Dumbledore and the Spy in the Order
Jun. 24th, 2014 07:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sunnyskywalker posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslockAn idea sparked by Oryx's "Appendix B" post on the Order of the Phoenix during VoldWar I.
Why didn’t Dumbledore figure out who the spy was, if he’s even a halfway decent Legilimens? Was Peter a fantastic Occlumens? Was Dumbledore actually a total failure at Legilimency?
Or did he think he knew exactly who it was, and so didn’t realize he needed to look again? More to the point, why do we assume there was only one spy in the mix?
A while ago on her Red Hen site, JOdel floated the possibility that Remus started spying on the werewolves for Dumbledore during the first war, and returned to the job in HBP (or had been doing it off and on all along, but started living with them full time in HBP). Fenrir Greyback and co. would hardly have let Remus hang around if he came on openly declaring that he was there to persuade them away from their evil ways. No, that would be slowly introduced, one-on-one, in secrecy. To be accepted, he would have to prove he belonged. Partly this would be some story about his hypocritically lycanthrophobic friends who hang around with each other being rich and not helping him or trusting him, but still thinking they can call him up for an adventure if they're bored, the two-faced jerks. Running with the pack at full moons, quite possibly.
But what else do spies often do to gain trust, again? Right. They pass on legitimate information occasionally.
Fenrir and his band want Voldemort to win so they can gain power. But Voldemort doesn’t help you out of the goodness of his heart — it’s quid pro quo. So one obvious way for Remus to prove his worth and loyalty to the werewolf cause is to provide information on his anti-Death Eater friends. He'll be their mole in the Order to further the bright future of werewolves everywhere!
Maybe Dumbledore totally meant for the Order members he outed via the Remus channel to get rescued just in the nick of time. Maybe he underestimated how many DEs Voldemort would send the first time or two. I’m sure whatever messed up his plans, it was someone else’s fault.
And if a few Order members he hadn’t compromised also got hit, well, Voldemort was targeting lots of people by that point, and their family associations alone might be reason enough. No reason to think one of his followers is passing along names without his say-so. Coincidences do happen.
Oops.
Why didn’t Dumbledore figure out who the spy was, if he’s even a halfway decent Legilimens? Was Peter a fantastic Occlumens? Was Dumbledore actually a total failure at Legilimency?
Or did he think he knew exactly who it was, and so didn’t realize he needed to look again? More to the point, why do we assume there was only one spy in the mix?
A while ago on her Red Hen site, JOdel floated the possibility that Remus started spying on the werewolves for Dumbledore during the first war, and returned to the job in HBP (or had been doing it off and on all along, but started living with them full time in HBP). Fenrir Greyback and co. would hardly have let Remus hang around if he came on openly declaring that he was there to persuade them away from their evil ways. No, that would be slowly introduced, one-on-one, in secrecy. To be accepted, he would have to prove he belonged. Partly this would be some story about his hypocritically lycanthrophobic friends who hang around with each other being rich and not helping him or trusting him, but still thinking they can call him up for an adventure if they're bored, the two-faced jerks. Running with the pack at full moons, quite possibly.
But what else do spies often do to gain trust, again? Right. They pass on legitimate information occasionally.
Fenrir and his band want Voldemort to win so they can gain power. But Voldemort doesn’t help you out of the goodness of his heart — it’s quid pro quo. So one obvious way for Remus to prove his worth and loyalty to the werewolf cause is to provide information on his anti-Death Eater friends. He'll be their mole in the Order to further the bright future of werewolves everywhere!
Maybe Dumbledore totally meant for the Order members he outed via the Remus channel to get rescued just in the nick of time. Maybe he underestimated how many DEs Voldemort would send the first time or two. I’m sure whatever messed up his plans, it was someone else’s fault.
And if a few Order members he hadn’t compromised also got hit, well, Voldemort was targeting lots of people by that point, and their family associations alone might be reason enough. No reason to think one of his followers is passing along names without his say-so. Coincidences do happen.
