HBP Chapter Two

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

HBP Chapter Two



*It turns out Spinner’s End really is Snape’s childhood home. However, I still maintain that he's only recently moved back there, having spent several years at Red Herring Antagonist Curve. Snape would like to thank Kathy at Meta Realty, for helping him buy back his house. Meta Realty: Where you are, and where you’re going!

*ETA: The Potterverse: If you don't change from childhood onward, why would your house?

*ETA: Seriously, Snape should win some award for arrested development--and in this series that's saying something. Not only is he condemned to spend the rest of his life at the school he entered at 11, dealing with the same rivalries he made on his first day, on the holidays he returns to the unhappy home of his childhood.

*I must remember to post that essay explaining why Spinner’s End is actually located in Bayonne, New Jersey, off exit 14A on the Turnpike.

*Aww. I love the fox. In my head he’s the descendent of Tolkien’s fox who sniffed at the hobbits. Industry has made him sickly and reduced to nosing at fish & chip wrappers.

*Bellatrix makes a louder pop—that’s bad, right? Like her craziness makes it harder to Apparate, or she’s just upset.

*ETA: As opposed to Ginny and Lily's Apparation, which is accompanied by an indescribably lovely sound somewhere between a dimished fifth and the satisfying pop of bubble wrap.

*Cissy—how much do I love that Narcissa is called Cissy. I wonder if when Bellatrix calls her Narcissa she’s trying to be nice. ETA: Don't be fooled by anything that looks like family love from Bellatrix, though.

*Bellatrix is horrified that Snape lives in a Muggle dunghill. Actually, Bella, Bayonne homes are among the best urban housing stock in the state, with residents actively maintaining and improving their homes and property. The city is set to begin a new era of economic development with new technology, new shopping malls and a civilianized ocean terminal.

*ETA: Note that Bella and Petunia share a snobby attitude towards Spinner's End, unlike Lily who would never look down on such things, but save her contempt for houses that deserve it, like suburban places decorated in Petunia's bad taste.

*Of course, since wizards have only ever managed to produce one village in all of England you can step off, bitch or we’ll turn off all the streetlamps and you can stumble around in total darkness.

*See the towering Dickensian Mill Chimney! Narcissa knocks aside two flower sellers and a chimney sweep in her mad dash to get to Snape.

*Hee! I love the idea of Snape opening the door a little and peeking out. Is it the pizza he ordered, or something more sinister?

*Does anyone else imagine when Snape and Bellatrix greet each other (“Snape.” “Bellatrix.”) they sound like Jerry and Newman on Seinfeld? Helloooo Snape.

*We’re told the place looks like a padded cell, but it seems quite cozy, though apparently without any modern conveniences. (Perhaps Snape literally lives in the 19th century?)

*ETA: Under the floorboards, much like the Malfoy's panic room, you'd find the Lily Room. It's where Snape keeps all her old hair, notes she once wrote him and pillowcases that smell like her. Also the walls are painted with giant pictures of her surrounded by chains that say FRIENDS.

*On November 13th Peter Pettigrew was asked to remove himself from his place of residence. That request came from his Dark Lord…. Can two Death Eating men share a house without driving each other crazy? Doo doot doo doot do dooooooo doot doo doo doot doo doo dooooo

*We will now pause while I hum the entire Odd Couple theme to myself and imagine Snape and Peter acting out the opening credits.

*Sometimes you totally have to remind yourself that Peter was supposed to be the Gryffindor’s friend and not just another Slytherin.

*Elf-made wine. Now I’m seeing Dobby and Kreacher wrestling in a vat of grapes. Ew.

*Snape pours out three glasses of blood red wine. I’m just going to say it: Slytherins have style. No matter what they’re doing, they’ve always got an eye towards the aesthetic. Snape’s sallow-skinned greasy-haired look is daring, but it’s intentional. ETA: It's for Lily.

*Death Eater Snape is amused and cool. Much cooler than Sirius was, much cooler than James would be had he lived—and I like James and Sirius. ETA: And much cooler than Snape himself will turn out to be, imo. Being a spy really agrees with him.

*Snape might as well turn to the camera at this point and say, “I’m sure you in the audience have all been wondering about exactly what I’m supposed to be doing all this time. With the help of my friend Bellatrix, I will now give you a quick overview of Severus Snape and the Philosopher’s Chamber of Secrets Stone of Azkaban’s Goblet of Fire, featuring the Order of the Phoenix."

*I love Snape’s line about Bella’s Azkaban gesture. You know he’s thought it to himself about every stupid Gryffindor stunt since the beginning of time. Yes, your death was wonderfully dramatic. Now I’ll go back to trying to do some actual practical good, shall I? ETA: No wonder he looks stricken at the suggestion he was Sorted too soon and would Sort Gryffindor now.

