GOF Chapter 36: The Parting of the Ways.
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deathtocapslockIn the previous chapter 7 persons were gathered in the DADA classroom: Barty, Harry, Albus, Minerva, Severus, Winky and (finally) the real Alastor Moody. These are the people who have heard Barty's confession first hand.
Albus secures Barty with magical ropes and orders Minerva to guard him. Sends Severus to arrange for medical help for Alastor and then to bring Fudge to question Barty. Takes Harry with him to his office. So what about Winky? I believe the previous chapter is the last time she is seen in canon. (I checked - in the next chapter Poppy is sent to return her to Dobby's care.) Dobby mentions her once in OOTP (when he tells Harry how he sometimes finds a bed for her in the ROR). I suppose as far as Rowling is concerned she vanished.
Suddenly Harry remembers the pain in his leg, that mysterious pain that never stops Harry when the plot needs him to act, but is at other times unbearable.
Pomona was Cedric's Head of house and knew him best (among the staff, I presume). If she was a more involved Head of House than Minerva, that is. Which I find easy to believe. Heck, I find it easy enough to believe Horace was a more involved Head of House than Minerva.
As Albus promised, Sirius was waiting in his office. What was he thinking when Severus took him there from Hagrid's place? Did Severus conjure a leash for him?
"I knew it - I knew something like this - what happened?" - What did Sirius know (or believe he knew) at this point? If he was outside Hagrid's hut during the third task then he did not see Cedric's body.
Does Albus really believe telling everything in detail now is the best for Harry or does he just say that because *he* wants to be the first to hear the details, so he can decide how to act and what to tell whom quickly? I don't think psychologists would agree with Albus' approach.
Both Sirius and Albus react most strongly to the part where Peter drew Harry's blood. Sirius because of Peter's pattern of repeated betrayal, but Albus because he had a realization that caused him to have that 'gleam of something like triumph'. He realized that if things played out right there was a chance for Harry to survive the destruction of the Horcrux. (Which meant it was time to revise his plans.) I notice no reaction to Voldemort's mention of going beyond any wizard before him in search for immortality, but that was supposed to be another major realization - that there were more Horcruxes around.
Sirius doesn't know about how brother wands interact, but he is familiar with the term. I wonder if there is a wizarding fairy tale about that concept. Actual brother wands must be rather rare. Except when you have a phoenix, you know a master wandmaker and you have a lifelong interest in an uberwand.
No spell can bring back the dead. But there are so many ways for the dead to stick around and interact with the living anyway: ghosts, portraits, the resurrection stone.
Just as Harry reaches the end of his tale he feels as though he can't continue. Strange that. Oh and Fawkes heals his leg, so we no longer have to worry about that pain coming and going.
Albus praises Harry's bravery - equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. This of course includes Harry's parents, but I find it interesting that Albus doesn't mention them specifically, because I'd think this was an obvious place to mention them positively. Perhaps Albus didn't think all that much of Harry's parents' role in the fighting?
Now that Albus heard the story he can forbid others to pester Harry with questions. So was talking about the events good or bad for Harry? Or perhaps Albus didn't care one way or the other, he just wanted to control the flow of information.
So Harry, back from the maze and the graveyard, changes into pajamas (without showering! one bath per book is enough!) and goes to sleep, surrounded by Padfoot, Molly, Ron, Hermione and Bill (with Poppy and Alastor also in the hospital wing) as Albus goes back to the DADA classroom to talk to Fudge.
Despite the dreamless sleep potion Harry wakes up shortly thereafter, to the sound of a loud argument between Minerva and Fudge. Oops, Fudge's pet dementor just ate Barty's soul - and it looks like Albus doesn't know yet. So where did he go?
Ah, Severus is here to provide an explanation: When Fudge heard the events of that night were caused by a DE, and that DE was caught, he went to get a dementor. So it looks like Albus came to the DADA classroom, saw Minerva guarding Barty and that Fudge hadn't arrived yet so he went off somewhere. Of course there is a slight inaccuracy in Severus' version - unless he has an undisclosed conjoined twin there weren't any 'we' who told Fudge about Barty's capture, it was him alone. And what did he tell Fudge that prompted the latter to go get a dementor? As Jodel wrote, he may have said that the culprit was an escaped prisoner, knowing Fudge would assume it was Sirius and arrange for him to get kissed before he noticed it was some other escaped prisoner. Why do that? Doesn't such an action sabotage Albus? Well, only a bit. But not taking this action was a risk Severus couldn't afford - remember how in the previous chapter we saw him looking at length at his image in Barty's foe glass? The last thing Severus wanted was for Voldemort to learn about that. (He is so lucky Voldemort is too proud of his Legilimency skills to resort to more objective means.)
