Let’s You and Him Fight: How Snape and Lupin’s Conflict in PoA Furthers Dumbledore’s War Strategy

[sunnyskywalker]

Thanks to torchedsong for bringing up the topic of character complexity (or the destruction thereof). JKR's desperate attempts to force characters that had grown beyond her control back into simpler, Really Good vs. Really Bad boxes in DH always gets me thinking.

Some HP characters I used to love disappointed me so much once I'd processed DH that I lost sympathy for them for a while. JKR excusing some characters’ flaws and not others also makes it tempting to blame her pet characters and dislike them forever more. Now, I prefer a complex cast of characters who might have sympathetic motivations and flaws which inevitably bring them into conflict over what I felt JKR wrote in DH, so I’ve been trying to re-examine the HP books with a view toward finding some sympathy for all the characters, even the really terrible ones. (No luck so far with James. I’m not sure I’ll ever manage that.)

This led me to Prisoner of Azkaban, where Snape is responsible for brewing Lupin’s medication and making sure he takes it. Even Dumbledore ought to have noticed that this is a no-good, horrible, very bad idea. Snape will be freshly reminded of the time Lupin nearly killed him at regular intervals. Lupin will be freshly reminded of the time he nearly killed Snape because his good friend Sirius set him up (and possibly react by trying to minimize it all to avoid a debilitating guilt-spiral), plus will face the anxiety that maybe the guy he bullied for years and nearly killed will poison him in revenge. Why on Earth would anyone set them both up for this? Yes, Snape is one of the few people talented enough to brew Wolfsbane… but Dumbledore is supposed to be a genius at everything magical, and he studied alchemy, which surely has skills that translate to potions. Why can’t he brew the Wolfsbane and deliver it with a twinkle? Even if he can’t, why can’t he deliver it instead of Snape? Forcing them to deal with each other directly over such a fraught subject is guaranteed to make them both suffer.

*headdesk* Probably because that’s the point. This is part of Dumbledore’s war strategy. Snape is probably in on it to some degree—not that it makes it any less miserable for him.

Because what’s happening in the wizarding world? Sirius Black, Voldemort’s right-hand man (they believe), has escaped. He’s gunning for Harry and plotting to resurrect his master. Which means Snape has to make absolutely sure that anyone at school could testify to the following points:

• While he didn’t go looking for Voldemort, he is otherwise a good Death Eater who hates the enemies of the cause. Like Order of the Phoenix members and Aurors. And their children.
  
• He still hates the Marauders. He can’t stand Lupin, and he sees James every time he looks at Harry.
  
• And only James. Lily who? There is absolutely no reason he would hold a grudge about that—he’s overjoyed that James is dead, and looks forward to killing the rest of the surviving gang!
  
• He also hates Dumbledore. Just look how the man mocks his completely justified trauma and forces him to work with the werewolf who nearly killed him—and moreover, to be responsible for making sure he doesn’t go on a werewolf rampage. And even when Lupin resists taking his medicine and seems to be helping Harry sneak out at night, Dumbledore still won’t believe Snape’s warnings. Yes, if the Dark Lord were to return, Snape would take pleasure in finally getting a chance to help bring the old man down.

So if at some point during the year Snape should capture or kill Black and/or Lupin and protect Harry in the process, it’s definitely not because he’s working for Dumbledore or wants to honor Lily’s memory or opposes Voldemort and the Death Eater agenda. Nope, he just completely lost his head after months of re-living all that bullying and took his revenge. He’s so very sorry that his snapping hurt the Dark Lord’s plans. It won’t happen again!

Snape goes out of his way to make sure Harry’s class sees him sneering in Lupin’s general direction when he inexplicably loiters in the staff room past time for the boggart lesson to start. He knows the schedule; he could have left five minutes ago if he wanted to avoid Lupin. Instead he makes sure everyone knows right away that he doesn’t like this fun new teacher. He takes a swipe at the Aurors’ kid too for good measure. And how fortuitous that Lupin responds by helping Neville humiliate Boggart!Snape, giving the real Snape another excuse to be extra snappish to drive home the message that he really, really doesn’t like Lupin or Aurors. He couldn’t have planned it better if he tried! Given the situation, maybe that’s because he did try. And succeeded.

