The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

In response to my last, Vermouth1991 objected to the Hogwarts Express as follows:

Re: taking the train
I've always found it a rather shite idea for all British magical students to gather over to that one station in London and then ride the train all the way north into Scotland, without stopping anywhere in between so that some northern English or Scottish persons can hop onto the Express on stations more closer to their homes. And the train stops at Hogsmeade anyway, not within the magical protection sphere of Hogwarts itself. Why can't more half-blood or pureblooded families just travel directly to Hogsmeade and wait until the rest of the students arrive and then take the Thestral carriages?

Really vermouth1991 touched on almost all of the relevant issues.  Why not, indeed?



If we start with the assumption that many stupid-looking traditions are either useful in themselves (in ways not obvious to outsiders or not admitted to be such) or, failing that, are the survivals of patterns of behavior that were once meaningful or useful….

(I recommend before reading this that you review Whitehound’s “Location, Location” series of essays—I used hir regularization of JKR’s Hogwarts/Hogsmeade/environs map, as well as calculations for the Hogwarts Express speed and information about London magical sites.  Actually, I recommend hir essays, full stop.) 

*

As to the train—blandly expecting all families sending their children off for a Hogwarts education to send them off likewise on the (non-stopping) Hogwarts Express would make a lot of logistical sense if (and only if) most Wizarding families were expected to live either in Hogsmeade or in one of a very few mixed population centers in the south--Diagon Alley, Ottery St. Catchpole, Godric's Hollow.... You're supposed to stick with your own, you see, in enclaves of at least a few magical families, not to run off and marry Muggles from nowhere and raise half-blood children on Muggle dung heaps. 

Suppose that many of the Scottish and northern English Wizarding communities had been wiped out shortly before—and partly inspiring—the Statute of Secrecy?  In real life, the last major “executions’—judicially-excused mass murders—for witchcraft in England were in Pendle, Lancashire in 1612, while Scotland suffered such massacres through the 1660’s…. 

And while Muggleborns can pop up anywhere, who cares about their families’ convenience?

In that particular conjunction of circumstances, requiring ALL magical students to meet in London first and then go on to school from there would make admirable sense.  Inconveniencing (some of the) Muggle families, punishing (some of) those marrying out, and rewarding those staying within the established southern enclaves—all without ever having to admit to any such motivations.  What could be better?

Plus, we know that Hogwarts is protected so that one cannot Apparate there, and it's clear that Floo access (and presumably Portkey) is likewise extremely restricted (we see either used only at the headmaster’s pleasure).   (Even Tom, even when the headmaster was [supposedly] his creature, walked from the gates.  And the security breach Draco exploited was created by someone else—Phineas, it has been speculated—bringing one of a twinned set of vanishing cabinets into the castle.) 

So it’s impossible for families to bring their kids straight to school in any of the fastest and easiest ways.

Hogsmeade, however, is not protected in the same way. 

Which is not to say that it’s not protected in other ways.

There might be a completely separate reason to insist that students—particularly first-years, including Muggleborns—especially Muggleborns— take a ridiculously torturous, lengthy, and inconvenient method of getting to school.

*

Item:      As Vermouth1991 pointed out, once we become familiar with Wizarding transportation beyond the broomstick, it becomes clear that any Wizarding World family could with far less trouble (and possibly expense) Side-along Apparate or Portkey their minor children to the front gate at Hogwarts, or Floo with them to the Three Broomsticks, and just walk the kids over in time for the Sorting Feast. 

Yet the Weasleys, the Malfoys, the Potters, the Blacks, the Longbottoms, never do so.  Instead they struggle (in some cases complaining bitterly) through the very heart of Muggle London, to send their children off on the Hogwarts Express.  Only in a few emergencies do we ever see students (and never first-years) travel to or from school in any other manner.

Item:      And yet almost no adults do.  The only adults we ever saw on the Express were the trolley lady, Lupin, and Slughorn.  Oh, and Hermione was able to track down one conductor at the front of the train, who never came through any of the carriages.  No parents travel with their children, nor are there (in general) teachers on board to supervise the students.  Such supervision as might occur must be performed by prefects—and we never saw prefects intervene during or after any altercation Harry and his gang had with Draco, nor help students who’ve lost pets, nor check that students weren’t left on the train, injured and unable to move….

Item:      The Hogwarts “Express” should rather, asserts Whitehound, be called the Hogwarts “Snail Rail”—it has to be significantly slower than Muggle British trains to take as long as it does (over ten hours—from 11 am to after the 9 pm Scottish sunset) to traverse the distance from London to Scotland. 

Item:      The only time the train ever stopped en route was when it was halted by Dementors searching for Sirius Black.  Are there really NO Wizarding enclaves in central or northern England, or in Scotland outside Hogsmeade, to justify building a platform where students living far from London could pick up the Hogwarts Express en route? 

Item:      On a ten hour trip, the trolley lady comes through only once, in early afternoon.  And she appears to have only sweets on her cart.

Item:      Hogsmeade Station is very inconveniently located relative to Hogsmeade—and indeed to Hogwarts.  It’s on the far side of the Hogwarts grounds from both the school’s front entrance and the village.  Once one has debarked from the train, one has to travel up a lane to get to either the village or the school’s front gates.  The distance from the station is far enough that having to walk it (even without luggage) strikes Harry as an imposition.  Or one can follow a much shorter, but narrow and unlit, footpath down to the Hogwarts coracles, and travel in them over the lake to Hogwarts’ water gate. 

