HBP Chapter Twenty-Six: "The Cave"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* I don’t know why, but whenever I read this chapter’s title it makes me think of My Immortal. “Harry was expecting Dumbledore to take him to the 3 bromsticks, but instead they went into………… DA CAVE!!!!!!!”

* Tom must have had some pretty awesome wizarding skills to magically get himself and two other people down the cliff at age ten. Harry, naturally, can’t do this after his sixth year at wizarding school, and has to climb down the muggle way.

* Wait, so how can you tell that a place has “known magic”? I don’t think we’ve been given any indication before that you can sense where a magical enchantment has been cast. Maybe it’s just a super special power that only Dumbledore has.

* So Harry and Dumbledore swim through the water to enter the cavern. For some reason this fact strikes me as rather Freudian.

* Dumbles works out where the concealed entrance is by running his hands along the cave walls, which again is something we’ve never seen before. What is this skill? And why isn’t it taught at Hogwarts? Maybe Dumbledore’s just been slipping curiosity-reducing potion into the Hogwarts pumpkin juice for the last x number of years, and doesn’t teach people how to recognise magic in order to reduce his chances of being found out. Naturally now that Voldemort’s come back the Headmaster needs to keep people even more docile than usual to stop them questioning his war strategy, so he’s been upping the dose over the past two years. That explains why nobody really cares about the attempted murders, and why Ron and Hermione don’t want to investigate the Draco mystery. (Harry does because his deep and enduring love for Draco is even stronger than the curiosity-killing potion.)

* “‘Harry, I’m sorry, I forgot,’ [Dumbledore] said.” Yeah, well done Professor, forgetting that your favourite pupil and the only hope of the wizarding world is catching hypothermia right next to you. What was that you said last chapter about caring for the safety of your students?

* “Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury.” Yeah, but if you’re going to have to fight off a horde of inferi, being physically injured isn’t that good a situation to be in.

* That said, a little bit of blood wouldn’t hurt you that much, especially not since you could magically heal yourself immediately afterwards. Why not make it a really big payment, like having to kill somebody to get in? That way no good guy could ever get to your Horcrux, because they’d all be too noble (alright, alright, stop laughing) to do so.

* I’m not sure why Dumbledore thinks that trying out a spell which is bound to fail and alerts whatever’s guarding the Horcrux to your presence is “a very good idea”, but oh well.

* “‘Magic always leaves traces,’ said Dumbledore.” Not that you need to know what these traces are, Harry, or how to recognise them, even though you’ll be spending most of next year hunting for a series of hidden magical objects, and being able to tell where somebody’s cast a spell would be very helpful for that sort of thing.

* Dumbles said that weight won’t be an issue when crossing, because Voldie would care more about magical power, and bewitch the boat to only take one wizard at a time. Erm… if you say so, Dumbledore. I mean, sure, maybe he has done that; then again, maybe he hasn’t, or maybe he has, but in such a way that the boat will still capsize if it’s overloaded. You’re taking an awful risk based on a guess about a boat you just discovered thirty seconds ago, aren’t you?

* Speaking of wild guesses: “I do not think you will count, Harry: you are underage and unqualified.” Gosh, how convenient that Voldemort tied his super security system to the government’s statutes about when you can and can’t perform magic unsupervised.

* “Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake… age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimated youth,” says the man whom even death can’t prevent from manipulating his teenage protégé.

* The corpses floating in the lake are pretty cool, but seem suspiciously similar to the Dead Marshes from The Lord of the Rings.

* I’m not sure why wizards would view death as this great unknown mystery, when their world is full of ghosts, sentient portraits of dead people, and a stone able to summon back spirits from the afterlife.

* Yes, Voldemort, guard your precious soul-fragment with creatures which can be defeated by a basic fire-making spell! That’ll work as a security arrangement.

* So OK, Dumbles, maybe Voldemort wouldn’t want to immediately kill somebody who tried to drink the potion, but again, you’re taking a big risk based on nothing more than speculation and guesswork.

* It would kind of serve Dumbledore right if it turned out that the potion was in fact a poison which takes immediate effect, and he keeled over and died as soon as the first drop touched his lips.