Which brings me to the end of the school year. After the showdown in the Shrieking Shack, Snape knows that three of the Marauders became illegal Animagi in school, that they let the transformed Lupin out during full moon for over two years (possibly nearly three), that they had “many” close calls where Lupin nearly maimed and infected or killed someone and they all laughed about it afterwards, that they managed to keep all this secret from Dumbledore even after the “prank,” that Lupin didn’t tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus or about the unknown-to-staff secret passages even after Sirius broke in and (apparently) tried to kill a child, and that he kept secret the existence of a map which staff could have monitored continuously to watch for Sirius Black. Oh, and Lupin didn’t come by to take his Wolfsbane again, as a result of which several people nearly got killed or soul-sucked and a Death Eater escaped, probably scampering off to help facilitate Voldemort’s return. He doesn’t seem to have arrived in time to hear Lupin say that he’d spent over twenty minutes watching the map, expecting something to happen which he’d need to run off and handle at any moment—guaranteeing that he’d have no time to take his potion and knew it, and basically set himself up for failure—but he might have learned that afterward, and could probably extrapolate accurately from what he did know.

Now, Dumbledore couldn’t have planned around information he didn’t have, but how well this all fits his strategy! Snape has even more reasons to fear and loathe Lupin. He also has more reasons to resent Dumbledore, like Dumbledore’s mocking his devastation at Lupin’s carelessness destroying Snape’s chance of bringing a criminal (one who’d specifically targeted him in the past, even) to justice. Now Snape’s pose that he will embrace the chance to re-join the Dark Lord and take vengeance on his enemies will look even more convincing. Because even if Dumbledore engineered situations to encourage these feelings, they’re still at least mostly real.

So the next day when Snape drops enough hints for everyone to figure out Lupin’s a werewolf, that too fits Dumbledore’s strategy. Yes, Snape is super-vindictive! Just ask anyone. They’ll tell you how he ruined the life of his school enemy-turned-Order member. What a good Death Eater! Why, losing all chance at employment forever might even drive Lupin over to the Dark Lord’s side in the end, so it was good for the cause too!

…and then a few years later, Lupin is Dumbledore’s spy among the werewolves. No doubt using his ostracism—which began under Dumbledore’s very nose, with a member of his own staff—as the reason he’s supposedly decided to turn against Dumbledore and join the pack. How very convenient that he has such a perfect cover story. Convenient for Dumbledore, that is. I now wonder whether Snape leaked that information entirely on his own initiative. Oh, I’m sure Dumbledore didn’t outright say he should do it, but he’s very good at implying things. We saw that just the night before when he technically didn’t tell Hermione to use her Time-Turner to save Buckbeak and Sirius.

And you know, maybe Lupin had good instincts when he was so afraid of Dumbledore finding out how he’d betrayed his trust in school. Maybe it’s a coincidence that Lupin’s secret comes out the very day after Dumbledore finds out Lupin lied to him for years, including this year, and put Dumbledore’s neck on the line along with his own. And that it’s Dumbledore’s most obedient follower (one with secrets of his own Dumbledore could use to ruin him at any time, among other control mechanisms) who looses the secret. Snape does have enough reasons of his own to do it. But then, he kept quiet last time Lupin nearly killed someone in/near the Shrieking Shack (and he’s clever enough to have gotten around a Tongue-Tying Curse if that were an issue). And he tells in the morning rather than in the heat of the moment. And he’s surely susceptible to the argument that if he tells Lupin’s secret, it will damage Dumbledore’s reputation and the war effort… if Dumbledore made that argument. If Dumbledore thought the damage to his reputation outweighed the strategic benefits. I really wonder.

