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deathtocapslock2009-01-30 10:25 am
sistermagpie.livejournal.com) wrote in deathtocapslock2009-01-30 10:25 am
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HBP Chapter Twenty-Seven
*Warning: This is the chapter where stuff actually happens, so it’s one of the good ones imo.
*Harry’s pretty much mastered this Apparition thing over the last few pages. An hour ago he wasn’t sure he could get himself to the right place. Now he’s teleporting half-dead old guys with him. All you need is confidence!
*ETA: Recently I ran into the suggestion that Harry's ability to do Crucio was partly down to Draco's wand being so familiar with it, which to me reads like a neat way of sloughing off anything bad about the good guys onto Slytherins again. Anyway, I mention it here because one of the arguments for it was that Harry hadn't practiced Crucio a lot in between his attempt at Bellatrix and the one at Snape in this book, so the fact that it worked well is some sort of plot hole. I argued that sometimes Harry is given a long-term block about a spell that then works when he needs it. Here's another one.
*Harry knows the Apparition worked before he opens his eyes, because the smell of sea air is gone. It doesn’t occur to him that there are millions of places on earth that don’t smell of sea air, and yet are not Hogsmeade.
*ETA: If this were Ron, he'd defintely be in one of those places right now.
*Bizarrely, that concept made me suddenly imagine Harry and Dumbledore accidentally popping into the Dursleys’ bedroom as they were having sex.
*ETA: Whoa! I didn't remember that popping into my head before. Yipes!
*Dumbledore needs Professor Snape. I’ve nothing to say about this, but I’ve heard it repeated so often since this book came out I feel like I should mention it. This chapter will have a lot of that.
*ETA: But don't worry, we'll stop hearing about Snape after this book's over.
*Hmmm…I just noticed that he starts out saying he needs Professor Snape but when he fades out starts calling for Severus, his first name, the more intimate one. The name he knew him by as a student?
*ETA: Err...I gues so. But not because he likes the guy, he just likes talking to everybody like he did when they were students because it reminds him he's in charge. He's only calling him Snape in front of Harry because he wants Harry to remember Snape's a teacher. He doesn't think of him that way himself.
*Funny nobody else in town notices the honkin’ great Dark Mark or is up in arms about it. Just the saucy barmaid who of course wears high-heeled fluffy slippers. And is called Madam.
*I love the little moment for Harry to demonstrate how great he is at summoning brooms. I won’t ask why Rosemerta, who’s also a witch, had to offer to run for them in her three inch mules.
*What would have happened if the pub door was shut with a catch? Would the brooms have broken the door and splintered themselves with it?
*One thing about Harry, he’s consistent. If something’s happened he’ll be thinking about how he caused it. He refers to getting his "friends" killed, which ironically doesn’t make Sirius come to mind.
*ETA: Btw, I could swear recently I read some random comment where someone referred to Harry "moping" about Sirius throughout this book. It seemed to be a serious comment too.
*I really do love the moment where Dumbledore freezes Harry and gets his own wand expelled for it—which is actually a good thing in a weird way, for everyone involved I suspect.
*ETA: ::sigh:: Yeah, that would be the Elder Wand. The big importance of that moment really has nothing to do with Dumbledore making a mistake or opening himself up to attack by freezing Harry.
*I’m sure many readers are wistfully thinking about how nice it would have been if other people had thought to do that to Harry in earlier scenes.
*Unfortunately, with Harry immobilized, Dumbledore must face his greatest challenge yet. A challenge he’s avoided throughout the entire series thus far. Dumbledore must…seriously converse with a student who isn’t Harry! Eeeeeeek!
*JKR’s working really hard to show signs of Draco’s inner turmoil in his physical appearance, but telling me he’s panting is kind of weird.
*ETA: But I'll bet
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sydpad would illustrate Draco wonderfully in this scene. *Clever little "you seem unsupported" line from Albus, suggesting that Draco can’t really depend on DE backup.
*Dumbledore’s using "Draco" right and left in the scene, but the narrator stubbornly sticks to Malfoy, thanks!
*Does Malfoy know what the Order of the Phoenix is? Not that it would be hard to figure out. Saying the Order of the Phoenix in this context would have to be like saying the League of Justice had arrived or something. They’re not likely an a cappella group.
*ETA: Oh man, the Justice League would have taken care of all of this so easily.
*You really have to give up any hope of being a murderer when you have to try to convince someone verbally that you even meant the times you almost killed somebody before.
*When Malfoy seems paralyzed Dumbledore suggests he’s afraid to act until the DEs join him—that’s sure to do the trick. You can get a wizard to do anything by calling him chicken.
*Poor Draco doesn’t even really know how to play the part of a badass killer. "It’s you who should be scared!" is about as threatening as telling Dumbledore that he’s rubber and Dumbledore is glue.
*ETA: God, this scene is hard to read in retrospect. People often talk about stuff from DH being written before the rest of the series, like suggesting that JKR had a lot of ideas for where it was going and just stuck with them? I've no idea how much that's true, but I can believe it reading stuff like this. I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
*Okay, I’m going to try to keep track of Malfoy’s physical descriptions to get the change here. So far first he’s panting from the exertion of getting himself to this place. Then he’s frozen, sort of in denial. Then he goes into some childish attempts at posturing that still suggest that he sees himself as having done something significant to Katie and Ron.
