HBP Chapter Twenty-Six: "The Cave"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* I don’t know why, but whenever I read this chapter’s title it makes me think of My Immortal. “Harry was expecting Dumbledore to take him to the 3 bromsticks, but instead they went into………… DA CAVE!!!!!!!”

* Tom must have had some pretty awesome wizarding skills to magically get himself and two other people down the cliff at age ten. Harry, naturally, can’t do this after his sixth year at wizarding school, and has to climb down the muggle way.

* Wait, so how can you tell that a place has “known magic”? I don’t think we’ve been given any indication before that you can sense where a magical enchantment has been cast. Maybe it’s just a super special power that only Dumbledore has.

* So Harry and Dumbledore swim through the water to enter the cavern. For some reason this fact strikes me as rather Freudian.

* Dumbles works out where the concealed entrance is by running his hands along the cave walls, which again is something we’ve never seen before. What is this skill? And why isn’t it taught at Hogwarts? Maybe Dumbledore’s just been slipping curiosity-reducing potion into the Hogwarts pumpkin juice for the last x number of years, and doesn’t teach people how to recognise magic in order to reduce his chances of being found out. Naturally now that Voldemort’s come back the Headmaster needs to keep people even more docile than usual to stop them questioning his war strategy, so he’s been upping the dose over the past two years. That explains why nobody really cares about the attempted murders, and why Ron and Hermione don’t want to investigate the Draco mystery. (Harry does because his deep and enduring love for Draco is even stronger than the curiosity-killing potion.)

* “‘Harry, I’m sorry, I forgot,’ [Dumbledore] said.” Yeah, well done Professor, forgetting that your favourite pupil and the only hope of the wizarding world is catching hypothermia right next to you. What was that you said last chapter about caring for the safety of your students?

* “Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury.” Yeah, but if you’re going to have to fight off a horde of inferi, being physically injured isn’t that good a situation to be in.

* That said, a little bit of blood wouldn’t hurt you that much, especially not since you could magically heal yourself immediately afterwards. Why not make it a really big payment, like having to kill somebody to get in? That way no good guy could ever get to your Horcrux, because they’d all be too noble (alright, alright, stop laughing) to do so.

* I’m not sure why Dumbledore thinks that trying out a spell which is bound to fail and alerts whatever’s guarding the Horcrux to your presence is “a very good idea”, but oh well.

* “‘Magic always leaves traces,’ said Dumbledore.” Not that you need to know what these traces are, Harry, or how to recognise them, even though you’ll be spending most of next year hunting for a series of hidden magical objects, and being able to tell where somebody’s cast a spell would be very helpful for that sort of thing.

* Dumbles said that weight won’t be an issue when crossing, because Voldie would care more about magical power, and bewitch the boat to only take one wizard at a time. Erm… if you say so, Dumbledore. I mean, sure, maybe he has done that; then again, maybe he hasn’t, or maybe he has, but in such a way that the boat will still capsize if it’s overloaded. You’re taking an awful risk based on a guess about a boat you just discovered thirty seconds ago, aren’t you?

* Speaking of wild guesses: “I do not think you will count, Harry: you are underage and unqualified.” Gosh, how convenient that Voldemort tied his super security system to the government’s statutes about when you can and can’t perform magic unsupervised.

* “Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake… age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimated youth,” says the man whom even death can’t prevent from manipulating his teenage protégé.

* The corpses floating in the lake are pretty cool, but seem suspiciously similar to the Dead Marshes from The Lord of the Rings.

* I’m not sure why wizards would view death as this great unknown mystery, when their world is full of ghosts, sentient portraits of dead people, and a stone able to summon back spirits from the afterlife.

* Yes, Voldemort, guard your precious soul-fragment with creatures which can be defeated by a basic fire-making spell! That’ll work as a security arrangement.

* So OK, Dumbles, maybe Voldemort wouldn’t want to immediately kill somebody who tried to drink the potion, but again, you’re taking a big risk based on nothing more than speculation and guesswork.

