HBP Chapter Twenty-Seven: "The Lightning-Struck Tower"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* Or, spoilers!

* The lack of a sea breeze tells Harry that he’s successfully apparated back to Hogsmeade, as opposed to one of the literally millions of places on Earth that (a) aren’t Hogsmeade and (b) don’t smell of the sea.

* I’m not sure why Harry would need to leave Dumbledore behind while he heads back to the castle and fetches Snape. He’s a wizard, couldn’t he just levitate the Headmaster back to school?

* Also, why didn’t Harry notice the giant Dark Mark in the sky until it was pointed out to him? And why hasn’t anybody in Hogsmeade except for Madam Rosmerta seen it?

* Good job the pub door wasn’t locked, or else those brooms would have just been smashed up against it.

* Credit to Rowling, this scene where they return to the castle is actually quite gripping and suspenseful.

* Dumbledore’s “Join the good side, Draco, we can protect you and your family” might be more convincing if he’d ever in the past given any sign of caring for Draco, or for any non-Gryffindor student for that matter.

* Dumbles was certain it was Draco behind all those murder attempts, and, erm, did nothing to follow up on his suspicions. What was that he said about caring for the safety of his students?

* Wait, no, he did do something – he got Snape to keep watch on him! And then, erm, did nothing with the information. Yeah, real good strategy there, Dumbledore.

* So Montague almost died because of the twins’ prank… Not that anybody sees fit to mention this to them, or to think about it at all afterwards.

* So Madam Rosmerta was imperiused for most of the year, and yet nobody noticed. Kind of like Barty Crouch, in fact, except that Harry doesn’t get all smug and judgemental this time about other people’s lack of observation.

* Still, I do quite like the characterisation here. Malfoy’s being torn between a desire to carry out his mission and growing sense that he can’t go through with it is well done, and Dumbledore’s coolness in the face of danger is very fun to watch.

* Malfoy got the idea for enchanted coins from Hermione… Good job the Marietta Edgecombe affair was hushed up, or else Draco might have got it into his head to try branding words across people’s faces.

* Still, it would be pretty funny if one day Dumbledore stood up at dinner to address the school, when suddenly *pop* the words Bad Headmaster appear in purple warts across his forehead.

* So Draco manages to carry out this super-cunning plan to achieve his goal, and seems to be more affected by death than most of the good guys are. Yet more proof that Draco Malfoy should have been the hero of this series.

* It’s lucky that Dumbledore addresses each of the Death Eaters by name, so that we readers know who they all are.

* So why is Fenrir Greyback so wolfish in his human form? We’ve never gotten any indication before that werewolves are anything other than normal human beings most of the time.

* Or maybe born werewolves are different to those who get bitten, and part of the reason Lupin is so angsty is that he’s worried his child will end up like Greyback.

* “Always the same, weren’t yeh, Dumby, talking and doing nothing, nothing, I don’t even know why the Dark Lord’s bothering to kill yeh!” Actually, Amycus does have a point, Dumbledore does have a very laissez-faire approach to fighting evil. It’s a good job Voldemort’s equally lazy, because any half-way competent and energetic dark lord would have totally crushed Dumbledore’s side by now.

* Snape comes, and totally owns this scene in the space of one page.

* Dumbledore’s death is cool and everything, but since when did Avada Kedavra make people hover in the air?

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Draco got the idea to use coins from Hermione (as well as the idea to smuggle poison in a legitimate liquid). Hermione got the idea of the coins from the Dark Mark (she says in OOTP). And IMO Tom got the idea of using the dark marks to direct Apparition from the Ministry's use of Apparition Points in public events, exemplified at the QWC in GOF. Quite a lot of knowledge exchange going on there. Just imagine how wizards might advance if they actually had organized venues for this sort of thing.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

* Dumbles was certain it was Draco behind all those murder attempts, and, erm, did nothing to follow up on his suspicions. What was that he said about caring for the safety of his students?

No, no, he totally cared about Draco's safety! (And, apparently, Lucius'). You can't expect his empathy to extend to people who don't have names, even Harry only manages that at the point of suicide!

