deathtocapslock | GOF: 'epilogue' of sporkage - conclusions and open questions

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GOF: 'epilogue' of sporkage - conclusions and open questions

Here are some, I might add more at a later time, but feel free to add your own:

Albus:

If he knew Harry's death was necessary for victory over Tom (at least until he learned of the manner of Tom's re-incorporation), why did he save Harry several times already? And if he was trying to avoid Harry's death, why did he let Harry risk himself in the Tournament?

In the past I offered several theoretically possible explanations:

1) Albus indeed was trying to come up with an alternative plan and was sincerely saving Harry in hope that he can work it out. It so happened that Tom solved the problem for him.

2) Albus wanted Harry to make an informed choice to die. His plan was to protect Harry until he was of age, them present him with the facts and have Harry volunteer to die.

3) Albus believed that Harry's being a Horcrux protected him from most forms of death. Most of the time what Albus was protecting was the knowledge that such protection existed (if Harry survives a fall from an enormous height with no explicable mechanism would anyone start suspecting he was in fact the Horcrux that ensures Tom's eventual return?)

4) Albus (despite his protest in HBP) actually believed in the prophecy. Which meant Harry was only in danger from Tom himself (either must die at the hand of the other). He protected Harry in other situations (Quidditch games or from Barty) - either to make the prophecy come true or to disguise Harry's protection by fate, but encouraged Tom-Harry encounters.

5) Albus doesn't want Harry to die in Quidditch games or even at the hands of deranged teachers because as much as it would serve the goal of destroying Tom, it doesn't look too good. But letting Harry die while confronting Tom looks good on the front page of the Prophet, especially if Albus is on record making an effort to keep Harry safe.

Or some combination of the above.

How do these explanations look in light of GOF?

Well, I think #3 might not be correct based on magical theory. Horcruxes are hard to destroy, but does this apply to one formed accidentally? And with Harry probably being the only known accidental Horcrux, why would Albus be so certain of Harry's invulnerability?

There is some support to #2 with Albus' use of the Age Line - he is OK with 17 year olds participating in the Tournament, they are old enough to make such a choice - but not a younger student. But once Harry gets entered into the Tournament Albus supposedly worries a lot, but does nothing for Harry's safety - he neither advises him on the 'binding magical contract' (what is the minimum Harry needs to do to not be in breach?) nor does he arrange for Harry's safety during the tasks. Well, Charlie and his colleagues might have intervened had a dragon gotten out of hand (maybe), but in the other 2 tasks Harry and the other champions were out of sight for much of the time. Who would have saved Harry from being drowned by grindilows or eaten by spiders? Moreover by late May Albus knew Voldemort's goal was to kidnap Harry and feed him to his pet snake. And he knew someone at Hogwarts was Tom's accessory (whether willing or not). Yet Albus does nothing to prevent this from happening. In fact, he lets Harry enter a maze where he can not be seen (and lets 'Moody' handle the cup).

Of course any argument against #2 is also against #1. Albus hardly does anything to protect Harry when he knows a Voldieplot is in action.

Which leaves us with the last two options, the least flattering to Albus. He made a token effort to save Harry with his hiring of Moody and the Age Line, but once he felt he was covered, let Harry risk death, whether through the tasks or Tom's plot. After all, that's what was in store for him anyway.

OTOH I am OK with him not knowing who Tom's Hogwarts agent was - there are just so many possibilities. All it says is that the real and fake Moody distinction is meaningless. Anyone writing Moody can write him based on Barty's (public) portrayal of him and be sure the portrayal is in-character.

Tom:

We were not given any explanation why once he had an agent inside Hogwarts he stuck with a plan that only sent Harry to him at the end of the year.

There is some confusion about what aspect of his resurrection was his innovation and what was already known (and may have been used by previous Horcrux-makers?). Of course we don't know what happens when a Horcrux-owner 'dies' other than by his own AK rebounding on him when trying to kill someone protected by sacrificial magic. Did they lose their bodies too? Or were they not-as-bad-off as Tom? Also, just like his diary version, Tom thinks he should have remembered about sacrificial magic. It simply can't be unique to Lily. But what I find most curious is that he knows Harry is protected at 4PD by a protection Albus had set up. How?

Severus:

As his Dark Mark returns he knows the commitment he made around 1980 and restated in 1981 will require him to face danger and live from moment to moment on his wits.

His assigned mission is protecting Harry. We see him acting to protect anyone who might need it without knowing who that might be (chapter 25). Though he may not have reported this event to Albus (anything about it? some of it?). We also see him taking provocation by 'Moody' and being not-quite cooperative when Harry tells him about seeing the confused Crouch. Is that because it was Harry who brought the message, because of Harry's delivery or because of some personal issue with Crouch from the first war?

