem animal than a badger for that house.
My more important argument is the one involving negative space. We know Dumbledore went to extraordinary lengths to cover up what house he was in. This is particularly remarkable given his almost equally great penchant for bragging about himself, including his school career. He's happy to make public all the awards he allegedly won, the fellow students he supposedly helped (never for personal gain, of course), and what an all around Big Wizard on Campus he was. So why does he keep so quiet about this one particular piece of information?
If he were not a psychopath, I'd say he was so deeply ashamed of it, he couldn't bear to have it known publicly. Since psychopaths don't experience shame, the reason must be that it would damage, even ruin, his reputation.
I mentioned Dumbledore’s penchant for boasting about how great he is. Along with lying and manipulating, it's his most salient characteristic. And what does he like to boast about the most? How clever he is. So let's look at the houses and see how they accord with the impression of intellectual brilliance Albus liked to convey about himself.
Ravenclaw is the brainy house. Everyone who thinks Dumbledore is highly intelligent would expect him to be in Ravenclaw. Since Voldemort is also supposed to be very clever, it should reassure the public to know the head of his opposition was in the house for intellectuals. After all, one would expect a brilliant leader to come up with battle plans that would defeat the enemy as quickly as possible, thus minimizing both casualties and social disruption.
However, I don't think Dumbledore really is all that smart; he just thinks he is, and is good at convincing everyone else he is, too. At this point I’d like to add that being convinced you're smarter than everyone else is textbook psychopathic behavior. For example, some serial killers like to bait the police by playing "catch-me-if-you-can" games with them. What eventually gets psychopathic criminals caught is usually their overweening belief that their own cleverness and superiority are so great no one else can even compete with them, let alone outwit them.
On the other hand, it is literally impossible for someone who is not a psychopath to out-manipulate a psychopath. I therefore think Dumbledore's reputation for brilliance has little to do with actual brains and everything to do with (1) his ability to out-manipulate people, which makes them feel stupid, and thus believe he’s “outsmarted” them, and (2) his endless PR efforts on his own behalf.
The reasons oryx_leucoryx mentions that people give for thinking Dumbledore was in Ravenclaw are also characteristic of psychopaths, so they don’t necessarily infer his suitability for that house. That’s not to say everyone who is emotionally detached and analytical is a psychopath, just that psychopathy is an alternative explanation for why someone might possess those characteristics.
Slytherin also has smart people in it. The difference between Ravenclaw and Slytherin is that Ravenclaws are supposed to be more abstract and analytical in their intelligence, while Slytherins are supposed to be more practical. But the other attributes associated with Slytherin, namely cunning and ambition, are also associated with intelligence, so being a member of Slytherin would not disgrace a smart person.
Gryffindor is the jock house, but not all jocks are dumb. Hermione is pretty smart, even though she's not creative. James and Sirius were also supposed to be quite intelligent. However, what Gryffindor is mostly known for is
I realize in PS/SS 6, the text seems to say Albus was in Gryffindor, but that’s not the case. Hermione says, “...I hope I’m in Gryffindor...I hear Dumbledore himself was in it....” In other words, it’s just a rumor that the Headmaster was in that house. Rumors can be started by anyone for any number of reasons, usually bad ones. If Dumbledore started that rumor, a reason for doing so is dealt with below.
It has also been suggested he must have been a Gryffindor because of the way he engaged in reckless behavior (such as putting on the Gaunt ring) and encouraged it in the Hogwarts students, not to mention letting monsters loose on school grounds. However, the extremely limited emotional range of psychopaths leaves them feeling under-stimulated much of the time, so they often produce excitement by creating chaos, committing crimes, or behaving in foolhardy ways.
Hufflepuff is the catchall house. People go there who aren’t smart enough for Ravenclaw, ambitious enough for Slytherin, or daring enough for Gryffindor. No wonder they value hard work: Take away those other avenues to success, and that’s the only way to get ahead. Mind you, there is no canonical evidence Hufflepuffs are intellectually inferior to members of the other houses. That’s just their reputation.
