[personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
I have been toying with the scenarios here for a long time, but got stuck in ways I could not resolve. So I decided to start posting and see if members of this list can help develop them.

In a previous post I claimed that Harry's luck in winning over Voldemort and surviving came from the work of the Prophecy Demons, hypothesized to be capricious mini-deities who run certain aspects of the Potterverse, especially those that have to do with 'ancient magic', the more mystical aspects of Potterverse magic. Others have proposed that one way these Demons interfere in events is by sending prophecies and then manipulating the fortunes of people who make choices based on knowledge of said prophecies. The rule is that a prophecy that is heard may come true in more than one way, and it ends up unrolling such that both those that seek to benefit from the prophecy coming true and those who seek to avert it fair badly, and it turns out the best line of action is always to do nothing at all based on the prophecy (but who can withstand the temptation?)

In this series I would like to try to work out how events would have turned out had one factor been different: In this case, had Severus Snape decided against reporting the overheard prophecy to Voldemort.

Terri Testing has a fic on her LiveJournal named 'Levicorpus' that starts this out: Severus realizes expecting to benefit from reporting a prophecy is a terrible move that could bite him and those he cares about, so instead he decides to Obliviate a small segment of his memory, just the overheard prophecy, before he goes back to Voldemort to report his failure to get a teaching job. In her fic the first consequence of this choice is Lily using a contraceptive charm in time to prevent Harry from being conceived, though of course, an alternative consequence might have been that Lily's pregnancy lasted a few days longer and Harry was born in early August instead - both scenarios are compatible with the Demons deciding not to punish Severus with the responsibility for Lily's death. In the discussion one idea that came up was that Severus realized he wanted Voldemort vanquished, in which case his most likely option would be to work with the DMLE somehow, with them being the legitimate anti-Voldemort force.

So here are some ideas I had to continue this scenario. There are many holes that need filling, and you are all invited to contribute.

Albus, expecting Severus to deliver the prophecy, would still hire Sybil as in canon, and would report the prophecy to the Department of Mysteries. Where Death Eater Rookwood works. In canon he probably never reported anything about the prophecy to Voldemort prior to the Godric's Hollow attack (or if he did, then for whatever reason Tom was convinced the fragment he heard from Severus was enough for his plans), but in this scenario luck might intervene. Rookwood might alert Tom to the fact that there is a new prophecy record labeled 'Dark Lord and ?' that only the Dark Lord himself can remove from the shelf. The date of the record would match the date of Severus' failed job interview. If Tom were to interrogate Severus he might find that Severus saw Albus going to meet with Sybil and was caught by Aberforth. He might at some point think the prophecy was delivered there, despite the fact that Severus retained no memory of that happening. So if Tom wants to know the contents of the prophecy his options are - go himself to the Department of Mysteries (he might try some other options first, such as possessing someone else, or he might try going there in disguise), or perhaps getting at Sybil (during summer break, when she is out of school?) or Aberforthn (Albus is clearly out of the question, I'm pretty sure). I think the Aberforth option is the only one that has the chance of delivering only part of the prophecy (without the 'and the Dark Lord shall mark him as his equal' part), and I fear for his eventual fate if that's how Tom decides to access the contents of the prophecy. If Tom hears the entire prophecy, would he still feel confident to attack the prophesied one? Is there a scenario where he gets the prophecy record (or Sybil) but still hears only part of the prophecy? Hmm. In the DOM battle, when prophecy records break we don't hear the entire prophecies do we? So maybe Voldemort gets the Prophecy record, but the Demons intervene to have him drop it, so he only hears a select part of it? (I am warming up to this scenario - frustrated Dark Lord with nobody to blame but himself.)

If Tom decides to act to avert the prophecy his most likely candidate in this AU would be Neville. We can't assume a scenario involving the Longbottoms would evolve the same as the canon scenario involving the Potters, because these are different people with different circumstances. Frank and Alice were trained Aurors, and whatever we think of Frank, there is no basis to assume he was part of a closed group that had been hiding things from Albus since school days. Frank and Alice were likely very close to Moody, who in turn was Albus' right-hand man and chief of operations within the Order. (He stands next to Albus in the photo, he runs the rota for guarding the DOM in OOTP, he runs Harry's removal from 4PD in OOTP and DH.) So the Longbottoms would be more likely to follow whatever plan Albus proposes for their safety. Also, as trained Aurors they would be more disciplined in sticking to whichever line of action is chosen. And Tom's spy within the Order is still Peter, who is not close to the Longbottoms and has no influence on them. So if Albus proposes to be their Secret Keeper they would take the offer and stick to it.