*ETA: Not that any of this has as much significance as it seems to at all. Best I can figure in retrospect, he's moving to a place of giving up in this scene and not much else.
*DD asks Malfoy how he got the Cabinet to work and Malfoy looks like he’s fighting the urge to shout or vomit. Was that his attempt to find the killer within? He gulps and has to take deep breaths before he can speak again, and I don’t think it’s directly in response to Dumbledore asking him about the Cabinet. That seems like a happier sort of memory.
*ETA: Or maybe it's just fear he's fighting through the scene and occasionally he comes close to wetting his pants or throwing up and just avoids it.
*Montague nearly died Apparating himself out. NEARLY DIED DOING IT I SAID.
*ETA: And I'm sure that will be important. Right? Oh wait...
*Does anyone else find it strange that of all the would-be student murderers at Hogwarts the two Slytherins so far seem the only ones to acknowledge themselves as such? I was
*ETA: Because he's a pansy. See, when Harry almost causes a death accidentally he just reminds himself he was in the right and is totally innocent and forgets about it.
*I love Draco drawing comfort and courage from Dumbledore’s praise. He’s good enough, he’s smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like him.
*ETA: He's an idiot.
*Heh. I think the comfort and courage is what gives Malfoy the ability to be sulky when Dumbledore brings up his feebler murder attempts. Yeah, well. That could’ve happened to anybody!
*So following Malfoy’s stages, he’s sick, but then draws comfort from being reminded he’s not a total screw up. Enough that Dumbledore can get back to the "you are not a killer" theme with Malfoy actually able to follow him.
*When Draco says "Why didn’t you stop me?" he actually does seem to be potentially doing more than challenging Dumbledore’s claim to have known it was him all along. I wonder what he does mean there, but it’s one of those rare times JKR keeps it ambiguous without even an adverb!
*ETA: Or maybe he was just challenging him.
*Now we get into Draco the Sulky Teen again when he talks about Snape. Though again we don’t get the usual adverbs to tell us exactly how Draco is delivering every single line. Is he angry at Dumbledore for being taken in by Snape? Are the lines about Snape’s "wanting a bit of the action?" Draco trying to rub Dumbledore’s face in it?
*ETA: Does it matter? Not really. Draco and Snape don't mean much to each other.
*This seems to get Draco a bit carried away, crowing about how great it’s going to be—if only he could actually do the thing he’s not going to do in a million years.
*Kind of cool the way Draco’s livelier in response to role models. He draws strength from impressing DD, and is just determined to show up Snape.
*ETA: Which just shows how pathetic he is. Kids can't overtake their role models, Draco! You were lost the moment you envisioned yourself as even being at their level. Look at how nicely Harry continues to look up to Dumbledore and trust him to know what's best even after he's dead.
*Yup, the one thing that Draco seems practically drunk on in this scene is not being a fuck up. Ha ha! I did good! I surprised you and Snape! I rock! Can I go home now?
*ETA: I miss this Draco.
*Filch would of course not check a bottle from Rosemerta. A nice illustration of why racial profiling doesn’t work.
*Okay, now Malfoy’s shaking again. Was it hearing people downstairs that reminded him of his real position? The fact that DD is going over the mead and the necklace? Or just we need to wrap this up so start shaking, kid.
*Malfoy admits to getting the coin idea from the DA with a twisted smile. Love the twisted smile. It’s fitting but could mean so many different things.
*ETA: None of which are important, natch.
*I always say this, but really I think Dumbledore’s telling Draco not to use the word Mudblood here is somehow important. At least I hope it is. Ironically, it’s like the only time someone’s ever seriously said something to him about the word. Usually the Gryffindors just get angry and say DON’T CALL HER THAT! Which is exactly what he’s going for in using the word.
*Nope. Not important. Except to remind us how awesomely non-bigoted Dumbledore is, I guess.
*Awww. Now Draco’s tasting the bitterness of knowing he’s not a killer.
*I love the way Malfoy has to point out everything he’s done right ever—we put up the Dark Mark to have you come up here. And it worked! I should get house points for that part!
*Malfoy’s voice goes up an octave at the idea of a member of the Order dead. Seriously, isn’t it rather bizarre to have your bad guy so much more sensitive about the death of anyone than your good guys?
*ETA: Coward!
*Re-reading this I can’t believe I have spoken to people in fandom who actually think Dumbledore is trying to talk Malfoy out of the murder he’s totally about to commit in the scene, reasoning with him as if trying to calm some deadly animal. Could JKR have made it more obvious the one thing that can’t happen in this scene is that Draco will kill Dumbledore? That’s sort of the point, the reason we can be wondering what on earth will happen.
*ETA: Okay this, at least, remains true. Though just last week I read somebody who said that if Snape hadn't intervened Draco would have killed Dumbledore. Seriously guys, if there's one thing that Draco is not? It's a murderer. It's like the one thing that carries over into the next book.
*And now we finally get to Draco’s Dilemma that he can’t consider not killing Dumbledore only because he and his family will be killed if he doesn’t.
*ETA: I guess he doesn't love them as much as Harry loves his parents. Where's the revenge, there, Draco?
*Still wincing at the sound of Voldemort’s name I see, Malfoy! Good to know…even if I will never really get it except in certain fanfics.
*ETA: I certainly won't get it after DH. Why the hell do people flinch at his name? Why does Dumbledore not tell anyone his real name? Is it really setting up Harry's desperate attempt to get the plot moving again in DH by saying the name once it's got a trace on it?
