OOTP Chapter Thirty-Five: "Beyond the Veil"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* I’m surprised Lucius doesn’t just use Accio Prophecy. It would be quicker than just standing there saying “Give it to me, Potter.”

* “If Sirius really was not here, he had led his friends to their deaths for no reason at all…” Well done, Potter, you got there in the end. Really, though, you should have listened to Hermione. She was against this whole idea from the beginning. You see, this is what happens when you start thinking for yourself.

* Now that I mention it, I don’t think Harry really does much planning in Books Six and Seven, does he? Maybe he was just so traumatised by the failure of this adventure that he resolved to let Hermione and Dumbledore do all the thinking from now on.

* Bella seems impressed that Harry knows how to cast a Shield Charm, although it seems like one of the basic spells you’d want everybody to know. Maybe this is a sign of how bad DADA teaching is in Hogwarts.

* So Bella doesn’t know that Voldemort is a halfblood? Interesting. Surely a rich pureblood family like hers would have plenty of genealogical tables where she could check the pedigree of any wizarding family. Since there would be no Tom Riddle there, she must know he couldn’t be pureblood. Or does Voldemort not tell anybody his real name and identity? In which case I assume all his original followers (those who were with him when he still used his real name) haven’t told anybody. Or maybe he killed them to stop them telling.

* Of course, all this might have been avoided if Dumbledore just told people what Voldie’s real name is. It’s hard to imagine pureblood fanatics like Bella agreeing to serve a bastard halfblood like Tom.

* So Bella is considerably more violent than Lucius, wanting to attack Harry even when doing so would reduce their chances of success. I suppose this is partly due to fourteen years spent in Azkaban. Perhaps wizarding society might want to rethink their policy of sending people to a prison which turns them criminally insane.

* I assume there’s a way of listening to the prophecies without smashing them on the ground, because implementing a system whereby you can only hear them once seems a bit silly.

* “‘Dumbledore never told you?’ Malfoy repeated. ‘Well, this explains why you didn’t come earlier, Potter, the Dark Lord wondered why… you didn’t come running when he showed you the place where it was hidden in your dreams. He thought natural curiosity would make you want to hear the exact wording…’” Now, really, Voldemort, I can’t see why you thought this would be a good idea. Your entire plan essentially depends on Harry acting like an idiot, an—oh, wait, never mind.

* The Prophecy security system seems a bit silly, TBH, since it means that nobody can check what they say. Surely being able to find how to defeat Voldemort would be of great use to the Ministry?

* Voldemort going into the MOM would alert everybody to his presence, says Bella. A group of his known followers entering whilst wearing their Death Eater uniforms and breaking into a top-secret government department, on the other hand, is a perfectly normal and unremarkable thing to happen.

* “But the Dark Lord knows you are not unintelligent.” Normally I’d wonder why Voldemort would think something which is so manifestly untrue, but knowing how low Voldemort himself has set the bar…

* Harry’s side the first to use actual violence, as opposed to merely threatening. Just thought I’d point this out.

* If the DEs use each others’ real names, what exactly is the point of the masks? Surely they’d just impair your peripheral vision and make it harder to fight.

* It seems that Voldemort’s élite Death Eaters don’t know how to cast non-verbal spells, then. Or do they not exist yet?

* Neville’s stray Stupefy hits a “glass-fronted cabinet on the wall full of variously shaped hour-glasses”. I take it this is supposed to be the destruction of the Time Turners? (Although I’m not sure what idiot government would put them all in one place like this. Also, are we really expected to believe that nobody knows how to make any new ones? Or that there are no Time Turners in other countries which the Ministry could borrow?)

* Why use Impedimenta on the children? Sure it’ll knock them back, but there’s nothing to stop them from getting up and throwing some spells back at you. Especially if having cast it you just stand there and yell “We’ve got them! We’ve got them!” instead of going in to finish them off. If you want to stand around and shout, it would be better to use something which disables them completely, like Stupefy or Petrificus Totalus.

* Oh, wait, I take back what I said about non-verbal spells – Hermione does Silencio on one of the DEs, who then slashes his wand through the air and knocks Hermione out. So clearly at some of them can do non-verbals; oddly, though, he was shouting out his spells a minute ago. Maybe he’s good enough to cast non-verbal spells, but still finds doing magic verbally to be easier. (How common is the ability to do non-verbals in the WW? Would most good wizards be able to cast non-verbally just as good as if they spoke, or is being able to do them at all a mark of skill?)

* I sort of wish JKR wouldn’t write Nosebleed!Neville’s speech out phonetically (“Don’d gib id to him!”). It kind of gets annoying after a while. (And this goes for any other person with speech impediments, too. Remember, Rowling, less is more with this sort of thing.)

* Sirius dies! What a tragedy! Now I feel that I have gained a deep and important insight into the irreversibility of death! Oh, if only there were some way for the dead to come back and talk to the living – say, as ghosts, or sentient portraits, or shades conjured up a magical stone. If only…

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Non-verbal spells - we saw James and Severus exchange non-verbal spells in SWM. Previously we saw instances where it wasn't clear if the spell was non-verbal or we simply weren't told the incantation (just shown the effects). Much of it was in PS, but even later - for instance, I think it was in GOF that Trelawney changed the brightness of the illumination in class and no incantation was given.

In HBP 3 NEWT subjects require non-verbal casting. But not all wizards stay for NEWT level, and I suppose not all those who stay pass.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Another comment on non-verbal spells--Severus says (in the first DADA class) that not everyone CAN cast them.

"Yes, those who progress [note verb] to using magic without shouting incantations gain an element of surprise in their spell-casting. Not all wizards can do this, of course; it is a question of concentration and mind power which some"--his gaze lingered maliciously upon Harry once more--"lack."

