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More grumbling about how the fans treat JKR...

I recognize that this is several months after the fact, but as a Jew, I can't help but be a bit miffed by the fact that people felt the need to ask Rowling if there were Jewish students at Hogwarts. Surely that's something they could have inferred themselves, if they so chose? Yet, they were so thrilled to learn that Anthony Goldstein was Jewish straight from the author's mouth. Leaving aside for a moment the fact that Anthony Goldstein never says or does anything, ever, in the entire course of the series (and is a Ravenclaw, note, not a Gryffindor), to me that's a bit like a Jewish metalhead going up to the guys in Iron Maiden and asking permission, as a Jew, to be a fan. It is true that the members of Iron Maiden had said they'd welcome Jewish fans--which near as I can tell was without a prompt, and in any case didn't focus specifically on Jewish fans but was more a blanket "We're so accepting and welcoming that we take all types of fans!" thing. Either way I have never, ever, ever heard of anyone asking the members of Iron Maiden if they accept fans of their racial or cultural background, because that's simply not how it works--either you like Maiden's music and consider yourself a fan or you don't. Likewise, if you think there ought to be Jewish students at Hogwarts you're well within your rights to imagine there being, and the author's own ideas on the subject don't and shouldn't have to play into this at all.

And here's the thing: the UK is a fairly diverse, multicultural place already. Probably it has representatives of the majority of races, cultures, and creeds that have ever existed living there (granted, this is not to say that it's without discrimination or prejudice--but that's slightly off-topic). So...shouldn't it be reasonably expected, that if a group is represented by a cross-section of the UK's population (Hogwarts is the leading British wizard school, Iron Maiden are a British band and initially gained traction in the UK before going international...), that group will contain at least a few Jews by definition? Because there are plenty of Jews that live in the UK. I even met some of them when I studied abroad there.

I just think it's ridiculous that these fans can't come to their own conclusions about this, but instead have to ask the author about it. Can they not make their own decisions about anything related to the series at all?

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How horrible do you have to think of Hogwarts when you think they wouldn't allow Jews, unless it's confirmed by author?

Edited 2015-04-26 20:54 (UTC)

Perhaps they simply think nothing in the series is 'real' unless specifically confirmed by the author?

Some people are precise like that

It's frightening. I mean, why wouldn't there be? Are there people with earrings at Hogwarts? We shouldn't need to confirm that a place that supposedly lets in anyone with magical talent would not allow Jews.

Or are Jews just not able to be wizards?

Not to mention that IF it were that important to someone in particular, then you think they would have noticed when a jewish name came up. It isn't as if Goldstein was added on. He was in the book all along.

Personally, while I am not jewish, I was more upset about the way the goblins seemed to have been given what would amount to presumed jewish stereotypical characteristics of the past. It wasn't quite as bad as say the medieval period, since no one accused goblins of eating babies (honestly believed once of the jews in medieval christian europe)

Edited 2015-04-26 23:00 (UTC)

"Not to mention that IF it were that important to someone in particular, then you think they would have noticed when a jewish name came up."

That's very true. I noticed his name immediately.

I agree the way the goblins are treated is fairly problematic, and so too is the fact that she made the disagreeable teacher a pale-skinned brunet with a hooked nose (all stereotypically "Jewish" traits). It's even worse if you think about how she then tries to equate Voldemort with Nazism, a regime that categorically targeted Jews, and expects to be praised for doing so (only to then turn around and say that said stereotypically-Jewish-looking teacher was WORSE than him because he was CAPABLE OF LOVE)....

I think I feel a second rant coming on.

You know, speaking of unfortunate implications and the like, maybe I'm just being oversensitive, but the way the Asian characters in the series were treated always rubbed me the wrong way. They were all attractive girls (there's nothing wrong with that on it's own, of course), that seemed to be used to play second-stringer to the Real (white) Love Interests and prop up how much better they were.
It's an old trope actually, where the white protagonist samples an exotic, Eastern beauty as long as he ends with the good, pure white girl at the end of story.

I'm South Asian on my dad's side, and it just always bothered me... Maybe I'm just over-thinking it; but I remember feeling really sad when I realized Cho was just being used by the narrative to show how much better Ginny was.

Sadly Rowling does have kind of an unfortunate habit of trying to pass off outdated stereotypes as empowering. "I want my school to look racially-tolerant so I'll create an Asian character! And I'll make her good-looking and good at Quidditch to show I'm totally not stereotyping Asians as weak or inferior! Oh, but now she exists just to unsuccessfully date Harry. Oops!"