* Wait, so if Voldemort would want to question anybody who gets this far, why didn’t he set up some kind of alarm system to go off when somebody tampers with the potion? He clearly doesn’t check his Horcruxes regularly, so anybody who did get this far would probably be incapacitated and die slowly anyway, in which case why not just fill the basin with poison to be on the safe side?

* Also, why does Dumbledore not try just pouring the potion on the ground, or even using the goblet to scoop out the Horcrux? Or does the Gryffindor code say that only recklessly brave ideas can be considered?

* So Harry tries to get Dumbledore some water, and accidentally ends up raising a whole lake full of zombies against them. Oops. Hey Potter, why didn’t you try conjuring water straight into Dumbledore’s mouth? Sheesh.

* Dumbledore says it’s “quite understandable” that Harry panicked and forgot to use fire. He’s right, of course, but he’s also highlighting how woefully unprepared Harry is for finding Horcruxes. You’d want to train him up almost like you train soldiers, so that when things start getting hairy he can keep his cool and take appropriate measures almost without thinking about it. Sending Harry as he is now to go after Horcruxes is like dragging somebody from high school, putting a gun in their hands and drafting them into a special ops unit without any basic training.

* “‘I am not worried, Harry,’ said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. ‘I am with you.’” Even though Harry just panicked in the face of an Inferi attack and Dumbledore had to save the day. What a toady that man is.

Comments

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Um.

Corollary.

(Proceeds with caution over quicksand....)

Most of the night is SCRIPTED. Albus expected the cave, the Inferi, the Birdbath of Doom, the potion.....

Did he deliberately arrange to let Rosmerta see him, knowing that his absence for the evening would be the signal for Draco to try his whatever-it-was cunning plan? Please note, there was absolutely NO NEED for Harry and Albus ever to enter Hogsmeade proper; as soon as they were outside the Hogwarts gates, Albus could have Apparated. Albus took Harry past the Three Broomsticks--if Rosmerta hadn't been on the street sending off an unruly patron, would he have arranged to make sure he and Harry paused just outside the windows to confer? Or told Harry he needed to step inside for a quick one, to firm up his alibi for being absent from the school?

Katie Bell had received the opal necklace in the 3B; Slughorn's poisoned mead had come from there; that Rosmerta was, or at least might be, Draco's accomplice wasn't a far-fetched inference.

Albus expected Draco to try something. And he fully intended in the end to suicide-by-Severus. And he expected to come back from the Birdbath of Doom with that potion in his system.

When they landed on the Astronomy Tower, he sent Harry to find Severus Snape--under his invisibility cloak, speaking to no one else..... And he explicitly sent Harry to "go and wake" Snape in his quarters. When we know that, despite the lateness of the hour, Snape was waiting in his office... for some summons? Which in the event came from Filius, warning that Death Eaters had broken into Hogwarts castle.

(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)

The Order had been warned and was patrolling. Except Snape, who was waiting in his office--where he could be quickly found in an emergency. And Dumbledore told Harry that Snape was sleeping, and sent the kid down to the dungeons to wake him. (And Harry is expected to know where the head of Slytherin sleeps? Albus, what Snarry-chan have you been reading?)

What would have happened that night had it not been for Draco's (apparently utterly unexpected) access of competence?

Oh, BTW, what does Twinkles claim heals the soul? Remorse. Like, you know, what seemed to be induced by that birdbath-potion.

I think Dumbles expected Harry to drag his (dying) carcass back to the castle. And then said carcass would send the boy off on a wild-Snape-chase. While privily summoning Snape to his side, to administer the, as it were, last rites. Which would, in fact, put Snape in a MUCH better position vis-a-vis the Death Eaters--he could have had a memory to show Tom of killing Albus, while being publicly untarnished and still accepted by the Order and the Ministry. That way, Tom could still have installed Snape as Headmaster even had not Wizarding Britain collapsed utterly before September... as canon went, Severus was worthless, a hunted criminal, until the Ministry fell.

And best of all, Albus would die with his own soul fresh-shrived, and BOTH of his favorite pawns tortured by self-blame over Albie's death.