It gets worse. Dumbledore knows the DADA job is cursed. The two teachers just prior to Lupin have ended up dead or with permanent mental damage. Depending on what Dumbledore knows about the curse’s functioning, he might reasonably wonder whether Voldemort’s attempts at returning have made the curse’s effects worse. And he offers this job to Lupin? Maybe he hates the Marauders almost as much as Snape. Either way, it could fit his strategy too. After all, if you have a curse which will cause something probably non-fatal but bad to happen to your employee, and your employee is a secret werewolf, what’s the most likely bad thing that would force him to leave his position? Um. Right.

When Dumbledore knowingly offered Lupin the cursed job, he probably realized there was a high risk of the year ending with everyone knowing Lupin was a werewolf one way or another. Which would pretty much wreck Lupin’s life. Which would incidentally leave his schedule free for Order of the Phoenix work and provide a cover story for becoming a spy among the werewolves. Do you think he mentioned that when he offered Lupin the job? Do you think Lupin knowingly accepted that risk? Did Dumbledore just realize the risk, or did he count on it? Even take steps to make sure it played out that way?

I have to say, I do have more sympathy for Lupin now. Though, um, a bit less for Dumbledore.

Comments

[chantaldormand]

Which means Snape has to make absolutely sure that anyone at school could testify to the following points:
I have to question just how well known were any of these (aside from hating Dumbledore and even that from POV of average Dark Wizard would be questionable)
Sure he might claim those things when faced with Voldemort, but this man is a double agent. Even if Voldemort doesn't know how much information Severus passed to Dumbledore, he isn't going to trust someone who apparently successfully flew under Dumbledore's radar.
So he needs someone who knows those things and can't protect their mind. That is a tall order.

I'm more interested in Remus' behaviour. No matter how much he or his friends hated Snape, the man is his would-be-victim yet not only he doesn't feel any remorse, but also isn't afraid that Severus would reveal the whole almost-got-feed-to-werewolf-on-school-grounds incident. He openly antagonizes the person who could easily destroy his and his patron's careers...
Also the position was cursed since 50's. You would think that Lupin as Hogwarts' graduate would consider it to be bit too dangerous for someone with his condition.

[gingerbred.livejournal.com]

The curse on the DADA position didn't happen until Voldemort went back to apply for the position a second time, under Dumbledore, so late sixties-ish.

[sunnyskywalker]

I was thinking in the sense that his cover shouldn't slip in front of anyone, so that if, say, Voldemort tries to sneak back into the school on the back of someone else's head, or recruits Ernie Macmillan and checks his mind for how he's seen Snape behave, there will be nothing to contradict the story and everything to support it. No, it won't ease all Voldemort's reservations--but at least it won't make things worse by showing that he can work more or less civilly with someone he hates or that he isn't bothered by reminders of Aurors and Order members particularly. And having memories of being pissed at Dumbledore for mocking his pain will definitely help it look convincing that he would be happy to betray Dumbledore's trust if only the Dark Lord would return and ask.

With the curse, I've been thinking that if it always ended with death or debilitating injury or something equally terrible, there wouldn't just be a rumor that it's cursed. So probably in the past, a lot of the teachers left for less dire reasons--caring for a parent who'd come down with a serious illness, unexpectedly fell pregnant, hated teaching especially after that one horrible classroom incident, things like that. So Lupin might reasonably believe that if Dumbledore was offering him the job, it couldn't really be cursed. Who would do something like that, right?

Re-reading the Shrieking Shack scene, Lupin swings wildly back and forth between expressing shame and remorse and saying he's "haunted" by what could have happened and then dismissing it all as trivial. So I think it's at least a possible reading that deep down, he knows how bad the things he's done are, and he often suppresses that knowledge.

Which is, er, not good for the students' safety, to put it mildly. But it's also a much bigger version of a pretty common human response--like, how many of us have looked at a pile of dirty dishes, felt bad about leaving them in the sink, and then continued ignoring that reminder (because we didn't want to think about our failures in housekeeping) and gone to muck about on the internet instead? So, his response is still really bad for the students, and for him in the long run, but at least he isn't missing some basic human feeling.