See also: Dumbledore is Gay.

"It's an old trope actually, where the white protagonist samples an exotic, Eastern beauty as long as he ends with the good, pure white girl at the end of story."

Harry James Potter, otherwise known as Benjamin Franklin Pinkerton. Well, at least Cho didn't kill herself.

Well, she and Harry weren't married, and she hadn't had his child, then been abandoned, then had him come back with another wife. Under those circumstances, she might have. Which would have proven what a coward she was because she wasn't willing to live for her child's sake.

I'm rereading Arsenoe de Blassenville's "Best Revenge" series. One of my favorite scenes is when Scummywhore gets raked over the coals by Charity for his misogynistic remarks about Merope. It's even more effective because she's usually so mild-mannered--and she's backed up by the other witches! Yay!

I'd forgotten that--which chapter was it?

Oh dear, you would ask that. It took some combing through the books to find it, since I finished it a week ago, and I've read about 3 other books since then. Anyway, it's in Time of the Basilisk, chapter 22. She also talks about how Tom should have been allowed to stay at Hogwarts during WWII.

Thanks! (goes back & re-reads)--I do like AB's Charity....

I liked it too.

Charity ask how was Merope to know using a love potion was wrong? Merope was never taught that.

But even if Merope had gone to Hogwarts she wouldn't have been taught it was wrong.

I really want to read this rant now.

In the immortal words of Smoky Robinson, I second that emotion!

It's doubly ridiculous if you consider the fact that we KNOW that there are Black people at Hogwarts (Dean Thomas, Lee Jordan, Blaise Zabini...), and people of South and East Asian descent (the Patil sisters, Cho Chang...). So why in the hell shouldn't there also be Jews?!

You know - I'm not sure exactly why, but I was very confused when we got a description of Neville.

I think it might have been a combination of 'Neville Brothers' and 'Longbottom' reminding me of Longbottom Leaf in Tolkein. I imagined him as from the West Indies before his description really set in. Which was really weird of me since the Neville Brothers are not from there.

Of course, Neville is a much more british name - not one we often run into in the USA - altho' we might have more Nevilles coming up after this series.

Edited 2015-04-27 02:42 (UTC)

Despite what might have been said in the text, I never did think of Neville Longbottom as anything but white, maybe because my brain immediately jumped to the most famous RL Neville that I knew: Neville Chamberlain. Which is a bit of a missed opportunity that Rowling didn't name her universe's head-in-the-sand Appeasement leader dude that instead.

I'd have been less upset if the question had been "In Harry's year." But to imagine that the school is Jew-free unless specifically mentioned is scary to me.

we KNOW that there are Black people at Hogwarts (Dean Thomas, Lee Jordan, Blaise Zabini...)

Do we? The only black person I remember being referred to in the books is Angelina Johnson, who dated Fred and married George Weasley. I haven't seen the movies, so I don't confuse book canon with movie canon. I also remember hearing that so little was said about Blaise before the movies came out that many people thought the character was a girl.

Instead of real blacks in the books, we get mudbloods, the made-up, all-purpose, stand-in minority. Certainly many black fans of the books identify with them, or we wouldn't have arguments about Severus calling Lily that. I don't get why "mudblood" is a worse term than "muggleborn," the "polite" word that is derived from a racist epithet.

Blaise is specifically described as black in bk6. I remember being terribly surprised because I had imagined him as typically 'italian' looking - shame on me since of course italians can be black as well as any other nationality - especially if it was his mother who was black.

I do not recall right now if Lee Jordan was ever specifically described as black or if it was only that he was said to have dredlocks - which of course could still work if he was white or any other 'race'. The first description of him would be when Harry sees him showing the twins his tarantula on Harry's first trip to Platform 9-3/4 Altho' I think it was at the least 'assumed' he was black due to his hair, it does not necessarily mean he was if he wasn't described in any other way.

Dean Thomas is specifically described as black from the very beginning.

Blaise is specifically described as black in bk6.

Which was written after several of the movies had been made, with a black boy cast in the role. That's my point. In the early books, we're only given his name, nothing about his sex, race, or any other distinguishing characteristic.

I think when Lee Jordan was first introduced, Rowling said that he was a boy with a Dreadlocks hairdo, which is a common thing among black people and less among white or Asian people, right?