* It would kind of serve Dumbledore right if it turned out that the potion was in fact a poison which takes immediate effect, and he keeled over and died as soon as the first drop touched his lips.

* Wait, so if Voldemort would want to question anybody who gets this far, why didn’t he set up some kind of alarm system to go off when somebody tampers with the potion? He clearly doesn’t check his Horcruxes regularly, so anybody who did get this far would probably be incapacitated and die slowly anyway, in which case why not just fill the basin with poison to be on the safe side?

* Also, why does Dumbledore not try just pouring the potion on the ground, or even using the goblet to scoop out the Horcrux? Or does the Gryffindor code say that only recklessly brave ideas can be considered?

* So Harry tries to get Dumbledore some water, and accidentally ends up raising a whole lake full of zombies against them. Oops. Hey Potter, why didn’t you try conjuring water straight into Dumbledore’s mouth? Sheesh.

* Dumbledore says it’s “quite understandable” that Harry panicked and forgot to use fire. He’s right, of course, but he’s also highlighting how woefully unprepared Harry is for finding Horcruxes. You’d want to train him up almost like you train soldiers, so that when things start getting hairy he can keep his cool and take appropriate measures almost without thinking about it. Sending Harry as he is now to go after Horcruxes is like dragging somebody from high school, putting a gun in their hands and drafting them into a special ops unit without any basic training.

* “‘I am not worried, Harry,’ said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. ‘I am with you.’” Even though Harry just panicked in the face of an Inferi attack and Dumbledore had to save the day. What a toady that man is.

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

I don't believe Dumbles is just speculating. IMO he discovered the cave months ago and visited it frequently and researched it. His 'speculations' are in part his conclusions from his research and in part blatant lies intended to manipulate Harry to the intended line of thought.

* Also, why does Dumbledore not try just pouring the potion on the ground, or even using the goblet to scoop out the Horcrux? Or does the Gryffindor code say that only recklessly brave ideas can be considered?

Or why not conjure a couple hundred goblets so that the basin can be emptied without any potion being drunk? Because Dumbles wanted to drink that potion. Perhaps as part of the theatrics of setting up his death scene for Harry's sake, perhaps in order to have an excuse to send for Severus, perhaps as part of his manipulation of Severus (to make sure he realizes he can't delay killing Dumbles) - or because the potion has some magical property Dumbles wants to acquire before his death - maybe he hopes the potion would repair the damage to his own soul from all his past actions.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

One of the biggest complaints I have regarding this scene is that Harry can conjure water from his wand, but for whatever reason it won't fill the goblet (at least IF I recall this all correctly). So Harry takes the 'goblet' (that apparently cannot be filled with water) down to the water's edge to fill it up. This is the same water that they just crossed in a boat that had apparently plenty of dead folk in it! WHY??? Would YOU want to drink water that had dead people in it?

Also, why if the cup won't hold water that comes out of your wand, would you think it would hold water from the 'lake'? My first huess would have been that it can't hold anything other than what was in the basin. Why not try using the wand like a drinking fountain instead? And lastly, wouldn't one normally expect a basically underwater sea cave (that happens to have water in it) to be more likely to be filled with SALT water? How is that going to help a desperately thirsty Albus? (Must be desperate if Harry thinks he'll drink water from a lake with dead bodies in it!)

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Tom must have had some pretty awesome wizarding skills to magically get himself and two other people down the cliff at age ten. Harry, naturally, can’t do this after his sixth year at wizarding school, and has to climb down the muggle way./

Well, he did have an abnormal level of control over his magic at a young age, just like Lily did.

/Dumbles works out where the concealed entrance is by running his hands along the cave walls, which again is something we’ve never seen before/

A lot in this chapter is only introduced now and never expanded on again: traces, entry through blood, “known magic,” etc.