This is the book that reveals that Severus' plot-relevant past went beyond his school days and involved some time as a follower of Voldemort, and subsequently some time as Albus' wartime (and post-wartime) spy among the DEs. But the nature of his activity as a DE remains obscure. All we know is that nobody from either side ever says anything about it (aside from his reporting of the prophecy), even when, as in Igor's trial, there is incentive to say as much as possible.

Also, despite Harry's protestations, in this book we see indication that Severus is *not* permissive with the Slytherins.

Hermione:

This book marks her transition from someone who was often insensitive to the feelings of those around her (even Ron) to someone who would go to great lengths and lose any moral inhibitions to take revenge on those who wronged her and hers. This is also the beginning of her two-year campaign for the House-elves, a campaign triggered by false assumptions and carried on with little understanding of the actual condition of House elves. Too bad we never learned enough about how this species works to be able to come up with an informed opinion of what would be good moral treatment of them.

This book shows for the first time Hermione encountering negative treatment for her blood-status that went beyond name-calling (and came from someone who was not a Malfoy).

Peter:

Considering how badly his death scene in DH was written, what was the point of the silver hand or the supposed life-debt? And why did he go back to Tom anyway? His character arc is so contrived. Sadly so.

The First War:

This book is the first time we get anything approaching specifics about any aspect of the first war that wasn't related directly to the Godric's Hollow attack. In this book it was still somewhat believable that there was an intense conflict lasting years (though the tale of Crouch's meteoric rise already casts some doubt on this timeline. Also, this book raises the role of the ministry in the fighting. Though it isn't clear how clean the intentions of the leadership were. As for Albus and his supporters - here we learn they were an extra-governmental organization. Why did Albus form a separate force? Was that because of personal distrust of Crouch? Ideological differences? A disagreement on tactics? Something else entirely? Of course the more we learn about Albus in later books the less these differences appear.

The Triwizard Tournament:

Whose idea was it to revive the Tournamnet? And why at this timing? How long had the Ministry been preparing for it? None of these questions are answered.

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The lack of information on what Snape actually did for Voldemort besides deliver half a prophecy is just odd. Surely someone, sometime would have mentioned it if he were going to Muggle-baiting parties like the one at the World Cup, or acting as a hit man, or coming up with new horrible hexes and potions. But no, we hear zip. Either JKR forgot to invent a hugely important chunk of backstory, or he actually didn't do much of anything other than maybe heal some wounded confederates and lurk in corners on the off-chance he would hear something.

You know, I think Dumbledore and Voldemort must be Cylons. They Have A Plan^TM, but it makes no damn sense and seems to change from week to week. (Plus they both have an irritating habit of not staying as dead as they should.)

Either JKR forgot to invent a hugely important chunk of backstory, or he actually didn't do much of anything other than maybe heal some wounded confederates and lurk in corners on the off-chance he would hear something.

But I doubt that Voldemort would have thought so highly of Snape if all Snape did as a DE was lurk in corners and occasionally heal a fellow DE...

I tend to think Snape came into Voldie's fold with his portfolio of self-developed spells, potions, curses and hexes, and Voldie probably had Snape work on developing more just for DE use.

I also believe that it was Snape who taught Voldie how to fly without a broom, but that's just my own opinion, cuz I think Snape was a better wizard than Voldie! LOL

I don't think we have evidence for Severus being anywhere high in Voldie's regard before HBP. I think before the prophecy he was at most useful as Voldie's future agent at Hogwarts because he was a half-blood with no family ties to Tom's old schoolmates and had the academic credentials that would allow him to be hired as a teacher. With the prophecy he sealed his fate as Voldie's candidate for the DADA job because Severus knew Tom's weakness, so he had to be placed where the curse would get him.

He raised Tom's suspicions when he stayed at Hogwarts all the years, interfered with Quirrell, didn't harm Harry and arrived 2 hours late to Little Hangleton, but managed to talk his way out alive (though not necessarily unharmed). Tom started regarding him well only after the Ministry battle, when both Bella and Lucius failed, whereas Severus could claim to have succeeded in botching Harry's attempts at Occlumency, and to have delayed the warning to the Order as much as possible. Also to leading Sirius out of his hiding place and leading Emmeline Vance to her death.

I don't think we have evidence for Severus being anywhere high in Voldie's regard before HBP. I think before the prophecy he was at most useful as Voldie's future agent at Hogwarts because he was a half-blood with no family ties to Tom's old schoolmates and had the academic credentials that would allow him to be hired as a teacher.