What's not to like in that scenario?

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I’ve just been discussing the Remorse Potion with Nightfall Rising (aka Potionpen) in an exchange of private messages on ff-dot-net. N.R.’s view is that once Albus drank the potion he was doomed no matter what happened, because there was no way he could have made sufficient amends for his many crimes before the artificially-induced remorse killed him. I think the Remorse Potion didn’t “take” properly, since even in the afterlife it was clear that Dumbles never repented of his wicked ways. He continued to manipulate Harry shamelessly, and his condescension toward Severus was just plain revolting.

On the other hand, if Severus had had to drink from the Birdbath of Doom, I suspect it would have had no effect on him at all. By Book Six he is already full to the eyeballs with remorse. That’s why he’s by far the most principled character in canon: he’s earned it the hard way.

Regarding Sev’s athletic stair-climb: maybe he’d already developed his flying skills.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Hm, interesting point RE the potion and Albus in the afterlife (if that was indeed Albus and not some externalized projection of Harry's own). It makes me rather wonder if it's not something like Amortentia - able to induce an artificial state bearing certain similarities with the real deal, but unable to actually force it.

At best, the remorse potion might put one in a state conducive to realizing one's wrongs and so to the inner development of true remorse, but if that doesn't happen the subject will, at most, experience the remorse analogue to Amortentia's 'love' obssessiveness.

WORD on Severus earning it the hard way. He's one of the very few canon characters (maybe the only one?) who has actually done the work.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

That’s one of the reasons I consider Severus the true protagonist of the saga. The protagonist of a story is the one who undergoes transformation, and Severus is almost the only one who actually grows up. From the playground in Cokeworth to the floor of the Shrieking Shack, he is put through an absolute wringer of moral growth. And the response of Dumbledore, JKR’s stand-in for God the Father, is a sad shake of the head and “Poor Severus.”

Neville is the other one who grows up, but he doesn’t have as far to go, and he doesn’t experience moral growth. He doesn’t need to. He’s already highly principled in Book One. He always knows the right thing to do; he just needs to develop the ability to put it into effect. I have often said that Remus Lupin, for one, needs to take lessons in moral courage from eleven-year-old Neville Longbottom.

Harry has a chance to start growing up in Book Five, when he learns the truth about his bullying father and godfather, but he goes nowhere with it. The main difference between Harry at eleven and Harry at seventeen is an increase in self-importance. He’s young enough that the Remorse Potions might have helped him, though I think he would have needed repeated doses so he wouldn’t forget. And lots of instruction from Severus to understand what he was feeling, and the consequences of ignoring it.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)"

Huh, maybe that infamous greasy hair wasn't actually grease at all, but sweat from all the constant extreme workouts he was doing.


More broadly, your theory on how Dumbledore orchestrated his death makes a good deal of sense. I might end up adopting it for my own personal head-cannon.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

I can just see him doing jumping jacks in his office. Or running around the grounds in a lime-green Slytherin tracksuit and (pointed) woolly hat

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Lime-green? No, that's not classy enough for Slytherin. I think of it as a medium-dark leaf green. For an example see my drawing "John Wellington Snape" on DeviantArt.

http: // janach (dot) deviantart (dot) com/gallery/#/art/John-Wellington-Snape-171845410?_sid=583c9372

and

http: // janach (dot) deviantart (dot) com/gallery/#/art/Transfiguration-Skills-174049906?_sid=21c354e6

[oryx_leucoryx]

You know, that also answers why Twinkles never found the diadem that was sitting under his very nose, in a room on the same floor where his own office was located. That cave was so captivating, there was so much to research there, he just couldn't be bothered to look through the school, despite the fact that logically it had to be on Tom's list of places to mark as his own by planting a Horcrux in them.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Well, you're probably correct, but just to be fair, don't you think the Room of Hidden Things is probably hidden most especially from the Headmaster? In other words, I'm not sure it would ever be possible for a teacher, let alone the Headmaster, to ever enter that room. Perhaps that's why Albus made sure to mention it to Harry (as a restroom in need) in the first place? Part of the manipulation?

