deathtocapslock | OOTP Chapter Thirty-Eight: "The Second War Begins"

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OOTP Chapter Thirty-Eight: "The Second War Begins"

* And struggling manfully over the finishing line comes the final instalment of OOTP spork. Better late than never, as they say. :)

* Judging by the plot of the next couple of books, “war” in the wizarding world has the specialised meaning of “sitting in a tent doing nothing for several months”.

* Ginny and Neville have been totally cured, whilst Ron’s still bearing the scars of the brain attack. It would be nice to say that there’s some clever symbolic message behind this, but unfortunately this is a J. K. Rowling novel, so that would be a complete lie.

* Apparently “thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else” (ooh, profound!), but the effect is mitigated by rubbing “Dr. Ubbly’s Oblivious Unction” onto the scars. I suppose this foreshadows Ron’s complete lack of thoughts in the next one-and-a-half books: his mental capacity has been removed by the Oblivious Unction. His partial return to intelligence in the last half of Book Seven is because the effects are – finally – beginning to wear off.

* Why on earth does anybody take the Prophet seriously after this book? Surely Hermione can’t have been the only one to notice to total about-face they’ve done over Harry and the return of Voldemort. Not even wizards could be so stupid as to not notice that the paper spent all its time ridiculing Harry, but is now suddenly showering him with praise. Right?

* Hmm, so it appears that non-verbal spells are (all other things being equal) less powerful than verbal ones. Anybody with a better memory than me know if this idea is backed up in the rest of canon?

* Once again, I’m struck by Hermione’s arbitrary scepticism. So Crumple-Horned Snorkacks are stupid, but living in a magic castle learning to do spells with a magic wand and being taught by a centaur and a half-giant aren’t? You’d have thought that somebody who found out aged eleven that all this fairy-tale stuff was real would be a bit more hesitant to dismiss things, even if not many other people believed in them.

* Flitwick’s magicked away Fred and George’s swamp, but left a little bit as a sort of memorial to it. Because if you’re trying to run a school, obviously the best thing to do is to look like you admire flagrant pieces of rule-breaking. That couldn’t possibly have any negative effect on school discipline.

* Filch is unhappy that Umbridge is gone and Dumbledore has replaced her. Maybe I’m just missing JKR’s really subtle point about racism and bigotry here, but this seems to imply that the bigoted, pureblood-supremacist Umbridge actually treated Filch with more respect than the enlightened, tolerant Dumbledore. Consistency? Bah! Who needs it?

* Yay, let’s all laugh at the person who’s clearly suffering from PTSD! That’ll show everybody that we’re totally the heroes of this book!

* “‘How can you say that?’ Hermione demanded. ‘After we’ve just found out that there are real prophecies?’” Actually, that raises an interesting question: Dumbledore seems to consider the whole subject of Divination to be something of a joke, yet organises his entire military strategy around a prophecy. Yeah, I can totally see why he’s seen as this super-wise and intelligent person.

* Also, kudos to Hermione for actually changing her opinion on something when presented with new evidence. I know this is difficult for wizards to do, and I think she ought to get some credit for it. Anybody recall whether she expresses an attitude on Divination in the final two books?

* Swimming with a giant squid sounds quite dangerous. Do the pupils never suffer any mishaps in the lake? Or does Dumbledore just hush them up like he does most other injuries?

* Malfoy comes along and threatens Harry, enabling Our Hero to deliver a series of witty put-downs and remind us all how awesome he is.

* McGonagall bustles forth imperiously, shoving her bag at Crabbe and Goyle and telling them to take it to her office. Somehow I get the feeling that if Severus had done this to Harry, we’d be treated to a whiny internal monologue about how unfair it is for Snape to treat pupils like his own personal servants.

* Harry’s actually getting a bit short-changed here. I think most people who’d just alerted the world to the resurrection of an evil un-dead sorcerer would want more than a few House Points in return.

* Not content with imprisoning one giant in the Forbidden Forest, Hagrid’s now decided to find “a lady friend” for Grawp. We don’t hear anything about this idea in later books, so it looks like something fortunately came up to dissuade him from it.