*ETA: Btw, that trace on the name? Makes it an even better idea for everybody to say Voldemort whenever they want. If everybody's saying it the trace does little good. (Though we wouldn't have a handy way of identifying the bravest people then so maybe it's not worth it.)
*No harm done, nobody’s been hurt. I repeat the line I quoted earlier: Yeah, you took real good care of that August kid!
*I would so love to see Lucius Malfoy’s face when he learned his kid had gotten him protection and an out of the DEs. My kid? Are you sure?
*You know, I’ve gotten used to talking to people who assume Draco’s got to have outside DE help with the whole Rosemerta caper, but does he? The book seems to suggest it might just be him.
*ETA: Still no clue. But then, the way all this comes to nothing in DH the whole thing almost seems like a dream anyway.
*Btw, you'd think that a barmaid with nice tits and high heeled fuzzy slippers and all would need to be a hell of a lot better at throwing off Imperius, wouldn't you? What else has this woman had to do for people lately?
*You know, the last moment of the DD/Malfoy scene is so deliberately written (as is the later bit with Snape) I don’t get people re-writing it: Malfoy says he has no option. Dumbledore offers him one. Malfoy goes over how far he’s come, how he came close to succeeding, because he’s saying good-bye to that alternate self who was supposed to be the successful Death Eater. By going over that before lowering his wand it’s a conscious rejection from a place of strength. He’s not just running to DD because he’s completely helpless, he’s choosing.
*ETA: Did I say place of strength? Well, it can't be that because Malfoy can't have any strength. Maybe it's just a place of submission. He's admitting that he'd prefer to be protected. Just be a child forever. That'll work.
*Once I spoke to someone who literally re-wrote the scene to be the opposite: Malfoy lowered his wand, and then said the bit about getting that far, and then raised the wand again and spent the rest of the scene trying to kill DD only he couldn’t aim because he’s a big sissy.
*ETA: He is a big sissy, of course, but let's be clear what kind.
*Amycus and Alecto are like little Campbell soup kids gone wrong. How could anyone spend much time with the Death Eaters? They’re all total freaks except for Snape and Lucius!
*Dumbledore explains he’s practicing manners. Well, Alecto’s practicing good manners too, DD. If we go by your example at the Dursleys in chapter 3, DD.
*Who thinks Draco’s ever been able to be in the same room with Fenrir for more than thirty seconds before needing to run away and take an herbal bath?
*ETA: Ah, Fenrir. Another character who seemed a lot more sinister than he was. But then, what DE actually is sinister when you get to know them?
*Is Fenrir bleeding? Or does he keep a blood capsule in his mouth just for smiling obscenely and licking his lips?
*You know, Fenrir would have made a far better boggart for Lupin. Imagine if that guy had popped out of that wardrobe!
*ETA: That would have been awesome.
*ETA: I think we all know what would pop out of that wardrobe for Lupin now: Tonks in a neglige with a baby at her breast demanding he satisfy her sexually.
*Dumbledore says he’s shocked Draco would bring Fenrir to a place where his friends live. Silly, Dumbledore—Slytherins don’t have friends!
*Everyone pay attention, please! Draco Malfoy just asserted his actual personality in saying he didn’t want Fenrir to come instead of loudly proclaiming this is great by him! It’s his last line in the book, and probably the first honest one!
*Draco’s looking into Dumbledore’s face now—like he’s a person and all.
*ETA: Dammit, this scene actually is *good*. And deserving of far better follow through than DH. There, I said it.
*Amycus reminds us that Death Eaters are almost all, to a man, dim-witted.
*I see no reason for Fenrir to be a Muggle. Just mentioning that as a response to many theories on this that I’ve seen, including some that claim his DE robes not fitting well means he must have borrowed them from a wizard.
*Snape enters with a large can of whoop-ass and he’s not afraid to use it.
*Snape does not enter with a look of hatred on his face. This is the other bit of the scene that keeps getting rewritten to fit how people want it to go. He walks in and looks around neutrally, and Dumbledore pleads immediately. Not in response to Snape’s look of hatred, in response to Snape’s mere appearance.
*Everyone falls back, awed by the Shaft-like coolness that is Snape. So much cooler than James Potter. Sorry, James.
*ETA: Oh man, sorry James indeed. I think you win the coolness competition in the end. Snape loses a lot of points in DH.
*OMG Snape killed Dumbledore!!!111!!
*Yipes! Just had a flashback to a theory about how the skull by Dumbledore at the end is clearly a reference to Golgotha. As if any author in their right mind would miss having Dumbledore suspended under a glowing green snake skull at his moment of death!
*ETA: So Dumbledore's dead now. I guess he'll leave the story. Not.
*ETA: Wow, this chapter really loses everything after DH. It's not even a Lightning Struck tower like it seemed. It seemed like a moment where everything fell apart so now our heroes would have to step up and figure out a way to triumph. Instead it was just one more step in Dumbledore's Incredible Irritating Plan. We could have avoided it all and just had Harry grab Dumbledore's wand for some reason somewhere.
The Borgnine Proviso
JKR created a lumpy Death Eater just for Ernest Borgnine!
Foley Work
Footsteps and crashes, mostly, to punctuate the right moments in the conversation.
Designated Hero
Not that Harry does anything bad here, but when any chapter where your hero is petrified is a good chapter, you might want to think about it.