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Dumbledore’s “Join the good side, Draco, we can protect you and your family” might be more convincing if he’d ever in the past given any sign of caring for Draco/

Like when Draco was lying in a pool of his own blood in the bathroom due to Harry’s Sectumsempra? That little incident where Harry received no serious punishment? And, again, why didn't Dumbledore offer this help before?

/Wait, no, he did do something – he got Snape to keep watch on him! And then, erm, did nothing with the information./

So, basically Albus learned absolutely nothing from Tom Riddle’s years at Hogwarts, since that’s exactly what he did back then. Only now he’s transferred the responsibility of watching but doing nothing onto Snape instead of himself.

/So Montague almost died because of the twins’ prank… Not that anybody sees fit to mention this to them, or to think about it at all afterwards./

Well, nobody sees fit to mention how Snape almost died as a result of Sirius’ prank.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

This doesn't excuse it, however, I think it might also be that Snape's Unbreakable Vow would have kicked in IF it ever appeared to the general public that Draco was going to fail at killing Albus. Ot's wierd, but I think Draco could actually fail (like his two failed attempts) as long as he still had time remaining in the year to continue trying and as long as it wasn't known that the failures were Draco's. In other words, the Vow kicked in on the Tower specifically because there were witnesses to notice. One of the DEs even used the words 'seems he can't do it' (or something close to that) with the key word from the Vow being that Narcissa said IF it seems as if Draco will fail.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

Well they didn't die so it is all good. Besides they are Slytherins - so obviously they deserved it.

DD offer to Draco is too little, too late. DD pretty much wrote off the support of the Slytherins Draco's year and the next 6 above him at the leaving feast of Harry's 1st year.

Can you image the outrage if a real world Headmaster did nothing while students were injured because one student was out to kill him? Then justifying it because "I was never in any real danger"

So, basically Albus learned absolutely nothing from Tom Riddle’s years at Hogwarts

Because if you're a good person you don't need to learn from your mistakes.

That's because only bad people need to learn from their mistakes. And when they do they don't deserve any credit or respect.

And people claim HP teaches about forgiveness.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Does it make for an Idiot Plot when valuable knowledge doesn't get carrying about as it ought to be, especially in such a small communuty?

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

There was an old comic sketch over here back in the early 90s, about a guy who went to a department to file a complaint but got stuck in an old-fashioned elevator (with hand-drawn slide-y fences and all), the beurocrats (who look human but are worse than Vorgons) come out of their offices and make excuses about why they cannot get him out of the predicament, all along the lines of "I knew that this elevator would break down sooner or later, but i ain't tellin' nobody!"

The sketch's format was about the only thing that prevented the poor guy from saying "Ffff you!", I guess.

-- David W. from thehpn

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Seriously, why hasn't this stupid world imploded a long time ago from sheer stupidity?


-- David W. from thehpn

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

I think Snape had very little hesitation time because if he procrastinated a bit more, the Vow might kick in and he'd drop dead, or the DE's might second-guess his loyalty, or both.

-- David W. from thehpn

[josephinestone.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore’s death is cool and everything, but since when did Avada Kedavra make people hover in the air?


Since it was decided it looked cool.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

I think you see that in the post-movie books. Things pop up because JKR is thinking that will look good in the movie

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Roughly the same time it was decided Crucio sends people flying across the room to crash into bookcases.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Now if it were Voldemort deciding to "multitask" and let his victim be levitated while he Crucios them because he wanted to see how much the victim would flail, I'd buy that.

But this is Harry. Multitasking does not exist in a Gryffindor's dictionary.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

At least not in Harry’s Gryffindor dictionary. It’s highly unlikely that all Gryffs are incompetent, any more than all Slyths are cowards, all Huffs are duffers, or all Ravens are boring.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

But in aspiring to be so frikking "brave", Gryffindors tend to grow into brainless wonders. The smarter ones like Percy Weasley are so because of their own efforts in studying and socializing and impressing their superiors... they're exceptions, not "proper" products of the House's upbringing.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I would put it more as the group culture we see only encourages thinking if it's in use of what they consider 'brave'. For instance, Hermione's point earnings pre-Halloween did not do anything for her but earn her the name know-it-all.

