Random thoughts on DH
Jan. 4th, 2017 12:50 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockHello, all! Nice to meet you. This is my first post, so please be nice to me.
The following is a list of my major issues with DH:
Albus Dumbledore's backstory. Don't get me wrong, it was awesome and heart-wrenching and thoughtfully provided us with a canon slash couple, but I'm still trying to figure out how it was relevant to the plot. As it is, Dumbledore's backstory serves no other purpose than assuring the reader that yes, Dumbledore has flaws.
Too little, too late, JKR. Permit me to quote Dan Hemmens:
"And it's shit like this that makes me really hate JKR's attempt to make Dumbledore into a "complex" character in this book. You simply can't have it both ways. Either he's a real human person who makes mistakes, or he's the infallible plot god who is so wise, so possessed of absolute foresight, that he manages to predict correctly that Ron will fall under the influence of the Locket Horcrux, leave the quest, want to return, and be unable to do so because Harry and Hermione are travelling the country in a magically protected tent.
Seriously, if the guy is smart enough to do that, why the hell wasn't he smart enough to - say - track down Voldemort's Horcruxes during the ten years in which he was incorporeal, or to twig much sooner that Grindelwald was probably evil, or to not get horribly cursed trying to use the Resurrection Stone (of which more later).
Dumbledore is infallible when he needs to do something amazing to advance the plot, but All Too Human when Rowling wants to impress us with how layered and complex her characters are."
(By the way, if you haven't read Dan's chapter-by-chapter review of DH, you should. It's worth a read. Go ahead, check it out. I'll wait.)
Severus Snape's backstory. Yes, JKR, we know Snape's main flaw is his inability to let go of the past. You didn't need to spend an entire chapter reminding us of that.
More seriously, Snape's backstory is, in a way, Dumbledore's backstory in reverse. Severus was Good All Along, because he loved Lily. I have several problems with this.
First of all, it detracted from Snape's character. You can't have a morally-ambiguous character, spontaneously decide he's been a good guy the whole time, and tack on a reveal at the last minute. You just can't. Either keep him morally ambiguous, or plan to reveal his true allegiance from the start. That way, you can foreshadow the reveal, your character will retain his complexity and credibility, and your readers won't feel cheated.
Second, Severus did not love Lily. He was infatuated and later obsessed with her. Yet we're supposed to believe this is love, the ultimate difference between good and evil in HP-verse. Voldemort is evil because of his inability to understand love. Harry is good because he loves others. You get the picture. As the many people opposed to Twilight and Fifty Shades will tell you, infatuation and obsession are not love. Idealizing someone is not love. Having a crush on your best friend is one thing. Not getting over that crush, even after she stopped being friends with you, even after you left school, even after she married someone else, even after she died, is another. And it's not healthy. It doesn't make Snape look brave or noble, just pathetic. Becoming Dumbledore's spy against Voldemort was certainly brave and noble; I just wish it had been for a less stupid reason.
The third problem has less to do with Snape himself and more to do with Dumbledore. Throughout the books, Dumbledore's main flaw appeared to be, in Harry's words, his "tendency to trust people in spite of overwhelming evidence that they did not deserve it." This was seemingly reinforced at the end of HBP, when Snape killed Dumbledore. Is this true? Maybe it was, when Albus closed his eyes to Gellert's true nature, resulting in Ariana's death and Albus's estrangement from Aberforth. (If Albus was indeed telling Harry the truth about pretending not to know what Gellert was. We only have his word for it, after all. But that's a discussion for another time.) Maybe it was, when Albus allowed Tom to come to Hogwarts. But by the end of DH, it wasn't. Snape was working for Dumbledore all along, so Dumbledore was never wrong about him. I believe this is what Limyaael calls flaw-scrubbing.
If you need any more proof that Albus Dumbledore suffers from Author's Darling syndrome, this is it.
Harry's blind obedience. A lot of people criticize DH!Harry as being passive, and they are right. What bothers me is why. The plot requires Harry to obey Dumbledore's orders without question, so that's what he does. Harry is no longer a protagonist. He is a marionette dancing on the strings of Plot.
