sunnyskywalker: Voldemort from Goblet of Fire movie; text "Dark Lord of Exposition" (ExpositionMort)
[personal profile] sunnyskywalker posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
A lot of fanon assumes that because Lucius, Severus, and Bellatrix are very important during the second war, they must have been so during the first. Lucius was especially trusted and valued because Voldemort gave him the diary and told him so much about it. Similarly, Bellatrix was exceptionally trusted and important because he told her all about the Horcrux he gave her to guard. Severus was important because he got assigned a special mission at Hogwarts. But does any of that that hold up? Not very well, in my opinion.

We know the most about how Regulus’s experience as a Horcrux-guardian, and it shows the opposite: Voldemort didn’t tell him anything. All he did was demand the use of the family house-elf. Whom he didn’t even intend to return. If he didn’t explain why he wanted an elf beforehand, I doubt he planned to tell Regulus after the fact, when Regulus asked whether the family’s beloved servant was finished with his mysterious task yet. “He died furthering my goals. Isn’t it an honor?” was probably about it. This doesn’t exactly suggest that he valued Regulus (at least not as anything more than a trophy), and definitely doesn’t indicate trust. So why assume he thought vastly better of Lucius or Bellatrix?

I’ve already examined how much Lucius may or may not have known about the diary and Voldemort, and how much of that he may have learned (or speculated) on his own versus learning it directly from Voldemort. I think it’s most likely that Voldemort didn't trust Lucius any more than he had Regulus and was parsimonious with his explanations.

Really, all Lucius had to do was play messenger-boy. Accepting that Lucius has enough basic competence to keep an enchanted diary he doesn’t fully understand safe for a few weeks or months before handing it off requires a little trust, but not that Lucius be a top-level lieutenant and confidant. Especially if Voldemort chose Lucius partly for his known friendship with recent-Hogwarts-hire Severus, which gave the two of them a plausible reason to meet at the Hog’s Head some Friday night for the hand-off, rather than on his own merits.

What about Bellatrix? We don’t actually know what she knew about the cup other than that it was extremely valuable to the Dark Lord. “His most precious—” something. But the cup of Helga Hufflepuff, one of the four Founders of Hogwarts, has enormous historical and propaganda value, plus fabulous magical properties (according to Hepzibah). If someone handed you a relic of Benjamin Franklin’s which was also intrinsically valuable and fabulously magical, you wouldn’t feel a need to look for secret extra reasons someone would value it. “It’s Helga’s cup” is more than enough to convince Bellatrix that the cup is very, very important without throwing Horcruxification into the mix. This goes double for a sword which is just one tier down on the “famous magical British swords list” from Excalibur. Plus, Voldemort expects his followers to obey him regardless of whether they understand his orders, and Bellatrix accepts this. If he says it’s important, it’s important.

If she does know that it’s a Horcrux, that prompts the same question as for Lucius and the diary: did Voldemort tell her, or did she find out on her own? Whatever books in the Black family library let Regulus figure it out were surely accessible to Bellatrix too, so she could have worked it out on her own.

She doesn’t need to know about Horcruxes to believe that Voldemort isn’t dead and could be found and revived. Voldemort claims that all of his Death Eaters all knew he was alive (none of them claim otherwise as a defense), and that he’d told them something to explain his deathlessness — something which wasn’t Horcruxes, because Severus had never heard of those until Dumbledore explained. Bellatrix has no reason to doubt that when Voldemort says he can’t be killed, it’s true. Especially not if her Dark Mark has enough weak existence to prove that Voldemort is still around in some fashion.

Also, he didn’t trust Bellatrix with the cup’s protection: he trusted Gringotts. The bank which is allegedly impossible to break into. (Voldemort hadn’t yet tried to rob Gringotts when he gave the cup to Bella and didn’t know how overblown their security reputation was. Even later, he may have thought he was the only one who could pull it off, as he thought he was the only one who found the Room of Hidden Things.) Harry can spin stories about Voldemort feeling like access to a Gringotts bank vault makes him a real wizard or whatever all he likes, and maybe he’s even right, but that doesn’t mean it’s Voldemort’s primary motive. “No one will be able to break in and steal it” is a pretty good motive all by itself.

So, sure, maybe Voldemort told Bella everything. But maybe he told her nothing more than the obvious: this is Helga Hufflepuff’s magic cup, which will be safer in a bank vault.

What we actually know is this: in the one case where we know how much he explained to his follower about the Horcrux — Regulus — the answer is “nothing.” He didn’t care enough to so much as warn Regulus ahead of time that he intended to kill the family’s faithful servant. And he didn’t trust any of his followers to create the protections for his Horcruxes. At most, he allowed them to handle the Horcruxes long enough to pass them on.

No, Voldemort didn’t trust his Horcrux-guardians.

What about special missions? Does sending Severus into Hogwarts prove that Voldemort valued him?

Well, his mission was probably to assassinate Dumbledore. We know how much he valued Draco when he assigned Draco that mission. And he told Severus to apply for the cursed DADA position. Did he care what would happen to Severus by the end of the year? He doesn’t seem bothered that his most loyal servant Barty Junior didn’t survive his Hogwarts mission, and that’s when loyal, competent followers are much thinner on the ground.