*ETA again: Not that that line makes any sense since the hat is never wrong. Hey...does that mean that being Sorted actually fixes your personality in some way, so that wherever you're correctly Sorted at 11 then *becomes* what you'll be your whole life? No wonder the Sorting Hat doesn't like its job. It's the only one that realizes it's stunting the entire population.

*What useful information has Snape passed, Bella wants to know. As this information doesn’t really exist, it will just have to remain vague and important sounding, just like all the stuff Snape does for the Order, and all the stuff the Order does when they’re not guarding Harry or giving him a lift to the Weasleys.

*Good for Narcissa sticking up for Lucius. Oh Narcissa, if you only knew what an idiot your sister was at the MoM... ETA: Of course we know now that Narcissa is quite aware of her husband's flaws and works around them. As she will work around her son's. Slytherins all suck but being a mother is a saving grace for anybody.

*Which reminds me, what happened to that crazy Bellatrix? She’s surprisingly lucid in this chapter. Did she forget to take her medication before going to the MoM?

*Snape mentions Dumbledore “noticing” if he’d joined forces with the DEs against the Order of the Phoenix. Seems the same could be said on the Tower, where many people thought Snape should have gone Matrix on all the bad guys at once while also curing Dumbledore of the poison.

*Speaking of dangers, you were facing six teenagers, were you not? Ooh, burn! ETA: This is especially funny when you remember that when the "war" starts the entire population will consider it a duty to sit at home and do nothing while 3 teenagers take care of everything.

*Yes Snape, Harry Potter. You could have killed him at any point in the past five years. You have not done it. Why? And after that, why didn’t the Fellowship just get the eagles to fly the ring to Mount Doom and drop it into the Volcano. Hmmmm? ETA: The only Death Eater who's read the entry on the Evil Overlord list about remembering to kill your antagonist is Vincent Crabbe, apparently.

*I’d love to know the Dark Wizard Harry stories. I’m surprised they haven’t just gotten stronger over the years as the kid’s temper revealed itself. ETA: Given that we never know what actually constitutes Dark Magic, I'm now guessing they were exactly the same as the Non-Dark Harry stories. He's fueled by hate for the people who murdered his parents in both versions.

*Just for the record, to me it seems like Snape’s clearly avoiding all the important truths that we know. Not seeing ESE!Snape here. ETA: To be fair, I'm not seeing PatheticLilyObsessed!Snape here either.

*Snape turns to Narcissa—-finally, we can go on with the story we’re actually in. We’ve already had TWO recaps of the previous books from different points of view.

*This is what bugs me about the theory that “Snape doesn’t know what Draco’s task is, he takes the vow to trick the information out of Narcissa.” She’s about to tell it to him and he stops her. He doesn’t have to trick it out of her. And btw, he doesn’t trick it out of her because once she thinks he knows the task she never mentions it. ETA: Well, at least that's one thing in the books I read right. Three out of 679 isn't bad!

*So, to tally up the water imagery so far, we’ve got the dirty river you can smell at Snape’s house, Narcissa looking like a drowned person and now Snape’s words making her react as if she’s been doused in cold water. Also she’s got tears sliding down her face. Oh, and they’re drinking wine that looks like blood. If Gryffindors were half as enamored with their element as Slytherins are they’d all have spontaneously combusted by now. Hey, is that what's going on with Ginny's blazing look?

*Bella is so 8 years old. I guess it’s not that surprising she can be beat by teenagers. You know about the plan? You? Nyuh-uh!

*Bella couldn’t care less if Narcissa’s son dies. She’ll get her a puppy. Cheer her right up.

*Awww. When Narcissa says Snape’s always been Draco’s favorite teacher I can’t help but think of CoS!Draco—Why don’t you apply for headmaster sir? You’d be the best! And Snape not being able to hide a smile. ETA: Not that that relationship was in any way as real as it seemed to me. Now we know this scene isn't about Snape's feelings for Draco at all. It's all about Dumbledore, foreshadowing the bizarre shift in focus of the next book.

*Gasp! It doesn’t matter to the Dark Lord whether Draco is killed! Honestly, what kind of people are they letting become Dark Lords nowadays if they don’t care about the Draco Malfoys of the world?

*Bellatrix offers up her nonexistent sons to the Dark Lord’s service. Nice.

*More wine, more tears, both spilling on Narcissa.

*Okay, I’ve been reading lots of stuff about Snape being trapped into the bond by Bellatrix. Coming to the close of the chapter I’m seeing Snape completely in control where Bellatrix is concerned. No way he agreed to a vow to get her off his back. ETA: Yeah, that was obvious.

*It also seems like Snape knew what was coming with that third vow, and was already prepared to take care of that twitch. ETA: A twitch about Dumbledore.

*Also, I knew what Draco’s task was the first time reading this scene. Didn’t seem like there could be anything it could be besides kill Dumbledore.