Idiot World
Not a single one of these Death Eaters besides Draco and Snape seems able to understand a simple pun much less take over the world.
James Bond Exposition Rule
But turned on its head, since Draco’s exposition is explicitly a way to avoid killing. Which is probably why his victim winds up dead while Dr. No’s wind up alive.
I can’t believe I can’t give this chapter either of Ken’s Rules of High Altitude Mortality! Dumbledore doesn’t shriek and he flies backwards! There’s no rule for floating suspended in the air for a moment. Also, maybe because Harry’s frozen, there’s not much misdirected answering.
"Watermelon, watermelon, cantaloupe, cantaloupe"
Watermelon, watermelon, THEY’VE BLOCKED THE STAIRS cantaloupe, cantaloupe, Ack! Zap! Bang! Order of the Phoenix powers activate!
Final score: 6
Slytherin Liquid Count: No actual liquid, but drinking is referenced, as is the deadly potion.
What -- two parts?
*ETA: Recently I ran into the suggestion that Harry's ability to do Crucio was partly down to Draco's wand being so familiar with it, which to me reads like a neat way of sloughing off anything bad about the good guys onto Slytherins again. Anyway, I mention it here because one of the arguments for it was that Harry hadn't practiced Crucio a lot in between his attempt at Bellatrix and the one at Snape in this book, so the fact that it worked well is some sort of plot hole. I argued that sometimes Harry is given a long-term block about a spell that then works when he needs it. Here's another one.
Of course, he's holding Dumbledore at the time, so one could argue that he gets his increased ability from proximity to Dumbledore's experienced body. What is less convincing for me is Harry's sudden understanding of wandlore and Voldemort's soul at the end of DH -- and he understands it on his own, too, and even explains it! Still, nobody else can understand it -- funny thing.
*ETA: But don't worry, we'll stop hearing about Snape after this book's over.
*wails* (You obviously don't hang out in the parts of fandom that I do... probably best for your mental health, actually.)
*Funny nobody else in town notices the honkin’ great Dark Mark or is up in arms about it. Just the saucy barmaid who of course wears high-heeled fluffy slippers. And is called Madam.
Ya know, it's the Wizarding World. They're all in denial, waiting for a Chosen One to take care of it for them. The saucy Madam is probably sauced, so, like Trelawney, she can't help but see things.
*JKR’s working really hard to show signs of Draco’s inner turmoil in his physical appearance, but telling me he’s panting is kind of weird.
*ETA: But I'll bet [info]sydpad would illustrate Draco wonderfully in this scene.
Yes, please! Hmm... I wonder how one draws panting.
*When Malfoy seems paralyzed Dumbledore suggests he’s afraid to act until the DEs join him—that’s sure to do the trick. You can get a wizard to do anything by calling him chicken.
That's how Snape became a Death Eater.
*ETA: God, this scene is hard to read in retrospect. People often talk about stuff from DH being written before the rest of the series, like suggesting that JKR had a lot of ideas for where it was going and just stuck with them? I've no idea how much that's true, but I can believe it reading stuff like this. I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
They were no longer needed. Harry's the hero! There's no other reason to read the books.
What I wonder is why Voldemort wanted to make the whole school Slytherin. Was it the "Heir" thing, or just a way to shock the readers, since how horrible -- being a Slytherin!? It was such a random moment, without any forewarning that all-Slytherin was on Voldemort's agenda.
Yes -- part two
Strangely, I have the urge to hug him.
*ETA: Which just shows how pathetic he is. Kids can't overtake their role models, Draco! You were lost the moment you envisioned yourself as even being at their level. Look at how nicely Harry continues to look up to Dumbledore and trust him to know what's best even after he's dead.
And it follows that everyone looks up to Harry. It's the chain of succession of the Elect.
*ETA: Btw, that trace on the name? Makes it an even better idea for everybody to say Voldemort whenever they want. If everybody's saying it the trace does little good. (Though we wouldn't have a handy way of identifying the bravest people then so maybe it's not worth it.)
Yeah, like the Danes wearing Stars of David. But that would never happen in the passive WW. (It didn't actually happen in ours).
*Amycus and Alecto are like little Campbell soup kids gone wrong. How could anyone spend much time with the Death Eaters? They’re all total freaks except for Snape and Lucius!
Basically, freaks describes a good portion of Slytherin House, so maybe spending time with them is acculturation, that or they just can't help being bad, they're drawn that way. Snape and Lucius look so much shinier by comparison, why wouldn't they hang out with the goth/drama club kids?
*ETA: Wow, this chapter really loses everything after DH. It's not even a Lightning Struck tower like it seemed. It seemed like a moment where everything fell apart so now our heroes would have to step up and figure out a way to triumph. Instead it was just one more step in Dumbledore's Incredible Irritating Plan. We could have avoided it all and just had Harry grab Dumbledore's wand for some reason somewhere.
And how. *sobs*
Re: Yes -- part two
Re: What -- two parts?
I'm going out on a limb stating my belief that Slytherin is nothing but the projection of the Gryffindors's/ Rowling's own shadow. THEY are the bullies - yet the most bullying types are Gryffindor. THEY are the ambitious ones - never mind Hermione, Percy, Molly, and the twins are Gryffs. THEY are corrupt and live by old boys' sleaze - yet it's Mr Weasley who twists the law for himself and several buddies of his - not to mention Dumble's favouritism towards Harry. And so, of course, it's THEM who want to abolish every house but their own - not those who teach their children well before they even reach platform 9 3/4 which house to avoid at all costs and which is the only REALLY good house. Nor the author who practically castrates or kills any Slytherin in sight while paying sanctimonious lipservice to the too-soon sorted. Only dead Slytherins are good Slytherins.