And that’s the problem. To a psychopath, appearance is everything. Because they have nothing inside themselves, they have no concept of inner virtues compensating for outer deficiencies.
Now, suppose you are a young man determined to prove to the world you are so brilliant that everyone must bow down before your superior intellect and allow you to run their lives for them. In that case, being known as an alumnus of the dimwitted duffer house would be fatal to your plans.
Imagine what would have happened if Albus had been in Hufflepluff and that had become public knowledge. Consider these scenarios:
(1) Dumbledore is trying to promote himself while socializing with a man he's just met.
DUMBLEDORE: I'm Albus Dumbledore. I won every academic award Hogwarts had to give. Many people think I’m a genius. [I'm assuming for the sake of argument that either he actually won those awards, or he tampered with his school records to make it look like he did.]
STRANGE MAN: Wow. A genius, huh? What house were you in?
DUMBLEDORE: Hufflepuff.
STRANGE MAN: Hufflepuff? *snicker* Hufflepuff? You were a genius in Hufflepuff? How dumb do you think I am? Everybody knows the really smart people go into Ravenclaw! Genius, my arse! Hah, hah, hah! You can't be all that smart if you were in Hufflepuff. [Calls to his friend.] Hey, Frank! Get a load of this guy! He says he was a genius in Hufflepuff!
SECOND STRANGE MAN: You’re kidding! A Hufflepuff genius? What’ll they think of next, a Muggle genius? Har, har, har!
[The two friends laugh so hard they have to grab onto each other to keep from falling down.]
(2) Albus has just taken over the world with his boyfriend, Gellert, and he's publicly addressing his new minions for the first time.
DUMBLEDORE: I am Albus Dumbledore, genius alumnus of Hogwarts. I am your new ruler, along with my friend, Gellert Grindelwald. Today Britain. Tomorrow the world!
HECKLER IN THE CROWD: Genius? You were in Hufflepuff, Albus! Do you think everyone who went to school with you has forgotten that? All the really smart people go into Ravenclaw, or at least Slytherin. Hufflepuff's where the average people go. I was in Gryffindor, and I'm not gonna let somebody who's dumber than I am order me around. [Turns around to leave.]
DUMBLEDORE: [Points his wand at the heckler] Avada kedavra! [Shrugs, then says quietly to Gellert] Hey, I only kill if I have to. [Addressing the crowd again] Anybody else want to make fun of me for being in Hufflepuff?
This scene raises some interesting questions: What happened to all the people who knew what house Albus was in? Did he pull a Hermione on the ones he couldn't con, corrupt, or intimidate into silence? Did he kill them? Did he arrange for them to be killed during Vold War I and blame the Death Eaters? Inquiring minds want to know!
Finally, I want to explain why Albus favored and disfavored the houses he did when he was Headmaster of Hogwarts.
Ravenclaw: Ravenclaws are very smart, but that’s a dangerous quality for minions to have, particularly if you’re someone who’s trying to rule his society without appearing to do so. However, their intellectual detachment may mean they’re more likely to sit around ruminating on their insights rather than acting on them. Very intelligent people can also be unexpectedly easy to manipulate because, like psychopaths, they may be convinced no one can outsmart them. Put that all together with his own conceit and Albus could reasonably assume they were safe to ignore most of the time.
Hufflepuff: Because they’re loyal, obedient, good workers, they’ll do what they’re told by whoever is in charge and usually not ask questions. They’re not threats like Slytherin, so they don’t have to be attacked, but they’re not valuable soldiers like Gryffindor, so they don’t need to be seduced into following Albus, either. Like Ravenclaw, they can be ignored most of the time.