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know Sybil entered the room to hide her bottles, so teachers can certainly go there. Jodel thinks Dippet placed the Horcrux books there. Rowling claims Dumbles brought the Mirror of Erised out of there.

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

Disregarding Oryx's and Mary's rebuttals, I'm not following your reasoning here. Why would any room in Hogwarts be warded against its legitimate headmaster and teaching staff? If anything, the staff should be the only people with guaranteed access to it. What leads you to assume otherwise? And if the Headmaster especially (why?) is barred from the room, just who was meant to access it?

[josephinestone.livejournal.com]

Anyone can enter it, they just need to think they need something to hide.

That Harry didn't figure out what Draco thought to get into the room in sixth year baffled me.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)

This made me laugh out loud! But it's pretty obvious, from this book, that Snape's quite fit - not gym rat fit, but he's a walker (and stair climber, obviously!)

And yes, I'd always thought that the cave was staged and that Dumbledore would have died from the potion had Severus not killed him. In fact, back in the days right after HBP was published, I was convinced that Dumbledore was already dead when Severus hit him with the AK. Thus, the climax of HBP was a reprise of the climax of OOTP. In both cases, Harry blamed Severus for what Harry himself had done.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

From Albus's perspective, as long as he voluntarily died at the hands of ONE of his most loyal followers it was all good. Wand masterless (or worst case, mastered by one obedient to Albus), loyal servant devastated and distraught at what he'd had to do....

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Now, that's a very good point! The most disconcerting thing about this, to me, is that I really do think Dumbledore may, on some level, reflect Rowling's image of God the father. Which makes instant sense of her comment that the books also reflect her struggle to believe-

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hi Terri. If I understand you correctly, your assumptions are as follows: Dumbles visited the cave previously and knew what to expect there, and planned to die at Severus' hand after drinking the potion - though away from any other witness. Do you think he knew there was no Horcrux in the Birdbath of Doom or did he (mistakenly) expect to return with a Horcrux? In the latter case, who was going to destroy it? Was he planning on destroying it with the sword as his one last act? Was he expecting Severus to do so by his instruction or with the help of the Horcrux books, conveniently left out in the open for his benefit? (If so, how does this fit with PortraitDore's refusal to tell Severus what Harry was going to need the sword for?) Or was the plan to tell Severus to give Harry the books (Dumbles probably expected the Ministry to confiscate them had he mentioned them in his will) so that Hermione would eventually figure out that the sword could be used to destroy the Horcrux (and any others the kids might find). I know, he could have said something to Harry during their lesson - the kids might have realized the implications and secured the basilisk fangs before leaving the school for the summer.

Also, you are assuming that while Twinkles knew Draco had used Rosmerta in his plans, he did not know of Draco's work on the cabinet and had no reason to expect an attack from Draco that night until Harry reported of Draco's celebratory calls from the ROR. Which means the choice to show himself to Rosmerta and the conversation with Draco on the tower were improvised, and chances are the promise to save Draco and Narcissa was an empty one.

In any case, if Tom was to learn that Severus was the one to have killed Dumbles, Tom would have wanted to kill Severus in order to control the Elder Wand.

So really, the main difference between canon and Dumbles' more ideal scenario was that Severus might have been still trusted by the Order and the Hogwarts staff. I doubt Harry would have trusted him though.

[maidofkent.livejournal.com]

So really, the main difference between canon and Dumbles' more ideal scenario was that Severus might have been still trusted by the Order and the Hogwarts staff. I doubt Harry would have trusted him though.

He might have done, if he had been told that Snape was the Prince, because Harry liked the Prince a great deal. Once Slughorn had agreed to return to Hogwarts, Dumbledore knew that if Harry gained an E in his OWLs he would be able to take Potions, but he did not pass on that information. Did he arrange (by omission of information and some sort of charm for Harry to have the Prince's book? If Dumbledore intended for Harry to come to trust Snape via the book, then that plan was scuppered by Sybill's revelation.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

It is interesting to try to figure out what really was Dumbledore's plan. Whatever it was, it is very fragile. Since no one knows anything it is so easy for people to do what he didn't plan for and throw the whole thing off. And Dumbledore doesn't understand other people the way he thinks he does.