Re: What -- two parts?
I knew this would take more than one post...
*ETA: Whoa! I didn't remember that popping into my head before. Yipes!
You must have been one of those sensitive adults who sussed onto Dumbledore's sexual orientation. Speaking of which, isn't it odd that Rita Skeeter practically accuses Dumbledore of having sex with Harry in DH, but neglects to mention that he's gay? You'd think that would have come up.
*Hmmm…I just noticed that he starts out saying he needs Professor Snape but when he fades out starts calling for Severus, his first name, the more intimate one. The name he knew him by as a student?
*ETA: Err...I gues so. But not because he likes the guy, he just likes talking to everybody like he did when they were students because it reminds him he's in charge. He's only calling him Snape in front of Harry because he wants Harry to remember Snape's a teacher. He doesn't think of him that way himself.
Hmm. Maybe it's because he's so weak that he's starting to lose hold on proper status signifiers. I don't know exactly what I'm saying... but it makes Dumbledore seem very fragile and old when he starts using Snape's first name.
*Funny nobody else in town notices the honkin’ great Dark Mark or is up in arms about it. Just the saucy barmaid who of course wears high-heeled fluffy slippers. And is called Madam.
In the film PoA, she was played by Julie Harris and she wore sheepskin boots. Which gave a very different impression--more like a faded beauty who doesn't care about impressing anyone with her femininity.
It's always kind of bothered me that fluffy, flirty Rosmerta is such a push-over when it comes to Imperius. If it had just been the incident with the necklace, that wouldn't seem so bad. But she's under Imperius for months! Draco must have been damn good casting that Imperius...
Which makes you wonder why he didn't use that skill more often. Hehe. I realize that Harry's super-immune to Imperius so it does no good to use it on him. But one get endless entertainment Imperiusing Ron or Hermione to do stupid things. With Ron, the added bonus would be that no one would suspect a thing!
Hey, maybe this explain Ron/Lavender. Draco secretly Imperiused Ron to go out with Lavender just to mess with Hermione's head.
*I really do love the moment where Dumbledore freezes Harry and gets his own wand expelled for it—which is actually a good thing in a weird way, for everyone involved I suspect.
I can't believe it took me this long to realize that Harry's being paralyzed under the cloak here echoes that moment on the train when he's paralyzed under the cloak by Draco. Maybe because there's no real significance in connecting those moments.
*ETA: God, this scene is hard to read in retrospect. People often talk about stuff from DH being written before the rest of the series, like suggesting that JKR had a lot of ideas for where it was going and just stuck with them? I've no idea how much that's true, but I can believe it reading stuff like this. I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
Word.
*Does anyone else find it strange that of all the would-be student murderers at Hogwarts the two Slytherins so far seem the only ones to acknowledge themselves as such?
Or to seem sorry about it in the slightest. I know the Slytherins are morally inferior to the Gryffindors because the Slytherins only care about the people they care about, while the Gryffindors care about people they don't even know... but geez. It's like the Gryffindors can care deeply about people they don't know simply because those people haven't had a chance to piss them off yet.
Re: I knew this would take more than one post...
Hey, maybe this explain Ron/Lavender. Draco secretly Imperiused Ron to go out with Lavender just to mess with Hermione's head.
FTW!!!!!!
Re: I knew this would take more than one post...
It might explain Ron/Hermione, too! Hey, maybe it explains all ships? Yeah, yeah, Harry was hard to imperius, but otoh, he did have a giant chest moster communicating witth him...
It's like the Gryffindors can care deeply about people they don't know simply because those people haven't had a chance to piss them off yet.
LOL, I think you nailed it there.
Re: I knew this would take more than one post...
Re: I knew this would take more than one post...
Yeah...Rita's nasty insinuation of Dumbledore preying on Harry is the only serious reference to a same sex relationship of any kind. (The Weasleys make a couple of jokes about Percy, of course--again not nice ones.)
One would think people with 'strong wills' would all be good at throwing off Imperius. Though with Harry it seems like it's something more noble than just being strong willed. I mean, Harry's isn't even so very strong-willed compared to others. (But then, people bow to his will so much maybe he never has to try.)
Part Two of the Neverending Post....
*Nope. Not important. Except to remind us how awesomely non-bigoted Dumbledore is, I guess.
Or, to remind us that Draco is bigoted, lest we start feeling some sympathy for the nasty Hitler youth.
*I love the way Malfoy has to point out everything he’s done right ever—we put up the Dark Mark to have you come up here. And it worked! I should get house points for that part!
Heh. Wanna bet that if it had been Harry, he'd have gotten those House points? "But, before we have our end-of-year feast, there are a few points to award... For pouring potion down the throat of a protesting elderly man: 100 points to Harry Potter! For successfully Apparating without a license: 50 points to Harry Potter! For calmly standing paralyzed under his Invisibility cloak while I was being murdered: 150 points to Harry Potter! Oh, look... Gryffindor beat Slytherin by five points! Just like last year! What a coincidence!"
*Amycus and Alecto are like little Campbell soup kids gone wrong. How could anyone spend much time with the Death Eaters? They’re all total freaks except for Snape and Lucius!
