OotP Chapter Five
Nov. 24th, 2007 01:44 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockQuickly getting this out before my internet goes down again!
*Sad that apparently the best thing the Order ever did was come up with their name, a name they never lived up to in decades.
* Harry continues his mood swings, appreciating things like Molly saying he might as well be a son but also impatient at her molly coddling. I would consider it presumptuous for some woman to claim I was basically her son, particularly if I were Harry, since people like to claim him for his name. Of course, in canon the only people who get criticized for this are bad guys--good guys are always assumed to like Harry for himself, though personally I think Molly's had plenty of Orphan!Harry fantasies where she's Mama Mary Sue. If I were Harry I'd never kid myself into thinking my best friend's mum really cared about me as much as she did even her least favorite child (if she had one) on his worst day. Particularly not in this world, where despite what people try to claim about it being about tolerance and modern-thinking, family seems to be everything.
* Fudge's story does, at least, make sense, the way he's convinced himself he's right. We also get a hint here that the rest of the world has no reason to believe Harry, which he will deal with by ranting about it and deciding they are stupid. It's still a shame the alternative must be Dumbledore. I will continue to dream of a Wizarding Society where people can make informed decisions and not constantly give up freedom for safety.
* The theory that liking us=good person gets more play with Harry feeling a surge of affection for Sirius because he doesn't like Dumbledore, which is both a nicely human touch for Harry but also not all that examined. I mean, Harry doesn't know Sirius that well, and their supposedly great bond therefore always seems very fake to me. This just underscores it. Harry likes Sirius as long as he's not standing in his way, which is the extent to which he likes most people.
*Why would Peter have just told Voldemort Sirius was an animagus? Wouldn't he have told him that years ago, like when he first joined up? Was he waiting for Remus to tell before he did or something?
* Then there's also Mundungus, of whom Molly does not approve, for understandable reasons. The last thing the twins need is a confirmed criminal regaling them with tales of how fun it is to be a crook as long as you're loyal to Dumbledore. I actually have no problem with the idea of working with shady people when necessary, and think it's pretty reasonable to say well, maybe he's not usually trustworthy but he's loyal to us so he's useful to an extent, but you don't have to romanticize him, which the twins are probably in danger of doing.
* Then there's the whole, "Don't tell Harry more than he needs to know" business. I'm still having a hard time buying anybody's plan, either the Order's or Voldemort's. It's just so obvious Harry should know more than he does. It's got nothing to do with not being the Order, because this is about him personally. Even now it's clear Harry could be told enough to help him without letting him know he's got to kill Voldemort on his own (in case he hadn't figured that out yet).
*ETA: But then, you haven't seen a stupid plan until you've read DH.
* There's lots of vague references to how secretly Voldemort works and how dangerous things in the Order are, but having seen both groups up close that just doesn't hold up much. If Harry wasn't supposed to survive GoF why oh why isn't he taken out effectively? Honestly, Tom. Hire some Muggles to do it. The Russian mob would have taken all of these people down with far less fuss. I saw it on Law and Order.
*A lot has been made of Harry suddenly becoming a brat or a teenager, depending how you see him. Others have replied that since Harry didn't act 11 when he was 11, why should he be 15 at 15? Why shouldn't he continue to be more mature? In this chapter what struck me was...why are ALL the kids regressing? I've complained in the past at the way Malfoy seems stuck at 11, but here we get:
* Hermione and Ginny giggling over Tonk's funny noses at the table--yeah, I'm sure it's funny once but if you're older than a toddler it would get thin pretty quickly. Ginny also giggles at Mundungus falling asleep at the meeting--presumably because he's drunk? Again at 14 I don't think that would send me into giggles. In fact, most 14 year-old girls can be become downright humorless about that kind of thing, and while obviously Ginny would never be one of those girls (now), I can't imagine Hermione finding it funny if Ron were making funny noses at her. Does she have a crush on Tonks or something?