Harry's task would have been so much easier if Dumbledore had just talked to him. Remember how Hermione thought Harry would be learning advanced magic in the "lessons". There is so much Harry should know by now. How to identify a Horcrox. How to destroy the Horcrox - the sword can, but what else will work.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

As destroying the Horcrux in the Resurrection Stone would have been his One Last Act had Severus not successfully stoppered that death?

Really, now I think of it, this puts a kbosh on my theory that Albus had developed a Horcrux-detection spell. Because if he could tell the locket in the birdbath wasn't one, it's had to see why he put himself through all of that. Why pick that particular means and time of suiciding, if he didn't expect to take the second Horcrux with him?

(I mean, nobly sacrificing himself to kill one-seventh of Riddle's soul is one thing---being a chump who died to recover a fake is another.)

(And maybe Albus originally planned/expected to put on a reprise of the RS-Horcrux destruction' he'd "kill" the Birdbath-Horcrux with the Sword of Gryffindor, showing Harry how it's done, and then call Snape and allow Severus to "treat" him. Only he overestimated his resistance to the potion's effects, along with underestimating Draco, and had to give up that portion of the plan--or was too disoriented to remember it--or too eager to die--before he reached the castle.)

Unless the properties of the potion were such, he couldn't tell what was or wasn't in the Birdbath until the potion was drunk....? The potion WAS impossible to affect magically (couldn't be transfigured, charmed, or banished), so maybe it shielded the contents from magical as well as mortal vision, and DD just INFERRED there must be a Horcrux at the bottom.

As for Draco's plans... I imagine Albus thought, two attempts to smuggle lethal artifacts via the Leaky Cauldron having failed, that what Draco was trying to repair in the RoHT was another cursed artifact that he wouldn't have to try to get past Filch's probity probes. And naturally, nothing that little Draco could possibly manage could inconvenience the great AD in any way, so he wasn't worried about Draco's gleeful "whoops." (Draco's surprise for him, of course, especially could not inconvenience Albus if he had recently died of other causes.) The fact that he picked a night when Draco was in the RoR (and Draco's demeanor might of signalled he was hopeful of being near success), did not change his plans on hearing Harry's news, and deliberately showed himself to Rosmerta really does suggest he was leading Draco on to try his worst....

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

It is in character for DD to underestimate Draco. One of DD problems is he thinks everyone else is inferior to him.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Because if he could tell the locket in the birdbath wasn't one, it's had to see why he put himself through all of that. Why pick that particular means and time of suiciding, if he didn't expect to take the second Horcrux with him?

Well, Severus gave him a year back in early July 1996. It was now June 1997. His time was nearly up. There may have been other signs that the curse was progressing and he wouldn't even have the full year. He might have tried to find other Horcruxes but had no leads, and he really wanted to purify his soul before his death.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Dumbledore was so sure there was a horcrux in the cave that he simply never bothered to cast a detection spell. Anyone can be so sure about something that they don't think to check it in every possible way, and Dumbledore is more, shall we say, automatically confident of his reasoning than average. And Voldemort was clearly protecting something important there.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Come to think of it, I like the idea that the potion itself blocks the detection spell (not necessarily by intention of its designer). That would give the Severus of UA a reason to feed it to Petunia.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hmm. If Albus expected to manage to demonstrate the destruction of the Horcrux, why would he need the books to be out? I think he wasn't quite certain, so he left the books out, maybe open or bookmarked on the page that explains about basilisk venom, in hope he'd manage to instruct Harry how to do it even if he wouldn't be able to do it himself. Alternately, he really was not expecting to bring back a Horcrux and left the books out for Harry's later benefit, but he was keeping up the pretense for as long as he could (which was why he avoided telling Harry anything that Harry might expect to be demonstrated to him).

[oryx_leucoryx]

Another take: Dumbles used his detection spell, got no response, but convinced himself that absence of evidence was not, in this particular case, evidence for absence, because the potion must have been blocking the spell.