Fudge sees no harm in the desoulment of Barty, but Albus is concerned that now he can't testify. Not because justice matters in Wizarding Britain but because Albus knows that after all his information-hoarding people not in-the-know will find Harry's story hard to believe. Really, Fudge's version, whereby a DE driven to madness acted on a delusion makes a lot of sense. Still, doesn't Fudge care how Barty managed to escape Azkaban in the first place? OTOH, as far as Fudge knows, much hangs on the testimony of Harry, whom Albus forbids to question, and what people heard a crazy man say. And then this morning's article about Harry makes him appear almost as mad as Barty. Nor does Albus' partial explanation of what Harry's scar does help. Because Fudge is right - curse scars don't act that way. Or in DH we would have heard Bill say he knew Fenrir was acting up somewhere when he felt the pain in his face. Albus' concealment of the existence of the Harrycrux came to bite him.
Harry tries to help by repeating the names of DEs he heard at the graveyard - all of whose clearance years ago was published in the press. (The one I am most puzzled about is Nott. He was among the first generation of DEs, probably from Tom's own schoolmates. Albus knew he was a DE from the time Tom returned to the country, yet he managed to get himself cleared. What gives?) And since the previous year Harry claimed the dead Pettigrew was alive and the one who had committed the crimes Sirius had been accused of Fudge sees him as habitually delusional.
Oh! Severus makes a sudden movement upon hearing Lucius' name! (And then looks back at Fudge...) Because he doesn't want anyone to make accusations against his friend? Or because he knows Fudge won't take seriously accusations against people that were cleared (especially one whom he saw as a pillar of mainstream society)? Or was he astonished that Tom actually named people in the circle, against his past custom?
Now Albus starts offering advice, ie orders - remove the dementors, contact the giants - presumably because he heard from Harry Voldemort was going to use both groups. Perhaps if the dementors had been replaced by something else it would have been harder for Tom to break Bella and the rest out of prison. Maybe. As if he couldn't have mind-controlled whoever would have been posted in the dementors' place. Might have delayed him by a few weeks (or a year, if the plot demanded that). OTOH Albus doesn't say what to do with the dementors that are supposed to be relieved of their duty in Azkaban. So if Fudge had followed his advice would we have seen dementors breeding in the countryside since Harry's 5th year?
Of course Albus was doing his case no favors, considering Fudge has had reasons not to trust him for a year by now. On top of that, now Albus accuses Fudge of blood prejudice. Ahem, the only prejudice we have seen Fudge engage in was against half-giants (and to a lesser degree against werewolves) - which is common across wizarding political groups, including those who are inclusive towards Muggle-borns. He is also prejudiced against Parselmouths, which would actually place him away from traditional old wizarding families. In fact, Fudge's prejudices are no different from those Ron was raised with. We have discussed this many times here - Rowling's 'good guys' are just as prejudiced as her villains in all aspects but one. Which could have still been made to work if it were acknowledged. After all, many of those who fought against the Nazis went back home to racially or ethnically segregated societies (whether by law or social custom) and it took the work of generations to improve that situation (and we aren't all the way through still, there is plenty of tribalism and xenophobia still around). But no, somehow if we just put the trio and Order veterans in charge all will be well because we are not supposed to notice the prejudices of the 'good guys'.
As long as Fudge is against Voldemort Albus remains on the same side with him. But he still started a private army during the first war and recruited Aurors, when the Ministry was against Voldemort, so I'm not sure Ministry-Albus cooperation was ever an option. The only way they can cooperate is if the Minister does as Albus tells hir.
Yes, Fudge is refusing to believe that Voldemort is back, but it isn't as if he was given any serious evidence. But now Severus shows him his Mark is back. Too bad Fudge (having spent the first war in the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes rather than in the DMLE) has no idea what this means. A great illustration of the downside of the compartmentalization of information. Does Fudge think Severus is part of Albus' conspiracy to take over the running of the Ministry?
Poor Harry! Because of Cedric's death he can't receive his prize in a proper ceremony!
It's Arthur's fondness of Muggles that held him back at the Ministry all these years - and kept him out in the shed while at home. Because Molly doesn't care for Muggles any more than Fudge does. (Fudge only became Minister a year before PS. What kept Arthur back before Fudge's appointment? I'll tell you what - he wasn't half as good at his job as Percy was at his.)
Bill gets sent to tell Arthur to contact potential supporters at the Ministry. This brings to the recruitment of Kingsley and Tonks. Maybe also Hestia Jones (Moody doesn't mention her when he shows Harry the Order photograph, but we don't know if she is at the Ministry, nor do we know if Moody simply didn't get around to showing her. She may have been somewhere in a corner with Mundungus and Arabella). Of course the greatest advantage of having the Weasleys' support is that they bring up the numbers all by themselves.
Minerva is sent to bring Hagrid and maybe also Olympe. Their mission will result in recruiting Grawp. Who will serve as a deus ex machina once. (OK, he also punches the 2 giants Voldemort manages to recruit.)
Poppy is sent to take care of Winky. Nice of Albus to remember her. But this is all because he doesn't want Poppy to see Sirius. Severus is horrified to see him - even if IMO he should have known Sirius was not the one who betrayed the Potters (all it would have taken was to PI his own wand after the dust settled the night Sirius escaped). But then, knowing Sirius' other history perhaps Severus was expecting Albus not to trust Sirius again. Of course Sirius isn't happy to see Severus among Albus' forces now that he received confirmation that indeed Severus was a DE.