/“Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury.”/

Actually, that would cast an interesting light on Voldemort’s insistence on constantly using the Avada Kedavra Curse, wouldn’t it? I mean, he’s obviously not a squeamish person; he had no problem with Nagini devouring Charity Burbage or biting Snape to death. But others have noted before that the spell that he uses the most, while considered the worst of the Unforgiveable Curses, is a curse that kills instantly, cleanly, and leaves no physical wound or evidence. Before, Dumbledore spoke of Voldemort’s failure to grasp that there are “much more terrible things” than death. Now, he is assuming that Voldemort also considers physical injury something to fear as well. But why?

/Gosh, how convenient that Voldemort tied his super security system to the government’s statutes about when you can and can’t perform magic unsupervised./

Especially since he himself was able to perform magic unsupervised under the Ministry’s nose.

/Wait, so if Voldemort would want to question anybody who gets this far, why didn’t he set up some kind of alarm system to go off when somebody tampers with the potion?/

Or rather an alarm system to go off when any of his Horcruxes are threatened? Again, the movie slightly changed this by making Voldemort (and Harry) vividly sense when each Horcrux was destroyed. These are objects that Voldemort murdered other people to make, that he split his soul to make, that were instrumental in his goal to conquer death…and he just drops them off wherever he can think of and doesn’t bother to check on them every now and then or create some system which would alert him to their status?

/“‘I am not worried, Harry,’ said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. ‘I am with you.’” Even though Harry just panicked in the face of an Inferi attack and Dumbledore had to save the day./

True, but without the context, I did think that this was a moving line. And I’ve read comments from fans who wished that this had been the final send-off to Harry and Dumbledore’s relationship, rather than what we got in DH.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid my first reaction to that line ('I'm not worried, I'm with you') as I read it, was a snort of disbelief. Then I thought that Albus really OUGHT to be worried. However, as Albus began to 'rally' a bit in Hogsmeade and on the broom flight into Hogwarts, I felt maybe it wasn't really so bad.

But I distinctly remember thinking at the time 'flattery will get you no where' and that Harry was probably going to splinch them since he had never done a side-along apparition before.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

You know, I also have a problem believing that green potion was actually put there by Voldy. I mean, can you imagine Voldy EVER considering forcing someone into regrets or remorse as a form of protection?

IF he cannot understand 'love' then why would he understand 'remorse' or 'regret'?

Yes - I can understand him putting in a potion that forced one to need to drink from the lake (altho' I think that was also poorly chosen), but why the need for regret? Just so they would be incapacitated and easy inferi prey? I do not for one second believe Voldy ever felt regret, so how would he have any idea that it might work as a good protection?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yep. This is why swythyv theorizes that Tom didn't create any of it - the cave, the potion, whatever - except the inferi. He just corrupted something much older.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

* So OK, Dumbles, maybe Voldemort wouldn’t want to immediately kill somebody who tried to drink the potion, but again, you’re taking a big risk based on nothing more than speculation and guesswork.

I love this bit. Voldemort sets up a defence system that will incapacitate any would-be thief - but if they've brought an accomplice (which he knows is possible, seeing as how he apparently designed the damn thing to let him bring Kreacher along), they can quench their thirst with water from the lake of homicidal Inferi that wake up whenever anyone takes water from their lake! Maybe the Inferi were just trying to restrain Harry and Albus, but restrain them for how long, seeing as how Voldemort didn't bother to set up an alarm! How can he even tell someone's been incapacitated by the potion and is ready for questioning? What the hell is the point of any of these security measures?

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

So there's an obvious answer to everything (which I think someone else posted, years ago):

This isn't Dumbledore's first time in the cave.

It might not be his twentieth.

Just because he presented everything to HARRY as preternaturally accurate guesses, doesn't mean we have to buy the act.

He might have been in there repeatedly, analyzing every inch of space, every trap of the Dark Lord's (or of the cave's original magical users, if Jodel(?)'s theories are correct.

And then, sure of his ground, brought Harry in for the grand finale, pretending to be improvising brilliantly.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Um.

Corollary.

(Proceeds with caution over quicksand....)