Slytherin: As noted above, Slytherins are clever in a practical way, which means they are likely not just to see through Dumbledore and his lies, but also to take action against him. Their ambitiousness means they want power, too. Competition for Albus can’t be allowed, so he has to crush their power to ensure his own. In a tightly enclosed society like the British wizarding world, reputation is everything. Destroying Slytherin’s reputation destroys most of its power and taints what little power it does possess, thus effectively eliminating it as competition.
Gryffindor: Albus wanted
As a bonus, encouraging hostility between the houses kept the students so busy blaming each other for their problems that that they never noticed the real source of their conflicts: the Headmaster. Even if they had figured out he was to blame, they had to put so much effort into watching their backs that they didn’t have the time, energy, or attention to spare for banding together and demanding the school be run for their benefit rather than Dumbledore’s.
While it is ultimately impossible to know what house Dumbledore was in, my case for his having been in Hufflepuff is as strong as the cases made by others for his having been in Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin. His reasons for treating the houses as he did when he was Headmaster had nothing to do with either loyalty to his former house (since he was clearly the most treacherous of people) or personal preference. Instead, he was serving what he called “the greater good,” if by “good” you mean, “self-serving,” “manipulative,” and “ultimately injurious to the well-being of the students, school, and society as a whole.” But to psychopaths, the “greater good” refers only to what’s good for them. No one else matters.
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Date: 2011-06-22 04:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 04:20 pm (UTC)Some points: Is it possible that Albus' prizes were completely made up? Not in the sense that these are real prizes that were given out and he arranged it for people to remember that in those years he was the one who won them, but in the sense that those prizes never existed, were never given out in any year, and Dumbles created the false memory of their existence and his winning of said prizes? After all, Tom's trophy for special services to the school is in the trophy room, but where are Tom's trophies for outstanding spell-casting or whatever?
People who knew Albus' true House - at the very least Aberforth, Elphias and Prof Marchbanks, very likely Bathilda Bagshot when she was still lucid. Marchbanks was very happy to brag about Albus' outstanding magical performance in his exams, Bathilda was willing to gossip about Albus and Gellert, yet Albus' true House remains a secret.
Hufflepuff is the catchall house. People go there who aren’t smart enough for Ravenclaw, ambitious enough for Slytherin, or daring enough for Gryffindor.
I disagree. This argument is used by anti-Slytherins to claim that House is where those not good enough for other Houses go (as an explanation for people like Vincent and Greg). It can be used by anti-Gryffs (such as myself) as an explanation for Lavender, Parvati and Seamus. I don't really believe any House is really a catchall House. The Hat balances the kid's traits with the kid's wishes. I doubt it would be possible for the Hat to send a kid (and especially a wizarding-raised kid) to a House the kid didn't want at all. And there is no way 11-year old Albus would want to be in Hufflepuff. Also, it doesn't matter if Albus' similarity to Ravenclaws or Slytherins is the result of his pathology. Whatever the cause, the Hat would sense the outcome. Isn't Tom's similarity to Slytherin the result of his pathology?
I agree with the reasons you gave for his treatment of the Houses. And as you say, those reasons stand no matter what his true House was.
How the rumor about his House started? I'm guessing Aberforth was in Gryffindor. But was marginalized and little-known. So there already was a record of an A. Dumbledore at Hogwarts, almost in the correct years. that would be the starting point. But there must have been more than just rumor involved, because even those who knew Albus in his youth went along with the rumors.
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Date: 2011-06-22 08:50 pm (UTC)I tend to agree.
And this discussion has me keep thinking about that comment Dumbles made to Snape regarding "Sometimes we sort too soon..."
The implication being that Snape should have been in "brave" Gryffindor instead of "sly/cunning" Slytherin...
But perhaps the truth of the hat sorting too soon is that Dumbles himself was sorted too soon into Gryffindor (at 11 y.o. Dumbles own insistence), and he really should have gone into Slytherin...or whatever other house someone cares to argue for. LOL
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Date: 2011-06-22 09:26 pm (UTC)He is good with projection. When he asked Harry to pity those who lived without love, any chance he was speaking of himself?