Of course, we actually have no idea about how the other Gryffindors saw her - other than other firsties she was outperforming - because it appears that Gryffs don't much mingle between years - with the exception of quidditch. However, it isn't as if Prefect Percy, who took the time during the first feast to be interested in Hermione's discussion ever continued that interest. At least not that we hear about.

An interesting parallel with Lucius at Sev's first feast. Did Lucius continue to be 'friendly' after the feast and keep an eye on the kid? Or was he more like Percy - just welcoming and then having done his 'duty', dropped him? We really don't know. There's some suggestion about a 'gang of Slytherins' but Lucius' name isn't mentioned among them while Bella, who has finished Hogwarts, is named. All we have is Narcissa's mention of Lucius as an 'old friend' when she's trying to get Snape to agree to protect Draco - so could be true - but could also be an exaggeration.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Re: Severus as Lucius' old friend - if we read the scene straight then it may have been an exaggeration, or it may have been a true reference to a relationship that started post-Hogwarts - for instance Lucius may have employed Severus for a while. (The young man had to eat something other than Death.)

If you read the scene as an act by Severus and Narcissa then there might have been even more there, but a lot of it dated from the time after Bella's arrest.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I would think there had to be 'something' before Bella's arrest. Sirius was in Azkaban before her and yet he knows (in bk5) enough to say that Snape is Lucius' "lapdog". Presumably, that is from before Sirius' arrest. He said it during Christmas break in bk5 (IF I recall it correctly) however I wouldn't say there was any particular evidence of such in bks3&4, nor that the kids were saying anything that would lead Sirius to decide such. Then again - Sirius doesn't really usually need reasons based in reality.

All we really have is that it is proven true that Snape was a DE. Sirius, as Padfoot, saw Snape show the dark mark to Fudge. That however, wouldn't show Snape as Lucius' 'lapdog', but presumably as Voldy's.

Personally, I agree that Snape probably DID do some work for Lucius after Hogwarts. I just wonder if it went earlier still. We'll probably never know.

[snapes-witch.livejournal.com]

Sirius would also have seen the relationship between Severus and Lucius when the three of them were Hogwart's students. There would have been a possible two or three years for the 'lapdog' type relationship to exist. I'd always assumed this was what Sirius was referring to.

[attilathepbnun.livejournal.com]

Of course, we should also remember that it's Sirius using the term 'lapdog'.
Considering that he's speaking of Slytherins, I should think that term could describe any non-hostile relationship

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think young firstie Sev was what is referred to in the British Public School genre of literature as a 'fag' - a younger student who acted as a kind of servant to an older student - in return the younger student received 'protection' from other students. Altho' sometimes it was protection from said older student - as in he would bully the younger child himself if that child did not willingly perform his duties. As a reminder, the use of the term 'fag' here has nothing to do with sexual preference. In fact 'lapdog' (or pet) might very well be what another young student might call this arrangement if all they saw was the protection.

However, I am trying to stick with as much canon as I can here and it is strange that Lucius is not mentioned as one of the 'gang of Slytherins'

As for how long Lucius and Sev's years overlapped? Lucius was 41 at the start of school year '95-'96. His first year at Hogwarts was therefore '65-'66, making him a 7th year in Sev's first year of '71-'72. Truthfully - I think this is the origin of Sirius' comment about Snape knowing more when he entered Hogwarts about curses than half of the 7th years. Aside from the fact that knowing about curses doesn't mean he necessarily could perform them, I think this is how the Marauders explained to themselves what a 7th year Slytherin might see in a firstie.

But that is all my own head-canon to link it all together. I really don't have canon proof.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

And how like big dog Padfoot to use a term like 'lapdog' in a derogatory manner! He makes poor Sev sound like a pekinese!

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Wasn't Severus 36 going on 37 in Year OotP? Lucius might only be 6 years above him.

Sirius is an unrepentent violent bully and attempted murder, does his judgements or character fall under a "fruit from a poisonous tree" catagory?

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

We have (as of the last book) a birth date of January 1960 for Lily. That means that since Sev was also a January baby and they both began Hogwarts in the same year, he was also born in January 1960. Placing both of them as firsties for the school year '71-'72.

