deathtocapslock | What Backstory Would You Have Wanted for Snape?

Entry tags:

What Backstory Would You Have Wanted for Snape?

Hi, first time poster, long (long, long, long) time lurker. I almost want to apologize for making this post, as it's about one of the most (and yet not enough?!) oft-repeated complaints surrounding DH, namely the handling of the motivations behind one Severus Snape.

A tl;dr background of myself: I read the first six books some time in 2006-7 and become absolutely consumed by the series. And then DH broke my heart to pieces with its release. I spent the next 5 years recovering those pieces and healing, and thankfully I was still able to find fans whose opinions still jived with mine up until 2012, when I woke up one morning and finally threw the series away in disgust and through weariness. For reasons unknown to me, I've started dabbling with fandom again recently - I suspect I'm probably in that stage where I need a new hobby but have nothing new to fall back on so I'm nostalgic. Because I was a fan for so short a time before the series concluded, I've always almost felt like I was never a "true" fan since I wasn't part of most of the discourse pre-DH. And yet I consider myself as being from "that generation of HP fans", and not the newer generation made up of so many Snape-haters I see on more currently relevant social media platforms like Reddit and Tumblr. I hope that doesn't make me sound elitist but, well, fuck it, lol (we can swear, right??).

And that brings me to why I'm here: it's amazing how the general sentiment in fandom has shifted so drastically from the loudest voices pre-DH saying how much they love Snape to the present post-DH era, where he's reduced to a friend-zoned, incel, Nice Guy {insert whatever other labels anti-Snape fans attach to him}. The point I'm really trying to make is: I feel almost completely out of touch with most places discussing Snape on the Internet except for DTCL. I truly want to thank you all for still being around, from the bottom of my heart. I hope this is okay, but I particularly want to thank torchedsong for making her post also talking about how Snape was flattened as a character - it made me realize there are still people around in the fandom who remembered the potential he used to have.

And now to come to the title of the post. I want to wholeheartedly reject the "Lily as end-all, be-all" motivation. So I was wondering:

- What would YOU have liked for Snape's motivation to have been for becoming Dumbledore's man?
- What kind of scenario do you imagine led him to make the change?
- Prior to the release of DH, what were you /hoping/ for his motivation to be?

I have to admit that I struggle with these questions myself. For example, a number of slash fans played with with idea of Snape's motivation to have been Regulus Black. And honestly, while this would have been less of a character-destroying reveal (not that JKR would ever actually go down this route), it would make the matter of Snape's opinions regarding blood politics and his moral development more complicated. So an additional question:

- What kind of motivation/catalyst would you have liked for Snape to realize that not just violence but any kind of discrimination based on blood is wrong? (Unless you would have been fine for him to just have a personal, selfish motive behind betraying Voldemort, that's fine too).

Thank you ♡

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's always puzzled me why anyone would take Snape's request to Voldemort at face value. "Please, my lord, spare my friend (who isn't speaking to me) because you respect the Power of Love" is not going to fly; of course he'd tell Voldemort it was about revenge or lust or pride etc. Things Voldemort could understand--and, crucially, things that wouldn't make him decide, "Hey, it sounds like she'd be a great hostage for Sevvie's good behavior. The sap really cares." Regardless, Snape obviously didn't think there was much chance of Voldemort honoring the request, so it was probably insurance rather than his Plan A. That is, I think he asked Voldemort because even a slim chance of Voldemort sparing Lily was better than none if all else failed. Whether he'd gotten as far as deciding that "all else" meant going to Dumbledore rather than some other plan, I'm not sure, but it's not like there were many options besides going to Dumbledore.