The station is completely out of view of either the village or the castle.  

And yet there is that carriage lane—easily wide enough to have accommodated a continuation of the railway tracks, so that the station might have been built nearer to the school’s main entrance and to the village.  Hogsmeade Station might have been built in view of and in easy walking distance of both. 

For some reason this was felt not to be desirable. 

Item:      When the Hogwarts Express arrives, the station is unlit.  Students disembark in the dark.

Item:      Even when the weather is a near-gale, first years traditionally cross the lake (inhabited by mers and grindylows, patrolled by the giant squid) on coracles.  Then they enter a concealed (and very low—children have to duck to keep from being injured) water gate under the cliff on which the castle is built, and pass (at least, so Harry thinks) under the castle itself to an underground harbor.  They then have to clamber up a rock tunnel that debouches onto the lawn near the front entrance. 

First year students leave at the end of the year by the same route. 

Returning students, however, are carried by thestral-drawn carriages through the front gates.

Item:      Until Harry (notorious for rule-breaking) tells Albus Severus in the epilogue, no entering student seems to know that sorting into houses is performed by a hat, nor that the hat will consider the child’s preferences.  (Otherwise fear of being assigned to an undesired house would not be near-universal among pureblood children.  Moreover, if it were permissible to allay first-years’ fears, Percy would surely have explained to Ron what to expect, rather than leaving him to panic over the twins’ deliberately terrifying misinformation; similarly, if the nature of the test had been published in Hogwarts, a [Partial] History, Hermione would not have been wondering what spells she’d need as she waited with the others to be called.)

(BTW—does the hat’s telepathy imply that Godric himself was an accomplished Legilimens, or that all of the Founders were?  Was that how each originally picked hir students?)


So.  Let’s review how a new student’s entrance to Hogwarts actually works. 

Bearing in mind that what appear to us to be bugs may instead be design features.  And that what we see now is a mid to late Victorian adaptation, at a time when most first-year students were eleven-year-old children formally untutored in magic, of a procedure that may date back to near the founding, when candidates to study with the Hogwarts masters might have been of any age and background.

*
Consider:

Admission to Hogwarts is by invitation only. 

Candidates for admission must travel for most of the day.  They travel through Muggle London with their families, go through a magical portal, and then must continue with only each other for companions. 

Candidates deal as they can with fellow students (many of them nearly qualified witches and wizards) without interference by authorities. 

Candidates are fed only once, early in the afternoon, and then only if they have the forethought to bring food or coin. 

The trip is long enough to ensure that Polyjuice or short-lived glamours could not be used to impersonate a candidate—indeed, long enough that someone trying to use a long-lived glamour or a flask full of Polyjuice to impersonate anyone known to other students would likely betray hirself.   (Note that Barty Crouch did not, that we saw, make a habit of indulging in ten-hour tete-a-tetes with Alastor Moody’s friends—also that the authorities feared that Sirius Black, who had unknown powers of concealing himself, might try to make his way to Hogwarts via the train.)

Candidates arrive after sunset at a dark unknown location with no nearby habitations. 

Fasting. 

Candidates follow a guide, on foot, down a narrow, steep, dark path.  They enter onto Hogwarts grounds without being able to identify the boundary.  They cross on tiny boats over dark water patrolled by monsters, and then ascend a tunnel through the earth, coming out at last into the air near a flight of steps that they climb to gain entrance to the castle. 

Oh, and candidates undergo all this knowing that they are subject to a final, unknown test.

This test turns out to be being subjected to the interrogation of a telepathic magical object, which places them under the direct authority and supervision of one of four masters.

After all this, candidates are made free of Hogwarts Castle and its grounds, and are welcomed with a feast to the fellowship of the other students. 


This is a watered-down-for-the-children initiation.  In fact, the remnants of a trial by ordeal. 


Not only that, look at the security aspects of this procedure.  Suppose a candidate did not pass the trial?  S/he would never have seen either the main gates nor the village nor even the breach in the outer wall through which s/he entered the school grounds!  And s/he would have traveled in a manner that would preclude any but the cleverest of knowing even the location very exactly—note that Harry and Ron’s only idea of how to get there by flying was to follow the train.

If knowing a precise location is a prerequisite for Apparition, a rejected candidate could not even Apparate back to the vicinity.  By the time s/he is anywhere well-lit enough to look for identifying characteristics, s/he is within Hogwarts itself.  (Everyone, now, chorus after Hermione, “You can’t Apparate….”)

(One wonders if the mode of transport superseded by the train was thestral carriages.  Airborne.  Perhaps with the candidates blind for part of the journey.) 

Moreover, admitted candidates are still not made free of the front gates until completing a full year’s trial.  Nor of Hogsmeade for a full two years.  Had Harry been expelled when he blew up Aunt Marge, he would never have seen Hogsmeade nor known how to get there.

Second-years Ron and Harry, circling down over the castle in that flying Ford Anglia, didn’t even see the largish village just outside the Hogwarts walls.  Because they hadn’t been given the freedom of the village yet? 

Hogwarts may be, among other things, the gatekeeper for Hogsmeade. 