Most of the night is SCRIPTED. Albus expected the cave, the Inferi, the Birdbath of Doom, the potion.....

Did he deliberately arrange to let Rosmerta see him, knowing that his absence for the evening would be the signal for Draco to try his whatever-it-was cunning plan? Please note, there was absolutely NO NEED for Harry and Albus ever to enter Hogsmeade proper; as soon as they were outside the Hogwarts gates, Albus could have Apparated. Albus took Harry past the Three Broomsticks--if Rosmerta hadn't been on the street sending off an unruly patron, would he have arranged to make sure he and Harry paused just outside the windows to confer? Or told Harry he needed to step inside for a quick one, to firm up his alibi for being absent from the school?

Katie Bell had received the opal necklace in the 3B; Slughorn's poisoned mead had come from there; that Rosmerta was, or at least might be, Draco's accomplice wasn't a far-fetched inference.

Albus expected Draco to try something. And he fully intended in the end to suicide-by-Severus. And he expected to come back from the Birdbath of Doom with that potion in his system.

When they landed on the Astronomy Tower, he sent Harry to find Severus Snape--under his invisibility cloak, speaking to no one else..... And he explicitly sent Harry to "go and wake" Snape in his quarters. When we know that, despite the lateness of the hour, Snape was waiting in his office... for some summons? Which in the event came from Filius, warning that Death Eaters had broken into Hogwarts castle.

(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)

The Order had been warned and was patrolling. Except Snape, who was waiting in his office--where he could be quickly found in an emergency. And Dumbledore told Harry that Snape was sleeping, and sent the kid down to the dungeons to wake him. (And Harry is expected to know where the head of Slytherin sleeps? Albus, what Snarry-chan have you been reading?)

What would have happened that night had it not been for Draco's (apparently utterly unexpected) access of competence?

Oh, BTW, what does Twinkles claim heals the soul? Remorse. Like, you know, what seemed to be induced by that birdbath-potion.

I think Dumbles expected Harry to drag his (dying) carcass back to the castle. And then said carcass would send the boy off on a wild-Snape-chase. While privily summoning Snape to his side, to administer the, as it were, last rites. Which would, in fact, put Snape in a MUCH better position vis-a-vis the Death Eaters--he could have had a memory to show Tom of killing Albus, while being publicly untarnished and still accepted by the Order and the Ministry. That way, Tom could still have installed Snape as Headmaster even had not Wizarding Britain collapsed utterly before September... as canon went, Severus was worthless, a hunted criminal, until the Ministry fell.

And best of all, Albus would die with his own soul fresh-shrived, and BOTH of his favorite pawns tortured by self-blame over Albie's death.

What's not to like in that scenario?

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I’ve just been discussing the Remorse Potion with Nightfall Rising (aka Potionpen) in an exchange of private messages on ff-dot-net. N.R.’s view is that once Albus drank the potion he was doomed no matter what happened, because there was no way he could have made sufficient amends for his many crimes before the artificially-induced remorse killed him. I think the Remorse Potion didn’t “take” properly, since even in the afterlife it was clear that Dumbles never repented of his wicked ways. He continued to manipulate Harry shamelessly, and his condescension toward Severus was just plain revolting.

On the other hand, if Severus had had to drink from the Birdbath of Doom, I suspect it would have had no effect on him at all. By Book Six he is already full to the eyeballs with remorse. That’s why he’s by far the most principled character in canon: he’s earned it the hard way.

Regarding Sev’s athletic stair-climb: maybe he’d already developed his flying skills.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Hm, interesting point RE the potion and Albus in the afterlife (if that was indeed Albus and not some externalized projection of Harry's own). It makes me rather wonder if it's not something like Amortentia - able to induce an artificial state bearing certain similarities with the real deal, but unable to actually force it.

At best, the remorse potion might put one in a state conducive to realizing one's wrongs and so to the inner development of true remorse, but if that doesn't happen the subject will, at most, experience the remorse analogue to Amortentia's 'love' obssessiveness.