Plus, they seem to know Dumbledore and yet... do they seem like they ever attended any school? Of course, it's not like Hogwarts teaches basic English or anything....
*ETA: I think we all know what would pop out of that wardrobe for Lupin now: Tonks in a neglige with a baby at her breast demanding he satisfy her sexually.
Bwahahaha!
*Amycus reminds us that Death Eaters are almost all, to a man, dim-witted.
Between that and Voldemort randomly grabbing other people's wands and fingering them, those Death Eater meetings must have been torture for halfway intelligent people like Snape and Lucius. Maybe they endured them by playing Hangman under the table or something.
*Everyone falls back, awed by the Shaft-like coolness that is Snape. So much cooler than James Potter. Sorry, James.
*ETA: Oh man, sorry James indeed. I think you win the coolness competition in the end. Snape loses a lot of points in DH.
I dunno. Snape still wins the coolness competition in my book. True, their deaths are equally lame, and there's a huge deduction on Snape's part for the whole Lily thing. But James loses so much when you find out that the Prank preceded the Pantsing that Snape still edges him out.
*OMG Snape killed Dumbledore!!!111!!
And James never did anything as cool as killing Dumbledore. "50 million points to Slytherin for Severus Snape shutting Dumbledore up a few chapters!"
*ETA: Wow, this chapter really loses everything after DH. It's not even a Lightning Struck tower like it seemed. It seemed like a moment where everything fell apart so now our heroes would have to step up and figure out a way to triumph. Instead it was just one more step in Dumbledore's Incredible Irritating Plan. We could have avoided it all and just had Harry grab Dumbledore's wand for some reason somewhere.
Thing is, it always seemed like it was part of some big plan to me. I mean, I knew there was no way Snape would kill Dumbledore without an express order to do so. The fun was going to be when that big plan was revealed... Who knew that the big plan was simply for Harry to get killed and hope he didn't die?
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Not that Harry does anything bad here, but when any chapter where your hero is petrified is a good chapter, you might want to think about it.
And the semi-good chapters are the ones where Harry is the passive observer of events that took place long ago. The irritating chapters are the ones where Harry tries to take action. (Or as Mike Smith would put it, where Dumbass Harry becomes SUPER Dumbass Harry.)
Re: Part Two of the Neverending Post....
Actually three of the non-Harry chapters (the first of PS, the first of GoF, the second of HBP) are possibly the three best. Makes you almost look forward to JKR's non-Potter books.
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*is in awe* Can I deduce that the person who invented gas-poisoning was responsible for the Holocaust?
Bizarrely, that concept made me suddenly imagine Harry and Dumbledore accidentally popping into the Dursleys’ bedroom as they were having sex.
Covering their eyes and shrieking "Het!!!"
When Draco says "Why didn’t you stop me?" he actually does seem to be potentially doing more than challenging Dumbledore’s claim to have known it was him all along.
It's just to show Draco was raised to believe persons in charge actually cared about those they were in charge of (so much for evil child torturer Lucius). The namby-pamby way, in other words.
I guess he doesn't love them as much as Harry loves his parents.
Weird as it is, I think this is what JKR means. Or can you honestly see Harry wavering for one second to kill no matter who to save the lives of Ron or Hermione?
Btw, you'd think that a barmaid with nice tits and high heeled fuzzy slippers and all would need to be a hell of a lot better at throwing off Imperius, wouldn't you?
No no, it's the other way round: a woman like that obviously has a weak character and is practically asking for being imperiussed.
Amycus reminds us that Death Eaters are almost all, to a man, dim-witted.
After decades of stupid movies showing Nazis to be ridiculous and dim-witted, you'd think rowling would have known better than to try that same formula with her DE and still hope they come off as scary.
So, after witnessing the decisive move of the Elder wand afresh - can anybody explain to me how this was meant to be in any way cleverly orchestrated by Dumbles? He had no idea what would happen that evening. He had no reason to even hope that Draco or anyone would ever try and take the Elder wand from him. So what did he intend to do? Keep it? Might be his best option (the whole idea of taking it to the grave undefeated)? Or did he intend for Harry to have it - why not give it to him directly? And even if a kerfuffle was deemed necessary for it - I think he could have asked Harry for a little mano a mano - I suppose 17year-old Harry would have been able to snatch the wand from an old man like Dumbles?
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***I doubt it. I doubt even JKR can give a decent explanation.
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It might have been interesting to see him actually having to make such a choice. But the author spares him of ever having to make any choices that might actually be difficult to make throughout the entire series, so of course it's out of the question.
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Witches put an end to the Imperius problem by a regular "Emasculo!" spell on all boy babies, making them not attracted to girls ever, except a "chest monster" implant for purposes of breeding. That's why they're all so aloof and gay, and all witches are OK with raping wizards.
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Sorry about commenting on my own comment....
The more you look at it, the stupider the plan seems. The obvious thing is for Snape to kill Dumbledore because that would give him huge DE status. Draco talks about the "glory" you'd get, and the badass status. But it doesn't mean a thing, apparently, because Snape still has to keep feeding Voldemort information that he shouldn't really have a way of getting--and Moody has to be sacrificed in order to get Snape the Headmaster position.
Like there's so many other Death Eaters who could handle that position.
And, ultimately, what's all really for? To have Snape deliver a message that Dumbledore is too chicken to deliver for himself.
