deathtocapslock | Boggart Inconsistency

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Boggart Inconsistency

If I understand PoA correctly, Harry's Dementor-boggart both affects Harry and reacts the way a real Dementor would (magically speaking).

That is, what Harry experiences when confronting his Boggart is the same as what he does when confronting a Dementor: physical cold, hopelessness, loss of consciousness accompanied by access to memories (from where ever) that were previously consciously inaccessible. Moreover, he's told that his Patronus (if he could cast it strongly enough) could keep the Boggart at bay as it would a Dementor.

Say what? Lupin's Boggart is the moon, but he doesn't turn into a werewolf under its rays (or PoA, and the HP series, would have ended much sooner). Seamus's is a banshee, but Lupin doesn't seem worried the kids will all die if it screams.

And Lupin doesn't suggest to anyone else, even as a theoretical consideration, that the Boggart-in-the-shape-of-one's-fear might also possibly be banished or deflected by whatever spell would banish or destroy the feared object--Sectumsempra for Ron's spider, Un-ravel-us for the mummy, Evanescoing the corpse for Mrs. Weasley....

No, it's Riddikulus or nothing. For them, not for Harry.

Anyone come up with a Watsonian way to make this one consistent?

(And, btw, how come when Harry's anti-Dementor lessons with Lupin resulted in no improvement over time, nothing but his feeble patronus repeatedly "draining Harry of energy as he fought to keep it there," he never wondered if Lupin was secretly on Voldemort's side and trying to sabotage the lessons?)

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(And, btw, how come when Harry's anti-Dementor lessons with Lupin resulted in no improvement over time, nothing but his feeble patronus repeatedly "draining Harry of energy as he fought to keep it there," he never wondered if Lupin was secretly on Voldemort's side and trying to sabotage the lessons?)

Because Lupin is soooo nice to him, unlike evil Snape, he couldn't possibly be Voldemort's man.

Harry expected Remus' lessons help him succeed at playing Quidditch, so Remus must have been cool and good. Success at Severus' lessons would have made the Voldievisions go away which Harry didn't want, so obviously Severus was his enemy.

Exactly! Like Professor Moody, so helpfully giving Harry hints and assistants/assistance to win the Triwizard.

Maybe boggarts and dementors are related species, magically speaking, so spells that affect one will affect the other. That is to say, a patronus will drive off either a dementor or boggart-in-dementor form (or any other form, for that matter) and 'Riddikulus' can do likewise, or at least hurt them. The difference might be in which charm is most *effective,* or else, which charm is easiest to pull off given the slightly different emotional manipulations the two creatures use.

General question: I think I read somewhere (Jodel?) that the dementors may have been specifically bred for use as Azkaban guards from several extant magical creatures, including boggarts. Does anyone else remember that theory, or have any thoughts on what other the implications might be if true?

I like that idea a lot. I actually think it really sucks that the wizarding world has no taxonomy or classification system like we've got- it would have made the whole thing so much more believable (of course, this is Rowling we're talking about, so we should probably be scared if one of those ever did surface).

Screw that, Rowling's taxonomy would look something like:

Good creatures: Puffskein, Kneazle, and anything that is beneficial to us.

Dark creatures: Anything from Red Caps to Basilisks!

What creatures can breed with one another?

Anything that looks similar or does similar things! Oh, but a Good creature can never mate with a Dark creature because that would create a bubble of negative antimatter and blow up the world!

What creatures can breed with one another?

Anything that looks similar or does similar things!

Blast-Ended Skrewts are bred from manticores (lions with scorpion tails and human heads) and Fire Crabs (fire-breathing tortoises with jewelled shells).

Oh, right. Looks like I gave Rowling too much credit even with the already-quite-minimal credit I gave her....

----I think I read somewhere (Jodel?) that the dementors may have been specifically bred for use as Azkaban guards from several extant magical creatures, including boggarts. Does anyone else remember that theory, or have any thoughts on what other the implications might be if true?