But even that implies a certain level of respect and trust that Tom didn't show to many other DEs...

We know for a fact that no one in the OotP, not even Severus' enemies like Sirius and Remus, can state what exactly Severus did as a DE, and you know Sirius would have trumpeted Severus' crimes if he knew of them.

But more telling, seemingly most DEs have no idea what Severus did back then, nor at anytime, as a DE. Bellatrix taunts him that he did nothing and basically never did anything. She's Tom's lieutenant, and she has no idea what Severus' function in the organization is or was.

Obviously Severus didn't partake of general DE mayhem when he first joined, else Bellatrix (and probably Sirius and/or other Order members) would have known about it. So Tom seems to have taken a particular interest in Severus from the very beginning, and whatever he had Severus doing, kept it under wraps from other DEs...

Well, I don't know. Bellatrix wouldn't've been impressed if Severus had been the one to heal the DE's who went on missions and took risks, would she? That certainly fits in with her accusation, "No, you were once again absent while the rest of us ran dangers, were you not, Snape?"

A role like that wouldn't have been visible even to members of the Order, either.

That's what I was thinking. Voldemort might appreciate the usefulness of someone who healed a bunch of minions who otherwise might have died, but Bellatrix is all about the danger and grand gestures and wouldn't have seen it as good enough.

But even that implies a certain level of respect and trust that Tom didn't show to many other DEs...

I'm not sure recognizing that he finally found the round peg that might fit in a round hole counts as regard exactly.

But did he think highly of Snape back then? He sent Snape to Hogwarts to... probably spy and kill Dumbledore. Which is the mission he gave Draco in HBP, and we know he didn't think much of Draco. (He also sent Lucius to get Harry and the prophecy in OotP, and that must have been after he found out about the Diary's destruction, so even leading major missions isn't necessarily a sign of Voldemort's favor.) He also was not too happy with Snape after his return in GoF, I think, though at least he accepted that Snape was never Dumbledore's man. At that point, all we know that Voldemort knew was that Snape almost certainly did bring him part of a true prophecy (probably confirmed in Voldemort's mind when he had such trouble killing Harry) from the enemy camp, and then stayed on his Hogwarts mission at least for the spying part. So it might have only been after his return that Voldemort started raising his estimation of Snape, who could now actually report years of Dumbledore-info (instead of having to lurk in pubs for a few sentences). Before he might have been a moderately useful but low-ranking DE.

But did he think highly of Snape back then? He sent Snape to Hogwarts to... probably spy and kill Dumbledore. Which is the mission he gave Draco in HBP, and we know he didn't think much of Draco.

The major difference is that Draco was still student, and the son of a father whom Tom had trusted but who subsequently failed. Tom was seeking to humiliate and punish the Malfoys via their son.

Snape, OTOH, had already graduated from Hogwarts when he joined the DEs, and in the WW was considered an adult. Lucius Malfoy for whatever reason seems to have taken an early interest in Severus, and back circa 1977-78 Malfoy was Tom's righthand man. So Lucius would have had good things to say about Severus to Tom, and as I mentioned before, Sev arrived with a preexisting portfolio of self-invented/developed spells, potions, curses and hexes. There was no reason for Tom NOT to at least see the value of Severus' skills and abilities, if not value the young man himself.

So I think the mission he gave Severus to apply for a teaching job at Hogwarts was something that Tom at that time would have only given to someone he valued and trusted. Draco, as I mentioned, was still a student there, and his mission was primarily to humiliate and punish the Malfoys, with DD's death being a side benefit.

He also was not too happy with Snape after his return in GoF, I think, though at least he accepted that Snape was never Dumbledore's man.

Still, Tom seemed to utilize Severus as his righthand man after Lucius' imprisonment and disgrace.

Voldemort also sent Lucius on the propechy/Ministry mission after he knew Lucius had failed him with the Diary, and as far as we know Voldemort considered that an important mission, so I don't think we can take assignments as signs one way or another. Maybe he found Snape useful for inventing a few spells back in the day, but was annoyed that Snape was always "busy" doing "research" every time they had a Muggle-baiting party, and sending him to Hogwarts was an effort to force him into action. Sort of like how sending Lucius on the Ministry mission might have been a chance for him to redeem himself (which he blew).