Poor Harry.
It would have been wonderful if Harry, instead of remaining "Dumbledore's man through and through," took a third option and found a way to defeat Voldemort on his own terms. He would have ended the series as his own man, rather than Dumbledore's servant. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. But hey, that's what AUs are for, right?
Ron's resentment issues were never fully explored. I felt they should have been. Ron suffers from a massive inferiority complex, and it's not hard to see why. He's not famous like Harry or amazingly intelligent like Hermione (though I tend to place Ron in the Brilliant, but Lazy category), he's obviously his mother's least favorite (not that Mrs. Weasley doesn't love Ron--she does, very much!--but she treats Harry better than she treats him!), and he never gets a chance to shine. Most of the fandom already hates him, and he's frequently treated horribly in fanfic--his author doesn't need to join in. Poor Ron. He deserved better, or at least a closer look at his character.
The titular Deathly Hallows themselves. For all the emphasis placed on love in the previous books, especially in HBP, Harry defeating Voldemort with three magical objects, two of which were never mentioned before, kind of cheapens that, doesn't it?
The action, or lack thereof. On the one hand, we have Harry sitting around in a tent doing nothing. On the other hand, we have Neville leading a rebellion at Hogwarts. Which one sounds more interesting, and which one did we actually get to see?
Yeah. I thought so, too.
The offscreen deaths of Lupin and Tonks. How come Fred and Dobby get to die onscreen, but the last Marauder and his wife don't? It just bugs me.
The anticlimactic Final Showdown between Harry and Voldemort. No further comment needed.
The tone. I loathe OOTP with every fiber of my being, but even that book didn't make me feel depressed just reading it.
In summary? DH is a hot mess. But you didn't need me to tell you that.
*sits back and waits for the flames*
The following is a list of my major issues with DH:
Albus Dumbledore's backstory. Don't get me wrong, it was awesome and heart-wrenching and thoughtfully provided us with a canon slash couple, but I'm still trying to figure out how it was relevant to the plot. As it is, Dumbledore's backstory serves no other purpose than assuring the reader that yes, Dumbledore has flaws.
Too little, too late, JKR. Permit me to quote Dan Hemmens:
"And it's shit like this that makes me really hate JKR's attempt to make Dumbledore into a "complex" character in this book. You simply can't have it both ways. Either he's a real human person who makes mistakes, or he's the infallible plot god who is so wise, so possessed of absolute foresight, that he manages to predict correctly that Ron will fall under the influence of the Locket Horcrux, leave the quest, want to return, and be unable to do so because Harry and Hermione are travelling the country in a magically protected tent.
Seriously, if the guy is smart enough to do that, why the hell wasn't he smart enough to - say - track down Voldemort's Horcruxes during the ten years in which he was incorporeal, or to twig much sooner that Grindelwald was probably evil, or to not get horribly cursed trying to use the Resurrection Stone (of which more later).
Dumbledore is infallible when he needs to do something amazing to advance the plot, but All Too Human when Rowling wants to impress us with how layered and complex her characters are."
(By the way, if you haven't read Dan's chapter-by-chapter review of DH, you should. It's worth a read. Go ahead, check it out. I'll wait.)
Severus Snape's backstory. Yes, JKR, we know Snape's main flaw is his inability to let go of the past. You didn't need to spend an entire chapter reminding us of that.
More seriously, Snape's backstory is, in a way, Dumbledore's backstory in reverse. Severus was Good All Along, because he loved Lily. I have several problems with this.
First of all, it detracted from Snape's character. You can't have a morally-ambiguous character, spontaneously decide he's been a good guy the whole time, and tack on a reveal at the last minute. You just can't. Either keep him morally ambiguous, or plan to reveal his true allegiance from the start. That way, you can foreshadow the reveal, your character will retain his complexity and credibility, and your readers won't feel cheated.