At the time of bk5, when we were given Lucius' age of 41 before the beginning of that school year, JKR also said in interview that Snape was 35 or 36. What she didn't say was at what point during that book he was that age. Apparently he turned 36 in January '96, which took place during that particular school year.

As for Sirius' judgement I wouldn't even need to bring up attempted murder or bullying. We see often enough in canon that Sirius is not a good judge of character.

He was fairly sure that BartyJr hadn't been a DE, despite telling Harry that his entire family was 'dark' and despite the evidence on that tapestry that every generation had someone blasted from it. Despite being well aware that Peter had once tricked him, he also preferred to bounce a concussed and unconscious Snape's head off the tunnel ceiling rather than making sure Peter didn't fool him again.

I can easily see Sirius and James between them convincing themselves that the ONLY reason 7th year Lucius might associate with a smart little firstie is that said firstie must have known something that Lucius didn't - especially when their mindset about Slytherins meant Lucius couldn't possibly be protecting Snape without getting something for it. I doubt it would occur to them that Lucius might have been influenced by his Head of House to leave networking opportunities open And at least in Gryffindor, there doesn't appear to be a 'fagging' situation. I would question however whether the idea of 'lapdog' ever came up in regards to Peter's 'toadying'.

All I can say is imagine first year Ron's opinion of 'scary' Hermione if she had been a Slytherin,

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

PoA was a wonderful book, but the screenwriter and director for the film failed to realize that the true climax of that story is actually in the background (which resulted in what I perceive to be a castrated story for film!PoA): the marauders' incessant abuse against Snape, Snape's hatred for them, the M-'s disregard for rules, feeling they're so fucking smart and their underestimating Wormtail: it ALL came back to bite them in the asses as the events unfurled in the Shrieking Shack. Whaddyaknow, Wormtail got off scott free a-frikin-gain, Snape did not get to see the truth, and such a Godawfully elaborate plan had to be hatched in order to save Sirius's sorry ass. And Lupin gets 'outed' as a werewolf who legitimately threatened to bite everyone, frankly I dunno why he wasn't outed years ago.

Re: Lucius/Sev

If anything, Lucius was seeing Severus's talants that could be valuable to the Dark Lord in later years. I don't think he'd feel threatened since his family's political ties and money (his dad would still be alive, right?) would not be something that Severus would so easily accumulate in his lifetime, with his proletarian background.

*

I just re-watched The Dark Knight last night. There was a very suspenseful sequence where The Joker had just successfully killed the judge that was trying the underworld and Commissioner Loeb of the Gotham Police Department, and was on his way to grab Harvey Dent (a very righteous D.A. who is prosecuting the Gotham mob) at the fundraiser that Bruce Wayne (Batman) is throwing at his penthouse suite. Bruce got a tip that the Joker was approaching, and found Harvey arguing something with his girlfriend Rachel (who is a childhood friend of Bruce's and knows that he's Batman). And does he stop to yammer like Sirius and Remus and Harry? No, he walks up silently from behind, does a swift move that renders Harvey unconscious and then hides him in a closet, literally seconds before the Joker bursts into the house. Then he escapes to suit up as Batman and saves the day.

See, sh/t can actually be handled in a story without everyone holding the Idiot Ball and monologuing like Bond Villians.

i have a Headcanon where Luna did exactly that to shut Harry up and then floo over to Grimmauld Place with her wand after the Centuars got Umbridge, thus saving Sirius's life.

[sunnyskywalker]

Just think what bright wizarding kids could do with the magical equivalent of a LiveJournal community! (But Patronuses are totally better than the Internet. Really they are.)

We know they have what seem to be popular magazines and possibly trade journals, like The Practical Potioneer. That one might even be an amateur scholarly journal, since didn't Doge think it was "learned" by presumably late 19th-century standards? So I'm sure they'll get around to stealing the Muggle idea for inventing peer-reviewed scholarly journals or something comparable in another fifty years or so, right around the time George figures out how to combine aspects of those daydream charms with the Pensieve's pop-up memory function to make talking pictures a whole group can watch together.

[sunnyskywalker]

I think that's probably it. How considerate of Narcissa to word the Vow so that Albus was practically required to sit on his hands and conceal information if he didn't want Snape to drop dead!