*Well, there we have it. Probably one of the very few defendable chapters in this book.



Cricket Rule
Day-for-Night
This scenes cry out for this stuff, even in a city.

Hero’s Death Battle Exemption
A lot of Snape’s exposition about his plans could boil down to this one. Harry’s not dead because of the Hero’s Death Battle Exemption.

Idiot World
Now that we’ve seen Voldemort’s biggest supporter, is there any doubt this is an idiot world? When they talk about the DEs it sounds like they’re talking about the bunch of people they used to share a cabin with in the mountains or something. Therefore...

Informed Attributes
We’ll just have to take the book’s word for it that they’re scary.

James Bond Exposition Rule
Oh man, now we have to hear the exposition before he’ll even start the plan, much less finish it! I’m giving a pass on the Plot Hole one since we haven’t really seen the end of things yet.

ETA: Rule of Plot Holes
Now that we have seen the end Dumbledore's plan is the dumbest thing ever.

Misdirected Answering
I don’t know about anyone else, but I kind of got the whole “Snape returned to Voldemort a little late” thing at the end of GoF when he made his dramatic exit. There are a lot of things I’d really rather know in this story other than that.

Nut O’ Fun
Confession: I spent most of the time Snape was telling his story of the past five years checking out the bookcases. Big Anne Rice fan, is Snape. ETA: Also Twilight. He laughed and laughed when the werewolf imprinted on the baby to resolve the love triangle. At least Snape didn't do that!

Final score: 8

Water level: Tears, a river, drowned people, cold water, spilled wine that looks like blood.

Comments

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

*Elf-made wine. Now I’m seeing Dobby and Kreacher wrestling in a vat of grapes. Ew.

Somewhere there is p0rn about that along with drawings, photos and paintings of that dirty, momentous event. And Dumbledore is there too, playing an accordian, that was what he hired them for. *wink*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh god, the drawings!

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

In defense of living in his childhood house, I can see the UK real estate market price of a comparable house being unaffordable on a teacher's salary. Especially since we don't know the exchange rate, or about the amount of wage compensation required for living expenses in a hereditary wealth baased, magic-addled economy.

Seriously, Hogwarts probably pays the equivalent of £5 a week. I'd keep the house. But: there's little excuse for not redecorating.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Othere way around. Five pounds to a Galleon.

[(Anonymous)]

Hogwarts probably pays the equivalent of about £5 a week in pure gold.

Wizards shouldn't have any trouble dealing with the muggle economy.

- Dan Hemmens

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

If I get $5 per week, it's form doesn't matter. It's still $5, gold or not. And honestly, gold's been losing it's value consistently, so I'd be a bit miffed at being paid in a depreciating material.

Wizards shouldn't have any trouble dealing with the muggle economy
Why? He's a lower class schoolteacher with no inherited wealth moving from a (best guess) post-feudal economy into a hyper-aggressive capitalist one. Surely there would be problems.

Hermione's family is muggle middle class, and it doesn't show any strain moving the other direction. How much of a disparity can there be? A vault of shiny gold coins looks pretty, but it's not real wealth. Not Bill Gates kinda wealth that resists translation into concrete metaphors.

She never really defined it, so it's hard to say either way. One of my favorite essays on this is here (http://scottneigh.blogspot.com/2006/09/political-economy-in-harry-potter.html).

[(Anonymous)]

If I get $5 per week, it's form doesn't matter. It's still $5, gold or not. And honestly, gold's been losing it's value consistently, so I'd be a bit miffed at being paid in a depreciating material.

The form makes a huge difference. The Wizarding world trades in Galleons, which are large gold coins. A Galleon, in the Wizarding world, seems to have the purchasing power of about a $10, but if we assume that they really are, say, one ounce gold coins, each one is worth nearly a thousand dollars. Even if Snape is paid a measley one galleon a week (which would be a ludicrously small sum, even for a teacher) that still translates to about $50,000 a year in real terms.

[(Anonymous)]

Checking the lexicon, a Galleon does equate to about a fiver's-worth of Wizarding money, so Snape, assuming his pay comes in actual gold, rather than in, I dunno, Borgin and Burke's Credit Notes or something, is raking in nearly a thousand US dollars a week, and that's with a conservative estimate of the weight of a Galleon.

- Dan Hemmens

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

raking in nearly a thousand US dollars a week
Yes. Which is MY income for the last 5 years, and I can't afford a house. A studio apartment, yes. House, no. But if I had inherited a house in a depressed area, I would hold onto it until the area revitalized and the surrounding home values increased.

My galleons estimate might have been off, but my original post was defending Snape's house as a wise financial decision. Which I stick by.

[(Anonymous)]

And that's a bare minimum estimate. According to the lexicon the dragon feeders at Gringotts pull in 7 Galleons per week (so about $350,000 per year in raw gold) and that's presumably an unskilled job.