* Ginny stomping upstairs yelling when she's sent up to bed, and waking the portraits. Okay, I know supposedly Ginny was "always" the way she was in OotP, but damn it's hard to imagine the girl in earlier books throwing a tantrum like this. I know there are some teenagers that do this, but it just adds to this general feeling for me that all the kids have suddenly turned into babies. Obviously you do need to go to bed now young lady, because you're getting cranky. And apparently Ginny's again left a pile of toys on the floor when she left.
* Ron and Hermione don't help with their whining when they're sent upstairs and their, "Harry's just going to tell us anyway! We want to staaaayyyy!" I understand their point but like I said, it just adds to this general feeling that kids who up till now have been characteristically calm and well-behaved have turned into something more childish. I know that at 11 they'd almost have an advantage because they wouldn't imagine they had any right to be at the meeting, while now they feel more like adults, but still you'd think they'd know how to handle adults better.
* Finally, there's the twins spilling things over everything when they try to set the table. Molly's way of chastizing them by pointing out that Bill didn't apparate everywhere, Charlie didn't whip out his wand for everything is bad news because it sets them against their brothers, but her general point is absolutely correct. They really are acting like complete babies who can't control themselves with a new toy. Yes, boys, we know you can do magic now, but it's not cute. I mean, presumably it's supposed to be part of their whole jokester personality but there's nothing particularly funny about trying to fling the pots around and stopping them short--where else would that lead but a big mess and somebody almost getting hurt? I feel like JKR is trying to add a certain kind of chaotic humor to the situation that clashes with the other characterization thusfar. This scene was almost like a tiny ad for the Malfoy way of parenting--you know Lucius would have responded to this with some withering remark about even getting a bowl of stew from one end of the room to the other was beyond their abilities, then he'd probably order a house elf to cut up their meat for them at dinner to further make his humiliating point. That would have so worked on me.
*Sad that apparently the best thing the Order ever did was come up with their name, a name they never lived up to in decades.
* Harry continues his mood swings, appreciating things like Molly saying he might as well be a son but also impatient at her molly coddling. I would consider it presumptuous for some woman to claim I was basically her son, particularly if I were Harry, since people like to claim him for his name. Of course, in canon the only people who get criticized for this are bad guys--good guys are always assumed to like Harry for himself, though personally I think Molly's had plenty of Orphan!Harry fantasies where she's Mama Mary Sue. If I were Harry I'd never kid myself into thinking my best friend's mum really cared about me as much as she did even her least favorite child (if she had one) on his worst day. Particularly not in this world, where despite what people try to claim about it being about tolerance and modern-thinking, family seems to be everything.
* Fudge's story does, at least, make sense, the way he's convinced himself he's right. We also get a hint here that the rest of the world has no reason to believe Harry, which he will deal with by ranting about it and deciding they are stupid. It's still a shame the alternative must be Dumbledore. I will continue to dream of a Wizarding Society where people can make informed decisions and not constantly give up freedom for safety.
* The theory that liking us=good person gets more play with Harry feeling a surge of affection for Sirius because he doesn't like Dumbledore, which is both a nicely human touch for Harry but also not all that examined. I mean, Harry doesn't know Sirius that well, and their supposedly great bond therefore always seems very fake to me. This just underscores it. Harry likes Sirius as long as he's not standing in his way, which is the extent to which he likes most people.
*Why would Peter have just told Voldemort Sirius was an animagus? Wouldn't he have told him that years ago, like when he first joined up? Was he waiting for Remus to tell before he did or something?
* Then there's also Mundungus, of whom Molly does not approve, for understandable reasons. The last thing the twins need is a confirmed criminal regaling them with tales of how fun it is to be a crook as long as you're loyal to Dumbledore. I actually have no problem with the idea of working with shady people when necessary, and think it's pretty reasonable to say well, maybe he's not usually trustworthy but he's loyal to us so he's useful to an extent, but you don't have to romanticize him, which the twins are probably in danger of doing.