Second, Severus did not love Lily. He was infatuated and later obsessed with her. Yet we're supposed to believe this is love, the ultimate difference between good and evil in HP-verse. Voldemort is evil because of his inability to understand love. Harry is good because he loves others. You get the picture. As the many people opposed to Twilight and Fifty Shades will tell you, infatuation and obsession are not love. Idealizing someone is not love. Having a crush on your best friend is one thing. Not getting over that crush, even after she stopped being friends with you, even after you left school, even after she married someone else, even after she died, is another. And it's not healthy. It doesn't make Snape look brave or noble, just pathetic. Becoming Dumbledore's spy against Voldemort was certainly brave and noble; I just wish it had been for a less stupid reason.
The third problem has less to do with Snape himself and more to do with Dumbledore. Throughout the books, Dumbledore's main flaw appeared to be, in Harry's words, his "tendency to trust people in spite of overwhelming evidence that they did not deserve it." This was seemingly reinforced at the end of HBP, when Snape killed Dumbledore. Is this true? Maybe it was, when Albus closed his eyes to Gellert's true nature, resulting in Ariana's death and Albus's estrangement from Aberforth. (If Albus was indeed telling Harry the truth about pretending not to know what Gellert was. We only have his word for it, after all. But that's a discussion for another time.) Maybe it was, when Albus allowed Tom to come to Hogwarts. But by the end of DH, it wasn't. Snape was working for Dumbledore all along, so Dumbledore was never wrong about him. I believe this is what Limyaael calls flaw-scrubbing.
If you need any more proof that Albus Dumbledore suffers from Author's Darling syndrome, this is it.
Harry's blind obedience. A lot of people criticize DH!Harry as being passive, and they are right. What bothers me is why. The plot requires Harry to obey Dumbledore's orders without question, so that's what he does. Harry is no longer a protagonist. He is a marionette dancing on the strings of Plot.
Poor Harry.
It would have been wonderful if Harry, instead of remaining "Dumbledore's man through and through," took a third option and found a way to defeat Voldemort on his own terms. He would have ended the series as his own man, rather than Dumbledore's servant. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. But hey, that's what AUs are for, right?
Ron's resentment issues were never fully explored. I felt they should have been. Ron suffers from a massive inferiority complex, and it's not hard to see why. He's not famous like Harry or amazingly intelligent like Hermione (though I tend to place Ron in the Brilliant, but Lazy category), he's obviously his mother's least favorite (not that Mrs. Weasley doesn't love Ron--she does, very much!--but she treats Harry better than she treats him!), and he never gets a chance to shine. Most of the fandom already hates him, and he's frequently treated horribly in fanfic--his author doesn't need to join in. Poor Ron. He deserved better, or at least a closer look at his character.
The titular Deathly Hallows themselves. For all the emphasis placed on love in the previous books, especially in HBP, Harry defeating Voldemort with three magical objects, two of which were never mentioned before, kind of cheapens that, doesn't it?
The action, or lack thereof. On the one hand, we have Harry sitting around in a tent doing nothing. On the other hand, we have Neville leading a rebellion at Hogwarts. Which one sounds more interesting, and which one did we actually get to see?
Yeah. I thought so, too.
The offscreen deaths of Lupin and Tonks. How come Fred and Dobby get to die onscreen, but the last Marauder and his wife don't? It just bugs me.
The anticlimactic Final Showdown between Harry and Voldemort. No further comment needed.
The tone. I loathe OOTP with every fiber of my being, but even that book didn't make me feel depressed just reading it.
In summary? DH is a hot mess. But you didn't need me to tell you that.
*sits back and waits for the flames*
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no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 12:45 am (UTC)Don't get me wrong, it was awesome and heart-wrenching and thoughtfully provided us with a canon slash couple -
Sorry, I have to get you wrong. :-) Dumbledore's homosexuality isn't a canon fact. At least, not in the seven books; I haven't read Cursed Child yet.
In the books Dumbledore's character is certainly *consistent* with being a homosexual - he's never seen in romantic liaison with a woman, he's not married, and so forth, nothing contravening the theory - but there's nothing confirming it either. Rowling's 'outing' him at Carnegie Hall isn't canon.
Dumbledore's infallibility is ludicrous and, in fact, impossible. I'm still confused as to what the ultimate 'plan' was concerning the deus ex machina stick. Was it (a) to let Snape inherit it, or (b) to die 'undefeated'? I think Dumbledore stated both.