Albus forces the two to shake hands and demands no open hostility. As if. Nice of Rowling to show that both of them were acting equally hostile to the other.
Sirius is sent to Remus and other members of the 'old crowd' - did Rowling only invent the term 'Order of the Phoenix' during the three year summer? Anyway, considering that much of the 'old crowd' was at the school that day (and I imagine Albus can contact his brother in Hogsmeade himself) the number of people Sirius was to alert is no more than 8 (and that includes Remus).
Sirius can't wait to go back to his dog form, that he ends up having to turn the door handle with his paw.
Severus' assignment is so secret Albus won't mention it in front of Harry (or anyone else present) despite the fact that soon enough both sides of the war will know he is reporting to both of them. (His real secret is his true loyalty - whom is he reporting to fully and truthfully?) I like the mention of unusual pallor and glittering eyes. This is not an easy moment for him. Hey, there's a 'trace of apprehension' on Albus' face for Severus! For the spy, not the person, of course.
How cruel of Molly to remind Harry of the money Cedric should have won at a time like this! Oh the horror! It is so bad Harry might risk crying in front of Ron, Hermione and Molly! Oh, thanks Hermione for making that banging noise to distract our hero from his emotions. Oops, that's not why she did it - she just captured Rita. Who must have entered the room through the window at some point. I can't find the moment the window was opened nor do we have any mention of a humming noise, so we don't know how long Rita was in the room and what she saw or overheard. But she certainly knows that wanted supposed criminal Sirius Black is being aided and abetted by Albus and that Albus is restarting his little extra-govenment militia to which he will recruit members of the government.
Albus secures Barty with magical ropes and orders Minerva to guard him. Sends Severus to arrange for medical help for Alastor and then to bring Fudge to question Barty. Takes Harry with him to his office. So what about Winky? I believe the previous chapter is the last time she is seen in canon. (I checked - in the next chapter Poppy is sent to return her to Dobby's care.) Dobby mentions her once in OOTP (when he tells Harry how he sometimes finds a bed for her in the ROR). I suppose as far as Rowling is concerned she vanished.
Suddenly Harry remembers the pain in his leg, that mysterious pain that never stops Harry when the plot needs him to act, but is at other times unbearable.
Pomona was Cedric's Head of house and knew him best (among the staff, I presume). If she was a more involved Head of House than Minerva, that is. Which I find easy to believe. Heck, I find it easy enough to believe Horace was a more involved Head of House than Minerva.
As Albus promised, Sirius was waiting in his office. What was he thinking when Severus took him there from Hagrid's place? Did Severus conjure a leash for him?
"I knew it - I knew something like this - what happened?" - What did Sirius know (or believe he knew) at this point? If he was outside Hagrid's hut during the third task then he did not see Cedric's body.
Does Albus really believe telling everything in detail now is the best for Harry or does he just say that because *he* wants to be the first to hear the details, so he can decide how to act and what to tell whom quickly? I don't think psychologists would agree with Albus' approach.
Both Sirius and Albus react most strongly to the part where Peter drew Harry's blood. Sirius because of Peter's pattern of repeated betrayal, but Albus because he had a realization that caused him to have that 'gleam of something like triumph'. He realized that if things played out right there was a chance for Harry to survive the destruction of the Horcrux. (Which meant it was time to revise his plans.) I notice no reaction to Voldemort's mention of going beyond any wizard before him in search for immortality, but that was supposed to be another major realization - that there were more Horcruxes around.
Sirius doesn't know about how brother wands interact, but he is familiar with the term. I wonder if there is a wizarding fairy tale about that concept. Actual brother wands must be rather rare. Except when you have a phoenix, you know a master wandmaker and you have a lifelong interest in an uberwand.
No spell can bring back the dead. But there are so many ways for the dead to stick around and interact with the living anyway: ghosts, portraits, the resurrection stone.
Just as Harry reaches the end of his tale he feels as though he can't continue. Strange that. Oh and Fawkes heals his leg, so we no longer have to worry about that pain coming and going.
Albus praises Harry's bravery - equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. This of course includes Harry's parents, but I find it interesting that Albus doesn't mention them specifically, because I'd think this was an obvious place to mention them positively. Perhaps Albus didn't think all that much of Harry's parents' role in the fighting?
Now that Albus heard the story he can forbid others to pester Harry with questions. So was talking about the events good or bad for Harry? Or perhaps Albus didn't care one way or the other, he just wanted to control the flow of information.
So Harry, back from the maze and the graveyard, changes into pajamas (without showering! one bath per book is enough!) and goes to sleep, surrounded by Padfoot, Molly, Ron, Hermione and Bill (with Poppy and Alastor also in the hospital wing) as Albus goes back to the DADA classroom to talk to Fudge.