In that case the Demons would be somewhat limited, but there is still a way for the protection of the Longbottoms to be compromised: We know that the death of the Secret Keeper turns all those who know the Secret into Secret Keepers. So if the Demons want to give Tom an opening to attempt at averting the prophecy they can get Albus to die. It can be just a simple medical issue, unrelated to the war. (In which case the Elder Wand ends up masterless.) Or it could happen in a way that is more causally related to his role in letting the prophecy out - any ideas? Suddenly all the Longbottoms' close friends and family, whoever they had requested to be included in the knowledge of their secret, can reveal their location if they are captured and interrogated by Tom, or if a DE holds onto them as they Apparate to the Longbottom home - plenty of scenarios where the Longbottoms can be attacked by surprise despite following best security practices as known to them.

Back to Severus: Let's say he starts spying on Tom and the Death Eaters for the Ministry. I expect Crouch's DMLE to be more pragmatic than Albus in utilizing Severus' information, including the existence of the Dark Mark, so perhaps some arrests of DEs happen earlier than in canon, and at least while Tom exists in his original body these DEs are less likely to be able to talk their way out of Azkaban, the way Bella did at some point in canon (unless she managed to blackmail Crouch with a threat that someone was going to expose his son?).

At some point Tom would want Severus to apply for the DADA position at Hogwarts once more. Goal number one would be to obtain the sword of Gryffindor for Tom's last intended Horcrux. This likely happens while Albus is still alive. Albus would know that Tom has a collection of ancient wizarding objects (though he still has no idea what for) so if he suspects that DE Severus is after the sword he would find a way to let Severus steal a fake sword. It is possible that after getting the (fake) sword Tom would assign Severus to kill Albus (which would in turn release the Secret of the Longbottoms' location), and either this happens (making Severus the unknowing master of the Elder Wand) or Severus is somehow suspected in Albus' death regardless of his actual responsibility - either scenario would force him to leave the school. (Which scenario do the Demons prefer? I think Severus should be in their good books for his choice to suppress the prophecy, so perhaps they wouldn't push him too hard to rip his soul) I hope he can clear his name or at least avoid a prison sentence, because there is so much he can do via the Ministry (and I really don't want him in Azkaban, please no!). We see in Igor's hearing that Crouch was more than willing to cut deals with known murderers if it served him, so I see an opening for Severus here, even if he does serve some time (or perhaps Crouch avoids his imprisonment but holds it over Severus' head as a threat, sounds like him?)

With an intended Horcrux object and access to the Longbottoms Tom would plan his attack - probably shortly after Albus' death, while both Hogwarts and the Order are still in a state of confusion. I do not know what would cause him to give one or both of the Longbottoms a chance to sacrifice themselves and how that takes place rather than the 2 of them dying while dueling in a 'fair' fight, but somehow Neville ends up as a child-Horcrux, marked as Tom's equal, while Tom discorporates. Without Albus around to interfere, Neville is raised by his remaining relatives. (Does Wizarding Britain celebrate Neville Longbottom Day, or is it Frank and Alice Longbottom Day?)

OK, what do you think? Does this make sense? Any ideas for improvements?
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (Default)
[personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Trelawney probably made her prophecy sometime between the fall of 1979 and early spring 1980. Harry and Neville were born in July 1980. So why did it take Voldemort until October 1981 to even try to kill one of them? Was he waiting for a significant date? Were the Potters and the Longbottoms just that well-hidden?

Or maybe we aren’t giving Voldemort enough credit.

We readers are introduced to the prophecy in its entirety, years after Dumbledore and Voldemort have decided who the subject is. So it seems obvious that Voldemort should have targeted babies as soon as they were born at the end of July. But was it obvious then?

Dumbledore is the one who says—in 1996, with the benefit of hindsight—that there were only ever two possible prophecy-boys, and that Voldemort “chose” Harry as the greater threat rather than just, say, going after whichever baby he got access to first.Does anyone here believe Dumbledore's every word without question? I didn't think so. )
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (Default)
[personal profile] sunnyskywalker
I've been frustrated for years that the prophecy seems exactly backwards: it says "neither can live while the other survives," when what we see is that neither Harry nor Voldemort can die while the other survives. How can you make that work even with all the wiggle room inherent in prophecy bafflegab? It's just backwards!