[gingerbred.livejournal.com]

Interesting stuff, thanks a lot for taking the time to write it. :-)

I'll preface this by standing to my bias, I'll never *not* dislike Lupin at least a little for his cowardice (he won't tell Albus things he needs to know because he might think less of Lupin? Oooookay.), hubris (he pulls a full on 'Harry' at the end of PoA; only *he* can sensibly intervene in the shack? WTF wouldn't he alert Albus?), and complete disregard for others (securing his trivial secrets (the secret passageways, the map) or reputation (youthful 'indiscretions') is more important than the threat to students' *lives*). SMH.

I agree with most of your points, particularly how their adversarial roles help bolster Snape's cover, but a couple of things stuck out for me.

Loved this: 'excusing some characters’ flaws and not others also makes it tempting to blame her pet characters and dislike them forever more.' Preach. I've fallen into that trap and still haven't worked my way back out. Good for you if you've succeeded. (I liked Ron just fine until society (reflected by the stand-in of Hermione) apparently has no issue with / *rewards* him *for* those weaknesses. That just made me stabby.) And *boy* do I hear you on James...

What I'm less sure about is if it's a question of *JKR* excusing those flaws or not. (I'm thoroughly ignoring interviews here. I don't believe a thing someone who is trying to sell me something says.) We're basically given the story through Harry's view, and sometimes it reflects the events that 'happen'. Harry has always taken a rather simplistic view of people, and life isn't fair, so if what we're told happens corresponds to either of those things... That seems about right. There's no need in the narrative for the 'good' to either be recognised or rewarded *fairly/*. I don't think that necessarily means that's what the author is trying to say 'should' have happened in an ideal world.

(On the contrary, for *me*, sometimes that feels like I'm being challenged to rethink my assessments.)

> Lupin will be freshly reminded of the time he nearly killed Snape because his good friend Sirius set him up
It may well be helpful to keep reminding Lupin of that, as it helps reduce the chances he'd be inclined to help Sirius out of old loyalties.

> and possibly react by trying to minimize it all to avoid a debilitating guilt-spiral
Wise strategy then on Albus' part. Lupin definitely minimises the harm they did to Snape over the years. Lupin isn't shown to be a courageous person, not inclined to face and accurately evaluate (publicly) his youthful sins (he certainly doesn't bother to atone for them), and in turn it helps fuel Harry's Snape!hate, which is useful for the man's cover.

As an aside, I actually liked the idea of a real in universe issue with having just *anyone* brew the Wolfsbane potion. It made Snape more skilful, reduced Albus' omnipotence, and unlike so much of the books, established the idea that skill and study made a *difference* in terms of what a character could do. Finally!

> He also hates Dumbledore. Just look how the man mocks his completely justified trauma and forces him to work with the werewolf who nearly killed him—and moreover, to be responsible for making sure he doesn’t go on a werewolf rampage.

That only works if 1) Lupin's secret is known (how early would Albus have planned on doing this? I can't see him giving the 'all clear' until the (second) Shrieking Shack debacle.) and 2) Lupin's near attack on Severus fifth year is a known thing. It definitely *wasn't* in advance of PoA or Lupin's secret would have been out, and he'd never have been hired. Also, being responsible for making sure he doesn't go on a rampage sounds like a win, whichever side Snape actually works for.

[sunnyskywalker]

Well, I wouldn't say I've succeeded yet. But I'm trying :-)

The thing that really gets me about Lupin's silence in PoA is the secret tunnels. He wasn't running around the castle while transformed as a student, so presumably he and his friends discovered these tunnels while they were all (except maybe Peter) in human form. He could tell Dumbledore all about the tunnel that leads from the statue of the humpbacked witch to the Honeyduke's cellar without touching on issues of trust over the werewolf thing at all. Will Dumbledore care if some kids sneaked out to buy candy once in a while twenty years ago? Pfff.

Not to mention, if they all managed to keep the big Animagus secret from Dumbledore as kids right after the incident (when it would be fresh in their minds), he might have a chance of getting away with telling Dumbledore he remembers Sirius talking about how being an Animagus would be cool, and does Dumbledore remember seeing a big black dog around a lot when they were in the Order? No? Hm, well, maybe it was nothing...