Despite the dreamless sleep potion Harry wakes up shortly thereafter, to the sound of a loud argument between Minerva and Fudge. Oops, Fudge's pet dementor just ate Barty's soul - and it looks like Albus doesn't know yet. So where did he go?
Ah, Severus is here to provide an explanation: When Fudge heard the events of that night were caused by a DE, and that DE was caught, he went to get a dementor. So it looks like Albus came to the DADA classroom, saw Minerva guarding Barty and that Fudge hadn't arrived yet so he went off somewhere. Of course there is a slight inaccuracy in Severus' version - unless he has an undisclosed conjoined twin there weren't any 'we' who told Fudge about Barty's capture, it was him alone. And what did he tell Fudge that prompted the latter to go get a dementor? As Jodel wrote, he may have said that the culprit was an escaped prisoner, knowing Fudge would assume it was Sirius and arrange for him to get kissed before he noticed it was some other escaped prisoner. Why do that? Doesn't such an action sabotage Albus? Well, only a bit. But not taking this action was a risk Severus couldn't afford - remember how in the previous chapter we saw him looking at length at his image in Barty's foe glass? The last thing Severus wanted was for Voldemort to learn about that. (He is so lucky Voldemort is too proud of his Legilimency skills to resort to more objective means.)
Fudge sees no harm in the desoulment of Barty, but Albus is concerned that now he can't testify. Not because justice matters in Wizarding Britain but because Albus knows that after all his information-hoarding people not in-the-know will find Harry's story hard to believe. Really, Fudge's version, whereby a DE driven to madness acted on a delusion makes a lot of sense. Still, doesn't Fudge care how Barty managed to escape Azkaban in the first place? OTOH, as far as Fudge knows, much hangs on the testimony of Harry, whom Albus forbids to question, and what people heard a crazy man say. And then this morning's article about Harry makes him appear almost as mad as Barty. Nor does Albus' partial explanation of what Harry's scar does help. Because Fudge is right - curse scars don't act that way. Or in DH we would have heard Bill say he knew Fenrir was acting up somewhere when he felt the pain in his face. Albus' concealment of the existence of the Harrycrux came to bite him.
Harry tries to help by repeating the names of DEs he heard at the graveyard - all of whose clearance years ago was published in the press. (The one I am most puzzled about is Nott. He was among the first generation of DEs, probably from Tom's own schoolmates. Albus knew he was a DE from the time Tom returned to the country, yet he managed to get himself cleared. What gives?) And since the previous year Harry claimed the dead Pettigrew was alive and the one who had committed the crimes Sirius had been accused of Fudge sees him as habitually delusional.
Oh! Severus makes a sudden movement upon hearing Lucius' name! (And then looks back at Fudge...) Because he doesn't want anyone to make accusations against his friend? Or because he knows Fudge won't take seriously accusations against people that were cleared (especially one whom he saw as a pillar of mainstream society)? Or was he astonished that Tom actually named people in the circle, against his past custom?
Now Albus starts offering advice, ie orders - remove the dementors, contact the giants - presumably because he heard from Harry Voldemort was going to use both groups. Perhaps if the dementors had been replaced by something else it would have been harder for Tom to break Bella and the rest out of prison. Maybe. As if he couldn't have mind-controlled whoever would have been posted in the dementors' place. Might have delayed him by a few weeks (or a year, if the plot demanded that). OTOH Albus doesn't say what to do with the dementors that are supposed to be relieved of their duty in Azkaban. So if Fudge had followed his advice would we have seen dementors breeding in the countryside since Harry's 5th year?
Of course Albus was doing his case no favors, considering Fudge has had reasons not to trust him for a year by now. On top of that, now Albus accuses Fudge of blood prejudice. Ahem, the only prejudice we have seen Fudge engage in was against half-giants (and to a lesser degree against werewolves) - which is common across wizarding political groups, including those who are inclusive towards Muggle-borns. He is also prejudiced against Parselmouths, which would actually place him away from traditional old wizarding families. In fact, Fudge's prejudices are no different from those Ron was raised with. We have discussed this many times here - Rowling's 'good guys' are just as prejudiced as her villains in all aspects but one. Which could have still been made to work if it were acknowledged. After all, many of those who fought against the Nazis went back home to racially or ethnically segregated societies (whether by law or social custom) and it took the work of generations to improve that situation (and we aren't all the way through still, there is plenty of tribalism and xenophobia still around). But no, somehow if we just put the trio and Order veterans in charge all will be well because we are not supposed to notice the prejudices of the 'good guys'.
As long as Fudge is against Voldemort Albus remains on the same side with him. But he still started a private army during the first war and recruited Aurors, when the Ministry was against Voldemort, so I'm not sure Ministry-Albus cooperation was ever an option. The only way they can cooperate is if the Minister does as Albus tells hir.
Yes, Fudge is refusing to believe that Voldemort is back, but it isn't as if he was given any serious evidence. But now Severus shows him his Mark is back. Too bad Fudge (having spent the first war in the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes rather than in the DMLE) has no idea what this means. A great illustration of the downside of the compartmentalization of information. Does Fudge think Severus is part of Albus' conspiracy to take over the running of the Ministry?