Second, Severus did not love Lily. He was infatuated and later obsessed with her.
I agree. I don't particularly think that Snape's unrequited crush is 'pathetic' but I also don't think it was enough to motivate him to endure years of torture as a Riddle minion and so forth.
My main reason for holding that Snape didn't truly 'love' Lily is that he was quite happy to see her husband and child murdered by Riddle; initially it was only *her*, his crush, that he wanted saved. It was only after Dumbledore's prompting that he added James and Harry to the list as an afterthought. I believe one metric of true love is the desire to see your loved one happy even if is to one's own disadvantage. If Snape truly loved Lily then he would have wanted her to be *happy* - i.e. keep her husband and baby boy - even if that wasn't the best outcome for himself.
But Snape's first reaction was to think of himself first.
Rowling seemed intent to keep Harry mired as a normal barely adequate wizard, entirely passive. I think that's sad; but it was her call. Written as he was, though, a lot of the possible drama and 'heroism' was leeched out of the books and his achievements. Consider Harry's instantaneous decision to suicide:
... Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive. His job was to walk calmly into Death's welcoming arms.
These are not the thoughts of a 'hero' fighting hard to stay alive or otherwise consciously sacrificing his own life so that others may live. No. It's the automatic Pavlovian response of a brainwashed plot puppet unthinkingly doing his 'job'. Very little heroism to admire in that.
Harry defeating Voldemort with three magical objects, two of which were never mentioned before, kind of cheapens that, doesn't it?
Yes, of course. Rowling's reliance on dei ex machina is legendarily massive. It still amazes me that she got away with it. Give her credit for targeting ignorant children who didn't know any better.
But yes. The Cloak is suddenly promoted to super-duper status because we're suddenly told it went through the washer-dryer a few times without fading. The Stone materialises to be used in one. single. scene. Just so Rowling can shoehorn in her favoured suicide cheer squad moment. And the deus ex machina stick is introduced to get the barely-adequate Harry over the finish line, since he can't do it on his own merits. Destroying six earlier books' "the wand chooses the wizard" mantra along the way.
Pfah!
The anticlimactic Final Showdown between Harry and Voldemort. No further comment needed.
Other than that the movie people thought so also. It's illustrative to note that Rowling's poor canon was shelved more and more as the movies progressed. They certainly didn't want to get anywhere close to that pitiful 'showdown'.
I loathe OOTP with every fiber of my being -
Wait, what?!? It's my favourite! Harry actually does something proactive. Even if it's at the prodding of Hermione (what a gal!!).
no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 01:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 01:50 am (UTC)There are *probably* books that are worse than DH :-), but none that have enjoyed its huge commercial success. I need to put across the summary idea that it's simply the world's greatest literary catastrophe in terms of dollars per error, something like that. 'Per verbum' will fit in there somewhere!
no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 01:59 am (UTC)Someone who actually knows Latin might need to correct my grammar. Feel free to do so. I’m a true Ravenclaw, and care more about getting the information right than about being recognized as knowing everything myself.
no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 09:09 pm (UTC)What about per errores?
no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 08:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 08:51 am (UTC)Well, DH probably was her first draft. Not kidding. Well, not much. By the last few books Rowling had too much power to be controlled or edited. I remember for a fact - pretty sure - snippets at the time about how the editing was minimal. DH was only seen by four people before it was printed - one head publisher on each side of the pond, only one editor included I think. Big publicity over things like that.
I remember the editor being interviewed and giving as examples of her contribution things like looking for classrooms on the wrong floors, mistakes with which houses shared which classes, things like that. 'Continuity errors'. But absolutely nothing mentioned about *real* editing, like dear Jo, you need to cut out a hundred pages; dear Jo, this entire sub-plot doesn't make sense; dear Jo, you've just got to cut out that ridiculous final showdown, it's strictly amateur hour. Rowling was too powerful. Umpteen times she stated that Harry was 'hers' and none but she shalt write him. And she was the golden goose that could not be denied.