* So Professor McGonagall has let Peeves borrow her walking-stick so he can use it to attack Umbridge. Nice to see her setting a good example to the students there.

* Although knowing how violent Wizarding society can be, they probably would think that she’s setting a good example.

* Hey, isn’t there a spell that enables people to pack trunks instantly? Maybe Hogwarts should try teaching pupils how to do that, rather than pointless things like making pineapples tapdance or turning rabbits into fluffy slippers.

* What is the point of the mirror subplot? It just makes Harry look like an uncaring, forgetful jerk for not opening it sooner. I know it’s featured in DH, but it would have been quite easy to come up with another way for Harry to receive it (like, say, having Dumbledore give it to them shortly before he dies).

* Also, I like the way that Harry assumes the mirror isn’t working because Sirius didn’t have it on him when he went through the veil, rather than because he’s, y’know, dead.

* So can ghosts choose to die later, then, or is the decision to stay on after death irreversible?

* Luna is openly putting up signs pleading for the return of her stuff… and neither Flitwick nor any of the other members of staff seem to be doing anything about the theft which is clearly rife in Ravenclaw. Nice to see the school taking such good care of its pupils.

* Alright, I agree that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were wrong to try and ambush Harry like that, and the DA members were right to stop them, but… was it really necessary to turn them into giant slugs? And then just leave them on the luggage rack without calling for help? They could have been seriously injured! Talk about disproportionate retribution…

* Also, the Malfoys seem curiously blasé about their only child getting hexed into deformity. This is the second time in a row that Draco’s been attacked like this, but apparently neither Lucius nor Narcissa see fit to make a complaint.

* Ernie’s looking forward to the expression of Mrs. Malfoy’s face when she sees her son because… he’s still annoyed at Draco for docking House Points. *sigh* And there was me thinking that Hufflepuff was the saner of the Hogwarts houses…

* Marietta Edgecombe’s still wearing a balaclava to cover her scars. Harry doesn’t feel any pity towards her, but on the other hand he doesn’t feel a thrill of vindictive triumph either, which is quite good going for him.

* Ginny’s split up with Michael Corner after he got upset that Gryffindor beat Ravenclaw at Quidditch. I think at this point I’m starting to get idiocy fatigue: earlier in the chapter I’d have felt compelled to make a remark about how annoyingly childish this is, but now my reaction is more along the lines of “Meh. I suppose that’s the sort of thing they would do in these books.”

* Ron suggests that Ginny goes out with “someone – better – next time”, giving Harry “an oddly furtive look” as he says it. This will be forgotten next book – presumably it’s too subtle for Harry to pick up on – and we’ll be treated to endless angsting about how Ron would react if Harry and Ginny started to go out together.

* Harry tells Mrs. Weasley he’s fine, but the narrative voice makes sure to tell us he’s lying. Harry’s not fine at all, because his life is full of angst and suffering, and he experiences pain that we non-chosen ones cannot begin to imagine.

* The Order members who greet Harry clearly reckon that the Dursleys will mistreat him given half the chance, but don’t think to find him somewhere else to live over the summer. It’s surprising how often Harry’s wizarding friends send him to live with a family of known abusers over the holidays, then get all shocked and self-righteous when they find out that Harry’s been abused.

* “It could not have been plainer that she was thinking of what the neighbours would say if they caught sight of these people marching up the garden path.” Really? I thought she was worrying about what they might do to her and her family, seeing as how they’re armed with magic and the Dursleys would be practically defenceless against them. Or is that not enough of a negative middle-class stereotype for JKR?

* This last scene makes me very uncomfortable. Maybe I’d feel different if the Dursleys’ abuse actually seemed to have some realistic consequences, rather than being all cartoony and impossible to take seriously, but the image of seven wizards threatening a family of defenceless Muggles isn’t one that I can enjoy.

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part 1:

Hmm, so it appears that non-verbal spells are (all other things being equal) less powerful than verbal ones. Anybody with a better memory than me know if this idea is backed up in the rest of canon?