What did Hermione say about accidentally piggybacking that Death Eater to Fidelius-kept Grimmauld Place?  That once he’d been brought in by her, he could bring in others? 

How the Fidelius works after the death of the original Secret-Keeper—that may be the original (and very ancient) version of the spell.  Anyone who’s an initiate can initiate others.  It’s a secret only from those who’ve never been let to know.

Note that one cannot enter Diagon Alley the first time without a guide who is hirself both magical and initiate to show you the way.  The same may be true of both Hogwarts and Hogsmeade.  And if you’re an outsider, you need to prove yourself at Hogwarts before being allowed into the village. 

What did Hermione tell us about Durmstrang?  That it was hidden, not just from Muggles, but from magical non-alumni?  The same may be true of Hogwarts, only the fact would go unnoticed among the magicals we meet in canon, because everyone Harry knows IS a Hogwarts alumn.

Or, all of them except the foreigners.  There may be a second reason why the magical schools stopped holding the Triwizard Tournament, which requires the host school to open itself to the contestants.  Dumbledore’s stated reason for resurrecting it was to promote international cooperation,  yes?  And it was he who opened his school.  Maybe he hoped for foreign assistance should Hogwarts finally be overcome by the native-reared Dark Lord.

But he didn’t open Hogsmeade to them—the foreign students were not given Hogsmeade weekends.  (Yes, I just finished checking GoF for that.)

*

Of course, if the Sorting was the final trial undergone by candidates, we have to call an epic fail concerning Tom Riddle.  Should not the hat have seen that Tom was unsafe to admit and teach?

There are several possible solutions to that problem.

The simplest, of course, is that the security arrangements regarding admitting students to Hogwarts never did include giving a telepathic hat authority to reject candidates as unsuitable (or to recommend rejection).  The hat only, ever, was allowed to sort a candidate into one of the four houses of Hogwarts, never to proclaim, “None of the above.  Get thee hence, churl!”

(But I’m sorry—would even Helga Hvalpuf, that indomitably optimistic believer than any child, however barbaric its background and rearing, could accept civilization and knowledge, given the chance—have accepted an empathy-free boyling as her disciple in the Dark Arts?)

However, there are other possibilities.  Since the main danger against which the Founders probably sought to guard (with respect to incoming students, anyway) was sympathy for a Muggle pogrom, the hat may have been suspicious only of vehemently pro-Muggle and/or anti-magical sentiments.  Whatever his faults of mind and however they would show up to an inanimate object’s scrutiny, Tom Riddle would certainly present as utterly clear of pro-Muggle leanings.  Further, the first thing Albus taught Tom was that if he wanted to succeed in the WW, Tom needed to disguise his proclivities.  If the Sorting Ceremony were done alphabetically, as in Harry’s time, Tommy would have had quite some time to realize that the hat was telepathic, and to come up with a cloak of virtuously ambitious feelings to present to it.  He’s almost certainly a natural Occlumens.

And in truth, Tom’s aspirations on entering Hogwarts did not include destroying pureblood culture and most of the old families by promoting their delusions of pureblood superiority.  That came later.   Fourth year, perhaps, if that’s when he traced the name “Marvolo,” or maybe only after he actually met his surviving Wizarding family.

Come to that, if a part-goblin halfbreed—such as Filius is hypothesized to be—were presented as a potential student, would the hat have vetted said candidate for undue sympathy for hir goblin forebears, lest s/he open the gates of Hogwarts to the next goblin insurrection?  Was Hagrid sniffed for sympathy to giants?

A third option might be that the hat did initially have the authority to issue recommendations to exclude students, only to have been stripped of that power later.  When policies changed so that the accepted solution to the security problem posed by Muggleborns was to recruit them all and try to co-opt them. 

Fourth, the celerity of the Sorting in some cases indicates that the hat’s scrutiny was superficial if the house choice were immediately apparent.  But then, the Hat is inanimate.  Just because it passes the Turing test with Harry does not mean it would with an adult trying to converse with it. 

It might have been running mechanically through a relatively simple decision tree that went:  overwhelming desire for a specific house?  Done.  (Harry, remember, was praying, not “Gryffindor!” but “Not Slytherin!”—a decision between houses still had to be made in his case.)  No?  Then, a strong desire to be brave, smart, work hard to fit in, prove oneself best?  Done! No?  Not one of the above characteristics stands out clearly above the others?  Only then, dig a little deeper, to see which of several impulses most governed the student….

In which case, it might or might not have done a first automatic check for Muggle sympathies (or anti-WW ones).  But it could hardly have been programmed to look for every possible sign that a child might be a bad ‘un—how could it?  And it may not have been programmed to track the fates of the candidates who’d passed under its scrutiny and to learn from its millennium of experience.

Or, again, it might never have been programmed to look for danger at all (which seems unlikely, since it was the Founders’ solution to how to choose candidates to be inducted into their houses), or that programming might have been taken out later.

If the hat were at all a sophisticated artifact, though, you’d have expected it to have noticed something about Tom Riddle.  At least enough to induce it to warn the headmaster to watch this one carefully….  Or rather, to warn the student’s head of house.  The headmaster is an administrator, responsible for no student directly.  Who knows when that post was even invented?  The hat was made by the four heads of houses; it has always been they who stood responsible for teaching, guiding, and guarding individual students. 