Okay, who wants to organise a ten-year anniversary pillory of DH? :-)
SPaG
Date: 2017-01-07 02:57 pm (UTC)I am constantly having to look up abbreviations when people whose fingers are apparently crippled find it too difficult to write out full words. Acronym finder is a godsend. I have it on my bookmarks.
http://www.acronymfinder.com
Re: SPaG
Date: 2017-01-07 10:30 pm (UTC)It wasn't one of the HP books, so I thought that it might have been a DH chapter but couldn't find that either ...
no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 07:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-05 03:20 pm (UTC)I wouldn't say that that's entirely true. When he comes to Dumbledore, he does refer to all of them:
“You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down--kill them all--”
He says this before Dumbledore accuses him of only caring about Lily. So, James and Harry were on his mind, even if Lily was the primary reason.
/If Snape truly loved Lily then he would have wanted her to be *happy*/
But he did. By attributing Snape's reformation solely to Lily, JKR invites readers to think that Snape was some kind of obsessed stalker. And yet after Lily breaks off their friendship, we never hear of Snape stalking her, harassing her, or trying to prevent her from dating and then marrying James. So, as far as we know, he did let her be happy, even if it was with someone whom he had every reason to hate.
/The Cloak is suddenly promoted to super-duper status because we're suddenly told it went through the washer-dryer a few times without fading./
I always thought that was strange, because the concept of other Invisibility Cloaks existing was introduced earlier in the series. Barty Crouch Jr. had his own Invisibility Cloak, but now Harry's is suddenly one of the Deathly Hallows? And here I thought that the promotion of the diary - which, unlike the other deliberate Horcruxes, was an ordinary object and one not associated with any of the Founders - to a Horcrux was random and slightly contrived. But at least that one did make some sense.
/And the deus ex machina stick is introduced to get the barely-adequate Harry over the finish line/
It's not even the wand, it's a wand *technicality*. Harry doesn't learn to master the wand or do anything special with it. It's his because he stole it from Draco in a struggle.
no subject
Date: 2017-01-06 12:34 am (UTC)But even so - knowing, admitting, as you say, that all three are to be killed - he comes to Dumbledore initially only asking that *she*, his crush, be saved.
I don't think there's much to your argument. I criticised Snape and demoted his 'love' because he did not initially ask Dumbledore to save the male Potters, even though that would be what Lily would want. My criticism wouldn't make sense if Snape didn't know that the males were to be killed! You've just shown that he *did* know, which means he deliberately didn't ask for them to be saved ... which is my point.
And yet after Lily breaks off their friendship, we never hear of Snape stalking her, harassing her, or trying to prevent her from dating and then marrying James.
True enough. So Snape isn't super selfish, evil, etc. But he also doesn't have a chance to acquire Lily in the first place - she's made her choice, wiped him off.
And when he *does* have that chance - he tries to save/snatch her. Only her.
I always thought that was strange, because the concept of other Invisibility Cloaks existing was introduced earlier in the series. Barty Crouch Jr. had his own Invisibility Cloak -
Yes. And Moody had *two*! In GoF, I think, he mentions how he gave his spare to Mundungus.
It truly disgusts me how Rowling just waved her hands and did *whatever she wanted* - in desperation, in laziness - to get DH written and out the door. And there was no real criticism or penalty. She got away with it, with that load of garbage.
Harry doesn't learn to master the wand or do anything special with it. It's his because he stole it from Draco in a struggle.
Yeah. Rowling seemed *really really determined* to keep Harry mired down as a barely competent young wizard. She really didn't want him to win by any cleverness or ability of his own. And so the entire series that held a generation spellbound is resolved in its climax with some lawyer talk about wand lore small print that no-one knew existed.
It still amazes me that she got away with it.
no subject
Date: 2017-01-19 08:57 am (UTC)we have Snape who risks his life (twice! ...)
True.
Since this young family are prime members of a Secret Order, by warning the Head of that Order, it GOES WITHOUT SAYING that the warning is for all three.
You'd think so - I agree - and yet Snape doesn't seem to have thought that far, as per my next -
...saying, "you have to save them!"
'Them', mind you.