Also, was Lucius his right hand then? I can't remember whether that was explicitly stated. Back then he had sane(-ish) Bellatrix and the other Lestranges, some of his older DEs, all the others who got killed or sent to Azkaban... Lucius might have been up there, but I had the impression that he was maybe 2nd or 3rd tier and became right-hand man after GoF pretty much by default (the other candidates were dead or not busted out of Azkaban yet, and the Azkaban ones were none too stable once they got out anyway). Even then Voldemort calls him "my slippery friend," so even being right-hand-man doesn't seem like a sign that he particularly trusts someone. He just doesn't have a lot of options.

Then after Lucius got arrested, how many not-crazy, competent DEs were left for the right-hand-man spot? And by this point Snape is well placed. So again it might have been that sure, Voldemort thought he was useful, but the promotion was also because he was the only viable candidate.

Snape, OTOH, had already graduated from Hogwarts when he joined the DEs, and in the WW was considered an adult. Lucius Malfoy for whatever reason seems to have taken an early interest in Severus, and back circa 1977-78 Malfoy was Tom's righthand man.

How much of this can be inferred directly from book canon, how much interview (and similar, such as Pottermore) and how much fanon? The dynamics at the cemetery suggest that Lucius was the highest ranking DE of those gathered there (the way he feels emboldened to speak, and indeed gets away with it without immediate and public punishment, as opposed to Avery). But if any of the imprisoned or dead DEs outranked him then he may have not risen to 'righthand man' position until very late in the first war. Take for instance Dolohov - following Tom since as early as his return from travels, known for a penchant for torture and master of that very damaging purple spell. If he was the original righthand man then Lucius only rose to that position after Dolohov was imprisoned, sometime in the last three months of the war.

Oh, but I do like the idea of Snape inventing the flying spell :D

If he did invent any spells for the DEs, another candidate might be that purple slashing spell that had Hermione taking 10 potions a day in OotP. Which would have been useful and kind of neat (from a DE perspective), but not a crucial addition since they already have plenty of spells to hurt and kill.

Oh, but I do like the idea of Snape inventing the flying spell :D

Did he invent it...or discover it was possible from Lily, if we interpret what she was doing the day they first met as "flying" rather than just "floating"?

I've written a drabble illustrating my theory, which can be found here:http://majorjune.livejournal.com/10374.html

Which would have been useful and kind of neat (from a DE perspective), but not a crucial addition since they already have plenty of spells to hurt and kill.

I think Tom was vain enough to want his enemies thinking HE was coming up with unique new spells/curses/hexes, hence the reason he took Severus under his wing almost as soon as Sev joined up...he wanted to milk Sev's abilities and take credit for them.

3) Albus believed that Harry's being a Horcrux protected him from most forms of death. Most of the time what Albus was protecting was the knowledge that such protection existed (if Harry survives a fall from an enormous height with no explicable mechanism would anyone start suspecting he was in fact the Horcrux that ensures Tom's eventual return?)

This reminds me of the recent Torchwood -- Miracle Day TV show...suddenly no one can die. But they can be severely messed up if run over by a car, shot thru the heart, blown to pieces in an explosion, etc.

So even if DD believed that Harry was a horcrux, and in being a horcrux was protected from "most forms of death", it seems to me if Harry got caught in a burning building and couldn't escape, or if someone tied a cement block around his neck and threw him off the side of a boat, or stuck a poker thru his eye, poor Harry would have been severely messed up, if not technically dead. ;-)

In those circumstances perhaps Harry's 'life force' would have been gone, but the remaining 'husk' would have contained the Voldie soul bit?

Look no further....

http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/36182.html

Another example of this is in Notwolf's WIP, The Voldemort Diaries, which takes place early in the 21st century. Snape discovers a secret cache of diaries Voldemort had hidden and starts reading them. Then he begins acting very strangely...And he's not the only one.

www.fanfiction.net/u/1389018/notwolf

Warning: This is the continuation of an epic that runs several thousand pages. While it can be read as a stand-alone novel, I strongly recommend reading the previous books first. In order, they are:

1) The Beginnings of a Death Eater
2) I, Too, Shall Follow
3) Death Eater No More
4) The Voldemort Diaries

There are also several excellent short stories about the same characters.

One other warning: Notwolf is the kind of author we wanted JKR to be. In fact, she's far better than most professional writers. Her characters are all vividly drawn, fascinating individuals, even the minor ones, and her plots are interesting and unpredictable. If you think canon sucks now, you'll really be disappointed by it after reading Notwolf's magnificent saga. My thanks forever go to marionros for recommending DENM on Snapedom some time ago.

We were not given any explanation why once he had an agent inside Hogwarts he stuck with a plan that only sent Harry to him at the end of the year.