It’s possible that Severus’s “value” is what makes him an odd man out in the Death Eaters: his background. Voldemort probably always wanted a few followers who could serve as spies and assassins when needed. He can’t plant someone like Evan Rosier at Hogwarts. Dumbledore might have a reputation (deserved or not) for giving second chances, but would even he trust a second-generation Death Eater and Slytherin alumnus from an anti-Dumbledore family who claimed a change of heart? Enough to give the guy a job? (Probably, but Voldemort might not have known back then how reckless Dumbledore’s hiring decisions could be.) No, more convincing would be, say, a half-blood with no money or social status who’d once been friends with a Muggle-born. Someone who could plausibly claim that he’d realized his pureblood friends were using him and would never consider him an equal. Guilt over endangering a former friend was an unexpected but useful addition to the cover story. (Too bad for Voldemort that this turned out to be, not just plausible, but true.) Voldemort obviously didn’t value Severus’s other talents so highly that he minded losing the young man to a probable suicide mission. Severus was valuable precisely because of his disposability.

It’s possible that his situation was even closer to Draco’s. Voldemort might have known about the secret tunnels between Hogwarts and Hogsmeade and the Vanishing Cabinet with its pair in Borgin and Burkes. If so, he could have sneaked into Hogwarts to kill Dumbledore any time he wanted. It’s possible that he didn’t expect Severus to succeed, but placed him there as a fall guy (by making him plant the diary on a student and then failing to kill Dumbledore) or to dispose of an inconveniently-sharp follower via the curse.

I think that during the first war, Severus was kept somewhat apart and carefully cultivated to ensure that he didn’t realize he was disposable until the last minute, Bellatrix was a pet/attack dog but not the top dog, and Lucius was middle management. They’re important during the second war mostly because so many other Death Eaters died in battle or in Azkaban that they’re the most competent ones still standing. If their status rose during the first war, it wasn’t until very near the end.

Date: 2022-09-15 01:38 am (UTC)
nx74defiant: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nx74defiant
One of the qualities Voldemort & Dumbledore share is that they don't believe in sharing information.

Lucius obviously didn't know what the diary really was. If he had would he have sent it to Hogwarts with Ginny? I don't think so.

Since Severus and Lucius stayed out of Azkaban they are also one of the few relatively sane Death Eaters.

Date: 2022-09-15 05:30 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Regarding Helga's cup, in my head-canon giving it to Bellatrix was a temporary measure. Tom intended some elaborate death-trap to protect it, either under Hepzibah's home or under Borgin & Burke's shop, and may have started working on it after he placed the locket in the basin in the of horrors, but the prophecy business distracted him so he never got around to completing the project. (It just bothered me that he was willing to rely on someone else's agency to guard his Horcrux.)

Regarding Lucius, we see when the DEs gather at the end of GOF there are 2 that speak of their own initiative - Avery, begging for forgiveness - he gets tortured by Tom; and Lucius - asking for the details of Tom's survival - he gets exposition, and no torture. This suggests Lucius was the highest ranking DE among those in the gathering - those that survived and avoided imprisonment.

Date: 2022-12-31 03:50 pm (UTC)
chantaldormand: (pic#15869174)
From: [personal profile] chantaldormand

Before I comment on anything else: are we certain Voldemort asked Bella to hide the Cup in her vault at Gringotts? Because to me, it doesn't sound like a good place to hide Horcrux. Sure it's less accessible than for example Gaunt's ring location, but what happens when Bella, Rodolphus and Rabastan die in combat? Do the contents of the vault go to Narcissa? Somebody else? Do Goblins raid the vault for any goblin-made artefacts before giving the rest to the family of the deceased? Too much risk with Tom lacking enough control over the situation to feel secure.

Also are we sure Gringotts had that great reputation? We learn about its reputation from Hagrid out of all people. For all we know there were multiple break-ins over the years but goblins are great at covering it up and... retrieving the goods.

As for the true status of Horcrux guardians... I have to wonder what Voldemort's plans for recovering from death were before he went after Potters. I mean he actively participated in raids in era where Aurors were permitted to use Unforgivables. With how obsessed he was with not dying he had to have some game plan for any unplanned body destructions. Is this why he was so mad at DEs in GOF for not searching him out after he had a frontal collision with Potter luck? He had passed some vague orders to his generals just-in-case and they failed to follow them?

Lucius strikes me as too much out for his and his family's interest to be a reliable high-ranking officer. But then again maybe that is why Voldemort doesn't have any trusted followers- he recruited from Slytherin and then realised he should have gone for Hufflepuffs?

Anyway back to the subject. IMHO Lucius got Diary for three reasons: 1) deploying a weapon, 2) potentially taking fall if the plan failed and 3) temporary safekeeping. I'm baffled that Voldemort wanted to risk a piece of his soul for not that good plan, but I guess at that point he was insane and overconfident enough to want to pull something like that.

With Bella... considering how loyal she is I think he trusts her, but in the same capacity, you would trust a talking dog. She can follow orders to a point and won't try to backstab him, but giving her too much information would confuse her priorities. Besides what Bella doesn't know, can't be extracted with Veritaserum.

Severus, I think he trusted even less than Lucious. Severus is too talented for his own good and Voldemort might have seen him as future competition. A half-blood Slytherin from a troubled background and talented in both potion AND spell creation? That had to hit a bit too close to home. But he was a bit too useful to just kill him off and be done with, so he send him on a suicide mission.

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