Now I'm trying to figure out a way for Dumbledore and Snape to have offered Draco a way out and into hiding earlier, when he actually had a chance to take it, without triggering the Vow.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

There's something I wanted to ask but just couldn't word out right: how much does the WW leech off from muggle Britain? I mean, there are RL miniature countries like Monaco and Liechtenstein that has little to no industry or agriculture and earn their money mostly by tourism and the like, but they trade for their foodstuffs and electricity etc. from neighboring countries with fairly earned money from the aforementioned tourism.

The WW, on the other hand, lives within muggle Britain, has minimum contact with the majority of society, and yet somehow sustains itself economically, despite having something like 90% of its adult population working in the government. How come there can still be so many storeowners, writers, media editors etc? This is a secluded society that has almost no foreigners and there's no way those positions can be filled by Muggles.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Well, personally, I'm still of the opinion that Albus died from the fall. I know many others disagree, but it's still my contention.

FakeMadEye suggested that a failed AK could have a physical affect. He said that Harry's DADA class didn't have it in them to give him more than a nosebleed if they collectively attempted an AK on him.

So, I CAN see that a highly powerful wizard who is giving his all, putting his every bit of power behind it COULD basically toss someone off the tower with an AK that no matter what he couldn't actually 'mean'.

In other words - while Sev screwed himself up to put as much into that spell as he could, he nevertheless, in his heart didn't want Albus dead and so did not manage a normal AK, but instead something with a great deal of power that instead blasted Albus off the tower in a green light. Still the one to kill Albus - just not by AK (shudder - I'd prefer the AK to the fall)

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Now I'm imagining how Severus was supposed to kill D if no DEs were interferring and Harry went over to fetch him in his office: Severus would have done something to Harry (perhaps a strong Confoundus) that makes him not even suspect anything dirty, then rush up to the tower and push D off the tower with his hands. He hates D so much that he wanted to physically off him. Sounds good?

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Oh, and if D really dies from the fall per se, then it would lend new meaning to Alan Rickman's glee in sending another character plummeting to their death (in contrast to his own iconic death scene back in 1988's Die Hard).

[oryx_leucoryx]

If Severus didn't mean the AK, wouldn't he have died by UV before Albus had the chance to hit the ground and die anyway?

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

No, because the Vow only said that he had to finish Draco's job, not that he must use an AK. It isn't as if Draco's original order was to AK Albus. Albus has gone over the edge of a high tower without a broom or wand. Unlike Snape or Voldy, Albus does not know how to fly on his own. There is a very good likelihood that it will mean his death (which it does). I don't see a reason why the Vow would kick in.

I know you disagree with me, as do several others on this. It is my reading that Snape kills Albus, that he tried very hard to give him that more peaceful AKdeath, but that no matter his intention, Snape just did not want Albus dead and so the AK (which is surely an exceptionally strange one) did not work.

As for IF Harry (or other witnesses) were not there, I have no idea how Snape intended to kill Albus. Presumably something that could not be traced back to him - and so would allow him to continue working at Hogwarts - in case Voldy didn't immediately take over.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I actually believe Severus very much wanted Albus dead, especially after the revelation of his plan for Harry. He may have felt ashamed for wanting that, but I can't see him really not wanting it.

While the 'Vow' would have known the fall was going to kill Dumbles, lack of intent by Severus IMO should have activated the Vow, not because it would have sabotaged the AK but simply because from the moment it seemed Draco would fail Severus is required to want to complete his task. If he is allowed to not want to do it then there was no urgency to him showing up on the scene. I'd say the fact that he was able to live long enough to climb up to the tower indicates he wanted to do it.

As for if there were no witnesses - IIRC there is mention of untraceable poisons in canon.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

But one CAN kill without wanting to do so. Draco's task was only to kill Albus. He did not need to want Albus dead to accomplish his task - as long as he doesn't try to do it by AK. And since Snape's Vow only covers finishing Draco's task, then he also doesn't need to want to kill Albus. He only needs to finish the task. So as long as Albus ends up dead - no problem with the vow.