So it’s Tom’s head of house whom the hat should have warned. 

And perhaps it did.

Perhaps it did, and Tom’s head of house pooh-poohed the warning.  Such a fine, talented, eager to learn, and above all, respectful and polite, orphan.  A model student, what can you be thinking, hat?  That would certainly be reason for shame later, when Tom did finally demonstrate that the hat had been right to urge keeping a wary eye on him.  It would be mortifying to have to admit that an item of clothing is a better judge of character than oneself. 


Or, perhaps it did.  And Tom’s head of house assured the hat that he had already independently formed the intention of watching over this orphan with especial care. 

Perhaps, even, the hat was disturbed by what it saw in Tom’s mind and memories, and it decided to accept the boy for Slytherin in part because that head of house had already met Riddle, knew all about his disquieting activities and inclinations, and had given his personal approval to Tom’s attendance.  The hat might have assumed that the head of Slytherin, forewarned, could be trusted to monitor and guide the child. 

Especially if the hat knew that this particular head of Slytherin had himself come to grief at a young age through allowing his unbridled ambition to overwhelm his care for others, had subsequently done penance by refusing positions of power, and had returned to Hogwarts, the proverbially sadder and wiser man, to devote himself to guiding the young to make better choices than his.

Yes, I know.  Slughorn was the former head of Slytherin house.   We all know that.

But we don’t know exactly when. 

And after all, in HBP when Albus offered Horace the Potions position, he did not offer him the headship of Slytherin.   Because someone else had tenure in that position.  So instead, Horace devoted his free time to running a sort of brokering service, a little Club, whose purpose was to introduce selected wizards of influence and talent to each other. 

A club he seemed to have been running in Tom Riddle’s time.

There might be a very good reason indeed for Albus Dumbledore in later years to have ensured that his true House became impossible to determine.

Comments

Perfect Slytherin

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Albus is such a perfect Slytherin that, if he indeed was a Gryffindor, he had to have been Sorted there at his own insistence. A cunning, ambitious Slytherin can get away with a lot if he’s publicly identified as a brave, bold Gryffindor. My story “Sal’s Hat” has been halted for a considerable time because I haven’t been able to write eleven-year-old Albus’s conversation with Salazar’s yarmulke when it, unlike Godric’s hat, refuses to accede to his request.

The idea of Albus as Head of Slytherin House, however, is one that has never crossed my mind. I like it a lot, but I’m not sure that it works. I could easily believe Albus could contrive to conceal the fact that he was a Slytherin student in the 1890s, but a position as Head of Slytherin House in the 1940s would be too widely known by too many people still alive and active in the wizarding world. Successfully suppressing that knowledge would be a bit of a stretch, even for Albus. How could it have been left out of Rita’s book? Even with Obliviation and blackmail, there would be far too many written records that could not be wiped out or forged.

Regarding pre-Express travel to Hogwarts: in Aurette’s Regency-era AU story “Of Muggles and Magic,” the students fly in Thestral carriages from just outside the Leaky Cauldron. In their second year, Harry and Ron are locked in the men’s room by Dobby until after the carriages leave, and fly to Hogwarts in Arthur’s dubiously-legal coach-a-bower pulled by ghost horses. It’s one of Aurette’s best, which is saying something. I heartily recommend it.

Re: Perfect Slytherin

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Fidelius. In which Albus was an expert, and didn't teach others nearly all he knew. Now that we know that one can be one's own Secret-Keeper....

What did Filius say? "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"

In other words, you could look right at the kept Secret and never see it. Never. No matter what your senses tried to tell you, you could not see.

If Albus's House was the Kept Secret, no one could see or remember any evidence that contradicted it.

All he'd have to do in addition is modify the Hogwarts records (surely easy enough for a headmaster to do) and Horace's memories, to match the new information that Horace had been appointed Head of Slytherin in year X, not in 1957. And anyone who thought s/he remembered otherwise would founder in confusion trying to come up with who else could have been head of house. When there were no other Slytherin teachers at Hogwarts at that time, everyone knows that.

Head of House is a Hogwarts internal matter; most of the records would have been under Albus's control for 30 years.

Given how remote and negligent Albus is in canon, even with his supposed "favorite" Harry, Albus is unlikely to have had to remove many alumni memories of Albus acting more like head of house than Horace.... And any Slytherin who remembered receiving Horace's specific help and attention as a Slug Club member, could in retrospect be encouraged to parse that as house partiality.

You know, now that I think of it, the Fidelius must be really, REALLY Dark Magic.

Powered by human sacrifice, or the offer thereof. Right. And broken if (and only if) the sacrifice withdraws hir consent to die to keep the secret.

Hmph!

Re: Ravenclaw Manque

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

As to Albus's sorting... it's totally obvious he should have accepted the Hat (or yarmulke's) recommendation and gone to his heart's home--well, his head's home--of Ravenclaw. He'd have done absolutely no harm to anyone continuing on getting more and mroe academic awards.

But no, he HAD to insist on Slytherin, to which he was ill-suited(and which he came to blame for his own failings). Really, can you imagine Phineas or Severus hesitating to act on what they knew because they were AWAITING EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT?

Totally a Ravenclaw weakness, and so Ravenclaws ought never to attempt Slytherin schemes. It can only come back to bite them! Look at poor Xeno!