WORD on Severus earning it the hard way. He's one of the very few canon characters (maybe the only one?) who has actually done the work.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

That’s one of the reasons I consider Severus the true protagonist of the saga. The protagonist of a story is the one who undergoes transformation, and Severus is almost the only one who actually grows up. From the playground in Cokeworth to the floor of the Shrieking Shack, he is put through an absolute wringer of moral growth. And the response of Dumbledore, JKR’s stand-in for God the Father, is a sad shake of the head and “Poor Severus.”

Neville is the other one who grows up, but he doesn’t have as far to go, and he doesn’t experience moral growth. He doesn’t need to. He’s already highly principled in Book One. He always knows the right thing to do; he just needs to develop the ability to put it into effect. I have often said that Remus Lupin, for one, needs to take lessons in moral courage from eleven-year-old Neville Longbottom.

Harry has a chance to start growing up in Book Five, when he learns the truth about his bullying father and godfather, but he goes nowhere with it. The main difference between Harry at eleven and Harry at seventeen is an increase in self-importance. He’s young enough that the Remorse Potions might have helped him, though I think he would have needed repeated doses so he wouldn’t forget. And lots of instruction from Severus to understand what he was feeling, and the consequences of ignoring it.

[oryx_leucoryx]

One can add Percy, who was well-intended but naive. And very likely Draco. Terri already did the research on him.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)"

Huh, maybe that infamous greasy hair wasn't actually grease at all, but sweat from all the constant extreme workouts he was doing.


More broadly, your theory on how Dumbledore orchestrated his death makes a good deal of sense. I might end up adopting it for my own personal head-cannon.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Yes, Percy should be included as well. I don’t think he was necessarily wrong to support the legitimate government of wizarding Britain instead of a vigilante organization. It’s obvious that the Death Eaters are bad guys, but unless one is willing to have perfect faith in Dumbledore and his Chosen One, it’s not so clear which of the two anti-DE factions deserves support. Where Percy shows maturity is when he arrives at Hogwarts for the Final Battle and instantly casts aside his pride and grovels to the twins for the sake of unity before they all go into combat. He needs to apologize to his parents (though Arthur needs to apologize to him as well), but not to his younger brothers who treated him like garbage.

And Draco was struggling all the way through Books Six and Seven to find some sort of ethical path that wouldn’t get himself and his parents killed—a task for which he sorely needed guidance, and never got any.

[oryx_leucoryx]

You know, that also answers why Twinkles never found the diadem that was sitting under his very nose, in a room on the same floor where his own office was located. That cave was so captivating, there was so much to research there, he just couldn't be bothered to look through the school, despite the fact that logically it had to be on Tom's list of places to mark as his own by planting a Horcrux in them.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Well, you're probably correct, but just to be fair, don't you think the Room of Hidden Things is probably hidden most especially from the Headmaster? In other words, I'm not sure it would ever be possible for a teacher, let alone the Headmaster, to ever enter that room. Perhaps that's why Albus made sure to mention it to Harry (as a restroom in need) in the first place? Part of the manipulation?

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know Sybil entered the room to hide her bottles, so teachers can certainly go there. Jodel thinks Dippet placed the Horcrux books there. Rowling claims Dumbles brought the Mirror of Erised out of there.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Yes, and we also know that Dumbledore entered the room when he was searching for a chamber pot.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

(Pause to admire Snape's physique and stamina--he apparently ran up umpteen flights of steps, from the depths of the dungeons to the top of Hogwarts' very tallest tower, pausing only to administer a few hexes along the way--and arrived calm, collected, and not in the slightest short of breath, perfectly prepared to cast that Avada Kedavra. We see the benefits of keeping up one's training regime!)

This made me laugh out loud! But it's pretty obvious, from this book, that Snape's quite fit - not gym rat fit, but he's a walker (and stair climber, obviously!)