Re: Sorry about commenting on my own comment....
Re: Sorry about commenting on my own comment....
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Forgive my ignorance, but what's Golgotha?
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Yes! Please!
*ETA: God, this scene is hard to read in retrospect. People often talk about stuff from DH being written before the rest of the series, like suggesting that JKR had a lot of ideas for where it was going and just stuck with them? I've no idea how much that's true, but I can believe it reading stuff like this. I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
I'm one who thought so and I still do, and it's precisely because of scenes like this - all the stuff we debated while waiting for Book 7 to arrive, the character arcs, redemption, reversals, everything - only to have all of it shoehorned into a box that had grown far too small for what it tried to become.
*I love Draco drawing comfort and courage from Dumbledore’s praise. He’s good enough, he’s smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like him.
I know it's SNL, but I now see the late Fred Rogers sliding down the wall and telling Draco how much he really likes having him as his neighbor.
*ETA: I miss this Draco.
So do I.
*I love the way Malfoy has to point out everything he’s done right ever—we put up the Dark Mark to have you come up here. And it worked! I should get house points for that part!
Even if he got the points, Harry would get more points just for being petrified so well.
*Amycus and Alecto are like little Campbell soup kids gone wrong.
Ooh, that's exactly the way I imagined them when I first read this chapter! Mm, mm, good... er, bad!
*You know, Fenrir would have made a far better boggart for Lupin. Imagine if that guy had popped out of that wardrobe!
...dressed as Neville's gran. Beats those ill-fitting DE robes he was issued in DHs!
*ETA: I think we all know what would pop out of that wardrobe for Lupin now: Tonks in a neglige with a baby at her breast demanding he satisfy her sexually.
Oh. For Lupin. Okay. (Tonks in a vulture hat?)
*ETA: Dammit, this scene actually is *good*. And deserving of far better follow through than DH. There, I said it.
Yes. *moment of silence*
Not that Harry does anything bad here, but when any chapter where your hero is petrified is a good chapter, you might want to think about it.
Sad but true. I think we lost our Good!Harry long before DHs ever hit the shelves.
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***I couldn't agree more!
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***ROTFL!!11!!!
*I love the little moment for Harry to demonstrate how great he is at summoning brooms. I won’t ask why Rosemerta, who’s also a witch, had to offer to run for them in her three inch mules.
***She never learned Accio? It wasn't thaught at Hogwarts in her days?
*What would have happened if the pub door was shut with a catch? Would the brooms have broken the door and splintered themselves with it?
***They would have broken the door without splintering. Remember Fred&George's brooms? The even broke chains without snapping. It's magic :-P
People often talk about stuff from DH being written before the rest of the series, like suggesting that JKR had a lot of ideas for where it was going and just stuck with them? I've no idea how much that's true, but I can believe it reading stuff like this. I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
***Yes yes YES! Not just the Slytherins, though...
*ETA: I certainly won't get it after DH. Why the hell do people flinch at his name? Why does Dumbledore not tell anyone his real name? Is it really setting up Harry's desperate attempt to get the plot moving again in DH by saying the name once it's got a trace on it?
***Yes. The Holy Plot, remember?*You know, Fenrir would have made a far better boggart for Lupin. Imagine if that guy had popped out of that wardrobe!
*ETA: That would have been awesome.
***Yes, absolutely. But it would change The Plot.Can't have that, can we?
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:-o I even thought for a moment the comment referred to OoTF. Don't remember Harry thinking about Sirius at all in HBP, except that one time when he attacked that thief from the Order. Harry even doesn't mope about DD in DH, thinking about the man mainly when he is (justly) angry at him. Probably the closest to "moping" Harry has ever come was when he saw his relatives in the Mirror of Erised in PS.
I can't help but feel like a lot of the Slytherin characters got seriously stuffed back into a box in the next book with the lid bashed on their heads.
Yes. Even if Draco had to be passive plot-wise in the last book, she could have written a couple of chapters from Snape's pov, V's pov or even Draco's pov, similar to the 2 first chapters in HBP or (my favorite) the first chapter of GoF. Just a thought - why not write from Neville's or Ginny's pov? It wouldn't give out any information too early (unlike being in Snape's head could) and if Ginny truly is supposed to be Harry's equal, why not give some real depth to her character? Imagine how pleasant visiting Snape and Neville could have been, especially considering the alternative of camping with Harry.
*ETA: Or maybe it's just fear he's fighting through the scene and occasionally he comes close to wetting his pants or throwing up and just avoids it.
I have a suspicion that's what JKR's explanation would have been.
*I love Draco drawing comfort and courage from Dumbledore’s praise. He’s good enough, he’s smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like him.
*ETA: He's an idiot.
OMG! Were you talking about what we were supposed to understand or had the last book influenced you that much? Why is he an idiot specifically at that point? Wasn't he on the contrary turning away from the dark path and becoming more like Harry by valuing Dumbledore’s praise and trusting the only right authority figure?
*ETA: I guess he doesn't love them as much as Harry loves his parents. Where's the revenge, there, Draco?
Do you talk about Draco being unable to kill even to keep his parents alive? How is revenge connected to that? What has DD done personally to him to deserve revenge?
*Dumbledore says he’s shocked Draco would bring Fenrir to a place where his friends live. Silly, Dumbledore—Slytherins don’t have friends!