Hm, well, there could be more than one issue at work here. I recall that a few years back, the producer of the show Midsomer Murders replied to a similar question by saying that he WASN'T planning to cast any black actors in the show because it was about a quintessentially English place or something like that. (I guess he decided that black people can be really English since because there are like six black people in the county now.) So the question might not be "are there Jewish students even if we have not seen them?" But "given the old timey feel with all the treacle tarts and no curry ever, is it still the 13th century at Hogwarts with no Jews allowed? You wrote black and Asian students in so maybe you are not opposed to Jews in your English boarding school fantasy?"

Also I have read more than one aacount of kids who concluded from never seeing their own groups in fantasy that it could not happen. Might have been Pam Noles in her essay "Shame" who remembered telling her dad that black people could not be wizards. And my own cousin at age 4 popped up with the idea that girls could not be doctors despite literally no one in his life saying any such thing and thinking it a ridiculous idea, because he never saw any women doctors and possibly some cartoons made jokes about girliness. So the question might also originate there--"I have never seen a Jewish wizard and the kids at school said I could not be Harry because he isn't Jewish, but there could too be a Jewish wizard, could't there?" Sad that this has to be asked, but again, the Midsomer guy shows it does!

Or one might legitimately wonder if the 13th century ban on Jews in England is still in effect at this magic school run by an English ministry. The ww is awfully far behind sometimes...

Except that Goldstein was there from the first book. He's the same year as Harry. He's even in the DA. So, if a young kid was looking for specifically jewish wizards as some sort of role model, I think he would have been noticed. True, he's not a main character - he's barely mentioned, but he is there.

Easy enough to miss a name while skimming the crowd scenes to get to the action. Not everyone knows the names of chars who never do or say much backwards and forwards! Add that to the impression the goblins give and I can see how someone could miss the solitary clue, get the bad vibes subconsciously, and wonder.

It's not just the goblins. Can you think of anyone in the Potterverse with a large hooked nose and long greasy black hair who is persecuted and almost killed for no better reason than because he exists and who yearns "greedily" after a pure white woman who is altogether too good for him?

But she's not a pure white woman. She's a mudblood, who is considered a black stand-in by many black fans. Sure she looks white, with her red hair, green eyes, and milky skin, but she's really not. So the black stand-in character is too good for the Jewish/dirty foreigner stand-in character. That's seriously messed up.

I'm not sure that I would equate ALL muggleborns with blacks. There was a time in UK history when anyone who wasn't specifically 'english' would have been considered second class.

Lily's description would fit many irish - as would the Weasley family who are quite poor and have 'too many children' and Lily's name (Evans) is very welsh - both countries that England took over.

I do agree however that many black fans might see the muggleborns as disenfranchised and so relate to their position in the wizarding world - but one could say the same for muggleborns and jews since Voldy's war on muggleborns is 'supposed' to remind us of Hitler. Of course Hitler did not limit himself to jews either.

Forgot to add - it is interesting that the black characters in the books are not specifically identified AS muggleborns. While Dean is presumed to be a muggleborn, he is actually a half-blood (according to info from JKRs old website).

Blaise is 'presumed' to be a pureblood, but I do not think the books ever actually said so and we know that it is quite possible to be a halfblood in Slytherin.

And I do not think Lee's blood status was ever mentioned. He speaks out on Potterwatch, but so does Remus (a halfblood) and Fred (a pureblood)

Of all the black characters in the books, the one most likely to be an actual muggleborn (altho' not specifically described as one) is Kingsley who can dress very muggle and was able to fit in sufficiently well at No.10 Downing in an administrative position that the Prime Minister had to be informed he was a wizard. This is in summer of 1996. That means he had to be not just computer-literate, but actually quite skillful at it.

At some point Kingsley refers to 'firearms' as 'fire-legs' so that would suggest he wasn't a Muggleborn. From my recollection, in 1996, quite a few Muggles were getting used to computers in the workplace, so if he was quick on the uptake he wouldn't have stood out if he needed to learn from scratch.

Forgot that about 'fire-legs'! Good point!

However, if he was that out of it muggle-wise then I'm shocked he wasn't discovered.

Maybe he was discovered, for a while. But whoever discovered him quickly 'forgot', mysteriously.

The wizarding world would need computer experts to keep their secret in the modern world.

Just removing the memory isn't enough, you need to remove the computer records.

Yet they don't even know how to pronounce electricity. And consider driving cars some mysterious achievement. What are their chances?

Lee Jordan attends the QWC with his father, so we know he has wizarding heritage on at least one side.

Blaise's parents were definitely wizards, but we don't know how deep his magical heritage goes.