My theory was, Albus respected his Slytherin mother for holding his family together after their great tragedy,and insisted on the house in her honor. But you could easily write it that Albus mistook (then and always) the nature of ambition, just as he did courage...

So go WRITE, already, Jana! (Not but what my own effort to write young Albus was criticized--so, do better.)

Re: Perfect Slytherin

[oryx_leucoryx]

As Terri says, no he is not a perfect Slytherin, but he has some appreciation of Slytherin methods. He does have a bit of 'don't just do something, stand there' to his typical action plan.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

I love it! A great in world explanation for the train. The journey is a trial.

the journey is a trial

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

... watered down by the Victorians for children.

I know. Once you see it, it's obvious, isn't it!

And, you know, that really does account for Rowling writing it that way. She's got a great subconscious, and a good knowledge of folklore. The hero is supposed to undergo an ordeal to purify him and prove him worthy.

It's... it reminds me of Austen's spoof of Gothic romances, Northanger Abbery. Her heroine, Catherine Morland, is not a Gothic heroine, but a real girl--originally noisy, dirty, lazy, but never from spite. Catherine ;ater encounters all of the trials of Gothic heroines--only transposed onto real-life situations and trials. She's tempted from the path of virtue--to drive out to a Castle with John, instead of keeping her appointment to walk with Eleanor. She's abducted, by cunning and then bu violence--when she virtuously decided to keep her appointment, and John, her supposed friend, and even her brother all work on her to bring her to a position where her honor might be ruined.... Eventually, Catherine finds herself in a real Abbey, where her misjudgmentd put her in danger--but not in the Gothic dangers she fears.

The journey is the Victorian kiddies-lit lite version of trial by ordeal.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Many good ideas.

What do you think happens to kids who live right there in Hogsmeade? There should be some, if it is a village in the normal sense. Are they automatically vetted thanks to having been raised in a wizarding-only society, and already having access to the village? Or are there no families with children there? Is Hogsmeade a singles only village?

If Hogsmeade is like a normal village, with all sorts of families, I wonder if it is attractive to Muggle-borns who want to bypass some of the wizarding security?

You are right that there must be no mention of the Sorting Hat in obvious places such as Hogwarts a History, I think at least Sirius expected to be able to influence his Sorting (and he probably expected to be among the first few to be Sorted) - which is why he wanted to know James' preference. I think at least some families (especially Slytherins) do pass at least some information about the Sorting to their children.

BTW the headquarters for one of the goblin rebellions were in Hogsmeade. Not sure how that works.

Interesting ideas regarding Albus. Yes, must have been Fidelius, because even Tom doesn't use it to needle Albus (though they did have some past debates about love vs Dark Arts or something along those lines - I wonder if that came up when Tom was having his Career Advice talk?).

Hogsmeade

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I think we'd have to say "Alrady vetted."

But, you know, the fact is we never once see a child in Hogsmeade. Not one. You'd have expected to see a herd running around playing pickup Quidditch, or gawking after the big kids on the Hogwarts weekends, or a baby's crying heard through a window, but.. no. Not one, ever. Nor do we ever hear of any students claiming to have been raised there.

So maybe it's a retirement community, really...

(But who the hell would set up a refuge and not bring in the kids?)

The goblins... well, after all, Hogsmeade was originally created as a refuge for magicals against Muggles, right?

Oh my god, the thought of Albus doing Tom's Career Advice talk--the mind explodes. In my 'verse, it would be post-blackmail, too!

Of course, that Albus might have been Head of Slytherin was rather a post-script--the rest of the essay works without. Still, it's a fascinating one....

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Just chiming in to say I love this essay! Of course the journey to Hogwarts is a (watered-down) ordeal! And Albus as a Slytherin does make sense. The only thing I don't like about the concept is that it supports the idea that Slytherin = evil. But really, the way that house is presented is quite inconsistent. Although I concede that ambition can lead to evil, malice, etc, it doesn't have to. Every human virtue has its downside. What gets me is the whole ambition = pureblood thing. Why? Wouldn't you think that, if it's really the house of ambition, Slytherin would be jam packed full of half-bloods like Severus and Muggleborns like Hermione?

Sorting Hat Songs

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

You know, re-reading the Sorting Hat Songs--which we hear in books 1, 4, and 5--Ravenclaw and Gryffindor are presented consistently; Hufflepuff and Slytherin are both presented differently in book 5 than they were before. In the first two songs, Hufflepuff CHOOSES those who are "just & loyal... true.. unafraid of toil" and then "hard workers". In the first two songs, Slytherin chooses "cunning folk who use any means to achieve their ends" and "those of great ambition."

But in the last song, Helga's offering to 'take the rest and teach them what I know." While all of a sudden Slytherin wants those "whose ancestry is purest."

So I think Jo may have been retrofitting the house characteristics--Hufflepuffs duffers, oh wait hard workers who are loyal and just aren't duffers, oops, better change the song to have Helga teaching the rejects.... And Slytherin is Evil, because Ambition is Evil, only Evil = Pureblood Supremacism in my world, therefore Slytherin is and has always been the house of Purebloods, (except for Riddle and Snape, of course) even though those born at the top don't need to strive to reach the top....

Or something.