I'd have liked his motivation to be multi-faceted. Which canon doesn't rule out, but doesn't do a lot to support either. It could have been a combination of any of the following:

Losing first his best friend and then realizing he's endangered her life because of his DE affiliation
Finding out horrible things Mulciber has done and wishing he'd listened when Lily warned him Mulciber was evil
Hearing that his leader has (supposedly) murdered a schoolkid like Regulus
Wondering whether Regulus really died because of "cold feet" or whether he knew too much--and if so, what could be horrible enough to turn a dedicated fanboy like that
The DEs ramping up the violence and targeting undeniably innocent people
Being given a suicide mission (get Hogwarts job > assassinate Dumbledore) and realizing he's a disposable dupe, not a valued member of the group
Finding out how much crossover there is in membership between the DEs, the Order, and the Ministry, and wondering how much of this is actually old men using kids to do their fighting (over power rather than strictly ideology, at that)
Realizing just how likely any attempt to conquer the Muggle world is to end up nuclear war, or at least a new round of witch hunts which will probably destroy the magical population
Wondering whether maybe that's Voldemort's real plan (easy to be the most powerful wizard in Britain if you're the only wizard, just for starters)
Fenrir Greyback--no way can your boss be a good guy if he employs someone like that
Somehow finding out about the Dark Lord's childhood and realizing that torturing fellow orphans into probable insanity is a really, really bad sign

And probably a few more possibilities I'm forgetting. If the other motivations were fleshed out, I'd be fine with Lily's peril being the final straw. He could also have more mixed feelings--being more hurt and angry about her cheerfully dating a vicious bully while claiming to disapprove of such people, but also having some fond memories and being horrified at the idea of her dying because of something he did. It would help a lot if we found out that Snape and Lily were childhood friends at the end of HBP (at the latest). Then we'd have time for the information to sink in, maybe to find out more details throughout DH instead of in a single infodump at the end, and there would be room to include more nuance. Maybe the Prince's Tale could have included a memory or two of Snape being horrified at something the DEs and/or Voldemort did if we got more of the Lily info earlier somehow.

As for the discrimination part, that's tough, because even the "good" wizards treat Muggles poorly. (I'm not sure whether he ever had any deep convictions about Muggle-borns rather than just deciding that his housemates were a little obsessed, but whatever, people say stupid stuff, it's just words, and look at the decent things they do... So that would be a matter of realizing that his friends did mean it and those "just words" really can be dangerous. Which his friends' actions during the war might well have accomplished.) So what could convince him that discriminating against Muggles is wrong? I think this would be a longer process. I'll have to think more.

Edited 2019-06-04 04:11 (UTC)

/the general sentiment in fandom has shifted so drastically from the loudest voices pre-DH saying how much they love Snape to the present post-DH era, where he's reduced to a friend-zoned, incel, Nice Guy {insert whatever other labels anti-Snape fans attach to him}/

I think that there were still plenty of sites that disliked Snape pre-DH, though. The HMS-STFU community on LJ often mocked 'Snapefen' and 'Snapewives' and there were still plenty of people who believed that Snape was going to turn out to be a villain in the end.

But yes, the mess that was Snape's backstory in DH certainly hasn't done him any favors in the current discourse of Tumblr, Reddit, and similar sites. People calling him a Nice Guy (TM) and an abuser and whatnot are the same people who've gone after fans of popular villains like Loki and Kylo Ren. Heck, many of Kylo's detractors have mockingly called him 'Young Snape' as a pejorative. There have always been HP fans who've hated Snape, it's just that Tumblr has given them new vocabulary with which to justify their hatred of him.

I didn't have any theories going into DH, I just saw what other people had suggested. For me, the Lily and Snape fiasco was so poorly written and conceived that I think that basically anything else would've been better. JKR's decision to write the Marauders as a bunch of unrepentent bullies without ever acknowledging how terrible their actions were and without letting James truly reform was one of the biggest mistakes of the series. It turned what could have been mildly poignant about Lily/Snape into a trainwreck. The whole Snape/Lily/James farce just made everyone involved look awful. So, as far as I'm concerned, any theory that eliminates Lily and the Marauders from the picture is a better one.