What appears to have been non-verbal Sectumsempra that Severus cast at James in SWM was significantly less powerful than the one Harry cast at Draco in HBP. OTOH it seems some of the adults cast non-verbally most of the time, and then randomly verbalize their spells on occasion (well, whenever Rowling bothers with specifying the spell they are casting).

Once again, I’m struck by Hermione’s arbitrary scepticism. So Crumple-Horned Snorkacks are stupid, but living in a magic castle learning to do spells with a magic wand and being taught by a centaur and a half-giant aren’t? You’d have thought that somebody who found out aged eleven that all this fairy-tale stuff was real would be a bit more hesitant to dismiss things, even if not many other people believed in them.

Well, unicorns, spells, potions and giants at least exist in Muggle fairy-tales. Crumple-Horned-Snorkacks have no trace there.

Flitwick’s magicked away Fred and George’s swamp, but left a little bit as a sort of memorial to it. Because if you’re trying to run a school, obviously the best thing to do is to look like you admire flagrant pieces of rule-breaking. That couldn’t possibly have any negative effect on school discipline.

But school discipline is a joke, only Severus and Percy care about it. Sometimes Molly, but not too much.

but this seems to imply that the bigoted, pureblood-supremacist Umbridge actually treated Filch with more respect than the enlightened, tolerant Dumbledore.

In this book she was only bigoted towards non-humans and part-humans (merepeople, werewolves, part-giants and centaurs). My pet theory is that she developed her anti-Muggle-born attitude because of the way Hermione treated her.

Anybody recall whether she expresses an attitude on Divination in the final two books?

When Harry reveals the first prophecy we don't hear any skepticism from her. But otherwise Divination does not come up in her presence.

McGonagall bustles forth imperiously, shoving her bag at Crabbe and Goyle and telling them to take it to her office. Somehow I get the feeling that if Severus had done this to Harry, we’d be treated to a whiny internal monologue about how unfair it is for Snape to treat pupils like his own personal servants.

part 2:

And Minerva is supposed to be the fair teacher.

Harry’s actually getting a bit short-changed here. I think most people who’d just alerted the world to the resurrection of an evil un-dead sorcerer would want more than a few House Points in return.

OTOH a boy who recklessly endangered his friends and caused the death of his godfather ...

Not content with imprisoning one giant in the Forbidden Forest, Hagrid’s now decided to find “a lady friend” for Grawp. We don’t hear anything about this idea in later books, so it looks like something fortunately came up to dissuade him from it.

I doubt he had the time to travel back to the Urals for this purpose, so the only other giants in the vicinity were the two that served Voldemort. Hmm, maybe one of them was Grawp's intended.

What is the point of the mirror subplot? It just makes Harry look like an uncaring, forgetful jerk for not opening it sooner.

Harry decided not to open the package because he didn't want to cause trouble to Sirius. This decision ended up causing Sirius' death. It's all ironic like that. (Of course when he so needed to contact Sirus he should have thought of it. Or when he called Sirius from Umbridge's fireplace Sirius should have been surprised that Harry wasn't using the mirror.)

Luna is openly putting up signs pleading for the return of her stuff… and neither Flitwick nor any of the other members of staff seem to be doing anything about the theft which is clearly rife in Ravenclaw. Nice to see the school taking such good care of its pupils.

And in HBP we will see Dumbles telling Tom that thieving isn't tolerated at Hogwarts. Of course that was when the headmaster was Dippet.

Alright, I agree that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were wrong to try and ambush Harry like that, and the DA members were right to stop them, but… was it really necessary to turn them into giant slugs? And then just leave them on the luggage rack without calling for help?

And Draco is so evil for leaving Harry immobilized on the train and only breaking his nose (an injury easily healed by magic).

Also, the Malfoys seem curiously blasé about their only child getting hexed into deformity. This is the second time in a row that Draco’s been attacked like this, but apparently neither Lucius nor Narcissa see fit to make a complaint.

Lucius is in Azkaban at this point. I doubt Narcissa felt she was in position to complain now, especially against Harry and his friends.