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Date: 2011-06-23 04:44 am (UTC)Oh, yes, that had occurred to me. It's certainly a Watsonian explanation for why we don't hear anything about them until DH. Of course, it could also be that Albus was just so sooper dooper wonderful that they retired the awards after he left school because nobody else deserved to win them again ever. :D
Hufflepuff is the catchall house. People go there who aren’t smart enough for Ravenclaw, ambitious enough for Slytherin, or daring enough for Gryffindor.
I disagree. This argument is used by anti-Slytherins to claim that House is where those not good enough for other Houses go (as an explanation for people like Vincent and Greg). It can be used by anti-Gryffs (such as myself) as an explanation for Lavender, Parvati and Seamus. I don't really believe any House is really a catchall House.
I wasn't sure about calling Hufflepuff the catchall house, so I looked at what the Sorting Hat said in the Lexicon. In OotP 11, it sings a long song about the history of the founders' friendship. Part of it goes like this:
Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those
Whose ancestry is purest."
Said Ravenclaw, "We'll teach those whose
Intelligence is surest."
Said Gryffindor, "We'll teach all those
With brave deeds to their name."
Said Hufflepuff, "I'll teach the lot,
And treat them just the same."...
For instance, Slytherin
Took only pure-blood wizards
Of great cunning, just like him,
And only those of sharpest mind
Were taught by Ravenclaw
While the bravest and the boldest
Went to daring Gryffindor.
Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest,
And taught them all she knew, ...
That sure sounds to me like Helga took whoever didn't fit into the other houses exactly, or who didn't have a strong preference. Granted, in the other 2 songs, her house is said to value hard work (GoF) and justice, loyalty, patience, and honesty (PS/SS 7), but that statement is not incompatible with taking the leftover kids.
Compare that with what the Hat says about the other houses: Gryffindor is always described as being for the brave and daring; Ravenclaw is always said to be for the brainy and learned. Slytherin is for the cunning (PS/SS), ambitious (GoF), and pure-blooded (OotP). Slytherin is described with different characteristics each time, but they are nonetheless specific attributes. Only Hufflepuff is described as taking "the lot" and "the rest." So I think it's valid to call it the catchall house.
The Hat balances the kid's traits with the kid's wishes. I doubt it would be possible for the Hat to send a kid (and especially a wizarding-raised kid) to a House the kid didn't want at all. And there is no way 11-year old Albus would want to be in Hufflepuff.
Really? For a young psychopath wanting to develop his manipulation skills, Hufflepuff would be the perfect place to learn to con people more effectively. My oldest sister (not the psychopath; I have 2 sisters) would undoubtedly be in that house because she's a perfect worker bee: respectful of authority, hard-working, loyal, and responsible. She's also very easy for our other sister to con because she wants so desperately to believe psycho sis's lies. Even our mother, who wants intensely to believe all her kids are great, and she did a great job raising us, is more inclined to distrust psycho sis than our other sister is.
TBC
no subject
Date: 2011-06-24 05:46 am (UTC)Most kids fit into more than one House, few fit into one exactly. If a kid really doesn't have a preference s/he will be sent to one of those Houses s/he potentially fits - I would guess the Hat would consider if the fit is significantly better to one vs another as well as which House is likely to have free slots (in Terri's fic the Hat has the list of names of incoming students in advance, so it makes a guess regarding the sorting of wizarding-born kids, but is nevertheless open to suggestions).
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Date: 2011-06-26 07:30 pm (UTC)The WW needs citizens with the main qualities of all four of the Houses. With 7 years of indoctrination they'll learn the qualities of whichever one they are sent to.
Assuming that they are *capable* of learning via peer pressure, that is. Some people aren't.