One theory I heard was that Snape and Regulus were good friends and they both realized what they'd gotten themselves into when it was too late, with Regulus's death being the final straw for Snape. Snape personally witnessing horrifying violence towards Muggles and bystander wizards was another theory that I saw (in fact, it was also used in combination with the Snape and Regulus theory). I also remember reading a comment by someone who wrote a fanfic where part of Snape's motive for his love for his wife, an OC who was a fellow Death Eater and who was locked up in Azkaban after Voldemort framed her.

I never really saw Snape as racist, so that's why I didn't think that his motive for joining Voldemort was blood purity and therefore he didn't leave Voldemort because he realized that he was wrong about Muggles/Muggle-borns. I think that before Snape's motive can be established, you have to delve into what exactly Voldemort is offering to his followers. Most of his followers come from wealthy pureblood families, so why are they listening to this upstart weirdo with the snake? What can he offer them that they can't accomplish themselves? If they're in it because their parents were (from Tom's school days), then what was the reason for their parents to sign up with him? And how does Snape the half-blood fit in?

As for Snape's involvement with Dumbledore, well, back in the days before Dumbledore was revealed to be as manipulative as he is, there were theories that Dumbledore had saved Snape's life or vice versa, that Dumbledore served as the father figure that Snape never got from Tobias, that Dumbledore protected Eileen from Death Eaters who wanted to kill her for being a blood traitor, etc. Another theory that I saw was that Snape was Dumbledore's spy all along, that he was never truly a Death Eater, just a mole, which is why Dumbledore had such complete trust in him.

Honestly, any theory which posits Snape as a man of principles, who is unpleasant but still cannot stand by while innocents are dying and where Dumbledore is not a callous manipulator, but a true mentor who genuinely cares about Snape would go beyond what DH did in explaining why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much and why Snape has been willing to repeatedly put his life on the line for him.

I hope this is okay, but I particularly want to thank torchedsong for making her post also talking about how Snape was flattened as a character - it made me realize there are still people around in the fandom who remembered the potential he used to have.

Thank you for the mention! I posted that rant months ago because I felt similar to yourself about Snape. It seems like ages ago, but whenever I pop back in the HP fandom, the immense disappointment over how Snape's redemption was handled comes back to me like a wave.

As for how I would've have liked Snape's motivations to be written... I've discussed this before, so I'll try to keep it simple: literally anything other than making his entire existence revolve around Lily would've been fine with me. I don't care if it was for selfish or selfless reasons—as long as Snape left the Death Eaters of his own volition, then it would've worked for me.

I didn't mind Dumbledore being a manipulative bastard or Snape being a mean bastard; both of those characterizations made them interesting. What bothered me was how JKR seemed to continue placing Dumbledore on the can-do-no-wrong pedestal even after it was revealed how callous he was. And Snape? Giving the rest of his life to the light side in exchange for atonement meant nothing because it ended up being all about the goodness of pure perfect Lily Evans. His redemption wasn't about his choices or character—it was about Lily. It made him look obsessed, pathetic, and static, effectively demolishing all the potential he had.

If Snape had left for selfish reasons, like his life was being threatened and he needed protection, I would've preferred even that over the ridiculous True Love story of Snape/Lily. I still have a hard time believing how a resentful man like Snape would continue loving a girl who chose his bullies over him. Even the kindest man would feel some smudge of bitterness towards Lily. But JKR is obsessed with her ideas of childhood love prevailing over all, so Snape had to remain besotted over a girl who was written with no depth beyond the link she had to several male characters.

I also would've been fine with Snape having a gradual growth; his reasons for leaving the Death Eaters starting out as self-serving, but changing into something more meaningful over time. He may not like or love his students, but he learns to value human life and draw the line at needless torture and murder. It would've been a powerful story if JKR showed us how even a nasty teacher like Snape had a moral compass and the capability to care for his fellow man, even if he didn't personally like them. Before DH, I thought that's where she was going with his character and the point she was trying to make. I suppose she kind of did, but the whole Lily Love thing overwhelmed everything and that's all the fandom can focus on when it comes to Snape.