I'd assumed the delay was needed to prepare the potion that gave Voldemort his body back. Also, kidnapping/killing Harry from within the Third Task would make it easier to make his death look like an accident. For that, however, they would need to return his body to the maze rather than feed it to Nagini.

My own opinion of Snape/Lucius/Voldemort is that Lucius took a notice of young Snape and he was the one who helped either recruit or bring to the attention of Voldemort potential future Death Eaters.

Not exactly canon but one has to wonder with the age difference why Lucius would seem so friendly to Severus or how they got to be 'old friends'. This is how Narcissa describes the relationship. Which to me seems an odd description in some way. Severus would have been a first year while Lucius was a 6th or 7th.

I seem to remember Ron finding first years at that point pretty damn annoying. So what made Lucius want to be friends with such a young kid? My bet is that Lucius was already by 6th or 7th year planning on being a DE. We have Lily fussing at Severus in 5th year accusing him and his friends of not being able to wait to be a DE. So...I'm gonna assume that Lucius being out of school by Severus 5th year was a DE.

Backing up, being that Lucius was in 6th or 7th when Severus first arrived Lucius could have easily been someone in the early death eater folds who wasn't a full fledged DE but would have possibly been actively recruity or wooing younger students.

One might even assume that even after Lucius left Hogwarts he kept his connections with former students in an attempt to keep them on the path.

Plus we know Voldemort isn't above giving students the dark mark as we see Draco has in 6th year. So there isn't anything to say Lucius couldn't have already been very close to being a DE even while still at school. And while still there his missions or directions could have included finding talented boys who he could woo into the DE ranks.

If Lucius saw potential in first year Severus, it's not hard to see how Severus would have ended up in the DE ranks. Having no friends, people not liking you and then bam, you have this older boy befriending you and supporting you. It's not hard to see how Severus head could have been easily turned. Especially if he was a boy starved for approval and affection. We see Lucius pat first year Severus on the back, a boy JKR took time to describe as a little boy who wasn't one that automatically drew the affection of others.

I think by the time Severus was ready to be a DE, Voldemort knew enough about him from the others like Lucius, Mulciber, Rosier...etc. Voldie probably got a sense of who Severus was from the other boys and people who became DE. And one does have to assume that Voldie didn't just let anyone into the DE ranks who wanted to be a DE. I believe he had to be selective of who he chose to get a dark mark and who he let close to him. Severus more than likely would have been vetted before he was even allowed to meet with Voldie, etc.

I seem to remember Ron finding first years at that point pretty damn annoying.

Yes, but Ron is far from how I'd expect a prefect, ie a student-leader, to be. A better comparison would be Percy, who included the newcomer Muggle-born Hermione in conversation at the welcoming feast.

My bet is that Lucius was already by 6th or 7th year planning on being a DE.

Maybe. If he even knew what a DE was. It's September 1971, the war barely started. We don't know if Abraxas was close to Tom's age. If he was just a few years older he may have never known Tom or only knew him as that orphan kid. OTOH if Lucius was already dating Narcissa maybe he heard something from Bellatrix. Or maybe one of Lucius' classmates was a son of Tom's original friends. So I'm not saying your scenario isn't possible, just not obvious.

I don't know, most older kids find younger kids annoying. It's a rare few 17 year olds who want to put up with 11 year olds for an extended period, just saying. I just saw JKR's show of having Lucius pat younger Severus on the back a hint at more than just a friendly dude greeting a new kid. I saw it as an implication of the future connection. Thats my take on it.

And maybe it's not obvious, as I said at the beginning it was mostly my opinion I was stating and nobody has to take that as fact thats just how I read it. And I can't remember when the first war started so I'm not all 100% sure how intense or unintense it was back in 1971.

I can't even remember right now when that supposed meeting between Dumbledore and Tom took place when Tom returned to get the DADA job. I'm making the assumption that whenever that was, when Tom left that night having been denied by DD, that was basicly when Voldie decided to start his 'war'.

Rowling's timeline is mucked up badly on this, but the meeting may have been as many as 13-14 years before the war officially started, yet Tom already had a group that was known as 'Death Eaters'. What they were doing all these years is a mystery. (Based on Scott Atran's research on Islamist terrorists, they may have played Quidditch most of the time. What terrorists really like to do is play sports and engage in other forms of male bonding together.) In 1970 Minerva and Hagrid already used the epithet 'You Know Who', and we have Molly's claim that her and Arthur's elopement around 1970 was because of the war - but OTOH in 1978 Regulus didn't seem to expect to be killing anyone, and Crouch Sr's War on Terror was a new thing around 1980.

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GOF: 'epilogue' of sporkage - conclusions and open questions

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