Although, I suppose, maybe the ambition of the the evil Slytherin Purebloods is "using any means to achieve their end" of keeping down the Muggleborns, while nice Purebloods like the Weasleys and the Potters accept their privileged postion without striving consciously to perpetuate it. Given the analogies to racism, that works rather well. I'm not Pureblood Supremacist; I just prefer to offer job openings to people like me, other things being equal. And am perfectly happy to accept a position a Muggleborn could much better fill--*cough* Arthur. But a truly competent Muggleborn would be perfectly acceptable as an assistant....

[oryx_leucoryx]

The UK has had some form of daylights saving time since 1916, and moved almost entirely away from GMT around 1959. It seems the wizards have caught up to the system by 1991 because Harry doesn't find himself surprisingly an hour early for the train. I'm wondering if there was a time when this sort of thing happened - that Muggle-raised children were an hour early.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Also, Britain has also been using the Julian calendar since the Roman ages and didn't switch to the Gregorian calendar when the Catholic countries did in 1582, England finally relented in 1752, requiring an 11-day "bounce" to catch up with the other countries in "real time" (Russia and the other Eastern Orthodox countries didn't change their calendars until the 20th century, hence the "October Revolution" later on being celebrated on November 7th instead); tl;dr I wouldn't be surprised that e wizards' September 1st is different from ours, since the Separation took place in the year of the Glorious Revolution and not after 1752.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Neville also had a long time with the Hat. Rowling now claims it was because of his futile attempt to be Sorted into Hufflepuff (overridden by Gryffindor's Hat), but I'd love to see your take on it.

Maybe the Hat isn't so objective. Maybe its first question is 'do I want this one for *my* House?'

[oryx_leucoryx]

I don't think Hogwarts used thestrals before they had the train. swythyv showed canon evidence that the thestal herd is from after Hagrid became assistant-groundskeeper. (Possibly brought over by the victorious Albus in 1945). Maybe they had more hippogryfs back then. (I think most large magical creatures must be close to extinction outside of special reserves these days.)

Thestrals

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Just reread OotP 21, and Hagrid says a), he's the only one training Thestrals in Britain, b) that the herd was built up from an original complement of one male, five females, and c)that his own favorite was the first one born in the Forbidden Forest. Now if we only knew what their lifespan was, or reproductive cycle, we'd know something....

Couple of options. If they're the only TRAINED herd in BRITAIN, Thestrals might have been Durmstang's or Beauxbaton's traditional mode of travel, and the original breeding herd presented to the Hogwarts Transfigurations Master in gratitude for defeating Grindelwald.....

On the other hand, if like the Basilisk they are effectively immortal, the Thestral herd might date back to the Founders (or nearly so), Tenebrus still be the first born/hatched on Hogwarts grounds, and Hagrid merely the first to TRAIN them. To pull carriages along a road. Which, when you think of it, has got to be as unnatural for them as training a bumblebee or hummingbird to do so.

Cult Indoctrination

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

This is your usual ingenious analysis of Rowling's world that's so much better than the original, it makes me wish you had written the series instead. An added bonus is that you would have made Snape a more obviously heroic character. : )

Regarding your idea that the approach to Hogwarts was initially an ordeal designed to screen out the unworthy, you make a very persuasive case, and you may be right. But when I was reading your analysis, what occurred to me was not "ordeal" but "cult indoctrination."

Consider these similarities:

1) Candidates are forcibly (because they have no choice) taken out of their normal environment and placed in a new one.
2) They have to change from their everyday clothes into a new uniform.
3) They have to make a long, tedious, tiring journey to reach their destination.
4) They are only allowed to associate with their own kind during the trip.
5) They are kept hungry, which muddles--or should I say, muggles--their thinking and weakens their resistance. What food they’re allowed to eat is junk food, which doesn’t help their thought processes much. (BTW, I read a book recently that said mug is an ancient British word for male slave, Old English, Anglo-Saxon, or Celtic, I can't remember which.)
6) When they get where they're going, it's dark, which disorients them further.
7) As you described so well, they're then forced to, in effect, run an obstacle course to reach the school.
8) They finish up with a forced, secret test that they believe will involve pain, fear, humiliation, or all three. It must be bad because nobody talks about it.
9) After they join this group, they are never allowed to even mention it to outsiders, who are all too inferior to understand or deserve to be in on the secret anyway. Keeping secrets about the cult is the sine qua non of cult membership.

Yep. That's cult brainwashing all the way. The techniques are classic.

Re: Cult Indoctrination

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Erk. You're right. And it works, as we talked about when we talked about all those Muggleborns in DH sitting on the street in Diagon begging for handouts from Death Eaters who might as easily kill as help them, rather than just turning around and rejoining the Muggle world! We don't know of one person who refuses to drink the Kool-Aid once indoctrinated....

The "Rehabilitation" of Tom Riddle

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Further, the first thing Albus taught Tom was that if he wanted to succeed in the WW, Tom needed to disguise his proclivities.

Yeah, why would he do that? You're assuming that, if Albus recognized how dangerous Tom was, that Albus wanted to train Tom out of his badness. But what if he didn't?