Whoa, there I go ranting away as always lol. I tried to keep it short and simple, but failed. I apologize. But I appreciate the discussion. Thank you for posting your thoughts as well!

I don't mind Dumbledore being a callous, manipulative bastard either; what I mind is the books trying to have it both ways. If he's that bad and has made that many mistakes, then the mistakes should matter: they threaten Harry's quest (and survival), and he has to come up with his own plan, and readers come away feeling relieved that he managed to survive despite that now-revealed-as-horrible man's machinations. If he's not that bad, then his actions need to be... not as bad as they were in canon. Either way is fine. But having him be that bad, and make that many mistakes, and his plans still work, and chatting with him and naming a kid after him is supposed to be cathartic and uplifting? No.

And really, all she had to do was include somewhere that Snape was hurt and angry at Lily, but was still horrified at putting her life in danger, and also appalled at stuff happening with Team Death Eaters (maybe at watching some of his friends lose what moral compasses they started with--that would be scary). And perhaps that over the course of years, he realized that she was a confused, scared teenager manipulated by bad "friends" just like him in school, which helped him lose his anger at her and be able to remember happier times again.

It just wouldn't have been that hard to include the Lily/Snape friendship backstory but make it, and Snape's overall motivations, realistically complex. The version we got was just lazy.

I agree with your entire comment! I think JKR struggles with making her characters complex and realistic human beings. She came close with Snape and Dumbledore, but reverted them back to their 2-dimensional characterization of Dumbledore-can-do-no-wrong and Snape-the-terrible-man-who-did-everything-for-Lily. It was lazy.

If Lily was Snape's final straw rather than his sole motivator, I might've been okay with her being his catalyst to leave the Death Eaters. Ditto if he had more complicated feelings about her rather than just straightforward True Undying Love and nothing else.

DH came across as ticking off items on a list, not a fully-formed novel. There are some dramatic scenes with (some) answers, and some bits connecting them, but it doesn't quite hang together, either with itself or the series as a whole. It's like each scene has barely enough explanation to support itself (if that), and is at least semi-isolated from the others.

It's a real shame, because it could have been so much better even holding to the same general outline. Awe and peace at seeing Snape's Patronus without knowing it's his? Harry getting incontrovertible evidence that his mentor was dodgy and maybe he should think for himself? The wizarding world finally having a smidgen of literary culture? So much potential! Even the ridiculous Seven Potters thing had some thematic meaning (instead of cutting himself into bits like Voldemort, Harry multiplies himself because he has friends); if it had made any plot sense, it could have been neat. If the pointless contradictions had been ironed out, the disconnected bits connected, and the character complexity not been squashed at the last minute, the book would have gotten a lot closer to being the book it wanted to be.

At least she didn't go so far as to put in some categorical statement that Snape didn't have other motives, or that he didn't have complicated feelings for Lily that were really hard to face after she died (plus Dumbledore manipulated them). Which doesn't help the book be better, but at least she didn't manage to write out all hope of the characters being fully human.

I wish I could like this response. That is all.

Well. Unlike Torchedsong and some others, I had no problem with Lily's being a major motivation for Severus. I was--somehow--a Sev/Lily shipper from POA. But I never thought it was his only motivation. Nor could I understand, if the Death Eaters were pureblood supremacists, why an ambitious young half-blood would join them. Why would they even have him? After reading several brilliant essays, especially by Jodel/Red Hen and Swytyyv, and thinking hard, I came up with a theory that actually made sense, at least to me. I expressed it in a fanfic called "The Blessing". If you like, I'll give you the link, but it's pretty easy to find on my livejournal. Anyway--

I noticed that Severus and Harry were often described in the same words. I thought that must mean something. Voldemort killed Harry's parents. What if Voldemort also killed Sev's parents? Why wouldn't he? Eileen was a blood traitor, after all. But he, or his minions, used imperio to force Tobias to kill his wife and baby daughter. The result? A small boy full of hate and a desire to get revenge, but no way to accomplish it. Easy prey for Voldemort. In my mind, this would have happened when Sev was 12 or so, early in his Hogwarts career. Nothing he experienced there would have changed his mind about who the 'good guys' actually were. Or do James and Sirius seem like good guys to you? Does Dumbledore?