Yes, there's some discussion of this on Jodel's site at the bottom of redhen-publications.com/Premature.html.

Maybe a dementor is the natural state of a boggart; it's the result of experimentation to find out what a boggart would look like if it couldn't shape-shift based on people's fears. But the result of taking away a boggart's ability to shape-shift is that the riddikulus spell no longer works on it, since that involves transforming the boggart into something amusing.

If a dementor is the natural state of a boggart, then a boggart will take on its true appearance in Harry's presence.

This might help to explain Lupin's "what you fear most of all is — fear" comment. A boggart doesn't change into anything for Harry because what Harry fears most is boggarts/dementors.

Yes, that would work.

Pity J didn't put such thought into it!

If this is the case, it implies that boggarts are sapient creatures* and Lupin dragged one out to be slowly killed. Which isn't entirely inconsistent with his personality (he even gets to sit back and not directly participate, just like he did with his friends).

* It also implies that Lupin was risking the souls of his pupils for this little amusement. Moving up from lives to souls is somewhat worrying.

----If this is the case, it implies that boggarts are sapient creatures

That's assuming that dementors are sapient, which I don't think is entirely clear.

Neither dementors nor boggarts are included in FB, though, which suggests that both are classified as beings rather than beasts. So boggarts might be sapient even if they're completely unrelated to dementors.

----It also implies that Lupin was risking the souls of his pupils for this little amusement.

Not necessarily. It might be that the ability to suck souls is also the result of experimental breeding.

That's assuming that dementors are sapient, which I don't think is entirely clear.

They can be communicated with. Voldemort can appeal to them and explain how under his rule they'll have no feeding restrictions. It's very likely they're sapient.

Neither dementors nor boggarts are included in FB, though, which suggests that both are classified as beings rather than beasts.

Or they're Spirits - we don't know what the dividing line is.

That makes good sense as well looking at the symbolism. Boggarts and Dementors are basically represent fear and negative feelings* respectively, and these are both things whose impact can be lessened by focusing on positive thoughts.

However in GoF, Harry encounters a Dementor-Boggart in the Third Task; instead of working on him like the Dementor-Boggart in the previous book did, it trips and stumbles, showing itself to be a fake which Harry could banish with a simple 'Riddikulus'.
Is there any way of making *this* consistent? No, I didn't think so.

*Although this itself would probably comprise of fear much of the time. It's hard to make a distinction between the two - Jodel's/danny's idea fits with this nicely.

Maybe they only affect the person's fear.

So they simulate the fear, but they can't actually hurt you?

You think you are seeing a dementer and feeling its powers but it's your own mind?

That was my original thought, that it was all in Harry's head, but then there'd be no reason for the Patronus to affect the Boggart the way it would a Dementor(still less for Lupin to expect it to).

A Patronus might provide a placebo effect, or if corporeal a physical defence, but then the Boggart-Dementor was temporarily blocked by a misty Patronus so that theory doesn't seem to hold water.

But if the effects of boggarts are entirely psychosomatic, wouldn't the entire class have been in mortal danger when it was their turn to face the boggart? Most of the monsters it turned into were potentially lethal, and not all in the slice'n'dice you way. For instance, if when it turned into banshee it had started to scream, would the student it was responding to have died in fright of what they *assumed* the effects would be, even if the rest of the students pulled through? Just how complete are any of its transformations?

Positing this level of verisimilitude to the target form seems inconsistent with Hogwarts' policy of plausible deniability when endangering students. Besides, my impression of the boggarts' shape-shifting abilities were that they were first and foremost a defense-mechanism designed to Scare Away potential threats, much like many insects mimic the markings of more lethal creatures to deter predation.

Sigh, kinda sad to discover it's a plot hole.

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Boggart Inconsistency

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So nice

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Dementors/boggarts related

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Your own mind

Re: Your own mind

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