* Then there's the whole, "Don't tell Harry more than he needs to know" business. I'm still having a hard time buying anybody's plan, either the Order's or Voldemort's. It's just so obvious Harry should know more than he does. It's got nothing to do with not being the Order, because this is about him personally. Even now it's clear Harry could be told enough to help him without letting him know he's got to kill Voldemort on his own (in case he hadn't figured that out yet).
*ETA: But then, you haven't seen a stupid plan until you've read DH.
* There's lots of vague references to how secretly Voldemort works and how dangerous things in the Order are, but having seen both groups up close that just doesn't hold up much. If Harry wasn't supposed to survive GoF why oh why isn't he taken out effectively? Honestly, Tom. Hire some Muggles to do it. The Russian mob would have taken all of these people down with far less fuss. I saw it on Law and Order.
*A lot has been made of Harry suddenly becoming a brat or a teenager, depending how you see him. Others have replied that since Harry didn't act 11 when he was 11, why should he be 15 at 15? Why shouldn't he continue to be more mature? In this chapter what struck me was...why are ALL the kids regressing? I've complained in the past at the way Malfoy seems stuck at 11, but here we get:
* Hermione and Ginny giggling over Tonk's funny noses at the table--yeah, I'm sure it's funny once but if you're older than a toddler it would get thin pretty quickly. Ginny also giggles at Mundungus falling asleep at the meeting--presumably because he's drunk? Again at 14 I don't think that would send me into giggles. In fact, most 14 year-old girls can be become downright humorless about that kind of thing, and while obviously Ginny would never be one of those girls (now), I can't imagine Hermione finding it funny if Ron were making funny noses at her. Does she have a crush on Tonks or something?
* Ginny stomping upstairs yelling when she's sent up to bed, and waking the portraits. Okay, I know supposedly Ginny was "always" the way she was in OotP, but damn it's hard to imagine the girl in earlier books throwing a tantrum like this. I know there are some teenagers that do this, but it just adds to this general feeling for me that all the kids have suddenly turned into babies. Obviously you do need to go to bed now young lady, because you're getting cranky. And apparently Ginny's again left a pile of toys on the floor when she left.
* Ron and Hermione don't help with their whining when they're sent upstairs and their, "Harry's just going to tell us anyway! We want to staaaayyyy!" I understand their point but like I said, it just adds to this general feeling that kids who up till now have been characteristically calm and well-behaved have turned into something more childish. I know that at 11 they'd almost have an advantage because they wouldn't imagine they had any right to be at the meeting, while now they feel more like adults, but still you'd think they'd know how to handle adults better.
* Finally, there's the twins spilling things over everything when they try to set the table. Molly's way of chastizing them by pointing out that Bill didn't apparate everywhere, Charlie didn't whip out his wand for everything is bad news because it sets them against their brothers, but her general point is absolutely correct. They really are acting like complete babies who can't control themselves with a new toy. Yes, boys, we know you can do magic now, but it's not cute. I mean, presumably it's supposed to be part of their whole jokester personality but there's nothing particularly funny about trying to fling the pots around and stopping them short--where else would that lead but a big mess and somebody almost getting hurt? I feel like JKR is trying to add a certain kind of chaotic humor to the situation that clashes with the other characterization thusfar. This scene was almost like a tiny ad for the Malfoy way of parenting--you know Lucius would have responded to this with some withering remark about even getting a bowl of stew from one end of the room to the other was beyond their abilities, then he'd probably order a house elf to cut up their meat for them at dinner to further make his humiliating point. That would have so worked on me.
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Date: 2007-11-25 04:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-26 02:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-24 07:28 pm (UTC)I actually have this vision that this is Tonks' one joke, and she thinks everyone finds it hilarious, and the girls always laugh at it to be polite.
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Date: 2007-11-25 04:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-24 11:53 pm (UTC)The sad thing is that the only reason Molly doesn't have a least favorite child is that she can decide which of the three (Fred, George, and Ron) she dislikes most.
sistermagpie: *Why would Peter have just told Voldemort Sirius was an animagus? Wouldn't he have told him that years ago, like when he first joined up? Was he waiting for Remus to tell before he did or something?