Luna is openly putting up signs pleading for the return of her stuff… and neither Flitwick nor any of the other members of staff seem to be doing anything about the theft which is clearly rife in Ravenclaw. Nice to see the school taking such good care of its pupils.

And in HBP we will see Dumbles telling Tom that thieving isn't tolerated at Hogwarts. Of course that was when the headmaster was Dippet.

Oh, good one! The hypocrisy, it burns, it does!

I know this is just a small example of her lack of planning and co-ordination, but Rowling really just threw in whatever she liked, book to book, didn't she?

My guess is that Rowling doesn't consider what the kids do to Luna to be 'real' stealing because they return the items in response to the signs - it was just 'long term borrowing without asking'. Similarly in DH Hermione tries to justify her actions as not really stealing because she leaves money in return (though sometimes where it won't be found, like under the chicken coop).

Luna is openly putting up signs pleading for the return of her stuff…

It's not really "stealing", it's just a form of bullying and harassment, and that perfectly OK at Hogwarts.

Hit the nail on the head there.

Yes, more like holding her possessions hostage until she gives them the satisfaction of (more or less) begging for them back. Totally different!

Well said.

/Filch is unhappy that Umbridge is gone and Dumbledore has replaced her. Maybe I’m just missing JKR’s really subtle point about racism and bigotry here, but this seems to imply that the bigoted, pureblood-supremacist Umbridge actually treated Filch with more respect than the enlightened, tolerant Dumbledore./

I think that we were supposed to think that Filch missed her because she was just as nasty as him and she was the only one who would allow him to punish students the way he truly wanted to, i.e. brutal physical punishment.

/Then Snape arrives, and Harry feels “a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy”./

I wonder if anyone’s counted how many times this happens to Harry. He hates Dudley, but then Draco shows up and Harry hates him more. Then he hates Snape more, he hates Voldemort more, he hates Bellatrix more, then he’s back to hating Snape more, etc. Um, Harry, how about you actually start hating the person *directly responsible* for Sirius’ death? You know, Bellatrix? The person who actually killed him? It’d be one thing if you were blaming him because you were trying to not feel guilty about stupidly falling into Voldemort’s trap, but why are you blaming Snape for something that was primarily *Bellatrix’s* fault?

/Not content with imprisoning one giant in the Forbidden Forest, Hagrid’s now decided to find “a lady friend” for Grawp./

Just like he found a lady friend for Aragog. And we all know how that turned out.

/This is the second time in a row that Draco’s been attacked like this, but apparently neither Lucius nor Narcissa see fit to make a complaint./

Lucius tried to make a complaint when Draco was attacked by Buckbeak, but nothing came of it. I guess that they’ve learned by now that nothing they do will make a difference. Also, oryx_leucoryx is right; Lucius is in Azkaban at the moment, so Narcissa is in no position to make a complaint against Harry.

/Marietta Edgecombe’s still wearing a balaclava to cover her scars./

And this, of course, is completely different from Hermione’s scar from Bellatrix and Peter’s silver hand from Voldemort that will punish him for perceived disloyalty.

/Ginny’s split up with Michael Corner after he got upset that Gryffindor beat Ravenclaw at Quidditch./

Here is the first sign of the problem of Ginny’s love life before Harry. Sexist fans have condemned her for dating boys before Harry as if having multiple relationships is a crime. Ginny’s fans, justifiably indignant at the sexist slurs and double standards, retort that the only reason that people don’t like Ginny is that they think she’s a scarlet woman for dating several boys in high school, which is unreasonable and sexist. The problem is that *both* sides miss the point. It’s not that Ginny has boyfriends before Harry. It’s the fact that she breaks up with all of them for stupid and childish reasons, suggesting that she doesn’t really care about any of them. Together with her comment in HBP about how she never stopped liking Harry forms the uncomfortable assumption that she was just using them.

/This will be forgotten next book – presumably it’s too subtle for Harry to pick up on – and we’ll be treated to endless angsting about how Ron would react if Harry and Ginny started to go out together./

Yeah, I remember thinking that it made no sense when I was reading HBP for the first time because I *did* remember Ron’s line in OotP. Which made me wonder, “Umm, why would Ron have a problem with it? Didn’t he make it clear that he would prefer that Ginny date Harry than anybody else?”