Of course it's not like Rowling actually bothers to keep track of this stuff *anyway* the Wizarding economy just plain doesn't work.

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

The exchange rate is £5/$9 to One galleon. A unit of currency wouldn't be minted with more value than it trades at. So the amount of gold in a one ounce coin to equal $10/1 gal would be a tenth of an ounce. The other 9/10ths would be binder and filler.

[(Anonymous)]

The point being that gold isn't worth jack in the Wizarding world, they can conjure it from thin air by magic (or duplicate it, trivially) but in the muggle world it's still worth a bomb.

This being the exact problem. Ten galleons has the purchasing power of £50 in the wizarding world, but it should have a scrap metal value of near $10,000 in the Muggle world.

Not that having a cash economy makes any sense when you can produce things out of thin air *anyway*.

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

The point being that gold isn't worth jack in the Wizarding world
Then why would it be currency at all if it's valueless? Why wouldn't coins be made from "un-conger-inium"? If Muggle currency is so deeply devalued, why would Gringotts have an exchange at all? If Hermione's family had so little money by comparison, then why wasn't she the poor one, instead of Ron?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ha! I hadn't noticed the s's. Slytherin turned out to not have any depth but they sure have surface. It's so easy to drape them in imagery.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

>>Not seeing ESE!Snape here. ETA: To be fair, I'm not seeing PatheticLilyObsessed!Snape here either.<<

Nope. This one is the überSnape. Kind of fun. We'd have liked to keep him. But, alas, Rowling waved him under our noses for this book and the opening chapter of DHs and then snatched him away to be replaced by clueless emo!Snape.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

WORD. With hundreds and thousands sprinkled over it.

The worst bit was - so many of her characters were CHILDREN. They were growing up and people change as they grow. If she wanted them to change, all she had to do was make sure they went through big events, then make it clear how they were affected by them. But she didn’t bother. Why?

Hermione, once one of my top three characters, turned into mini Umbridge by Book 5. Yet from being a judgemental, arrogant, self-righteous exposition machine, she became a pathetic, crying exposition machine in book 7. Her one consistency was that she always knew everything. Sadly the days of her studying, and spending time trying to work out puzzles, and brewing long winded and complicated potions in the early books, became ‘accio books on major black magic left lying about in Dumbledores office’ in Book 7.

I always felt that Hermione should have lost her Prefects badge for what happened to Marietta. It would also add some spice to Hermione later leading Umbridge to her fate worse than death in the Forbidden Forest. Allegedly. If Dumbledore refused to give it back when he returned, instead of ending Phoenix as exactly the same type of person as Umbridge, and tiresomely arrogant, she’d have (hopefully) begun to learn the error of her ways and become more sympathetic.

In Book 6, her anger over the Half Blood Prince text-book, should have been more obviously jealousy and insecurity - if she wasn’t the ‘clever one’ then who was she? (Ask Ron!). I know Harry would never be able to work that out, but we didn't pay attention to his thoughts of Snape, did we? Readers would have understood and felt for her - not wanted to smack her one.

Instead her motivations weren't clear. Her jealous resentment of Harry getting praise for copying while she was working so hard (Was she naturally brilliant or just a really hard slogger?) was understandable, if unattractive. However, for the most part, her behaviour was out of character, as she previously would have lapped up this new source of knowledge.

As for Ron/Lavender, she was so over the top (how many months did she refuse to talk to him?)I just felt for him. He rowed endlessly with her over Krum, but never refused to be her friend over it. We have all that to look forward to.

After all this it would make sense if her uncertainty showed through by Book 7, and she was less strident. It would have been a welcome change. However, a little more modesty shouldn't involve washing the boys underpants, but that's another re-cap.

Unlike most characters, Ron's character remained much the same. However, typically for JKR, this was a mistake. Ron experienced things - such as learning to perform really well at Quidditch, winning Gryffindor the Cup, having a girl fall madly in love with him (and another display some hard-core jealousy), yet he never developed any self confidence or self worth. It was ridiculous!

I don't want to talk about Harry.....

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

I always felt that Hermione should have lost her Prefects badge for what happened to Marietta...she’d have (hopefully) begun to learn the error of her ways and become more sympathetic.

In Book 6, her anger over the Half Blood Prince text-book, should have been more obviously jealousy and insecurity - if she wasn’t the ‘clever one’ then who was she? (Ask Ron!). I know Harry would never be able to work that out, but we didn't pay attention to his thoughts of Snape, did we? Readers would have understood and felt for her - not wanted to smack her one.

Obviously, this is all in the eye of the beholder, but I really think I would (still) have come to despise Hermione with this storyline.

A simpler solution, IMO, is for JKR just to have resisted the temptation for the revenge fantasy and left out the Marietta-pimple thing altogether. Then Hermione's crime with Umbridge could have been not thinking particularly well under pressure, which would actually have followed consistently from PS/SS.