He might also be able to get away with handing over the map so teachers could watch it on a rota. Again, they didn't make a map of the castle based on Lupin roaming about transformed. He could pass it off as regular (for Hogwarts) student mischief. Heck, he might even be able to get away with not admitting to helping make it.

So if he feels too guilty to talk about the tunnels or the map, maybe it's too wrapped up in the Marauders' entire career of misdeeds to separate out for him emotionally. (Maybe they did terrible things with both?) Anyway, it's possible that the guilt and shame are so crushing that he keeps avoiding anything at all to do with the Marauders' nighttime explorations.

I was thinking of Snape's cover as being a combination of what anyone at school could see (so there are no holes regardless of how Voldemort checks his story) and what memories Voldemort could see in his mind. It helps to have genuine memories of Dumbledore being a jerk. Right? So Dumbledore can twinkle and say he has to treat Severus badly. For the greater good. The strategy would build throughout the year as more things happened, and making sure both men have to interact in ways that remind them both of trauma provides more opportunities to create either public scenes (even if there's only one member of the public around, like Harry seeing Snape bring the potion) or bad memories for Snape.

But I think Dumbledore could reasonably guess that Lupin would be revealed as a werewolf one way or another by the end of the year, so he could also plan for that possibility. Maybe it wouldn't pan out, but if it does, hooray!

[sunnyskywalker]

It may well be helpful to keep reminding Lupin of that, as it helps reduce the chances he'd be inclined to help Sirius out of old loyalties.

There must be less risky ways to do that, though. As soon as Dumbledore finds out that having to deal with Snape makes Lupin avoidant enough to risk of missing doses of his potion, if student safety (and Lupin's) were his main concern, he ought to have gone, "Oops, never mind what "should" happen, this is not working. Figure out new strategies both for getting Lupin to take his potion and for reminding him how Sirius was a terrible friend who nearly ruined his life." He doesn't seem to have done that, so either he didn't register it as a problem, or he had other concerns. Or both, of course.

[gingerbred.livejournal.com]

Ah! But Lupin didn't skip taking the potion beause he didn't feel like dealing with Snape. He did so because he spotted Pettigrew on the map. (Which is why neither of those cases you mention (or both) came to be.)

One of the problems we have is the tone of the books changed so radically, and in the earlier ones, student safety was often payed for laughs (actually: safety, full stop. Kettleburn's limbs? Bwahahaha!) So it's hard to be certain when things are being done for the sake of Albus' incredibly difficult, and not always sensical, master plan of (what the) fuckery, or when it's simply in service of plot!, chasing a laugh.

I like to think one of the reasons Albus didn't have Sirius' back more (or was willing to believe the worst of him) after the Potters were killed in the first war was Sirius had already proved *unequivocally* (fifth year with the Snape/Remus/Shrieking Shack incident) that he was willing to expose friends' secrets at great personal risk to *them* when it was in the least bit in his own perceived interests. And that Sirius had absolutely zero problems whatsoever potentially taking another human's life, while using one of his best friends as the weapon to do so... (Seriously, why do people like SIrius again? Ha ha ha ha, Snape... Dude just can't take a joke. Nope. Sorry, never got the Sirius love there.)

So reminding Lupin of Sirius' douchery was about more than just keeping him from helping him, but continually reaffirming the current image they mutually had of him.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

But Lupin didn't skip taking the potion beause he didn't feel like dealing with Snape. He did so because he spotted Pettigrew on the map.

There was more to it than that. Throughout the entire school year, we saw Lupin put off taking his potion when it was first brought to him, to Snape’s visible discomfort. I have always read this as a passive-aggressive way to take a little poke at Snape, just for old time’s sake. Lupin had to have realized (at least as an adult) that Snape was traumatized by the Shrieking Shack encounter, and that having Lupin around was stirring up that trauma. The considerate thing to have done, if he cared at all about the damage he and Sirius had caused, would be to have downed his potion immediately, in Snape’s presence, when Snape brought it to him every month, thereby allowing Snape to feel secure for at least that night. Instead he makes a point of oh-so-politely putting it off. The message is: “Worry all night, Snivellus. I’m still a Marauder, and you can’t control me any more than you ever could.” If he had behaved decently to Snape instead of playing irresponsible mind games, his potion would have been down the hatch long before he ever saw Pettigrew on the map.