Then, at 19 or so, he found out what really happened. He'd actually been helping his parents' killer. He defected at that point and began spying for Dumbledore--who released the prophecy deliberately in an attempt to trap Voldemort. The threat to Lily was simply the last straw. He would also have seen that, as bad as members of the order were, the Death Eaters were at least as bad.

No, it doesn't quite hold up, but it still makes sense to me.

I was surprised that we never found out anything more about Eileen and Tobias. For all the books care, they could have won the lottery, gotten couples therapy, and moved to Spain. Surely they would have had some bearing on teen Sev's decisions, alive or dead? Or at least been affected somehow if alive (and not in Spain)? And given how many of Dumbledore's Lost Boys of Hogwarts (Tom, Hagrid, Harry) are orphans, it would have fit the pattern if something had happened to the Snapes, making Sev easier for Voldemort and then Dumbledore to recruit and manipulate.

The Marauders and Dumbledore's tolerance of them were probably one of Voldemort's best recruiting tools. Just think how many students came out of Hogwarts convinced that Dumbledore's faction were a bunch of violent hypocrites only out for power. Opposing them and Crouch sounds entirely sensible. (Given James and Sirius's propensity for roaring around cities in a flying motorcycle, he could even have roped in a few with the line that they would be protecting the Statute of Secrecy. Only to horrify them along with the general public when he "revealed his true goals" of overturning it. And then the ones like Regulus who'd known that part all along were horrified by different things, and the conflicting motivations would make it a lot harder for DEs to trust each other and work together.) If only there had been an opposition which wasn't run by Voldemort!

I love the idea of the Snapes in Spain! I also love all of your ideas above. Here's another: as I said years back on my live journal, if Lily was supposed to be Sev's only motive--why wasn't she really his only motive? In addition to having his own family considerations, why wouldn't he have joined the Death Eaters not to impress her, as Rowling insists, but to protect her?

I have no problem with Severus loving Lily. I don't even have much of a problem with their relationship as depicted; it's believably youthful and shallow (on Lily's part). I do have a problem with it being his only motivation, and I have a real problem with James's abusiveness.

Sev might have thought: Lily wants a powerful, wealthy pureblood bully. I'll never be a pureblood, but I can be wealthy and powerful and I can win her from that bully. Or, he could have thought: If I join, I can keep her safe from the Death Eaters.

There are many, many possibilities that are deeper and more believable than what we were shown, IMHO.

Imagine if Eileen and Tobias and maybe Dudley were the characters to get the happiest endings. The contrarian part of me is tempted by that idea.

Whenever teen Sev and Lily annoy me too much, I remind myself of some of my high school friendships and cringe and feel more sympathetic toward them. I'm okay with the general idea of the love backstory, and with them both horribly bungling Human Relationships 101. It just... needed better execution. Complexity. Nuance. James either not leading the Abuser Red Flags Parade or his true horribleness being acknowledged somehow. Or at least JKR not chastising her fans for liking "bad boys" without including James in that group.

He could also have thought that she would realize the Statute of Secrecy was harmful and that he was noble to work toward overturning it (unlike those scofflaws with their motorbike and their high-speed chases). Without Secrecy, she would have known what her powers were earlier, Petunia wouldn't have disdained her as a freak, Severus wouldn't have been isolated and would have been respected instead, Muggles wouldn't get Obliviated every other Tuesday, and they might even have some rights if attacked. Or at least he might imagine it would have happened like that. Yeah, just about anything would be better than what we got. Or rather, didn't get--that backstory has more holes than story.

Oh, yes! Yes to all of this. I know Rowling was following Wuthering Heights point for point, so that James had to be Hindley to Severus's Heathcliff, but why was she doing that? Why couldn't she let her characters breathe and be themselves?

Oh, well.