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Date: 2011-06-23 05:23 am (UTC)Building a Hufflepuff fan base would also give Albus the chance to gather a group of minions before he left school that he could use to pave his path to power. Since they make up 25% of the population, having them on his side would make that many fewer people he'd have to win over. It would also make it easier for him to promote his reputation for goodness because if those pillar-of-the-community types vouched for him, he must be a great guy, right?
Also, it doesn't matter if Albus' similarity to Ravenclaws or Slytherins is the result of his pathology. Whatever the cause, the Hat would sense the outcome. Isn't Tom's similarity to Slytherin the result of his pathology?
Not necessarily. We don't know enough about Tom to know what he would be like if he weren't a psychopath. There are plenty of people in the books who value ambition and cunning (Severus) or pure blood (the Malfoys and Blacks) who aren't psychopaths. It stands to reason that a boy of unknown ancestry who grew up in an orphanage during the Depression and WWII would be obsessed with getting ahead and achieving power over his own life. Growing up in such deprived conditions could also have made him very cunning at achieving his ends. Many people are sneaky and manipulative without being psychopaths.
I also don't buy that the Hat is perfect at reading people's minds. (Hey, if you want everything perfect, read Twilight. :-) ) It's just a tool created by a human being, a kind of magical personality test administrator and grader. All tools are flawed because they're created by flawed humans. The Sorting Hat must have made mistakes occasionally. Many people have commented on how idiotic it is to set the course of someone's life when they're 11-years-old, and their personality has not fully developed. And while I'm sure Albus's "sort too soon" remark was intended as a dig at Severus, that doesn't mean it didn't have a grain of truth to it.
I agree with the reasons you gave for his treatment of the Houses. And as you say, those reasons stand no matter what his true House was.
Thank you. I'm very proud of that; I think I came up with something truly original there.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-23 01:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 04:25 pm (UTC)I think Dumbledore was in Gryffindor for several trivial reasons, although I realize they can all be explained away.
I don't think houses contain students who necessarily possess the traits the houses represent, but rather students who value those traits above all others, even if they don't initially display them. This explains Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor. He may have not been as intrinsically brave and show-off-y as other Gryffindors, but he valued bravery and renown more than he valued abstract intellect, loyal effort, or wily ambition. Hermione Granger valued intellect, but mostly to boost her reputation and help her friends in adventures, not for intellect's own sake. I think students possibly come to possess the traits they treasure most by choosing the house that encompasses those traits, sort of like the little engine that could, I think I'm brave, I know I'm brave. Neville may have been self-effacing and hesitant at first, but he ended up a brave leader.
In the what you value over what you are argument, Hufflepuffs are not dumber than students in other houses. They just value loyalty and hard work more than intellect. A Ravenclaw might not be especially smart, but would value ideas and questions over many other things. A Slytherin Quidditch player might want to win as much as a Gryffindor, but would value craftiness and consistent pushing towards the goal (ambition) over sheer guts and bravado.
What did Dumbledore value, but fame, a reputation as a leader (hence, his flirting wth taking over the world), the reputation as a wizard so bad-assed that he was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, the only one who said Voldemort's name with impunity?
Also, you slander Ravenclaws by claiming they don't feel (Cho) or are easily manipulated (Luna)! You slander Hufflepuffs by implying the house is a dumping ground for "the rest" (Cedric, school champion)! And you ... you are fair and balanced about Slytherins.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 05:51 pm (UTC)Peter is more classical Gryff than Remus, whose placement hardly anyone challenges. Peter was a reckless risk-taker both in his youth and his adulthood.
Neville may have been self-effacing and hesitant at first, but he ended up a brave leader.
Neville was brave all along. He started a fist-fight with the Slytherin trio in PS, for Merlin's sake. Let alone his attempt to stop the trio at the end of the book. And he wore bunny slippers to boarding school in third year - not someone who could be intimidated by public opinion.
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Date: 2011-06-23 01:06 pm (UTC)Rather than challenging them to a fight to be held later ... and then not turning up? Which would have made him not-brave - i.e. a coward - right?