Poor Harry! Because of Cedric's death he can't receive his prize in a proper ceremony!
It's Arthur's fondness of Muggles that held him back at the Ministry all these years - and kept him out in the shed while at home. Because Molly doesn't care for Muggles any more than Fudge does. (Fudge only became Minister a year before PS. What kept Arthur back before Fudge's appointment? I'll tell you what - he wasn't half as good at his job as Percy was at his.)
Bill gets sent to tell Arthur to contact potential supporters at the Ministry. This brings to the recruitment of Kingsley and Tonks. Maybe also Hestia Jones (Moody doesn't mention her when he shows Harry the Order photograph, but we don't know if she is at the Ministry, nor do we know if Moody simply didn't get around to showing her. She may have been somewhere in a corner with Mundungus and Arabella). Of course the greatest advantage of having the Weasleys' support is that they bring up the numbers all by themselves.
Minerva is sent to bring Hagrid and maybe also Olympe. Their mission will result in recruiting Grawp. Who will serve as a deus ex machina once. (OK, he also punches the 2 giants Voldemort manages to recruit.)
Poppy is sent to take care of Winky. Nice of Albus to remember her. But this is all because he doesn't want Poppy to see Sirius. Severus is horrified to see him - even if IMO he should have known Sirius was not the one who betrayed the Potters (all it would have taken was to PI his own wand after the dust settled the night Sirius escaped). But then, knowing Sirius' other history perhaps Severus was expecting Albus not to trust Sirius again. Of course Sirius isn't happy to see Severus among Albus' forces now that he received confirmation that indeed Severus was a DE.
Albus forces the two to shake hands and demands no open hostility. As if. Nice of Rowling to show that both of them were acting equally hostile to the other.
Sirius is sent to Remus and other members of the 'old crowd' - did Rowling only invent the term 'Order of the Phoenix' during the three year summer? Anyway, considering that much of the 'old crowd' was at the school that day (and I imagine Albus can contact his brother in Hogsmeade himself) the number of people Sirius was to alert is no more than 8 (and that includes Remus).
Sirius can't wait to go back to his dog form, that he ends up having to turn the door handle with his paw.
Severus' assignment is so secret Albus won't mention it in front of Harry (or anyone else present) despite the fact that soon enough both sides of the war will know he is reporting to both of them. (His real secret is his true loyalty - whom is he reporting to fully and truthfully?) I like the mention of unusual pallor and glittering eyes. This is not an easy moment for him. Hey, there's a 'trace of apprehension' on Albus' face for Severus! For the spy, not the person, of course.
How cruel of Molly to remind Harry of the money Cedric should have won at a time like this! Oh the horror! It is so bad Harry might risk crying in front of Ron, Hermione and Molly! Oh, thanks Hermione for making that banging noise to distract our hero from his emotions. Oops, that's not why she did it - she just captured Rita. Who must have entered the room through the window at some point. I can't find the moment the window was opened nor do we have any mention of a humming noise, so we don't know how long Rita was in the room and what she saw or overheard. But she certainly knows that wanted supposed criminal Sirius Black is being aided and abetted by Albus and that Albus is restarting his little extra-govenment militia to which he will recruit members of the government.
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no subject
Date: 2011-09-10 01:23 am (UTC)He doesn't fully know what it means, but he *would* at least recognize the Dark Mark as that thing that DE's displayed over the sites of attacks, and that one of Dumbledore's employees had it tattooed on his arm.
It's been pointed out before, I think by Sistermapie, that it's odd how in PS, people think it's Voldemort coming back anytime something strange happens (like the break-in at Gringotts), but by this point in the series, no one believes it when Dumbledore says he's back.
I think that that can be explained by recognizing Fudge's initial reaction here as just the standard denial that people go through when they hear bad news. When Dumbledore failed to present convincing evidence, though, I think that solidified his denial. That works to explain why Fudge doesn't believe Dumbledore even for a moment.
Albus forces the two to shake hands and demands no open hostility. As if. Nice of Rowling to show that both of them were acting equally hostile to the other.
Well, there's nothing wrong with expressing *righteous* anger, right?
Speaking of anger, this exchange caught my eye when I was looking at this chapter just today. This is the first thing that Fudge says in the scene:
Fudge came striding up the ward. Professors McGonagall and Snape were at his heels.
"Where's Dumbledore?" Fudge demanded of Mrs. Weasley.
"He's not here," said Mrs. Weasley angrily. "This is a hospital wing. Minister, don't you think you'd do better to -"
I know everyone's under a fair amount of pressure, here, but wow. The head of the government (not to mention her husband's employer) asks her a reasonable question, albeit probably fairly brusquely, and she responds like this? Fudge isn't being especially unreasonable here, either -- Dumbledore *told* Fudge that he'd be in the hospital wing if Fudge wanted to talk to him.