Although this makes me wonder whether readers would then have speculated on whether Marietta was incorrectly fingered as the traitor? Maybe that was the real reason for the "SNEAK" pimples.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I actually *did* think that Hermione was cracking under pressure. I wouldn't suggest that Hermione should take revenge on Umbridge for taking her badge. Especially not what happened. No female would lead another one to be 'ravished', surely? Not even JKR, I mean Hermione. No, I'm telling myself she wrongly expected the centaurs to behave logically, but few sentient beings do, especially not Hermione herself.

As for Marietta, I really wish her boils were cured. Their permanent nature, and JKR's lack of regret when asked about it made my blood run cold, and say more than I want to know about her. I also wish it was made clear that Hermione had done it without thinking of the consequences,(again)rather than planned for them to be permanent, then it wouldn't seem so over the top vengeful.

When Dumbles got back, he should have insisted that Hermione not get her badge back that term, and found a cure for Marietta. We were told that Marietta was frightened for her mother, so how could we sympathise with Hermione? Even if was because she was jealous of Cho and Harry, and sneaked out of pure spite, we wouldn't want her permanently scarred. But at least we'd understand that she was supposed to be a baddie. The way it happened, it wasn't at all clear, and was more likely to turn more mature readers against Hermione, not Marietta. Bad writing. Duh.

Also, In 3rd year, when Hermione sneaked on Harry about his broom, what if he and Ron had got the twins to do the same to her? The Yule Ball wouldn't have been so much fun for her then.

It'd have been nice if JKR had resisted the effort to turn Hermione into her own 'I'll show them' machine, but if she had to, it should have been handled so much better. I'm confused by the unfortunate similarities between Umbridge, who was prepared to torture Harry in Fudge's cause, and Hermione, prepared to scar someone for life in Harry's name. If those were deliberate, then JKR should have drawn attention to it and taught Hermione the lessons which would hurt her the most - loss of status/Harry and Ron being aware of her mistakes etc. Then readers could see her learn, grow, become a better person etc. All the things popular in children's literature!

As it stands, I think JKR is totally unaware that she has her own, er Dairy Poo, acting like the Big Bad of Book 5. Hermione is no better than Umbridge, but it's ok for her to act like that, because she's Harry's friend, which is good. Whereas Umbridge is loyal to Fudge who didn't trust Harry, which is bad.

[intotheaether.livejournal.com]

No female would lead another one to be 'ravished', surely? Not even JKR, I mean Hermione.

One would hope not, but JKR seems to have a disturbing amount of self-loathing for her gender. All of the "good" female characters (e.g. Lily, Ginny, and Hermione) are part of the Boys' Club. Maybe I'm just incredibly cynical, but I wouldn't be too shocked if JKR felt Umbridge deserved to be raped by the centaurs because she was so sadistic to Harry (similar to the Marietta incident). I doubt she puts it in those terms to herself, it could be more of a subconscious thing, which I'd hope it is, because what's implied happened to Umbridge makes me nauseous.

Then readers could see her learn, grow, become a better person etc.

Definitely agree with this. I think a Tolkienesque philosophy ('if you try to understand evil, you'll only become evil yourself') might've been interesting to explore in Hermione's story. She's so fascinated at her newfound magic powers that she decides to learn everything she can about them, then when she's older, she studies the "darker" side of magic and slowly becomes evil herself.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Right

And yet, apart from Sirius Black -- who was never the same person twice -- she never put a foot wrong *once* during books 1-4. Absolutely consistent characterization all the way.

Which now seems flat-out *weird*. What the hell happened?

It's like she burnt out, and then couldn't be arsed to come up with plausible reasons for why she wanted puppet A at point B doing action C to shift the plot along.

[sunnyskywalker]

Or maybe it's that GoF problem again - once she got there, she found out things had shifted and she couldn't get them off track... so she made a few tweaks and said, "Hell with it, they'll just have to do what I say because I'm not coming up with a whole new second half to the series!"

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get the feeling this chapter is the most fun Snape has in the whole book. He's probably thinking how cool he seems in it and imagining he's Lucius or something.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Yup. Not that slapping Harry down at the end wasn't some relief as well. But that evening was not *fun*.

On wonders whether he fantasized about being John Steed or some such...

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

*On November 13th Peter Pettigrew was asked to remove himself from his place of residence. That request came from his Dark Lord…. Can two Death Eating men share a house without driving each other crazy?

Hee! I could just picture it. Snape spears the cigar with his broomstick and Peter crushes it with his Super-Powered Silver Hand.

Slytherins have style. No matter what they’re doing, they’ve always got an eye towards the aesthetic.

The wine, the ambience, Narcissa's dramatics, Bella's sneering, Snape peering out the door (What? No pizza?), and poor Peter Gryffindor outclassed.