Someone once made the point that while there are people of various races in Wizarding Britain, they are pretty marginal in the story. To which I responded that I can understand how Rowling ended up with the very central characters being white, because many of them are based on people she knew IRL (including herself), but still there was room for plenty of non-white people in more significant roles - people like the Longbottoms, the Lovegoods, or you know, the Blacks.

While I agree with you about more significant roles, there is an inherent problem with doing so. Of the three you mentioned, each would cast a slight on whatever non-white race they were chosen to depict. Making the Lovegoods a different race would imply 'looneyness' and would color Luna's problems with bullies as possibly race related. The only way around race-related bullying would have been to have Luna as another asian and have her primary bully be Cho. But that would open up another can of worms.

To use the Blacks would then imply that whatever race chosen would be primarily 'dark' and would imply that Sirius (who seems to have chosen Gryffindor to simply be with James) could only be 'light' by adapting to 'white' friends. Even tho' we have other races in Gryffindor in Harry's time (Angelina, Dean and 'probably' Lee) And imagine still calling the family 'Black' if they were actually black!

And if one of the other Marauders had been another race (other than James or Sirius), then you would have the problem of aligning that race with either a spineless but occasionally violent Remus or a toady Peter who eventually betrays James

And while Neville's parents seem alright, imagine what it would seem like if his great uncle was another race and dropping him out of windows and off piers.

Even changing one of the trio could have played on stereotypes. Imagine know-it-all Hermione as asian or poverty-line Weasleys as black

The best place to have added someone of a non-white race would have been as one of Hogwarts regular teachers - not DADA and not Snape (since he was suspected so often). That would have left only Minerva really as a possible, since the other teachers are really secondary and Albus turned out to be so manipulative.

JKR could also have added more non-whites to the Order (other than Kingsley - who I have to say seems at least one of the most competent members), but again it depends upon which one. Certainly not Dung!

In other words, the problem really amounts to the many ways she 'fleshed' out her characters. She did so by giving almost everyone some flaw (some worse than others), but they still were stereotypes in some form.

Having the Blacks be a different race would show that wizarding 'racism' is orthogonal to our sense of racism, as they were a powerful family while they lasted. And having them be the black Blacks would be exactly the sort of thing I'd expect of Rowling.

If not only Algie but the entire Longbottom clan were non-whites I'm not sure how that were to play to racist stereotypes?

Of course when Rowling started writing she had no idea Neville was going to become a significant character, nor do I think she thought out Sirius' family background before she completed GOF (specifically, I don't think she had planned on Sirius and Bella to be cousins).

As for the trio - you know, she could have reversed the stereotypes. But she couldn't, because Hermione is a self-insert, and Ron is her best friend from school. But there once were speculations about Hermione being an ethnic minority, possibly Jewish, in the early days of fandom.

Hmm, Tonks could have had some interesting ethnic background from her father's side. Since she was invented specifically to answer the question of female representation anyway.

Or you know, Rowling could have made better use of the non-white students she already had in the story, rather than keeping them as failed romantic interests for Harry and Ginny. Except she couldn't because the only one who is allowed to do any resistance to tyranny on stage is Harry and the only one allowed to solve problems is Hermione.

I know we’re not allowed to say so these days, but statistics matter in this sort of thing. Ethnicity is not random. Although there are more non-white Britons today than there were in the Nineties (when the events in canon took place), and there were more in the Nineties than there were in the Seventies (during the First Vold War), white people are still by far the majority in Britain. Therefore, in a story set in Britain, if a character’s color is not specified, one is justified in assuming that person is white, without people thinking one is racist for assuming that. It’s simply a matter of statistical liklihood.

Likewise if a story is set in China and a character’s ethnicity is not specified, one is justified, by statistical liklihood, in assuming the character is Han, and not, say, Uighur. It’s not impossible that, in a Chinese version of the Potterverse, the Blacks or the Grangers or the Evanses would be Uighurs or Mongols or Tibetans, but the odds are really against it. And if it were the case, it would have a major impact on the story that we do not see happening in canon.

This is the bravest LJ comment I've seen in a very, very long time,

jana_ch. In an age where it's in vogue to spout pretentious BS such as "Don't play the 'historically accurate' card when you depict rape in fiction, because it's misogynistic to do that, period," it is indeed becoming a revolutionary act to tell the truth as it is (Sorry for butchering your line, Mr. Orwell), no matter how uncomfortable it might be.