When Tom came to Hogwarts in 1937, WW II had not yet started, and Albus's ex-flame Gellert had not begun his campaign to take over Europe. There were still plenty of people alive who either remembered or must have heard about the plans of Albus and Gellert to subjugate the muggles and take over the world for wizardkind. That kind of ultra-juicy gossip can never be kept secret, particularly (1) in a small, closed community, (2) when one of the people involved is the alleged superstar of his generation, and (3) when that person has a position of authority at one of the society’s most important institutions. Even 40 years later, people would still quite reasonably be suspicious of Albus's insistence that he had changed, he didn't want power, he was just interested in doing good, etc. So how could he prove what he was claiming about himself?

Answer: By setting up and defeating a somebody who was just like he once was: a ruthless, tyrannical, racist, wizard dictator.

This explanation fits all the facts. Consider:

1) It answers your questions about the Sorting Hat. Even if the hat had tried to warn that Tom was dangerous, it would have been ignored and/or overridden by Albus, He's a very slick con artist and could have persuaded anyone who had good sense was concerned about Tom that the boy's violent and predatory tendencies were just the result of corruption and mistreatment by those muggles who didn't understand and appreciate him. A few years in the more nurturing wizarding environment would cure all that. And since Tom was so obviously talented, it would be a real shame to lose that talent by binding his magic and casting him out of their society. This song and dance also accorded with the "noble, loving, forgiving" persona Albus was trying to establish for himself.
2) It explains why this violent boy was allowed the training he needed to maximize his dangerousness.
3) It fits with Albus’s being a narcissistic psychopath because it’s self-serving, dishonest, and manipulative.

Which brings me to another point: Several people have said Albus was most likely a Slytherin because he’s so manipulative. In fact, inordinate manipulativeness is one of the hallmarks of psychopathy. According to Robert Hare, PhD, the world’s foremost expert on psychopaths, it is impossible for a non-psychopath to out-manipulate a psychopath. It doesn’t matter how intelligent, well-educated, or experienced in dealing with these scum the normal person is. If the psychopath wants to manipulate you, they will, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Albus’s inordinate manipulativeness doesn’t make him a Slytherin. It just makes him a psychopath. He would be like that no matter what house he belonged to.

Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom Riddle

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

You know, before I read DH for the first time I regarded Albus Dumbledore more or less as Harry did: as the wise, benevolent, utterly-to-be-trusted mentor figure. Even after my first reading of DH, I mistrusted his judgment sometimes and thought him ruthless. My first fictions, even, he mentored Sev. But the more deeply I considered his actions, and his probable motivations...

It's like falling off a cliff. You fall, and are terrified, and bang about, and then by some miracle you're at the bottom, battered but alive. And you stagger to your feet, only you're on another cliff-edge and are falling again.... Every time you think you MUST have hit bottom, there's an even worse interpretation of what Twinkles might have been up to.

I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.

But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous.

Now to the next question: why didn't that Hat catch ALBUS? Because, in effect, you've just pushed the problem back a generation.

Or was there nothing to catch, back when Albus was Sorted? I've been re-reading Jodel's foundation essays, and hir theory of Dark Arts Dementia. We know Albus is a Dark Arts expert, and he is EXACTLY the sort of person who'd be quite sure he could handle the Dark Arts without being damaged by them. Lesser people, yes, might have their perceptions and empathy scrambled, but not he. Why, he later hid the Horcrux books from the Restricted Section IN HIS OWN OFFICE (one suspects that there are books which, like the locket, might be unwholesome to be around for long). Maybe he was fine at eleven, but just got in a little too much practice on his sub-specialty over his summer vacations...? Either those long years he was a teacher, or even back when he was a student?

Ouch--Jodel also posits that the Dark Arts are the source and inspiration of most important magical invention, and Albus was early famous for, what? His... creativity. (His OTP Gellert, of course, was notorious for HIS--that's what he was expelled from Durmstrang for, experiments.) And during Albus's student holidays, while Aberforth and Kendra spent most of their time and attention on Ariana, there was Albus, "always up in his bedroom when he was home, reading his books and counting his prizes, keeping up with his correspondance with 'the most notable magical names of the day.'" Only, y'know, maybe not just reading. Or writing.

(In fact--wanting to perform illicit experiments would be a very good reason TO come home for the optional holidays. Otherwise why not be like Hermione and claim he needs to stay and study where he has access to the school library?)

We always knew there was an element of projection in his treatment of Severus--maybe that's the reason he claimed to be afraid to let Severus near the Dark Arts. Twinkle, twinkle.

Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom Riddle

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Er. Here's another thought for you.

Sending a baby to be raised for a decade with no parental affection or any positive attention is a recipe for getting back a child so starved for approval and affection he'll latch on with unshakable loyalty to the first person who shows him any, yes?

Or, it's a recipe for producing a psychopath.

Producing the next generation Dark Lord (perhaps after killing this one) for Albus to stand up against as "The Only One He Ever Feared," and continuing the WW's State of Emergency.

What is it Bujold's Cavilo said? Not one path to victory, but ensuring that ALL paths lead to one's victory?

[sunnyskywalker]

Oh, I like this very much! It would explain so much. Including why Hagrid has a grand title like "Keeper of the Keys" when that doesn't seem to matter to anything--back in days when witches or wizards might be as likely to be taught by their local hedge witch or a private tutor rather than attending Hogwarts, or might not start their educations until later in life, the power to bar Hogwarts to anyone who hadn't specifically been allowed entry would be a big deal. Now that everyone or nearly everyone attends starting at age 11, just about every magical human in Britain can get onto the grounds by the time they hit puberty and the significance of the position is obscured.