Oh, and the thing about Hindley is that his true horribleness IS acknowledged! Love your ideas about how overturning the Statute of Secrecy might be better for Muggles, as well as Wizards.

Yeah, I think a very important part of WH is that it isn't romantic in the lower case-r sense. (Iirc, the initial reviews thought it was about human cruelty or something like that, and only after the author's gender was revealed did they suddenly interpret it as a love story.) All the characters are isolated, deprived, and disturbed in their own ways, and they all hurt everyone around them. It doesn't go well when a story tries to be "Wuthering Heights, but the romantic version."

Terri did a good analysis a while back of the Pride and Prejudice parallels, with Sev/Lily/James as Wickham/Lizzy/Darcy, and how HP doesn't fit that either once you break it down. (E.g., in Darcy actually taking Lizzy's criticisms to heart and reforming despite thinking he'd never see her again vs. James not particularly agreeing with Lily's criticisms but cleaning up his public image so she'd think he did.) There are obvious surface similarities, but the meaning and characters turn out to be completely different, yet the story is structured in a way that isn't satisfying unless you pretend it has the original's meaning.

A well-done story which references characters and scenes from both books in a coherent fashion could be interesting, but what we got reads more like bits of P&P and bits of WH grafted together at random. With magic.

Are we talking about motivation swap if Snape was written by competent writer or by Jo?
If the former, then yeah I can do some rambling :)

While Snape never was my favourite character, I always respected him as an intelligent (by Jo's standards) character. Thus I always thought that there was more to him joining DE than peer pressure and metaphorical "Come to the Dark Side, we have Cookies!". Perhaps Severus could agree with what Voldie's recruiters said. "We cannot openly follow our traditions! All because some muggleborns were offended!" "Last year ICW outlawed rain-calling ritual! The rain-calling ritual! That is preposterous!" "Muggles are poisoning rivers and cutting down forests! They are destroying our planet!"
But of course what recruiters say and what the boss orders is different. At first it's something small. Perhaps a raid on one of Dumbledor's followers. They are wizards, but surely they deserved it, right? Then something bigger. Perhaps kidnapping muggles and organising a "fox-hunt" in forest? They are defenceless and hunted like animals...
Then something much bigger. A torture of fellow follower for something small? Or execution of DE Sev knows personally? Snape realises that his boss is madman... but he isn't quite ready to abandon the ship, because there is no one else who aligns with his political position and actually does something about it
And then Voldie targets his ex-best friend for having a child who one day might defeat him. It's both personal and goes against Severus' principles- targetting a new-born?
The thing is Severus doesn't like to go against his principles. At all. And this is the breaking point where he cannot explain away Voldemort's actions.
Yes, he asks Voldemort to spare Lily, but he is a Slytherin. He is not going to believe that a madman will honour his promise. He is going to out-manoeuvre him however he can. So he goes to Dumbledore. What he doesn't expect, is for Dumbledore to be even more manipulative than the Head of Slytherin. After the first meeting where Albus is so in-the-face manipulative, Severus dons his game-face and next time they end up having heated discussion. The end result? Agree to disagree.
In the end Severus ends up staying at Hogwarts, not because of Voldemort's order or Dumbledore's protection, but to keep eye on Albus. After all Albus has a lot of power and good intentions, but piss-poor methods and ideas going opposite direction to Sev's.
That being said I don't think that Severus ever discriminated based on blood. In fact I don't think that "mudblood" insult is just about blood status. I think it's more about assimilation into society thing. Let's just look at Hermione: one day she discovers that House Elves are thing and from Harry's POV it seems it seems she doesn't ask why things are the way they are. Instead she assumes that HE are slaves and tries to bully other people to join her campaign. That kind attitude would drive any conservative insane. Heck, if you took something more innocent like fireworks during 4th July and applied Hermione's attitude anybody would be weirded out.
As for insults? Nobody complained when I posted so I don't think that you would get any :P

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What Backstory Would You Have Wanted for Snape?

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

Re: snape's motives

no subject