For those who are interested in knowing, China has a population of 1.5 billion, and according to the latest census, about 92% of it are of Han ethnicity, and the rest are spread amongst 55 "ethnic minorities" (the largest of which has a population of some 20 million, and the smallest amount to about 2,000 to 3,000 people) and a very small number of foreigners who had obtained Chinese citizenship. A big percentage of non-Han Chinese people live in the five autonomous regions (Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Ningxia, Guangxi and Xizang/Tibet) which are province-sized areas with much more political autonomy than your average Chinese province, and also the autonomous prefectures and municipalities contained within a number of provinces. There's also a substantial number of minorities living in large cities. In the past 60+ years the regime has been doing a lot in trying to solve and smooth away the stress and friction between ethnic groups, with the main brand of "racism" here being Han-chauvinism. A huge deal is constantly being made via education and propaganda of the importance of every ethnic group doing their part in shaping the country into what she is today, such as the people in every region doing their best to fight the Japanese invaders from 1931 to 1945 (Tibetan caravansaries of the ancient Roads of Tea and Horses, for example, helped transport precious Hump Course war supplies to the southwestern home front).

So if we were to set a parallel magical world over here, it would depend a lot on the location of the castle. If it's hidden in, say, Beijing, then the background characters would make sense to be mostly Han people, and if it's set in Lhasa, it would make sense to have a large percentage of Tibetan and other minority groups in the characters' makeup. To bring it back to @jana_ch's original point, statistics do matter in this kind of thing.

Edited 2015-05-08 03:02 (UTC)

I chose the analogy of Han mainly so there would be no white people involved, and my readers might be able to see past the supposed racism. I hesitated to use it precisely because population proportions are not at all the same; there is a far greater numerical disparity between Han and other ethnicities in China than between the various white ethnicities in Britain on the one hand, and its non-white population on the other. But as a general analogy rather than a precise numerical rule, the comparison holds.

Besides, I have for decades had an interest in the Central Asian peoples, especially the Tibetans, and I went to grad school with someone who is now a recognized authority on the Uighurs. (Hi, Stan! No, I’m sure he’s not reading this.)

Thanks for your supportive words. I was afraid I might get hammered for this. And it might still happen, but having even one person understand my point and support me makes a huge difference.

Edited 2015-05-08 06:08 (UTC)

Not sure if this is terribly on-topic, but I'm sensing yet another [][][][]storm brewing as the news comes out that Tilda Swinton is hopeful to being cast as The Ancient One in the upcoming Dr Strange film. Tumblr and Twitter had already been eroding my brain with their outcries when Benedict Cumberbatch was cast as D.S. (because the character is Latino in the comics, though my more Marvel-savvy brother told me that he started off as white) and now they seem to be casting a white person as a Tibetan-Asian character. But then ther's also the gender-flip to consider.

I think a big part of the problem is that America is a great melting-pot, and a lot of people want to reflect that in the movies, but sometimes it's hard to let an America production be truly "global" despite the melting pot thing going on. They're reaching too far and their arm gets the proverbial cramp.

The new version of Dr Strange is Latino? I had no idea! Back when I knew him in the Sixties through the early Eighties, he was most certainly white. Stephen Strange is not exactly a Hispanic name. When did they turn him into a Latino? Strictly speaking, “Latino” is a linguistic category, not a racial one, but the original Dr Strange was not only pale-skinned but a native English speaker as well.

I don't have a problem with the *number* of non-white characters. I was pointing out how marginal their roles were in the story. Not the same thing. (Also sympathizing with the reader who specifically disliked their use as failed romantic interests.)

The vast majority of the characters in canon are marginal. One might say that the only non-marginal characters are Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, and Snape.

Yes, the non-white characters are all unimportant tokens, but most of the white characters are insignificant as well.

A wizard can pick up on the use of technology by Legilimencing Muggles, you know.

Legilimency appears to be more like archeology than like reading a technical manual, or even a novel. You uncover bits and pieces of someone’s experiences and attempt to interpret them in a reasonable fashion, but you can never be sure how accurate your interpretation is without confirmation from another source.

For example, there are endless fanfics of Severus’s father being horribly abusive, or even murderous, to his wife and son, based on nothing more then a quick fragment of memory Harry saw in his Occlumency lesson. But we don’t know what the man in the memory was shouting about, or how often this sort of thing happened in the Snape household, or even if the man was Tobias rather than, say, Grandpa Prince. I don’t think a wizard could learn to use technology by seeing mental snippets of me surfing the internet, watching a DVD, and having Roadside Assistance jump my car battery.

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More grumbling about how the fans treat JKR...

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Charity dissing Scumbles

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(HP fan currently living in China popping in...)

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