Probably saving it for a time when he needed to please Voldemort. If you tell everything all at once, you don't have any leverage left. Of course, you run the risk of being accused of withholding information. But Peter doesn't seem to be averse to a few rounds of the cruciatus curse if it helps him stay in a favored position.
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Date: 2007-11-25 04:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-26 06:19 am (UTC)The sad thing is that the only reason Molly doesn't have a least favorite child is that she can decide which of the three (Fred, George, and Ron) she dislikes most.
I'll wager that once the joke shop got off the ground, started making lots of money, and she started getting expensive gifts, she settled on Ron. We certainly heard no more complaining from her about the shop after this book.
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Date: 2007-11-25 10:23 am (UTC)Yeah, this just reminds me of that hilarious part later where McGonagall is getting all ruffled over the Ministry consorting with criminals as if Dumbledore doesn't abuse his own power in exactly the same way protecting Mundungus.
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Date: 2007-11-25 12:26 pm (UTC)Excuse me while I pick myself up from the floor.
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Date: 2007-11-25 04:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-25 10:26 am (UTC)I remember when first reading this chapter, I got a weird feeling of the Order being the "Liberation front of Judea" in "The life of Brian": ridiculously self-important and likely to accomplish nothing at all. It all seems to be "We would SO do something, if we knew how and what!!! Because, actually, we can't because we might get caught. But it was SO bad for Voldemort we were alerted to his return early on, so could start doing nothing much earlier!!!"
"Don't tell Harry more than he needs to know" business...It's just so obvious Harry should know more than he does. It's got nothing to do with not being the Order, because this is about him personally.
SO right. It is stupid in the extreme and reminds me very much of the batshit insane idea of protecting a girl's virtue by not telling her about what a man might want to do to her...- just like in PoA with not telling him about Sirius.
And Molly! I had some reserves towards her before - but she hit the guiness record in stupidity with the whole "Nobody must tell my daughter about anything" tantrum. I mean - this woman has had seven children, right? And she hasn't grasped yet, that putting a child to bed without talking about something he/ she is curious about in the hope he/she will have forgotten it by morning may work beautifully with a toddler and even a very small pre-kindergarden child - BUT NOT A TEENAGER WITHOUT BRAIN-DAMAGE!!! Lord!!! So I kind of disagree with your idea the children are behaving like babies - they are, but in comparison to the mother wonder that is Molly they act extremely mature.
I feel like JKR is trying to add a certain kind of chaotic humor to the situation
Exactly. IMO, the twins quite often are funny when talking, but their pranks are not. Anyone remember the supposedly funny act of sending Ginny a toilet seat? But then, they've grown up in a family where two grown men send tables crashing through the air for fun...I suppose it's just Arthur's otherworldly playfulness combined with Molly's idiocy that did it...
This scene was almost like a tiny ad for the Malfoy way of parenting
Oh yessss. Starts dreaming...
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Date: 2007-11-25 12:37 pm (UTC)THE WAR
Voldermort: spends time waiting for Harry to go into the Department of Mysteries and/or dangling people upside down.
The Order: spends time waiting for Voldemort to go into the Department of Mysteries and/or not telling Harry anything.
The Final BattleTM: A dozen Death Eaters against a dozen Order members. No, wait. There's got to be some Drama. Add an indeterminable number of schoolchildren, giants, spiders, etc. Kill off random people. Teh Drama happens.
THE END
(no subject)
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Date: 2007-11-25 01:01 pm (UTC)Oh, me too. The fact that Harry was said to be "innocent" and "pure" at the end of OOtP only reinforced that idea. Clearly Dumbledore would've preached abstinence instead of safe sex. ;-)
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Date: 2009-02-05 02:12 am (UTC)Not to mention Neville's grandmother yelling "He is NOT the Chosen One, he's a very naughty boy!"
Or how incredibly creepy if Sirius, James, Lily, etc. all sang "Always Look On the Bright Side of Life" while parading Harry to his death...