As for it waiting until Snape arrives on the tower - I contend that the vow doesn't actually kick in until that one DE comments that it seems as if Draco cannot do it. Snape was already on the tower by that time, so again no problem for the vow. IF the vow would kick in without some witnesses commenting that Draco doesn't seem to be able to do it - then the vow should have kicked in on Draco's first failure.

It isn't logical. But it IS the way the Vow was worded. Draco has to SEEM to fail before the Vow hits. And Snape was already on the tower by that time. In fact, he immediately steps forward (no hesitation) and casts the AK. I think the vow would have even allowed a duel between Snape and Albus that could have been however long it took, as long as Albus ended up dead at the end.

As for poison (untraceable or not) - my pet theory (no canon) would be a digitalis overdose. Yes, it could be done with just foxglove, but I love the idea of an actual muggle drug by the Half-blood Prince. And a heart attack would be believable after what Albus had just been through. Less believable IF Albus and Harry had not just gone on an adventure, so perhaps not?

Another good reason for Snape to kill Albus at that moment is because IF Albus dies from that potion in the basin then folks are going to accuse Harry unless he tells why they went. Of course Snape doesn't know it was about horcruxes, but he might want to protect the info since he knows it was something Albus wanted secret.

As for Snape's apparent hate and wanting Albus dead - I'll just say that it is entirely possible to have conflicted feelings. One CAN want to kill someone and yet also want not want that person dead. And I think Snape was VERY conflicted.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Severus would have tried very hard to save Albus from the "poison" in the Birdbath of Doom (if it wasn't poison, who would know?), and the "antidote" he tried (his own special make, that no one had ever seen before) tragically did not do the job. It would simply appear that he had tried to save Albus and failed. Would that be so unbelievable? He's an expert potioneer, but he's not a miracle-worker.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

You know, then would be a good time for Dumbledore to come clean (to a degree) that he's poisoned by Voldemort and if Severus fails to kill him himself then Voldemort might inherit his wand after death, that he'd been realizing that his wand has been "charging" in a lot of raw power in his years of doing magic, etc. Severus was totally not alive when Dumbledore was still in school, he wouldn't know that the wand D has isn't Made By Ollivander's Inc.

Seriously, I love the movie DH's ending to pieces, where Harry breaks the Elder Wand. C'mon folks, it's a piece of wood, not the One Ring. Dumbledore should have made Snape promise to "accidently" stomp on the wand on his way out of the "murder scene".

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

/As for poison (untraceable or not) - my pet theory (no canon) would be a digitalis overdose.../

I just want to point out that this was exactly what happened to 007 in Casino Royale. He was on another winning streak of the game and the enemy wanted him out without alerting the authorities (long story short, the boss blew a hole in his terrorist bank's finances—no thanks to Bond—and he really needed to make up for the deficit).

[oryx_leucoryx]

The Vow must have done something before Amycus' words, because Severus went directly from the dungeon to the tower. Flitwick couldn't have said anything about the tower because at the time Minerva sent him to Severus Draco hadn't gone to the tower yet (Gibbons went to send up the Dark Mark, then Bill went in that direction but was bitten by Fenrir and fell, then Draco stepped over Bill on the way to the tower), nor did the teachers know that Dumbles had returned. The only thing I can imagine directing him there would be the Vow alerting him. Maybe the Vow was on some lower level of alert, but it was already active. Or perhaps, since both Dumbles and Harry could see Draco, it was the moment Harry saw Draco lower his wand that triggered the Vow. Harry certainly understood it as Draco giving up. Especially with Albus' commentary. Or even Albus may have seen Draco's choice of Expelliarmus over a lethal spell as giving up. So that might have triggered the Vow. Because the wording of the Vow does not specify to whom it should seem Draco wasn't capable of fulfilling his task.

[sunnyskywalker]

I wish I knew! I can't remember who it was that wondered if wizards have some sort of imports consortium (maybe JOdel?) to bring in bulk food, cloth, etc. from the Muggle world and then re-package it for the magical market, but what do they trade with? Gold? Can't see the goblins wanting to let that get out of circulation for all practical magical-world purposes. Or do they just fudge Muggle records and modify warehouse guards' memories and make off with whatever they want?