Another thought: isn't Platform 9 3/4 described as having some gusts of steam from the train? Now, I doubt that the train actually runs like a Muggle steam engine, so is all that steam just for show, or a by-product of some magical combustion process? It occurs to me to wonder whether the potion in that Gringotts waterfall that washes away magical concealment can be vaporized. (Maybe it counteracts Polyjuice, which "counts" as surface transformation, but not Metamorphmagus or Animagus, which are alternate but "true forms" of the person? No wonder Animagi are required to register if so.)

Possibly there was some grumbling about the antiquated system back before VoldWar I and talk of modifying it, but then a few DE attempts (or apparent ones, anyway) to sneak onto the train disguised as current students put a stop to all that.

Oh! Another thought. We wondered why Dumbledore seemed so very certain that the boat in the cave was (a) something Voldemort added, and (b) wouldn't register a child's magic. Well, we never see any adults in the Hogwarts boats but Hagrid, do we? He's both an unqualified wizard (ie legally permanently a child in some ways) and the Keeper of the Keys, and I'm not sure which one is more crucial in this case. Anyway, maybe one of the protections around Hogwarts is that the boats spit any adults into the lake for the Giant Squid to deal with. Only children and Hagrid can ride in them safely. Dumbledore recognizes the boat in the cave as being magically based on the Hogwarts boats, or maybe even one of them stolen and modified for Voldemort's purposes (to let the adult pass rather than being spat into the lake--but with the "kids don't count" charm untouched).

[oryx_leucoryx]

Interesting, and quite brilliant.

Before Hagrid became Keeper of the Keys, who led the kids in the boats? Perhaps the Keeper gets special magical permission to ride the boats, because before Hagrid I think the Keepers were adults.

Yes, the entire fleet of boats allows at most one adult wizard. And Tom's boat works the same way.

[sunnyskywalker]

As for the Hat, well, obviously it doesn't have a warning system for children with a bent for cruelty, or half the student population would never have gotten in. Just wanting to murder your fellow students' pets or bully them mercilessly isn't something the WW has ever seemed to see as a serious problem, has it? Or stealing, as we know from Luna's dormmates' example. So long as you don't put it on thinking "I'm going to destroy Hogwarts from within," which little Tom wasn't doing, the Hat probably doesn't register a problem. It probably isn't that smart. And really, it was designed in the days when you probably had to be invited into Hogwarts by someone who already knew you, rather than every magical kid getting a mass-produced invitation, so why would they program the Hat that way? Any students who made it into the Great Hall had presumably already been at least partially vetted. They still had to prove themselves for a year, but they weren't strangers.

At least partially vetted--AARGH!

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

And they still ARE!

Anyone getting in who's not a child of an established witch/wizard GETS A HOME VISIT before they are admitted.

In fact, before they receive their invitation.

Headdesk, headdesk, headdeask.

Admitting Tom really was Albus's fault entirely.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

A further thought has occurred to me about Slytherin Dumbledore.

On another thread here on DTCL I said that Gilderoy Lockhart should be a Gryffindor despite the fact that we see him behaving like a coward in canon. The Sorting Hat did not Sort adult Lockhart. It Sorted Gilderoy at eleven, and I can easily believe that little Gildy saw himself as a great adventurer, bravely fighting monsters. It wasn't until he actually tried monster-fighting as an adult that he discovered he just didn't have what it takes to do the job. Courage alone does not a hero make; one also needs competence.

We're making a mistake judging Albus's House by his behavior as an adult. Eleven-year-old Albus may have been brimming with ambition to rule the wizarding world. But his traumatic experience with Gellert and his sister's death crushed that out of him, and he deliberately turned himself into a passive Ravenclaw. He tells us so himself.

But the Hat knows nothing of that. The Hat knows and Sorts only children of eleven. What happens in later years is not its business.

Gryffie Courage

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

For that matter - Peter isn't exactly revered for his bravery either/ Even tho' I think it did take quite a bit of bravery to cut off one's own finger (or hand) as well as to continue to associate with the Marauders even once he began betraying the Order.

However, I'm not positive the Hat sorts based necessarily on existing qualities, but also possibly on what qualities the student most admires/covets.

[oryx_leucoryx]

The train carries (almost?) all the students on September 1st and at the end of the year. And in December and January (very few students stay for Christmas when there is no Yule Ball). And some students back and forth in spring.

What happens to it (and its minimal staff) the rest of the year? When Remus leaves the school a few weeks early he takes a carriage from the castle. Maybe he is too weak to walk to Hogsmeade and Apparate from there, or perhaps Rowling hadn't decided yet to make Apparition skills commonplace - but isn't the implication that he was planning on taking the train to London? (All alone) And in HBP when Harry is paralyzed on the train, doesn't Draco expect him to end up in London again? What is the point of having the train running back and forth when other, more effective, means of transportation are available?

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

I was flattered (and flailing) that my rather ranty comment had been used as a basis by terri_testing to turn into this wonderfully deep and insightful essay, but your comment here really deepened the Rabbit Hole even further. @terri suggested it to be a rite of ordeal (albeit watered-down), but as you poked even more holes into the system than I previously had, perhaps we'll just have to chalk it up to plain stupidity of the world?