Apparently "striding" and "demanding" are pretty outrageous things? Or something?
Aggravating factors for disbelieving in Tom's return
Date: 2011-09-10 03:39 am (UTC)Which every educated witch and wizard KNOWS is impossible.
Harry Potter didn't just attest that the "banished, his powers broken" Lord Voldemort had tonight returned, his powers fully restored.
Cornelius would have powerful emotional reasons not to want to believe in such bad news. But to that emotional reason for denial, was then added a magical impossibility.
Harry testified that the DEAD Lord Voldemort had managed a "rebirth." (p 704, US paperback). And the page before, Dumbledore confirmed that "Voldemort has been restored to his body." (Emphasis mine.)
If nobody but Albus (and the brighter DE's) ever knew that the banished-broken-but-not-really-gone Voldemort had ever been deprived of his body, if no one but they knew that Tom had been killed but wasn't exactly dead, then this would all seem nonsense.
Dead is dead. That's a fundamental rule. No necromancy the Darkest wizards have ever tried, not Inferi, not ghosts, not Death's resurrection stone itself, can take someone who's truly been killed (for instance, by being hit by a rebounding AK) and meke hir truly live again.
Albus isn't just asking Cornelius to trust him/Harry that Voldemort has returned; he insists that Fudge credit that Voldemort has returned FROM THE DEAD.
Without any supporting evidence. At all.
Doubting Thomas, I'm in your camp here. Show me those holes!
Re: Aggravating factors for disbelieving in Tom's return
Date: 2011-09-10 08:02 am (UTC)Which would still leave Harry sounding kind of crazy, but more crazy like someone who had said, five years ago, that they'd seen bin Laden rise from dead. As opposed to someone who said the same thing now. You'd have your doubts about their overall sanity, but you'd still want to consider the possibility that they'd seen bin Laden. Particularly if they, uh, often happened to run into terrorists, or whatever. (Analogy breakdown!)
Secondly, if Voldemort had just been "banished, his powers broken," then what was he waiting for? It sure wasn't an airplane ticket or a bag of Floo powder.
Also, could you remind me where "powers broken" was from? In the Pensieve scene in GoF, I've got a "You planned to restore He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named to power," but that could be political power, in theory...
Gone, powers broken, versus dead
Date: 2011-09-10 02:28 pm (UTC)Minerva says to Albus, YKN has diappeared--I suppose he really is gone?
Then, telling Albus the Tale of Godric's Hollow as she's heard it, "They're saying he tired to kill the Potter's son, Haryy. But--he couldn't. He couldn't kill that little boy. No one knows why, or how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, Voldemort's power somehow broke--and that's why he's gone."
And then Hagrid's explanation of the whole debate in Chapter 4- "Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die. Some say he's still out there, bidin' his time, like, but I don' believe it. People who was on his side came back ter ours. Some of 'em came outta kinda trances. Don' reckon they could've done if he was comin' back.
"Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers. Too weak to carry on. 'Cause somethin' about you finished him, Harry...."
In GoF, the Pensieve trial of the Lestranges & Barty Jr. B. Sr. accused them of torturing Frank for knowledge "of the present whereabouts of your exiled master." in order to "restore HWMNBN to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while he was strong."
present whereabouts, exiled, while he was strong-- not how I'd talk about someone dead but who might return
Re: Gone, powers broken, versus dead
Date: 2011-09-11 07:07 pm (UTC)Re: Aggravating factors for disbelieving in Tom's return
Date: 2011-09-10 02:48 pm (UTC)"You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing... but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to think how quickly he will rise again..."
But now Albus tells him "Those people's deaths were mere by-products of a plan to restore Voldemort to full strength again. The plan succeeded. Voldemort has been restored to his body."
If this is the first time he hears a claim about Voldemort being actually bodiless for 13 years would he trust Albus?
Re: Aggravating factors for disbelieving in Tom's return
Date: 2011-09-10 08:06 pm (UTC)So, is there some way a wizard's consciousness (but not soul, probably - or maybe there's some sort of magical umbilical cord involved) can be temporarily separated from the body, maybe what we'd call an out-of-body experience? Something which Fudge would accept as not-dead, anyway. In that case, maybe you could put together a complicated scenario in which the curse didn't kill Voldemort because of his amazing powers, but temporarily expelled his consciousness from his body. Then Sirius, under Vapormort's orders, Apparated the body to some safe location and put it in some sort of stasis for preservation, went back to collect some supplies for reuniting Voldemort's soul and body, and got caught by Peter in the process. I don't find this satisfactory at all, though.
His loyal servant abandoning him in favor of a street brawl...
Date: 2011-09-11 03:37 am (UTC)And that crazy laughter, the mixture of guilt, satisfied blood-lust, and utter despair Sirius must have been feeling (assuming a Legilimens examined him), his indifference to his own capture, would fit a loyal servant unbalanced by his inability to aid his beloved master.
Besides, Voldemort wouldn't have needed an accomplice to hide or get away--just a Portkey which he's not quite too far gone to activate. Maybe to a warded hideaway which he's now trapped in, being too weak to lower the wards....