[sunnyskywalker]

I was working under the assumption that events overtook him suddenly and he dashed off in a hurry, but re-reading Lupin's story, the way he says the night played out was this: he expected something to happen at some point that night, which is why he wanted to watch the map; he spread the map out in his office and watched it for a while; he saw the significant dots moving around and watched for over 20 minutes; and then he went dashing off.

So, why not pick up his potion before settling down for an evening of map-watching? He says he suspected something was going to happen, which means he suspected he would get caught up in events that wouldn't leave him time to go get his potion. If he meant to take it, he'd have gotten it before he started watching the map.

So yeah, I think he did avoid going to get it for one reason or another. Not that he spells this out for us. But then, he wouldn't.

[gingerbred.livejournal.com]

I think we're not supposed to know whether Albus green lit Snape's 'betrayal' of Lupin's secret. But he definitely *tolerated* it, because as you point out, he had Snape by the short and curlies, and there are no (readily apparent) consequences for the reveal. It would have been super easy to include another scene of Albus giving the nudge and a wink to do so in the memories Snape left for Harry. I like that JKR didn't go there. It left more room for a sense of Snape not just being a pawn but a man with at least a little agency. This could have been an instance of Severus being so angry at Lupin's callous disregard for others, that he said 'fuck the consequences and Albus and the Thestral he rode in on' and made a move to protect those around him by having Lupin removed. Which allows Snape to be a mean old sod *and* protective in one, which I feel is a more interesting character.

One of the most telling things for me is that Snape *doesn't* reveal Sirius as an unregistered Animagus, however. Sure, Sirius is still a wanted convict, but that seems like something that will/should eventually be cleared up, doesn't it? If Snape revealed that, presumably things wouldn't/couldn't be as easily resolved. So why doesn't he? He certainly *hates* Sirius more. But Lupin is the one who poses an active threat to the students, and revealing *his* secret supports Snape's cover more publicly, and positions Lupin so that he has a better chance to act as a spy himself. Hmm.

I always found that rather revealing. (Not entirely *sensical*, but revealing.)

Snape's (and the reader's) reasons for distrusting/ disliking the Marauders have definitely increased at the end of PoA. Additionally add in their universal acceptance despite putting all and sundry at such great risk, while Snape by contrast was pretty universally disliked by the 'good people'. And then there's the fact the knowledge of their Animagi abilities throws James' supposed heroics fifth year into question. (He'd presumably rescued Snape at least in some part to save his friends, but it was still *brave*. If, however, he was *already* an Animagus (at most, he was months away from being one and practising that magic at the time), then *he wasn't actually at risk*. :-|)

But as chantaldormand points out, those reasons aren't generally known. And that's a problem as Snape's *officially* on record for trying to have captured Sirius, the man he should take to be the Potters' killer. At this point, they should be shouting those reasons from the rooftops to explain that misstep. It isn't until Pettigrew can back up his reasons to the D.E.'s that it gives Snape any justification, and he shouldn't have known to count on that.

So I had nothing there, other than not revealing Sirius' secret was a (not necessarily well thought through) hint Snape wasn't as evil as Harry took him for. (Or stupid double, triple spy bluff...)

> It gets worse. Dumbledore knows the DADA job is cursed.
I think we suffer here from the 'Poirot effect' of not knowing what the characters (pretty much *all*) know. We have no real idea what had happened to any of the teachers prior to Quirrell. Although I agree, the fates of Quirrell and Lockhart are daunting, after those severe instances and once he realises the kids might need some good instruction to face Voldemort, post year two (!), the people *Albus* put in the job were 1) competent people 2) he presumably didn't want harmed. Certainly not the real!Moody or Snape.