I remember Harry considered G & G being Draco's friends too at one point in emergency, instead of "bodyguards" as usual. I wouldn't be surprised, if in a calm discussion with Harry (imagine we lived in an universe, where it could happen) DD would explain why the Slytherin trio weren't really friends. And he would be right. See: Crabbe's end.
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Actually, writing EVERY chapter from a different POV would have been wonderful, the readers would actually see the war happen, care about Lupin/Tonks, etc. There's no reason we should follow the idiots on their stupid quest of pointless for 700 pages. Just glance at them every so often.
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Hee! Yeah, "cool" is not the word that comes to mind when thinking of DH!Snape.
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- You’re totally right about how Draco seems more aware than any of our Gryfindor ‘heroes’ are of the danger he’s caused to others. That’s because JKR feels that by admitting his faults, he’s proving he’s bad. Fair enough, but she genuinely doesn’t seem to realise the appalling acts of Harry, Hermione, the twins, Sirius etc, are appalling. Scary woman.
- I actually liked the taboo. If only to shut up the tiresomely priggish Hermione and her smug self-satisfaction in saying the name and unlearning a habit of, what, 3 years? Well, Harry said it as well Herms, and look what happened. Heh. Plus it made some sort of sense that pure-bloods knew that Voldemort was the sort of person who’d enforce it and tried to protect their children from it. Dumbledore didn’t care of course – he was brave, all-powerful and a slave to no man. Plus he had no children to worry about. Except the hundreds at his school. And why should he worry if he got Harry into the habit of saying the name? Why would Voldemort want to get to Harry?
- You’re right about people constantly re-writing scenes to fit in with their version of the story. It goes beyond tiresome shipping arguments; it’s often a desperate attempt to make sense of the story and characterizations. We’re among the few that truly accept she messed this all up. B*gger.
- Word about that that mean mother f*cker Snape! I can hear Isaac Hayes and the groovy wah wah right now. James Potter was a childish jerk up to (and beyond) the end. Snape was Mr Cool – right up to The Prince’s Tale, or the Snape-shaped hole, when JKR finally managed to mess him up too. However I disagree with your no doubt sarcastic comment that James ends up cooler. They were both rubbish. JKR obviously felt that by messing up some characters, she built up others. When she simply ended up with a big pile of messed up characters.
- This chapter was so cool, it still is really. Plus what promise for the future! I had it all worked out. The Auror investigation into Dumbles’ death for a start - Harry was the key witness! Maybe Moody would offer to take Harry’s memories of the Order, because the Aurors would never take his accusations against Snape seriously without verifying them with veritaserum etc. And the Order couldn’t risk all their valuable and vital work being exposed. Then Harry would realise that if he wanted to keep all the knowledge of Voldemort’s background (can’t risk people knowing he’s only a half blood!) and the Horcrux hunt etc, he couldn’t risk being interviewed by the Aurors. Meaning Snape would get off scot-free and random Death Eaters would be blamed instead.
- This would pave the way for the new Minister of Education, Dolores Umbridge, to appoint Snape as Head Master, leading to many intense, yet thrilling confrontations between him and Harry in Book 7, until the Ministry fell in the New Year/Christmas and the Trio had to run. I had it all PLANNED. Sob. How could there not even be an investigation? OK, once Voldemort took over, it’d be stopped, but that was almost two months away. Still, that's in the future (or rather not in the future) this chapter was maybe the last true high point in the series.
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Damn you, JKR.
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What does the little Campbell soup kids reference mean? *is confused*
I dunno. Snape still wins the coolness competition in my book. True, their deaths are equally lame, and there's a huge deduction on Snape's part for the whole Lily thing. But James loses so much when you find out that the Prank preceded the Pantsing that Snape still edges him out.
Word. Snape loses major coolness points in DH re: his obsession over Lily (I wouldn't have minded the Snape/Lily thing if it had been written well, if Snape wasn't so obsessed and if Lily really was as great as JKR made her out to be.
But JKR wrote Snape/Lily badly, IMHO. Which is why I ship the fanfic version of them (where Lily is actually decent towards Snape, and Snape isn't obsessed over her) and not the canon version).
But up until DH, Snape was cool, calculated, intelligent and ambiguous. So...I think Snape is cooler than James (but only by just a little bit).
And James never did anything as cool as killing Dumbledore. "50 million points to Slytherin for Severus Snape shutting Dumbledore up a few chapters!"
Bwahaha! Pity Dumbledore still came back to monologue in DH. Nothing stops him from having the last word, not even death!
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Snape loses major coolness points in DH re: his obsession over Lily...
But up until DH, Snape was cool, calculated, intelligent and ambiguous. So...I think Snape is cooler than James (but only by just a little bit).
Back to the writing of parts of DH before the writing of most of the series, yet another thing that makes me think the characters got away and had to be stuck, kicking and screaming, back into their now-too-small holes that were already made up for them for the finale.
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Curse you. You have left me with the (probably indelible) idea that Madam Rosmerta is running a prostitution business on the side.
sistermagpie: *Clever little "you seem unsupported" line from Albus, suggesting that Draco can’t really depend on DE backup.
To me it just suggests that Dumbledore doesn't think Draco is wearing the right underwear or something. Oh, Albus, you perv.
sistermagpie: *Yup, the one thing that Draco seems practically drunk on in this scene is not being a fuck up.
In other words, better than Daddy.
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In other words, better than Daddy.
It's so true! Not as much as I hoped it would be, but still true!
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