Re: His loyal servant abandoning him in favor of a street brawl...
Date: 2011-09-11 04:58 am (UTC)Someone must have let him out at some point, because he somehow got to Albania.
I was wondering about Albus' claimed 'sources', the ones that reported to him at some point that Tom was in Albania. Any chance they were actually Bertha Jorkins' relatives? Did she just go on a family visit or was she supposed to bring information?
Albania...
Date: 2011-09-11 05:36 am (UTC)Re: Albania...
Date: 2011-09-11 02:20 pm (UTC)Squib Voldemort?
Date: 2011-09-12 04:49 am (UTC)What does it mean, "Voldemort's powers were broken?"
I can think of two paths this could go along. One, think of the Elder Wand--suppose that you command it and its powers for a time. But then another witch/wisard vanquishes you; you'll never again command those enhanced powers; they belong now to your vanquisher.
If the WW in general believed that LV had made some bargain to obtain enhanced powers, then his defeat (by a baby!) removed those powers. Leaving him at best at normal wizarding power levels, nothing especially to worry about or write home about.
Only if he'd TRADED his normal powers for the enhanced ones. he'd be left with nothing. A Squib, perhape.
The other option is,...
I keep thinking about Merlin and Nimue.
And Dolores Umbridge's accusations in the Muggleborn Registration Commission.
It is canon that depression can make a witch/wizard temporarily lose [some of] hir magical power. We witness this directly with Tonks i HBP and infer it with Merope (and with Eileen Prince and her son).
And this phenomenon is presumably why Dementors are the Azkaban guards--the natural effect of their proximity suppresses magic among the inmates.
Can anything permanently strip magic from a user? Or--transfer it to another entity? Steal it?
The Merlin/Nimue myths--she's both his student and his lover, and in most versions she uses his own power to bind or entomb him. In some versions Nimue is left with both Merlin's position (as Arthur's advisor) and all his powers.
Both of which she's stripped from him.
If Nimue, Merlin's nemesis, has her own Chocolate Frog Card, we've never seen it.
But if people think THAT about Harry--that something about him PERMANENTLY stripped Voldemort's magic when Voldemort unwisely attacked Harry--
Well, then, a baby can, not even meaning to, permanently strip someone else's magic.
And do Dolores's Commission can be born. It's now plausible that a Muggleborn baby HERE stole hir powers from a newborn (or fetus) THERE.
All those inbred-Pureblood stillbirths and Squibs, now tidily explained.
Re: His loyal servant abandoning him in favor of a street brawl...
Date: 2011-09-11 10:21 pm (UTC)Re: His loyal servant abandoning him in favor of a street brawl...
Date: 2011-09-11 10:57 pm (UTC)Re: His loyal servant abandoning him in favor of a street brawl...
Date: 2011-09-11 11:51 pm (UTC)Crazy like someone who said five years ago...
Date: 2011-09-12 04:18 am (UTC)Re: Crazy like someone who said five years ago...
Date: 2011-09-12 05:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-10 11:49 am (UTC)It's the same kind of wound that Basil Fawlty had after being wounded by shrapnel in the Korean war. It hurts when it suits him, but when it doesn't he is able to run very fast. The acromantula venom is a magical substance so who knows what effect it might have? Perhaps it does come and go.
Egodore has a lock on all important information in the series and he expects everyone to take his word for things with no proof. Certainly this causes a lot of problems and in many instances plays right into Voldemort's hands.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-10 12:04 pm (UTC)... I'm forever going to imagine Harry getting out of uncomfortable legal situations by citing "my old Triwizard wound!" now. Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-11 08:19 pm (UTC)*snorts* Yeah, and when Fudge brought the dementor with him, Minerva was apparently just wringing her hands when the dementor Kissed Barty. How convenient.
/Albus' concealment of the existence of the Harrycrux came to bite him./
And he never learns from this. He never once thinks that maybe it might be a good idea to let people know about things that directly or indirectly concern them, even after the numerous instances of them getting hurt or killed because he did the opposite.
/Now Albus starts offering advice, ie orders - remove the dementors, contact the giants/
All of which amounts to nothing in later books.
/OTOH Albus doesn't say what to do with the dementors that are supposed to be relieved of their duty in Azkaban./
Neither does JKR, since apparently there’s no way to destroy dementors. So, are they just draining the souls out of various Muggles they come across while the wizarding world twiddles its thumbs?
/Because Molly doesn't care for Muggles any more than Fudge does./
And people wonder why the Twins bait Muggles. They learned it from somewhere, namely their mother’s attitude. Not to mention her inappropriate remarks about Muggles in King’s Cross.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-14 03:48 pm (UTC)Kind of amazing, isn't it? If she were to go around making racist comments in front of said minorities, fans would probably be horrified, but making cruel remarks about muggles while being in the middle of a place built by muggles, for muggles, and that wizards were actively mooching off of? Totally fine.