As for your questions... *I* don't think Albus would bother to ask someone to do something unless he was sure they'd say 'yes', which makes asking moot. It's just for show. (No evidence, just a feeling, but if he's willing to sacrifice Harry without so much as a 'by your leave'...) I think he's a manipulative creature out for the win, but at least he's throwing your life away with the intention of it making a difference. Where I have more issues is that I don't think he's always got the best plan, or even a *good* one, and deciding to play god while being something of an idiot... Oof. Just... Oof.

That was fun! Thanks again.

[sunnyskywalker]

Snape also has a few things on Dumbledore (the "prank" sure doesn't make him look good, and he could also truthfully say that in hindsight, some of the things Dumbledore said first year showed he suspected Quirrell was working with Voldemort and still let him have unfettered access to children), so it might also work that he leaks the one secret he knows Dumbledore will have to let him get away with. Good point.

Since they don't know exactly what will happen or what Voldemort might be able to find out (who knows whom he might capture or possess? could see anyone's memories), it's probably best to lay all the groundwork they think they might need. Even things not generally known now might come to Voldemort's attention somehow. If he asks anyone who was around that year, or anyone they told, every detail should look consistent with Snape hating the Marauders and Dumbledore. Fortunately, this isn't hard ;-) And even if no one ever tells V anything about the events of the year, Snape will still have memories with genuine emotions supporting his cover.

In the Shack, he talks about vengeance for the prank. (Which I think was genuine, but also partly engineered in that Dumbles had stoked the conflict.) So, if the real Death Eater Marauder(s) escapes and finds Voldemort, or if Voldemort is ever able to interrogate Ron or Hermione, V will discover that Snape looked unhinged and seemingly couldn't focus beyond his hatred for Sirius and Lupin. Which at least primes Voldemort for an explanation other than "Snape has turned against Voldemort." Telling Lupin's secret is also consistent with him trying to get revenge by any means possible, even at risk to his own safety/career, with no further agenda. If V Imperiuses Fudge and pump him for information, he could find out that Snape had an emotional breakdown when Sirius escaped and he lost his chance at vengeance. Then, if Voldemort returns and asks Snape for an explanation, everything Voldemort could potentially have found out from one source or another will be consistent with Snape's story that he wasn't thinking, he just wanted to see Sirius suffer for what he'd done, etc. etc. They can expect he'll still torture Snape, but at least he might believe in his (more or less) continued loyalty and let him live.

[sunnyskywalker]

It would be so much easier if we knew exactly what Dumbledore knew about the curse and when. *sigh*

Hm. How about, he thinks there probably is one (with effects usually milder than what happen in PS/SS and CoS), and he also thinks that the curse backlash is triggered by how much the DADA teacher works against the headmaster's intentions? (Assuming he thinks Tom used some of the castle's existing magics as the basis for the curse.) Quirrelmort: trying to resurrect Voldemort and eventually kill Dumbledore, gets killed. Lockhart: trying to mind-wipe students, one of whom Dumbledore needs to keep his mind, gets mind-wiped himself. He might then believe that since Lupin and Moody (and Snape) will be mostly working in harmony with his interests, any curse backlash will be mild. (Er, at least relatively. He probably isn't crediting just how bad Lupin's secret being revealed could be, because he usually doesn't understand how much other people suffer.)

He might be wrong on every point, mind. But maybe he believes something like that?

Incidentally, I wonder what would have happened if Lockhart had Obliviated Harry to the point where he'd have ended up in the locked ward? Would the Voldiebit have had room to expand, as it were? Along the same lines, I've been wondering about that Imperius lesson in GoF; when Harry is under Imperius--that is, his mind is suppressed a bit--is that little voice telling him not to jump himself, or Tom? Would we have ended up with a hybrid Harry/Tom mind?

[torchedsong.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post! This is an interesting topic; reading this, it makes me wonder if Dumbledore ever cared for people on an individual level or if he only saw those working for him as means to an end. Or maybe both - he cares, but it doesn't stop him from manipulating to the best of his abilities.

As for Lupin and Snape, I like them both as characters (not so much in DH, but they were my favorites back in the day). Lupin is sympathetic and flawed. His werewolf condition is unfair to him and would stress or depress anyone in his place. He's compassionate and nurturing, but passive and weak-willed. He's far from the wholesome and cuddly individual the fandom makes him to be at times.