*So, to tally up the water imagery so far, we’ve got the dirty river you can smell at Snape’s house, Narcissa looking like a drowned person and now Snape’s words making her react as if she’s been doused in cold water. Also she’s got tears sliding down her face. Oh, and they’re drinking wine that looks like blood. If Gryffindors were half as enamored with their element as Slytherins are they’d all have spontaneously combusted by now. Hey, is that what's going on with Ginny's blazing look?

Nothing to add, just wanted to replay this. Slytherins have so much more style!

Didn’t seem like there could be anything it could be besides kill Dumbledore.

I thought he would have to kill Harry, with Bella's going on about that for part of her moaning. It would also have played generational rivals against each other. I didn't know Harry was made of such speshul back in HBP that only Dark Wizards have half a chance at him.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

::sigh:: As lame as they all were, I will always appreciate the Slytherin dramatics in the books where they were about that (instead of about just being cowardly imbeciles.)

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

As opposed to Ginny and Lily's Apparation, which is accompanied by an indescribably lovely sound somewhere between a dimished fifth and the satisfying pop of bubble wrap
You know, before the golden Harry-juice in DH I would have called this sarcastic, but now I bow to your prophetic realism.

*Bellatrix is horrified that Snape lives in a Muggle dunghill.
Actually, the leading branch of her own family lives in a run-down Muggle neighbourhood as well. Ever been to No 12, Bella?

Under the floorboards, much like the Malfoy's panic room, you'd find the Lily Room. It's where Snape keeps all her old hair...
Reading this and with Peter Pettigrew and Polyjuice potion in mind, my thoughts went straight into the gutter...

This is especially funny when you remember that when the "war" starts the entire population will consider it a duty to sit at home and do nothing while 3 teenagers take care of everything.
Although, to be fair, the only one doing anything there is Hermione which is logical because she is the author's insert and helps her along doing everything from off-stage.

The only Death Eater who's read the entry on the Evil Overlord list about remembering to kill your antagonist is Vincent Crabbe, apparently.
LOL! Crabbe for Dark Lord. I suppose, he just lacked confidence, really. He is the Dark Side's Neville!

Gasp! It doesn’t matter to the Dark Lord whether Draco is killed! Honestly, what kind of people are they letting become Dark Lords nowadays if they don’t care about the Draco Malfoys of the world?
Oh, but the point is he DOES care about Draco! Just think of it: a Dark Lord, in the middle of taken over the world. Only one man (and one boy, but that is irrelevant in this case) stands between him and power. And what does he do? Send his most capable minion to accomplish the job? One who is trusted by Dumbledore, has access to him? No. I sits back for one whole year and watches a sixteen year old predictably fail, just to have a reason to kill him and his parents. I thought Dark Lords were not hindered by legal procedures?

[anehan]

You know, before the golden Harry-juice in DH I would have called this sarcastic, but now I bow to your prophetic realism.

That's one of the most off-putting scenes in the whole series. We are being hit on the head by an Anvil the size of Hagrid. Harry's special, we get it. We don't need super special juices to prove it. *gags*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It would have been funny if I thought it was a joke. But it totally wasn't.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I admit my thoughts went to the gutter about the hair too. I didn't mean it when I wrote it but as soon as it was out there...yeah. Poor Peter. The man wanted to die in the end.

LOL! It's true, Voldemort does care enough not just to torment Draco but to give him 9 months of it.

Although, to be fair, the only one doing anything there is Hermione which is logical because she is the author's insert and helps her along doing everything from off-stage.

Good point. Harry and Ron's duty is to wait around in a tent.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I was never a crazy mad fan of Snape (lucky for me the way things turned out). While I thought (and hoped) that Harry was wrong about him, and found him fascinating, he was still an obnoxious bully. Bad teachers can do so much damage. Amusing though the hell he put Harry through was, (Albus Severus my arse), he must have really damaged Neville’s self-esteem. (Sudden ‘character change and rising to the occasion to please the fans’ to suit the plot in the next book, notwithstanding)

However Snape was a rarity in this series - especially towards the end. A true shades of grey character, and I agree with those who thought he was JKR’s best. I remember reading this, thinking he definitely was in control and really getting excited about his vastly important role to come. He was good in HBP, but in DH he unforgivably dropped off the radar .

As for the whole ‘why didn’t you kill Potter in the past 5 years’ question (quite a fair one I think) I’ve said earlier that I had an issue with the way that nobody was allowed to kill Harry Potter except Voldermort, or rather the way that that was handled. The importance of image and ‘respect’ drives people to act in terrible ways in the real world. Sadly in London yesterday or today, an 18 year old got life imprisonment for killing a younger boy because he looked at him the ‘wrong way’. Therefore it could have been totally believable if this had been played up in the book.