;-)
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
no subject
Date: 2011-06-23 01:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-23 01:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-24 05:00 pm (UTC)I don't know that Neville fell into that category at that point in the book, but it's very possible -- he was clearly thinking about whether people thought he was "good enough for Gryffindor" at the time.
Draco certainly isn't afraid that people will consider him cowardly, at least.
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Date: 2011-06-24 05:39 pm (UTC)Can we look for other examples of moral bravery in the series?
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Date: 2011-06-23 03:55 pm (UTC)The Longbottoms sound like Gryffs starting from Augusta's generation at least (though she wasn't Longbottom by birth, and we don't know if Algie is her brother or brother-in-law). James' father was a Gryffindor and anti-Dark Arts, anti-Muggleborn-discrimination.
The Macmillans were Hufflepuffs and supporters of Dumbles - but how long?
no subject
Date: 2011-06-23 04:58 pm (UTC)However. Like
Ravenclaw: how brainy are the Ravenclaws really? This isn't relevant to your argument, since if Dumbledore was in Ravenclaw he had no reason to hide it. But look at the main Ravenclaws: sporty Cho, flaky Luna, whiny Myrtle, treacherous Marietta, disloyal Helena Ravenclaw. Where are they shown to be exceptionally bright, or to value learning, intelligence or intellectual curiosity? Oh, right, Helena stole her mom's UBSmart device. I actually have a high opinion of Cho's general intelligence (and good nature), but the researchers and intellectuals seem to be in Slytherin or Gryffindor.
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Date: 2011-06-24 06:03 am (UTC)Nah, I think Rowling is convinced she stated his House was Gryffindor.
And he'd have every motive to downplay his Sorting after the rise of Voldemort, when Slytherin got a rep as the Evil House.
I think he started downplaying his House long before it became known who the DEs were (and few knew who Voldemort was). Terri made the argument that the public view of the House of Slytherin became tainted towards the end of the war, when Severus' spying started resulting in arrests. Of course Albus knew more than anyone who Voldemort was and whom he was recruiting. He also knew whom he wanted to recruit to his private army.
Ravenclaw: how brainy are the Ravenclaws really? This isn't relevant to your argument, since if Dumbledore was in Ravenclaw he had no reason to hide it.
Lynn argues that he may have been a Ravenclaw and regretted it - at King's Cross he speaks of how he was led astray by his cleverness and his pride in it.
As to Ravenclaws - I don't think we know enough about this House because Harry can't be bothered about them. They do have the riddle system for entering their common room. Here is my list of suspected Ravenclaw adults: both of Luna's parents, Ollivander, Bathilda Bagshot, Nicolas Flamel. What they have in common is that they derive much satisfaction from spending time and energy following an esoteric pursuit, living inside their heads more than in the world (though Xeno attempts to connect to his version of reality through his paper).
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Date: 2011-06-24 10:30 am (UTC)hum...I seem to remember in one of the movies. Didn't Dumbledore have a conversation with harry about setting the bed curtains on fire? I don't know that i was stating he was a Gryffindor but it gave me the feeling that was part of the implication to the conversation. That DD had been a Gryff...or maybe I'm just imagining it.
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Date: 2011-06-24 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-26 06:59 am (UTC)These are traits that would make someone an excellent teacher, or social worker, or attorney, or a respected politician.
They are not exactly traits that make someone "easily manipulated" or an obedient "minion." In fact, Hufflepuffs might be the most likely to challenge the status quo if they believe a situation to be corrupt or unjust.
If Gryffindors are known for their courage and daring, Ravenclaws for their intellect, and Slytherins for cunning and ambition, then Hufflepuffs are known for their integrity. They are the moral leaders of the WW.
Thus, it is not at all surprising that the Goblet of Fire chose a Hufflepuff to represent Britain in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.
Nor is it all that surprising that Rowling is so disparaging of Hufflepuffs.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-26 06:10 pm (UTC)