As for Dumbledore fanning the flames of animosity between Snape and Lupin, I can see that as a strategic move on his part. Although, it's pretty cold to provoke such painful memories from both Snape and Lupin, especially knowing Lupin would have much to lose if his secret got out. I don't think he'd agree to the DADA job if he knew it was cursed.

I sometimes wonder if it was JKR's intention to create such complicated problems amongst Dumbledore, Snape, and the Marauders, or if it was meant to be taken as it's presented on the surface: Dumbledore does what he does for the "greater good," so it's acceptable. Snape is mean and spiteful, so any anguish he feels is tainted and unacceptable. Lupin and Sirius are flawed yet good-natured men, so any mistakes they made in the past or present should be forgiven. Or maybe I'm not giving JKR enough credit in this case.

Overall, sympathetic or not, I do think Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, and Sirius presented the possibility for JKR to show how every person involved had their own good and bad points in the actions they took. Even Peter, I can find some degree of sympathy for. Although, I'm with you there on finding it difficult to connect with James as a character. I can't find anything to like or sympathize with him, other than his last stand against Voldemort to protect his family. But I'm biased because I never found Harry's parents to be interesting in the slightest.

Sorry I can't write a more coherent response. I'm sick and my brain is all scrambled. I appreciate all of this discussion!

[sunnyskywalker]

I realized recently that I can see Lupin deeply resenting Snape because he sees things as Snape being able to wipe his slate clean (of past associations, at least; he doesn't yet know that Snape was an actual DE) and have a permanent job and a modicum of respect, whereas Lupin's condition is going to screw up his life forever. He doesn't get to just start over. And while he didn't choose to become a Dark creature, Snape chose to be a Dark wizard.* It isn't fair!

Which makes him more interesting to me than if he really were just a mild, nice person. He and Snape can be petty and bitter together, and just present themselves to the world differently ;-)

I have no idea what JKR was aiming for here. I think gingerbred is right above that the drastic shifts in tone make it hard to judge--maybe even for JKR. She might have been shifting back and forth in her own mind. This could have been unified and smoothed out a bit in the final book, but... wasn't.

Thanks for the lovely response!

*While I think there's a good case for Dark magic not meaning evil as Harry and Lily seem to think, Lupin was in the crowd who believed that.

[torchedsong.livejournal.com]

Which makes him more interesting to me than if he really were just a mild, nice person. He and Snape can be petty and bitter together, and just present themselves to the world differently ;-)

Oh, definitely. Lupin, just like the rest of the Marauders, has an immature and petty side as well. He's not free of fault despite his sympathetic condition, and he is careless and reckless in his own way despite his mild-mannered demeanor.

I have no idea what JKR was aiming for here. I think gingerbred is right above that the drastic shifts in tone make it hard to judge--maybe even for JKR. She might have been shifting back and forth in her own mind. This could have been unified and smoothed out a bit in the final book, but... wasn't.

Sometimes I think JKR was hesitant to make her good guys too unlikable and culpable in the grand scheme of things. That's why Dumbledore can be revealed as a ruthless manipulator, but be forgiven in seconds by Harry and not have it drastically alter Harry's perception of him. And it's also why she can introduce the brutality the Marauders inflicted on Snape in the Pensieve scene in OOTP, but have it be all forgotten by Harry after five minutes of criticism. It's concluded as insignificant.

James bullying and assaulting Snape is no big deal because he grew out of it and became Harry's dad, Sirius using Lupin to hurt or kill Snape is no big deal because "it's just a prank, bro", and Dumbledore being a Machiavellian mastermind is no big deal because it's for the greater good of the Wizarding World.

The good guys have their great flaws and have made mistakes but it's hand waved away and swept under the rug so JKR doesn't really have to deal with her "nice" characters being controversial in a meaningful or permanent manner.

At least, that's my wild theory....

As for Dark magic, I agree that "dark" does not equate to "evil." One spell or branch of magic may be more harmful than the other, but Dark spells do not have to be used for malevolent purposes only.