[sunnyskywalker]

Maybe Snape has reverse-engineered the Marauders' Map since PoA and saw Dumbledore on it? If bright schoolboys can manage it, why couldn't an adult Snape? (And if they adapted it from a pre-existing item, that would make it even easier.) It seems like an awfully handy tool for a spy, especially one who's trying to keep track of a kid with an assassination mission this year. Or maybe Dumbledore has a summoning method a little less conspicuous than Patronus-mail, something more like the DA coins. If Hermione can take inspiration from Voldemort's Dark Mark servant-summoning system, surely Dumbledore can too.

I don't think we have any evidence for either, but then, I don't think we have any evidence that the Vow comes with GPS either. It might just as well count Snape trying to figure out where Dumbledore is as a step toward trying to fulfill the mission and so not kill him unless he stops looking and has a coffee break instead. It might not even warn him magically that he's up, and he's only at risk once he knows that someone has noticed Draco failing. JKR probably didn't think beyond "er, he had some way of knowing surely, and this was the most dramatic moment for him to show up," which makes it hard to work out something that makes sense...

I think Draco seeming to fail must be something definitive, like lowering his wand or a DE commenting that he can't do it. Otherwise yeah, it should have kicked in after the necklace or the mead failed to kill Dumbledore.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I was thinking more along the lines of Severus's "antidote" being the real poison that killed Albus, and Severus just telling everyone it was the Dark Lord's Birdbath potion that did it. Neither potion would be available for analysis afterward, and the wizarding world is terrible at gathering evidence anyway.

[oryx_leucoryx]

There is also the curiously fast appearance of Severus when Draco's life was in danger. I think the Vow comes with a GPS for events that are very likely to trigger it.

think Draco seeming to fail must be something definitive, like lowering his wand or a DE commenting that he can't do it. Otherwise yeah, it should have kicked in after the necklace or the mead failed to kill Dumbledore.

Nobody *saw* Draco's previous failures. The only ones who knew what his task was were DEs and Dumbles, and neither of them witnessed his failures in any way, nor did they have reason to believe he would not try again, given an opportunity. On the tower Dumbles saw Draco. And several pages of dialogue before Draco lowered his wand, the eyewitness, who knows what Draco's task is, says 'Draco, Draco, you are not a killer'. On the following page Dumbles suggests to Draco to get on with the job, now that he is defenseless, and Draco doesn't, to which Dumbles says "... I don't think you will kill me, Draco". Hmm, thinking of it this way, it almost looks like Dumbles was deliberately triggering the Vow 'Hey, look, I can see he has the opportunity and isn't taking it. Does it seem like he is failing yet? Now where is that Severus person?'

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

If Severus didn't mean the AK, wouldn't he have died by UV before Albus had the chance to hit the ground and die anyway?


Whenever someone uses that, all I can think of is

Today I didn't even have to use my A.K.
I got to say it was a good day

[sunnyskywalker]

Nobody *saw* Draco's previous failures.

Though Narcissa didn't say that Draco had to seem to fail to anyone in particular. What if it seemed to Draco himself that he might fail? I guess he knew he still had another chance since he wasn't caught and so the Vow wouldn't kick in? Maybe "still had a chance" was the key point, actually. Snape could have seen Draco hand off the necklace and then its failure to kill Dumbledore, but because he wouldn't have told anyone (well, not anyone who would have tried to stop Draco publicly at that time), that didn't preclude Draco from trying again, so he wasn't seeming to fail, just experiencing a temporary setback. Draco standing alone in his room and saying to himself, "I messed up, I'm going to get caught, I can't fix the cabinet either, I just can't pull this off," might have triggered the Vow. If someone--including Draco--knew it was possible for him to try again, everything was fine; it was only if someone--including Draco--knew he was out of options that there was a problem.

I wonder what would have happened if Draco had stood in his room after one of the attempts and believed he had failed utterly and wouldn't get another chance at it? Maybe it's lucky he started off with so much oblivious, unearned confidence.

[penguinsuzie.livejournal.com]

Well, personally, I'm still of the opinion that Albus died from the fall.

I'm really fond of this idea. The flashback of Snape and Dumbledore talking implied that he'd never killed anyone before, which adds credence to the idea that his AK failed.