And yes, I'd always thought that the cave was staged and that Dumbledore would have died from the potion had Severus not killed him. In fact, back in the days right after HBP was published, I was convinced that Dumbledore was already dead when Severus hit him with the AK. Thus, the climax of HBP was a reprise of the climax of OOTP. In both cases, Harry blamed Severus for what Harry himself had done.

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

Disregarding Oryx's and Mary's rebuttals, I'm not following your reasoning here. Why would any room in Hogwarts be warded against its legitimate headmaster and teaching staff? If anything, the staff should be the only people with guaranteed access to it. What leads you to assume otherwise? And if the Headmaster especially (why?) is barred from the room, just who was meant to access it?

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

If the ROR becomes whatever you need it to be, and you need it to be somewhere where you can hide all your incriminating stuff without the authorities finding out, then it's possible that teachers can't access the room in that form (unless they themselves need to hide something, which is how Sybil managed to get in there to hide her sherry bottles).

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Yes - Albus entered the Room of Requirement - that is not exactly the same as the version of the room that is the Room of Hidden Things.

I had missed the bit by JKR that said the Mirror of Erised was in the Room of Hidden Things - and just to confirm - she said that particular version of the Room of Requirement? or just that he got it from the RoR?

I also missed the stack of sherry bottles in the RoHT (hidden things), is it specified that she hid them there? Or just that she was exiting the door? Because if she was only using the RoR, she might have specified a specific hiding place that would give her a different room fromthe RoHT. Of course it also would be rather easy for Harry to miss seeing a bunch of sherry bottles when one could easily assume there would be a veritable mountain of firewhiskey empties left by naughty school kids.

I admit that it is quite possible that Albus was merely stupid or purposely avoiding to search that particular incarnation of the RoR, but it does seem to negate the purpose of the Room of Hidden Things if the school's authority can just waltz in anytime.

And I think I will probably disagree with the idea that books on Horcruxes were in there - at least while Tom was at school. To hide the diadem there when he returned to ask for the DADA spot pretty much implies he knew about the RoR as a student. I cannot imagine him not attempting to find those books there before leaving. The question only remains as to whether or not he realized the RoR could become the RoHT or whether he was merely looking for a place to hide the diadem and that was the first he ever saw the RoHT?

I would tend to think that he would have planned to hide the diadem there all along - once he learned from the Grey Lady that it was in Albania. IF he had ever seen the incarnation of the room that was the RoHT then I think he would have looked there for the books - just to be safe - before even asking Slughorn's opinion on quantity.

Truthfully, it would be especially silly of Voldy to hide the Diadem there IF he ever looked there and found the books. I think they were hidden elsewhere.

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know Sybil and Draco were briefly in the same physical room. Sybil entered to hide her bottles, while she was there she heard Draco hooting over his success (at making the cabinet work), and then everything went dark and she was ejected. The darkness must have been from Draco tossing Peruvian darkness powder. The room she was in was the same room into which Draco emerged from the cabinet, ie the ROHT.

I cannot imagine him not attempting to find those books there before leaving.

Well, according to Jodel he did, that was where he learned about Horcruxes. When Horace told him the topic was banned he knew to look for the books in the ROHT because that was where all banned books were kept.

I disagree with her bwecause IMO he already knew quite a lot about Horcruxes before speaking to Horace, he just needed an opinion about whether making more than one was feasible. (What he heard in Horace's response was that there was a moral objection but not a technical one.)

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I expect most people are thinking, "I need to hide my sherry bottles/cigarettes/girly mags/incriminating potions text right now" without adding on a codicil that reads "forever and ever unto eternity amen." I doubt that sort of requirement would hold, anyway. As I recall, at least one member of the D.A. had to remain in the room in order for it to maintain its "D.A. hide-out" identity. My guess would be that once an individual who requires something goes away, the Room re-sets to neutral until the next person with a requirement comes along. Magic of this sort is much better if it has some limitations.

And I agree with annoni that if anyone could override others' requirements--especially student requirements--it would be the legitimate Headmaster, although he might need to have a fairly good idea what it was he needed to override.