/It’s surprising how often Harry’s wizarding friends send him to live with a family of known abusers over the holidays, then get all shocked and self-righteous when they find out that Harry’s been abused./

Given the way that they scoff at Muggle customs and laws, they *really* couldn’t find a way to trample over Muggle customs this time around just so that Harry wouldn’t have to live with the Dursleys? Do they have short-term memory loss or do they just accept Dumbledore’s pearls of wisdom that say that Harry’s better off in Privet Drive despite the abuse?

Why are you blaming Snape for something that was primarily *Bellatrix’s* fault?

It was also partly Sirius's own fault. He was joking around, taunting Bellatrix, as if the whole thing was some kind of lark. Sirius just didn't take it seriously. ;)

His treatment of Kreacher also played a role in it. There are so many people to blame for Sirius's death, Bellatrix chief among them of course, but there are also Harry, Sirius, Dumbledore etc. If I was Harry I'd blame Dumbledore.

Likewise, there are many people to blame for the death of Harry's parents, especially Voldemort (like, duh!), Wormtail and, once again, Dumbledore, but as with the death of Sirius, Harry simply blames Snape. And of course Dumbledore encourages that.

Then Snape arrives, and Harry feels “a great rush of hatred beyond anything ...

Yeah, way to go, Harry.

Edited 2012-06-23 23:08 (UTC)

And is staying safe at home while children are risking their lives something a brave Gryffindor would do?

Thinking that Sirius wouldn't have left the safety of his home if Snape hadn't been giving him a hard time is just stupid.

I don't like Sirius, but I don't think he is the kind of coward who would care more about his own safety than that of his godson.

Judging by the plot of the next couple of books, “war” in the wizarding world has the specialised meaning of “sitting in a tent doing nothing for several months”.

Yeah. I enjoyed OotP most of all, largely on how it set things up for a fair dinkum 'war'. But it was with the last two books that Rowling showed that she really had no idea what to do, other than a couple of images (Dumbledore dies, Harry wins). So - no 'war'. Just a few images stolen from World War II and the nazis.

Ginny and Neville have been totally cured, whilst Ron’s still bearing the scars of the brain attack.

I've always appreciated those fan fiction stories which left Hermione with a permanent wound, too. Which reminds Hary of how she almost died, or of her dedication to him. Or even stories where Ron comforts her over the scarring.

But yes, I think the wound is completely healed with a regime of potions at the end of this book. Only Ron ends up with the scars - which are never ever ever mentioned again. This is, after all, one-book-at-a-time, I-don't-read-my-own-books Rowling.

Once again, I’m struck by Hermione’s arbitrary scepticism. So Crumple-Horned Snorkacks are stupid, but living in a magic castle learning to do spells with a magic wand and being taught by a centaur and a half-giant aren’t?

Hermione just needs evidence or proof to back up theories; she's using the scientific method in the magical world. There's nothing wrong about that. She would have leartn all about the magical castle the day after she visited Diagon Alley and started reading 'Hogwarts, a History'. But snorkacks? If there's absolutely no evidence as to their existence then it's perfectly reasonable to deny their existence.

As you point out:

Also, kudos to Hermione for actually changing her opinion on something when presented with new evidence. I know this is difficult for wizards to do, and I think she ought to get some credit for it.

Yup. So there's nothing at all inconsistent with Hermione's treatment of Luna's unsupported whacky beliefs.

Then Snape arrives, and Harry feels “a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy”. You know, for a boy whose defining characteristic is his ability to love, Harry seems to feel a remarkable number of such rushes.

Bah. I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic about the 'power of love' thing, but yeah ... it didn't exist. Rowling set up the 'power the dark lord knows not' here but it just fizzled out. Harry showed no greater 'power of love' than any other good guy.

I always had contempt for Harry's automatic hatred of Snape from this point on. He never once tried to *think* ... to ponder the details of Snape's slaying of Dumbledore. Or why Snape let Harry go - when he was so obviously outmatched - at the end of HBP.