No no no. :-)
He does NOT say 'them'. It's crystal clear that his first, only, thought is to save Lily. When Dumbledore assumes-out-loud that he only asked for Lily to be saved Snape doesn't say what anyone would have said - had that NOT been true - "wait, what, I didn't --".
When Dumbledore asks him straight out "you do not care, then about the deaths of husband and child" Snape doesn't say what anyone would say - had that NOT been true - "no, I do care, I did ask".
Instead he 'says nothing'.
And then says "Hide them all, then".
'Then' being a key word. 'Hide them all', then, if you want to do something other than my original intent, saving just Lily.
And then his next utterance has a further damning slip - "Keep her - them - safe". Keep her, whups, okay, he wants to do something else, save *them*.
Sorry, I think it's pretty clear that Snape originally intended to rescue only Lily. And that was who all he'd asked Riddle to spare.
But I appreciate your earlier point that Snape risked his life. But it wasn't for bona fide 'true love'. His desire for Lily fell short of that.
By pretending I wanted Lily for my own, I got the Dark Lord to actually promise me that he would spare her!
Is it actually canon that that's the case? Maybe you have a good point here. Lily's death scene is in DH and Riddle seems to want to spare Lily, which is consistent with Snape having succeeded in his request for the Dark Lord to spare her - "Stand aside, you silly girl ... stand aside now ... this is my last warning ...".
But then:
He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all ...
I think that sentence shows that Riddle had NOT agreed to Snapes request to save Lily - just Lily - and hence why Snape had sought Dumbledore. To, initially, just save Lily.
If that was ALL I wanted, I wouldn't be here to warn YOU.
But that's not true. If that was ALL he wanted, AND if Riddle had agreed, then Snape wouldn't have met with Dumbledore.
But Riddle refused. It "wasn't prudent". He showed reluctance at first to kill the woman, but then, rather than 'force her away' - easy enough a task for a dark lord facing a defenceless wandless woman - he killed her.
So Snape asked - was refused - and then went to Dumbledore. All to save Lily. Her men were an afterthought, prompted by Dumbledore's 'disgust'.
... So I've warned you. Get off your sanctimonious arse and DO YOUR JOB!
Alas, such crystal-clear dialogue is not in the books. :-(
Don't take Dumbledore's word for ANYTHING.
As I've mentioned above, I take Snape's words as proof that he originally was only concerned with saving Lily.
We SEE a young man who throws away everything he has and will ever have, including his life, om order to save the lives off his worst tormenter, a foolish girl and her baby, and instead of calling him noble for doing so, some will insist that he is a selfish creeper who wants two of those HE IS ACTIVELY SAVING to be killed!
What I see is a young man who risks his life (good point, again) to save the life of the girl with whom he is infatuated. I don't think that makes him a 'selfish creeper'. But I also believe that his - initially - only wanting to have Lily saved means he was a couple of rungs short of 'true love' too.
Somewhere in the middle maybe. I'll go along with it being more than simple lust; they'd been childhood friends. But whatever it was - pointed out by someone else - wasn't enough for Snape to keep trying to 'win' Lily after the 'mudblood' incident or when James caught her eye.
no subject
Date: 2017-01-19 09:05 am (UTC)Snape looks confused. "But.. but Lily loves him, and she loves her baby.. I just want her to be happy, and to live!"
Yes. That's exactly what I would have liked - would have wanted - to see, as proof that Snape was the noble (background) hero whose love for Lily was the 'real thing', top of the list, nothing greater.
Or, failing that - in the absence of Dumbldore's out-of-character humility and the melodrama of your passage :-) - at least something that showed that Snape turned up wanting to save all three Potters from the start.
But - sadly - there wasn't any such sign. Instead, dialogue from Snape that showed that he was, initially, interested only in Lily.
Because if you don't, it's not Snape's ACTIONS that make you believe those things, but rather Dumbledore's WORDS.
No, it is SNAPE'S words. As per my previous comment.
Still, in the end, we shouldn't forget that the record shows that Snape agreed - having risked his life, etc - to save all three.
And then Lily's death was enough to keep him going for 18 more years.
(Which is a bit unbelievable for me; but it's canon.)
I hope you had fun in Amsterdam!