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2007-11-25 01:37 pm (UTC)Presumptuous and stupid since he's nothing like a son to her. Harry's never been an honorary Weasley. He's Ron's friend -- his rich and famous friend if you're Molly or the twins. If Molly's so overflowing with maternal instincts, let's see her being super nice to Ron's other friend, the Muggleborn girl. Muggleborns basically lose their parents when they enter the WW, shouldn't Hermione get some of that orphan love too?
For his part Harry seems to think of Molly as the housekeeper. The family he fantasizes about is Sirius, as long as Sirius is unattainable that is.
* Ginny stomping upstairs yelling when she's sent up to bed, and waking the portraits. Okay, I know supposedly Ginny was "always" the way she was in OotP, but damn it's hard to imagine the girl in earlier books throwing a tantrum like this.
Love that narrative pointer, "Ginny did not go quietly". Behold her indomitable will in action! Isn't she feisty? Doesn't it remind you of her uncle Fabian and Gideon's celebrated last stand when they took half a zillion DEs with them? Nasty, spoiled, ridiculously immature brats are our last best hope against Voldemort!
Molly's way of chastizing them by pointing out that Bill didn't apparate everywhere, Charlie didn't whip out his wand for everything is bad news because it sets them against their brothers, but her general point is absolutely correct.
On a slight tangent, this effectively punctures the fandom notion that Molly's always comparing the twins to just Percy because he's her favorite and that's why they bully him. Molly doesn't have a favorite, she has a gold standard of behavior. Any of her children who live up to it get praise and approval, and vice versa. Frankly, being on the receiving end of her conditional love would suck whether you're a twin or one of the "good" kids.
-L
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Date: 2007-11-25 04:32 pm (UTC)Yes, but she's a Scarlet woman.:-) Note that she's all over Hermione for allegedly breaking Harry's heart but hasn't noticed Ron's the one who likes Hermione and never sticks up for his interests. Though she's probably sticking up for Ginny's, wanting her to be with Harry. Was anybody else as creeped out as I was by Ron apparently feeling inferior to Ginny because she was the girl they wanted?
For his part Harry seems to think of Molly as the housekeeper. The family he fantasizes about is Sirius, as long as Sirius is unattainable that is.
It's great that Harry really never has to get to the point where he has to deal with families in any realistic way. When he gets married he just orders kids from central casting.
Love that narrative pointer, "Ginny did not go quietly". Behold her indomitable will in action! Isn't she feisty? Doesn't it remind you of her uncle Fabian and Gideon's celebrated last stand when they took half a zillion DEs with them? Nasty, spoiled, ridiculously immature brats are our last best hope against Voldemort!
Oh god, yes. If they color-coded the text this would go under the color for GINNY IS THE PERFECT GIRL FOR HARRY! HE'S THE ONLY ONE GOOD ENOUGH FOR HER!
On a slight tangent, this effectively punctures the fandom notion that Molly's always comparing the twins to just Percy because he's her favorite and that's why they bully him.
So true. She reaches for whatever kid didn't do whatever the annoying one is doing at that moment.
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-11-26 01:15 am (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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Date: 2007-11-25 05:27 pm (UTC)Thank you! After CoS, I never understood why Molly is supposed to be so full of mother love - I mean in the sense of loving a kid as a person. For me, she works on animal instinct - her love for her children being essentially about HER. HER children, like they were an extension of herself. Never more clear than in DH with her famous "Not my daughter, you bitch!"
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-11-26 01:17 am (UTC) - ExpandMyth of
Date: 2007-11-27 02:46 pm (UTC)But that's the rub, isn't it? _Everybody_ who initially befriends Harry does so because of his fame and/or his supposed future significance, while other kids as deserving of sympathy and help as him (Neville, Luna, Snape in his time, doubtlessly many nameless others) were left by the wayside. And yet, Harry graciously accepting some of that goodwill is supposed to show how loving and warm-hearted he is, how right, how unusual etc. Let's remember that Harry never manages to befriend or even productively ally with people who didn't fall in love with him from the get go. It is yet another instance of Rowling wanting to make Harry both insanely privileged and at the same time to be seen as unjustly persecuted, modest, etc.