But no, Rowling wanted her little mystery of Snape's true allegiance to be intact through to the end, so - as was so often the case in her work - the characters suffered convenient lapses of characterisation or intelligence to suit authorial convenience.

Ginny’s split up with Michael Corner after he got upset that Gryffindor beat Ravenclaw at Quidditch.

And she moves immediately to lucky contestant #3, one Dean Thomas. Which is why I can't think of Ginny as anything more than 'The Girl Who Dates'. Well, fair enough maybe, that's all she was supposed to be - a simple love interest object for The Boy Who Lived.

Ron suggests that Ginny goes out with “someone – better – next time”, giving Harry “an oddly furtive look” as he says it. This will be forgotten next book – presumably it’s too subtle for Harry to pick up on – and we’ll be treated to endless angsting about how Ron would react if Harry and Ginny started to go out together.

Wonderful point, thank you! Wow, it's been 5 years since DH and yet I'm still surprised by little bits of insight which further show Rowling's flaws. In this case it's yet another symptom of her writing her books as largely stand-alone efforts (and never re-reading her own work).

* “‘How can you say that?’ Hermione demanded. ‘After we’ve just found out that there are real prophecies?’” Actually, that raises an interesting question: Dumbledore seems to consider the whole subject of Divination to be something of a joke, yet organises his entire military strategy around a prophecy. Yeah, I can totally see why he’s seen as this super-wise and intelligent person.

So did Harry only tell Dumbledore about the servant-rejoining-his-master prophecy? Because they really should have known that prophecies exist for two years now! Or is pointless secrecy a sign of goodness in the Potterverse as well?

* Hey, isn’t there a spell that enables people to pack trunks instantly? Maybe Hogwarts should try teaching pupils how to do that, rather than pointless things like making pineapples tapdance or turning rabbits into fluffy slippers.

Right at the start of this book, in fact. Clearly the mysterious art of packing is very advanced magic, far beyond simple things like giving temporary life to inanimate objects or creating things from nothing.

* Then Snape arrives, and Harry feels “a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy”. You know, for a boy whose defining characteristic is his ability to love, Harry seems to feel a remarkable number of such rushes.

OK, I know the complete wrongness of the super-special 'power of love' has been pointed out before. Rowling really does seem to define it as 'the power of implacably hating people who have hurt or offended those close to me'. But why does she think this is so unusual? I mean, so she prides herself on her ignorance of the fantasy genre, but even if she doesn't watch action movies she must be aware of what they are?

Is it just something that wizards don't generally do, and it doesn't count if muggles do it, like that unnamed mother (was she German?) sacrificing herself for her child?

Dumbledore's statement about Harry being protected from joining Voldemort because his ability to love his parents was so special - does that mean that most wizards would be fine with serving their parents' murderer?

(Hmm. If that's so, perhaps one of Hogwarts' roles is to instill this pragmatic attitude. Maybe there were terrible intergenerational blood feuds in the Founders' day?)

It's strange how special Lily is made out to be because she "sacrificed" her life to save her child.
Lily does it and Harry is protected Volemort nearly destroyed.
A muggle mother does it and nothing happens - of course muggles don't count!
In the muggle world a mother dying to protect their child would be a natural thing.In the wizarding world a mother dying to protect her child is "special".
In the muggle world refusing to serve some one who killed your parents would be normal. In the wizarding world Harry's refusal to serve his parents murder makes him special.
Why are wizards better than muggles again?

Well, to be fair, did Voldemort try to attack the German woman's children after he killed her? If so, then yes, the fact that nothing happened to him makes no sense. Unless the only reason why Lily's sacrifice worked is that there is some inherent magic in a sacrifice that a wizard makes, not a Muggle.

Yes, as I remember it, Voldemort killed the German woman's children after killing her. But, to be fair, what we are told is that Voldemort offered Lily a chance to live if she would step aside - and he meant it. He didn't offer the German woman any such chance. So the difference isn't the mother's action, but Voldemort's intent. It's still a mystery why Lily is considered so special for doing what any mother would do, however.