If it requires more "concentration" and "mind power" to cast the same spell non-verbally than verbally, that would be a reason NOT to use non-verbal spells in combat except where one needed the specific advantages afforded. Or, of course, had been silenced.

[corycides.livejournal.com]

I always thought Sirius death was ridiculous portentous, particularly in conjunction with his Animagus form being mistaken for a Grim and him being a Black. Then he was just dead.

I mean, he might as well have just fallen over and hit his head. It wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever to the plot.

Plus, what is the point of that stupid veil? I am assuming it was created at some point and for some purpose, but it is basically a rather tidy way of killing someone. Did some witch just magic up a hole between life and death so she wouldn't have to scrub bloodstains off the floor?

(You know, I bet people that worked there chucked all their rubbish in. It's probably where they had their smoke breaks so they didn't have to go all the way outside. Just blew the smoke through the veil. It wasn't always black, that's just years of nicotine.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

The Prophecy security system seems a bit silly, TBH, since it means that nobody can check what they say. Surely being able to find how to defeat Voldemort would be of great use to the Ministry?

Not really. The prophecies are just trouble. Even if they come to pass they can only be interpreted after the fact. Had Harry (or anyone relevant) understood Trelawney's second prophecy when it was made they'd have thought it was about Sirius. (I'm not quite sure the first one was properly fulfilled, since neither Tom nor Harry died at the other's hand.) So the right thing to do is to suppress them.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Now that I mention it, I don’t think Harry really does much planning in Books Six and Seven, does he? Maybe he was just so traumatised by the failure of this adventure that he resolved to let Hermione and Dumbledore do all the thinking from now on./

Not entirely true, he does plan to stalk Draco in sixth year, against the advice of Ron and Hermione.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Maybe he was just so traumatised by the failure of this adventure that he resolved to let Hermione and Dumbledore do all the thinking from now on.

He does some thinking for himself in DH, when he realizes Dumbledore was just exploiting and manipulating him all those years. Unfortunately, Hermione promptly squelches that scary autonomy.

“But the Dark Lord knows you are not unintelligent.” Normally I’d wonder why Voldemort would think something which is so manifestly untrue, but knowing how low Voldemort himself has set the bar…

I always figured that was just base flattery. That's one of the ways you can tell who the bad guys are, you know. Good guys only give honest compliments, like, "OMG, Potter! That's the best flying I've seen in a generation!"

If the DEs use each others’ real names, what exactly is the point of the masks?

That's probably to show the DEs are just as dumb as the DAs. They can't be allowed to outclass the good guys in any way.

are we really expected to believe that nobody knows how to make any new ones? Or that there are no Time Turners in other countries which the Ministry could borrow?)

I always thought it was really stupid of Rowling to assert there were no more TTs in the world. Am I really supposed to believe nobody else on the face of the Earth has figured out that technology? Or that there aren't any on the black market? If there are nukes in several countries on the black market, there has to be just about everything else. I think JKR has confused the intellect of her readers with that of her characters.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Re the point of wearing masks: Maybe the masks are only opaque from the outside, and are clear from the inside. It's a cool idea, anyway.

Calling out names is still stupid, but maybe Lucius only did it because he's inexperienced with actual field missions. That, or he doesn't see any reason to hide identities from Harry and his friends, specifically.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

I’m surprised Lucius doesn’t just use Accio Prophecy. It would be quicker than just standing there saying “Give it to me, Potter.”
Just one little fleck of the shitstorm of idiocy which started in OotP and really hit the fan in HBP. In general, I liked OotP because a lot of it could have gone towards an interesting direction - especially what I thought of - at the time - as the "Slytherinization" of the Gryffs. You know: only caring for their own, abiding by prejudice towards others, applying different criteria etc... Ah, sweet innocence! But I remember to puzzle really hard in order to find out what exactly was behind this whole idea of the (second) bestest wizard of all times not daring to get inside the ministry when a bunch of his own DE, let alone 6 average children could hop about an nobody even noticed.

* So Bella doesn’t know that Voldemort is a halfblood?
One might fanwank this to be due to willful blindness. After all, nobody could have kidded themselves in thinking Hitler had been eligible for the SS according to his own standards and still the Nazis didn't have a problem with it.

* I assume there’s a way of listening to the prophecies without smashing them on the ground, because implementing a system whereby you can only hear them once seems a bit silly.
I always assumed it worked like looking at a memory in a pensieve. IIRC, the swirling mist inside the glass globes and that inside the memory flasks looked similar. Or is that movie contamination?

He thought natural curiosity would make you want to hear the exact wording…’”
Ahahaha! You are talking about the boy whose natural curiosity doesn't extend to either the names of his classmates or - assuming he was so consumed with his mission in life - to the actual question of how Horcruces can be a) identified and b) destroyed when his great and trusted mentor told him of what paramount importance the identification and destruction of said Horcruces was.
In fact, Harry's apathic idiocy seems like a genius move on Dumbledore's part here - he's kept his paragon so stupid he can't even be lured by the most natural things in the word. (MaybeVoldieshouldhaveshownhimDracowalkingtheministryhalls?)

* If the DEs use each others’ real names, what exactly is the point of the masks? Surely they’d just impair your peripheral vision and make it harder to fight.
Well, these are all adults, so they wouldn't be wearing any Slytherin ties. How on earth do you think we could have known who the baddies were, then?

* Why use Impedimenta on the children?
Don't remind me. Just like the rest of the series: the DE are SO evil and unscrupulous - except when them acting as such, they'd put an end to Harry et al. in thirty seconds flat.