I have to say that this is one of the things that annoys me the most about hardcore HP fans. When discussing HP with a couple friends a few weeks ago I brought up the cruel imperialistic treatment of non-wizards and was immediately interrupted by cries of "No, it's only the bad wizards who discriminate! Harry and his friends are totally open, generous, non-prejudiced people." Riiiiiight.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-11 08:49 pm (UTC)Something else we can add to the list (http://deathtocapslock.livejournal.com/159192.html?thread=6476248#t6476248) of sublots that go nowhere.
----Suddenly Harry remembers the pain in his leg, that mysterious pain that never stops Harry when the plot needs him to act, but is at other times unbearable.
I actually find this somewhat realistic, as I've been reading and watching a lot about the 9/11 attacks for the last couple of days. Many of those who fled the towers were able to do so despite severe injuries. Your emotional state can really affect the amount of pain you're experiencing, and you're emotional estate can change moment by moment in a crisis.
----OTOH Albus doesn't say what to do with the dementors that are supposed to be relieved of their duty in Azkaban. So if Fudge had followed his advice would we have seen dementors breeding in the countryside since Harry's 5th year?
Good point. The dementors appear to be difficult to control and impossible to eliminate. I've wondered if maybe Azkaban island was originally established as a containment area for the dementors, and the wizards later decided to stash their prisoners there as well. It would make more sense to relocate the prisoners than to remove the dementors, I think.
----Actual brother wands must be rather rare.
Maybe. Would wands with hairs from the same unicorn or heartstrings from the same dragon count as brother wands, or is it something unique to phoenix feathers?
----OTOH, as far as Fudge knows, much hangs on the testimony of Harry, whom Albus forbids to question, and what people heard a crazy man say. And then this morning's article about Harry makes him appear almost as mad as Barty.
It seems like so many problems could have been solved if Fudge had been shown Harry's memories of the graveyard in a pensieve. I don't really understand what information Albus was trying to protect by keeping Fudge away from Harry.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-11 08:58 pm (UTC)Since heartstrings are fictional organs (of fictional animals in this case) I don't even know if a dragon has more than one heartstring. Maybe Ollivander does use more than one hair from each unicorn, but the chance the people owning those particular wands would face one another in a duel can't be that high. Apparently Sirius never saw or heard of such occurrence before.
Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 02:25 am (UTC)Yes, what information WAS Albus trying to protect by keeping Fudge away from Harry??? Conspiracy theorists, have at this one!
Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 01:50 pm (UTC)Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 03:40 pm (UTC)Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 03:53 pm (UTC)1) Voldemort was born under the name of Tom Marvolo Riddle, the son of a Muggle named Tom Riddle and a witch named Merope Gaunt, originally from Little Hangleton.
2) Albus met Tom at the orphanage when Tom was 11 and already there Albus learned of Tom's sadistic and Machiavelian nature.
3) Albus is the owner and master of the Elder Wand.
4) In 1943 it was Tom who unleashed a basilisk on Hogwarts' residents.
5) Tom has a collection of historically significant magical objects which he acquired through murders with which he framed others.
6) These objects include the Resurrection Stone, which together with Albus' wand and Harry's cloak complete the set of Deathly Hallows.
7) On two occasions Tom applied for a teaching position at Hogwarts.
8) It was Tom who cursed the DADA position when refused this job.
9) Sybil Trelawney made a prophecy about the impending birth of a potential vanquisher of Tom.
10) Part of this prophecy was leaked to Tom by Severus. The other part is known only to Albus (and an Unspeakable).
11) Severus turned his coat because Lily was endangered, he committed to protecting her.
12) After Lily's death Severus made a commitment to protect Harry.
13) It was Lily, not Harry, who defeated Tom at Godric's Hollow.
14) The above resulted in Harry becoming a Horcrux which anchors Tom to life.
15) This results in some mysterious mental connection between Tom and Harry.
16) Albus placed a special protection on 4PD, Harry's home in the Muggle world.
17) It was Peter, not Sirius, who betrayed the Potters (and restored Tom).
Feel free to add more.
Of these Tom reveals 1, 13 and 16 directly. Knowledge of 1 can lead anyone with awareness of events of 1943 to 4. Some digging around at Little Hangleton and reports from there either in DMLE records or maybe the Prophet should reveal at least part of 5. I'm not sure if anyone could make the connection to 6.
Knowledge of 13 may lead to 14 and 15 if one knows what Horcruxes are - especially in light of Rita's recent revelation about Harry's collapse in Divination.
Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 04:53 pm (UTC)19) Tom killed his Muggle family and framed his wizarding uncle while still at Hogwarts.
20) Albania has been Voldemort's go-to hiding place for over a decade, and Dumbledore has been monitoring the area.
Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-12 04:59 pm (UTC)I think listing the separate incidents in which he killed and framed people to get the artifacts is useful, anyway, because while the Marvolo incident could be discovered just by researching Tom's family, the Smith incident wouldn't be.
Re: Zing! $24,000 Question
Date: 2011-09-13 04:56 am (UTC)