Oops.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Using Legilimency
Date: 2014-06-25 11:01 pm (UTC)He could have asked permission of his followers and interrogated them quite legitimately, especially once there was evidence for there being a leak from within the Order.
Hell, if I were a member of a vigilante group risking death from another guerilla group and imprisonment by the government, and I trusted my leader and knew him to be a Legilimens, I'd be DEMANDING that he Legilimize me and my fellow conspirators once I thought there might be a leak (whether betrayal, carelessness, or involuntary).
It wouldn't be immoral (and probably not illegal) if it were done with full permission. And any member of the Order could freely choose not to give that permission--of course, assumptions would be made by their fellows, and maybe they'd be dumped out of the Order and Obliviated if they did refuse....
The only reason why I can think why Scummy didn't suggest that is that he was playing some double game that took precedence over protecting his followers. Either Dumbles knew (or thought he knew) the source of the leak, and wanted Tom to think he hadn't figured it out (being too noble to use Legilimency against his followers like Tom does)....
Or, just possibly, Twinkles expected someone to react to such a suggestion by taking their gobstones and going home, and it was someone Albus wanted to keep tied to him more than he wanted to keep his followers safe. (I could see James-and-Sirius as contenders for this--if you don't trust us you don't have to have us!)
Can you think of other reasons why Scummy shouldn't suggest openly Legilimizing his loyal followers? I mean, other than the fact that telling ANYONE the truth and asking permission to do ANYTHING is probably so foreign as to be actively painful to them man?
Re: Using Legilimency
Date: 2014-06-26 12:01 am (UTC)There is also the possibility that James/Sirius (and other Order members) had never even heard of legilimency at that point in time.
One thing that must be considered is that several of the 'old' Order members rejoin and do not immediately demand everyone be legilmenized, even tho' it is known that there was a leak/mole in the previous Order. Not even a demand for it to be done to Sirius whom they all thought was the spy. They just accept that he is innocent without proof?
Of course, we have no idea whether or not Albus DID take a look into Sirius' mind while he had him alone in Flitwick's office before he had Harry and Hermione rescue him.
Re: Using Legilimency
Date: 2014-07-02 01:47 am (UTC)For instance, if he was discussing the possible leak with them and maybe a few others, and instead of asking them, he lamented how he couldn't use the ancient art of Legilimency on the few unnamed persons (implied to be someone not present) he suspected. James and Sirius protest that he can just ask those people, and if they refuse, well, there's your proof! Oh no, he couldn't possibly single out people like that - showing such mistrust would irreparably damage his relationship with the ones who proved innocent and would justifiably feel that he was prejudiced against them somehow. (Not that this would necessarily be true, but he thinks it's how they would feel, and so they'd believe others would too.) Then, hopefully, one of them comes up with the idea on his own that Dumbledore should Legilimize everyone. Then no one can complain! My dear boys, I wouldn't want to subject you unnecessarily to such an uncomfortable procedure... Then they're really have to, because what are they, cowards?
It might not have worked, since they all did have things to hide. But then he would have had one more foolish decision to hold over them, which it doesn't seem like he did. And I doubt using it wouldn't have occurred to him at all, since he does use it on Harry. So either he didn't think of either outright asking or manipulating his followers into asking (Dumbles, pass up an opportunity to manipulate?), or he was confident he could catch the spy by other means or already knew who it was and had reasons for not tipping them off.
Which still provides for many different possibilities, of course.
Re: Using Legilimency
Date: 2014-06-26 03:11 pm (UTC)1) It never occurred to him. (Asking for permission? What's that?)
2) It didn't occur to him people would agree (because he would never have).
3) He believed he could catch the leak anyway and didn't want to alert the traitor or Voldemort that he was aware of the leak's existence.
Re: Using Legilimency
Date: 2014-07-20 11:42 pm (UTC)