This is my earlier quote (cut and pasted - sorry for being lazy!) “Voldemort failed to kill a baby in his cot, and was actually turned into Voldemist. Not impressive. Then, finally in possesion of a body again, he let the whining adolescent escape in full view of his Death Eaters. The Shame! Then he had to run away after the break in at the Ministry. Embarrassing or what? Are Love Sacrifice/Priori Incantatem/Dumbledore to the rescue, reasons or excuses? Couldn’t Dumbledore point out that if someone else succeeded where Voldermort ‘failed’, then he might not like the risk that they’d be seen as the better Wizard? Might even think they were actively trying to set themselves up as such? As a nouveau half blood trying to pass himself off as the crème de la crème, and bestest Wizard ever, you could see why he’d hate the idea“

If this had been made clear in earlier books, then Snape could also have added the ‘I didn’t want to set myself up as a rival’ shtick to Bellatrix in this chapter to shore up his rather vague arguments. I’d have bought it!

I enjoyed this chapter - there was still hope in my heart……

[anehan]

However Snape was a rarity in this series - especially towards the end. A true shades of grey character

Yes. It was so much fun to speculate why he might have changed sides, but the whole Lily!plot spoiled it all. I don't see any shades of grey in his decision to defect because of Lily. He was just obsessed, not a morally grey character.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

As a nouveau half blood trying to pass himself off as the crème de la crème, and bestest Wizard ever, you could see why he’d hate the idea.

If Rowling was going to go for the cartoon schtick in the end (Snape-shaped hole), why not do the typical cartoon villain's deep-voiced (in Voldy's case, high, cold voiced) "Now it's personal" line? Everyone from Bugs Bunny to Megaduck has spouted that line and generations of kids believed and knew the best conflict was yet to come.

While I thought (and hoped) that Harry was wrong about him...

I thought that was how PS/SS was going to play out; then CoS, then PoA... I was waiting for that moment when Harry had to confront Snape. Silly me.

I enjoyed this chapter - there was still hope in my heart……

*sigh* Me too.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Honestly, that's one of the funny things about the wasted Tom Riddle psychological exposition in HBP. Really the only thing Harry needed to know about Tom's psychology he learned in GoF when he insisted on duelling with him to prove he was better. That was pretty much his weak spot all along. And it works as a weak spot.

[(Anonymous)]

While I thought (and hoped) that Harry was wrong about him, and found him fascinating, he was still an obnoxious bully. Bad teachers can do so much damage.

This is what I found so depressing about the way Snape was treated in the later books. The character of Snape tricked me into thinking that JKR's moral universe wasn't utterly black and white and psychotically determinist. The idea that Snape could be both totally horrible but still on the side of Good made up for the rest of the world was divided up into Good People and Bad People.

But no, it turns out he was just Redeemed By Saint Lily.

- Dan Hemmens

[(Anonymous)]

Well, JKR has _said_ repeatedly that Snape was a terrible, terrible teacher, but like so many other things her actual writing doesn't bear it out. Snape was terribly old school, sure, and I don't want to minimize the negative effect it can have on some students. However, his pupils were academically advanced and a quarter of his class got an "O" on the OWLs. Also, it is now certain that at least part of Snape's behavior was necessitated by his knowledge of Voldy's inevitable return and thus his need to maintain an image that would allow him to reenter the fold when it happened.

My guess is that as everything else in these books Rowling saw liking of Harry as the main measure of a teacher's quality. That's why McGonnagal is seen as "fair" despite having been shown to shamelessly favor the trio and various popular bullies before them and to be rather brutal to Neville, who wasn't part of that glittering crowd, at several occasions.

Or why she would have wanted Lupin to teach her children. Yes, the guy who makes a kid face his worst secret fear in front of other children, who used a kid to pick on a disliked colleague (with the result that the already troubled relationship between said individuals got even worse), who for selfish reasons kept back information that should have put all the children and Harry in particular in mortal danger and finally who couldn't adhere to safety regulations that prevented him from tearing children under his care lomb from limb, was, apparently an ideal educator.

Anyway, I do agree that it was painful to have shades of gray snatched away, but IMHO Snape's horribleness always was more in his past rather than in his behavior as a teacher. Why he was often unjust to Harry, I also felt that often he, and not Harry's apologetics, had the point.

[(Anonymous)]

IAWTC. I started out disliking Snape for being OMGMEEN to poor Harry. Two books later I'd become more receptive to his view. I wanted Harry to at least try and meet him halfway, admitting there was room for improvement in Potterland, because the one thing that disarms a Snape is self-deprecation. It hadn't dawned that Harry doesn't have a self-deprecating bone in his body.

If Snape would rein in the insults somewhat and keep in mind that he's supposed to be the grownup here, I think he'd be a very good teacher, if a bit of a martinet. He's protective of his students and has lines he won't cross. By way of comparison, there's a YA novel called Whispers in the Graveyard, also set in Scotland in the 90s. The protagonist's teacher not only rants at him for being "stupid" (he has undiagnosed dyslexia), but deliberately throws a ball in his face during gym class. There's no suggestion that this kind of thing is exceptional.