D'oh. What's one thing Potterverse wizards have that we don't? Proof that souls exist, and almost certainly an afterlife too. They don't have to take it on faith. Souls can be sucked out, ripped, and torn to pieces. Wizards can sit next to the Veil and listen to the voices of the dead.

The prophecy didn’t mean neither of them could live in their mortal bodies while the other survives. It meant that because they couldn't die, neither could go to their eternal lives.

Does this really work? I keep feeling I must be missing something. Like a giant gaping hole somewhere that blasts all possible interpretations to pieces. [livejournal.com profile] mary_j_59? Anyone?
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (Default)
[personal profile] sunnyskywalker
I was re-reading some old DTCL posts, and started wondering about prophecies. Specifically, about what a young, Dark Arts-curious wizard might know--or believe--about how they work.

Divination class, as we see, teachings more indirect predictive methods, such as reading tea leaves and cystal-gazing. Actively channeling... something... to deliver a prophecy isn't taught as far as we know, and likely can't be. Moreover, that particular method seems to be rather obscure. An official Mystery, in fact.

But there are literary depictions of prophecies. And both Shakespeare and Sophocles lived before the Statute of Secrecy, and their works might be find in wizarding libraries regardless of their authors' actual magical abilities or lack thereof. Their depictions of how prophecies usually work may have been based on fact. At least in part.

Would a geeky young wizard combing through every reference he could find to the Dark Arts read Macbeth and Oedipus the King, one wonders? As part of being thorough? And wonder if, perhaps, trying to prevent a prophecy from coming true really will not only be futile, but might even be the very means by which the prophecy will come to pass? Or at least, the attempt could make the prophecy come to pass sooner than it otherwise would have?

Hypothetically, if such a young wizard overheard part of a prophecy while trying to apply for a job, on his terrifying new master's orders--perhaps with some vague hope of using the opportunity to switch sides, but scared off by the opposition's disdain--would he at least have reason to hope that delivering said prophecy to the terrifying master would actually be a way to strike a blow? A desperate hope, for desperate circumstances? (He'd surely noticed by then how, erm, suboptimal the working conditions under Voldemort were.)

When Severus told Voldemort that a prophesied enemy could defeat him, what exactly did he think might happen should Voldemort respond by trying to kill that enemy?

Very possibly, something more than just that enemy getting AK'd.

Very possibly, the same thing Dumbledore thought might happen: Voldemort would be arrogant enough to think he could outwit a prophecy, and would destroy himself in trying to prevent it.

Then Severus and all his friends could put that nightmare behind them, without having to risk their lives and their families (like, say, the expected Baby Malfoy). Whew! Brave, but saving their necks if possible.

How unfortunate that this turned out to mean Sev's childhood best friend would die in the process! But then, he should have known better. Trying to manipulate a prophecy is liable to rebound on one, after all. Yet another reason for him to wish he had died, afterward.

If he'd just kept his mouth shut, might Harry have been born in the wee hours of the morning of August 1?
[identity profile] sweettalkeress.livejournal.com
[Harry touches down in Dumbledore’s office]

Read Chapter 37 )
*A/N: In all seriousness, if you’re talking to someone who’s grieving you NEVER EVER EVER want to tell them you know how they feel! Not even if you lost someone close to you as well! 
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (Default)
[personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Good to know other people out there are also still analyzing the series and not finding the ending satisfying!

The Awesome Harry Potter ending JK Rowling didn't even know she had

The quick version for everyone who doesn't want to click through: a reasonable twist interpretation of "either must die at the hand of the other" is that in order to die, Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of the other--that is, there isn't any other way for them to die. So by killing Voldemort, Harry loses any chance of ever dying himself and becomes forever The Boy Who Lived... which means that he sacrifices any chance of being reunited with his dead friends and family in the wizarding afterlife.

I have to say, this one hadn't occurred to me, but it's an interesting idea, assuming you could get the mechanics to work well enough not to distract from the drama. I'll have to give it some more thought. Immortal!Harry might be a little too terrifying an ending...
[personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
It has been a while since I posted in this series. This posting continues my interpretation of the sequence of events described in part 3

The next turning point is, of course, Sybil's first known prophecy. We do not know exactly when it was made, but we know the academic year 1979-80 was in session (based on Sybil's claim to have been teaching 'nearly sixteen years' in September 1995. Read more... )
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[identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Up a little early because I'm going out of town tomorrow.

Professor Trelawney’s Prediction )

Jabootu Scores )

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