It is true that Molly didn't really treat Harry as a son - he always got privileged treatment as compared to the Weasley children, he was never called to answer for his misdeeds or disciplined, etc. But I do think that Molly sincerely cared for him. They certainly risked a lot for Harry. You may say that perhaps it wasn't completely altruistic, perhaps they wanted a piece recognition and fame and maybe you'd be partly right. Nevertheless, they stood by him and risked for him year after year and that's worth a lot.
I have seen such situations often in RL, where some neglected kid or younger person got sort of "adopted" and it would seem that they were treated better than actual family... although often it would indeed be a sign that "adopter" just wasn't as invested. However, these relationships seldom failed to provoke some amount of jealousy and insecurity from the actual offspring, etc. Doesn't mean that it is wrong to undertake such, on the contrary - but one does need to employ some tact.
In fact, I strongly feel that one of the reasons for the later Percy conflict was Percy's feeling that Harry was effortlessly usurping his place in the family - place that he had to carve out with such effort.
There is a lot of nonsensical formulaic stuff in characterization of the Weasley family anyway. Like - why wouldn't Bill and Charlie help out the family at least a little? Why did Molly stay at home once Ginny went to Hogwarts if they were so poor? It isn't like she had a lot to do in the empty house. Why were they still so terribly poor in GoF, when Percy both worked and lived at home? Etc, etc. Like in so many instances in the books, Rowling wanted to make a point and to heck with common sense.
[quote]If Molly's so overflowing with maternal instincts, let's see her being super nice to Ron's other friend, the Muggleborn girl [/quote].
But she is. She did also take Hermione under her wing - and not just for Harry's sake, as Harry was quite happy at the Weasley's without her. Yes, Hermione's treatment is markedly different from Harry's and it is probably due to difference in their status. But it isn't like she got no sympathy at all.
I have to say that while I generally agree with opinions here and really enjoy most of the sarcasm, I don't get the whole Molly hatred. She is a very realistic character, with believable flaws. No, she isn't nearly as ideal a mother as JKR believes, but she is IMHO good enough. All that stuff that happens between her kids is just typical for a big family - or even, unfortunately, not so big. Of course kids get compared and so on and I sincerely think that anybody would be irritated with the twins 24/7, it is like they were stuck in "terrible twoes" for 16 years. Nor are they nearly as funny as they think. To be honest, I find Arthur with his surreptitious approval of the twins life-threatening antics and selfish determination to eshew his responsibilities in favor of his hobbies much more problematic than Molly.
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Date: 2007-11-25 07:40 pm (UTC)Oh lord, yes! :D The oddest thing about this series is that I find myself preferring the money-loving, you're all so beneath us, blatantly bigoted family. Sure they have their bad points, but take a look at the alternative!
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Date: 2007-11-25 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2007-11-26 09:24 pm (UTC)This is something that would have been cute in COS. Which is probably where it was originally in the story line. Then it would have been appropriate.
But talk about being immature. Did Tonks actually think a man 15 years older than her would have been attracted to her many noses trick? The fact that she wasn't concerned about impressing the LOVE OF HER LIFE, tells me that Rowling just shoved in the Tonks/Lupin deal to bulk up page count.
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Date: 2007-11-27 03:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2007-11-27 02:58 pm (UTC)Re: Tonks
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Date: 2007-12-02 03:37 pm (UTC)You too? That is something that has always bugged me. It's just weird, like Harry experienced some kind of filial-love-at-first sight thing with Sirius.
In PoA, I could explain Harry's joy at Sirius' invitation to live with him by figuring that he was mostly happy to get away from the Dursleys and live in the wizarding world. But then, all through GoF and OotP, whenever Harry has a problem, the person he always wants to spill his heart out to is Sirius. In whose company he has spent far less than 24 hours. In OotP, he'll talk to Lupin, his favorite professor for a whole year, if he can't get Sirius--but only as a distant second-best choice. (I liked Lupin at the time, so I was rather indignant about that on his behalf.)