Who considers Lily special? Her fans do and Rowling does, but in universe the only people who consider Lily special are Horace (and that is about her behavior as a student), Dumbles (who had his own motives) and Severus.

And the fans mostly have this construct of Lily built on stretching the few bits about her in canon and wishfully interpreting them in the most favorable way possible without thinking too deeply.

I think the 'Love Power' involved is not Harry's, but instead Snape's. The only reason Lily's sacrifice worked was because Voldy had truthfully offered her the chance to live and she repeatedly (3 times is the charm!) offered herself instead - standing in the way.

In the end, it wasn't Harry's love that allowed him to come back from Voldy's AK - it was Lily's sacrifice. Therefore, Harry's 'power' that Voldy didn't know was Lily's protection in Harry's very skin. And that 'power' came from her sacrifice, which only worked because Snape asked Voldy to spare her and Voldy fully intended to do so. So, the actual 'love' comes from Snape's love of Lily as the instigator. Lily's love also plays a part, as does Harry's love for his friends that sends him off to meet Voldy alone. But it is Snape's love that begins it all.

I totally agree. However, many fans argue that Snape's love was "selfish" - it was only for Lily, and only because he wanted to "possess" her. While the former may be true, the latter is only an assumption.

Of course, Harry's "love" wasn't exactly universal, either.

They’re probably influenced by the descriptions of a young Severus looking “greedy” when he sees Lily for the first time and Dumbledore’s condemnation of Snape for only begging Voldemort to spare Lily and not James or Harry.

But, of course, the fact that Snape let Lily go after she ended their friendship – we never hear of him stalking her, harassing her, or pleading with her to forgive him and take him back after that – can possibly serve as a counterargument against the assumption that his love was selfish. Also, the fact that he tried to protect her child even after she was dead.

And the fact that he seemed ready to kill himself when she died. His reaction right after her death doesn't really make any sense if his love for her was entirely selfish.

And the fact that he went to Dumbles - did he for a moment think that would in any way lead to Lily being free to be with him? If his intent had been selfish all he needed was his request to Tom - either Lily would have survived alone (so he would be able to get her, maybe) or she would have died with her family (and he would have been no worse off). Going to Albus meant that if Lily were to survive, there was likelihood that her family would survive too.

And, since he thought that Dumbles might kill him, he was obviously willing to die to save her. Nothing selfish about that.

Voldemort offered Lily a chance to live if she would step aside - and he meant it.

Did he mean it? Or was he just saying it since Snape had asked him to spare Lily? That way he could say - "Well I offered the silly girl a chance"

Lily certainly had no reason to believe he meant it.

Yes, he meant it. If he had not; if she did not genuinely have a chance to live, her sacrifice would have been as meaningless as James'.

But, of course, she had no way of knowing that. Unless, as Jodel postulates, she set up Voldemort's fall. It would be nice to think that Lily had some agency here, but, given what we see in the text, she doesn't.

I also think it's supremely annoying that James' sacrifice (jerk though he is) is meaningless. But, in canon, it is. So is the sacrifice of that German mother, and that's REALLY irritating.

Did he mean it? Or was he just saying it since Snape had asked him to spare Lily? That way he could say - "Well I offered the silly girl a chance"

Lily certainly had no reason to believe he meant it. -- nx74defiant

I think I have to differ here. I think Lily DID believe it. Why else keep begging Voldy to kill her instead? IF she truly believes he will kill her afterwards, then asking him to kill her instead makes no sense.

I tend to believe that Lily and James thought Voldy had come for them - not for Harry. I doubt Albus ever mentioned the prophecy to them. As far as I can tell from canon, there' so indication that they knew. It isn't until Voldy asks Lily to step aside that I think she realizes Voldy wants Harry (not her). That is when she then offers herself instead. Three times (if I recall correctly). And I think with each plea she realizes it would be easier for Voldy to just AK her. Eventually, he decided the same.

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OOTP Chapter Thirty-Eight: "The Second War Begins"

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