Not to anticipate PoA, but the Lupin-Snape-Neville situation was another point when the author and I weren't on the same page. Leaving aside that in his pleasant way Lupin was clearly as anxious to score off Snape as to reach out to a student, JKR evidently thought Lupin was handling Neville really well, and I felt he really, really wasn't. I'm with skelkins on all things Neville. With the boy's main ambition apparently being to stay under the radar at all times, shining a spotlight on him wasn't the smartest move.

-L

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

He laughed and laughed when the werewolf imprinted on the baby to resolve the love triangle. At least Snape didn't do that!

But do you want to take best on how long it will be before someone writes a Snarry fic where he does exactly that?

...Oh, who am I kidding? It's already been written, hasn't it?

Water level: Tears, a river, drowned people, cold water, spilled wine that looks like blood.

I wasn't in on the first round of discussion, so could you explain where keeping track of the water level comes from? There certainly does seem to be a lot, but what prompted it?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! And somebody needs to write crack!fic where it happens to Lupin. Like maybe with Tonks and that's why he's dragged into marriage!

The water level must have come out of just noticing that HBP is full of water-imagery and it's the Slytherin book and their element is water. Probably because CoS has a lot of water-logged stuff in it too and that's also a book focused on Slytherin.

The Water Thing

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

Is this from that essay...can't remember who wrote it just now; was it one of Red Hen's?...pointing out that books 3-6 each focus on one particular house? If so, and if JKR did that deliberately, then why does she only use House Element imagery for Slytherin? I don't remember there being tons of fire in PoA, or earth in GoF, or air in OotP. Or did I just not notice it? If she is doing it just for Slytherin, I can't seriously entertain the idea that it's because she likes Slytherin best/finds Slytherin especially interesting. Do you think it's subconscious?

Re: The Water Thing

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It might have been me--I wrote an essay about books 3-6 focusing on the different houses, but I've never noticed elmental imagery except for Slytherin. It's like the best Slytherin gets is when it gets associated with water rather than just evil. There's not a lot of air in OotP or earth in GoF (unless you count the graveyard, maybe, and burying things, but that's not as pervasive as all the water stuff). And PoA doesn't use fire.

I have a hard time thinking she likes Slytherin that much either. I think she might like some of the trappings of Slytherin when she uses them in stories--like the "spooky beauty" of their common room. It's just that usually these elements are cut off from the actual people who make up the house. I figure it probably is unconscious, that she just let her imagination come up with scenes and they happened to always have liquid in them because it seemed right when she was actually getting her Slytherin groove on. This is a rare book where she has to get into the Slytherin pov adn it's the most water-logged.

[anehan]

*Bellatrix makes a louder pop—that’s bad, right? Like her craziness makes it harder to Apparate, or she’s just upset.

I love this. It makes Narcissa seem like a collected person and Bellatrix like an emotional one who can't focus enough to completely control difficult magic. In my private universe, Narcissa was completely in control in this chapter, her tears and emotionalism being just weapons to use to ensure her success. *loves Cissy*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think that's definitely canon. Narcissa is the mother here, after all. Her love is going to make her much stronger than Bellatrix's for Voldemort. Romantic love just makes you an asshole.

[teratologist.livejournal.com]

Rereading these, I'm fascinated by the sheer metaphysical thoroughness by which DH reaches back through time to make everything suck. Perhaps this is the solution to the eternal "killing Hitler" time-travel conundrum; we'll let JKR write him a sequel, and he'll die of character assassination.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! It's both funny and tragic because it's true!

I still remember this book allegedly being the "first half" of the story of the last one. How did that work?

Peter staying there...

[geraldinehome.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't Snape know by now that Peter is really the one who betrayed the Potters? Why on earth is Rowling making him share a house with the man who caused Lily's death?
Or is it that he's had time to get used to the idea, and realised he needed to keep his cover, whereas when he thought Sirius betrayed them he was ready to bring in the dementors?
Or is Rowling just being cruel?

Re: Peter staying there...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Good point--I never read it that way. What's odd about it is that you never see any time where you see how much Snape hates Peter for that. Which might be telling us that Snape really only hated Sirius for being Sirius, but that doesn't really make sense. If Peter was the real traitor Snape should be struggling not to strangle him every moment!

Re: Peter staying there...

[geraldinehome.livejournal.com]

I suspect that Rowling just forgot, which is such a surprise - she never introduces important aspects of a person's character and then forgets it. Ginny's experience in CoS defined her...oh wait.

BTW I just discovered this community, and it's helping alone a very relaxing summer. Read your POA, and most of OotP, and am on chapter 15 of HBP. You are right on just about everything.