OotP Chapter Twenty

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

*Courage, friends.

*Awwww. Ron’s too big for the cloak now.

*Neither boy seems at all excited over squishing up next to Hermione under the cloak.

*Nick’s humming "Weasley is our King." Is that a sign of the insidiousness of Malfoy’s evil song, or a suggestion that it’s not so evil after all? Is there any significance that all of Nick’s appearances so far have contained subtle friendly connections to Slytherins? Or maybe it’s just a joke on poor Ron: *cue mwap mwap mwaaaaaa sound effect *

*ETA: Nope, no significance about being friends with Slytherins, unless JKR actually thinks that Snape's pathetic, forced service to Gryffindor or crush on Lily is in any way foreshadowed by this.

*In my continuing study of how injury is depicted, I note that Hagrid makes Hermione scream by looking like he’s been beaten up—interesting given that the beating of the previous chapter is never referenced again except in terms of how much it hurt the Gryffindors. If Malfoy had a "pound of mince instead of a face" it was either magicked away or healed naturally before we see him again two days later, or just not worthy of notice. Yet here just a few pages later the author’s using the exact same idea for sympathy for Hagrid.

*Hagrid calls the kids "nosy and interferin’" but his beard’s twitching with fondness. This goes right along with the whole theme of "rebellion," where breaking the rules=doing what we really want you to do--wink wink. Few people have experience going against the authority figures they look up to, and are quick to turn against people who do. *stops self from making fandom connections*

*ETA: And in the end that's pretty much the lesson. Harry will break the rules just the way Dumbledore wants him to and no more, and that's what makes him awesome. No original thinking here, kids!

*Meanwhile, vague references to anybody who likes Dumbledore being watched and oppressed. It’s very odd, because from my pov Dumbledore’s obviously the one in charge, and while we know Fudge is now moving against him he’s so clearly no match for Dumbledore it’s hard to feel this oppression that seriously. I find it much easier to imagine Lucius Malfoy’s movements monitored and restricted by Dumbledore and his friends when he’s selling his stuff in Borgin & Burkes. This seems more contrived to fit OotP?

*ETA: Seriously, was Dumbledore ever not completely in control of this chess board? I love that we're supposed to feel sorry for the Machiavelli guy and his pawns.

*Ron is horrified at mistakingly thinking Hagrid and Olympe had to travel to the giants like Muggles all the way. I wonder what Ron means by saying they traveled "like Muggles?" Does he imagine them going via horse and carriage? Tin lizzy? Hot air balloon?

*The Giants are practically extinct because they kill each other. Wizards could very easily suffer the same fate, but I suspect the solution to this will be to get rid of all the wizards who deserve to be killed so nobody will need to kill anyone anymore. That will be great. ETA: Called it!

*ETA: Not that I have any clue what this is supposed to mean in terms of the great "plea of tolerance" the books are about. Giants really are a race of idiots who kill each other without a single suggestion that they can be on the level of humans. Grawp's like an animal and Hagrid only fits in because he's Half-Wizard and represses his giant side. All of Ron's preconceptions about Giants are pretty much true.

*If the Giants can’t do magic, aren’t they Muggles? Big Muggles? Why are they valuable or scary to wizards?

*Giants, like Slytherins, value big and ugly.

*As usual, Dumbledore knows all. He teaches Hagrid and Olympe how to interact with giants, despite their being the ones related to giants. Like Muggleborns, they are completely assimilated into wizarding culture. If they need to know about their own people, Dumbledore will explain it to them in his vaguely condescending way, which will still be more insightful than the actual giants could ever be about themselves.

*So...err...the whole gift to the giants thing is vaguely creepy to me. The giants sound like the sort of "innocent and stupid" and also "violent if we don't watch over them" natives in stories where the White Explorer amazes them with his ball point pen and the chief wears it through his nose forever after or something.

*Hagrid doesn’t speak giant either. Bet Dumbledore does. Let’s let him orchestrate all interactions from now on. ETA: Let him? He don't need permission!

*Dumbledore’s relationship with Hagrid is beginning to sound a bit like his relationship with Harry: he adopted a half giant and made him super loyal knowing that it might one day be handy to have a sort-of giant he could send to deal with the giants without having to worry about Hagrid having any actual giant sympathies or connections. It's not like we have to worry about seeing Hagrid as a traitor from the giant's pov at all.

*As we go on, Hagrid’s visit begins to sound even less like a visit to the uncivilized natives than it does like an encounter with gorillas in the mist: Give them the gift, say you’ll come back tomorrow with another. That will show them that you keep your promises (does it not sound like Hagrid explaining how to approach one of his beasts in class?). Let them play with the fire branch all night so they’ll be eager for more of your magic (which everybody secretly is) by the time you get there. Sure enough, Karkus is the eager little toddler waiting for them the next day.

*Not that this would have to be a problem, but since the treatment of other cultures and sentient beings is so central to the story, how can you help but notice that while the bad guys are set up like old-fashioned bigots, the good guys are also a lot like old-fashioned bigot reformers, with the implied condescending attitudes that make people uncomfortable today.

*Wow. Even Karkus has heard of Dumbledore and is very keen on what he has to say. I wonder what exactly he did have to say. Is he offering something to the giants? Telling them Voldemort sucks? Or just promising him more shiny magic things and flattering him?

*Yes, Grawp can barely learn to tie his shoes but Karkus somehow has heard of the headmaster of a Wizard school in a foreign country and can't wait to hear what he has to say. That makes sense.

* Hagrid is very brave for going to speak to the new Gurg, although frankly, he's still a Wizard so I don't see why he should be.

* You can see why giants hate having magic used against, them, though. Most Muggles do. I’m beginning to think it’s just like the Giants are the killer apes and we Muggles are the rhesus monkeys.

*MacNair is apparently also an animal. The Death Eater image takes another blow. Evil must be big and stupid. Wouldn't want to get anywhere close to suggesting evil is a recognizable part of the psychology of people like us readers.

*Golgomoth holds Hagrid upside down—that seems to be the humiliation of choice in the WW. Gryffindors enjoy it just as much as Death Eaters and Giants. Maybe that should be the thing to bring all the different races together!

*So let me try to understand giant culture. On one hand it seems to clearly be a warrior culture where everyone fights and might makes right. So Golgomoth is the new Gurg because he killed the old one. But then, once there’s a Gurg we don’t like, we’re back to the usual bully throwing his weight around, and the other giants are cowering in their caves and suffering from their wounds like Neville after a run-in with Crabbe and Goyle and wishing Dumbledore were here. Remember folks, even if a culture looks like it holds different values than you do, everybody underneath really knows that your way is right. They're just being oppressed.

*Hagrid’s got the same taste in women as everyone else in the wizarding world—she’s feisty, she likes to fight, especially against Dark Wizards. ETA: The one happy thing at the end of the series--Olympe does not wind up tragically yoked to Hagrid the rest of her life.

*Ron is disappointed there are not more giants coming. Why?

*You know, I think I was too hard on Hagrid’s drinking in the past. If I was Hagrid and had to listen to myself 24/7, I’d probably drink too. I’m about ready for a shot of bourbon at this point in his story.

*Hagrid’s mother died. But what a treasure to have reconnected to that side of his heritage, I’m sure. Not like she was a great mother, being of the giant race. Really all giant children should be taken from their parents. *pleas for tolerance*

*Well, even with his mother dead, Hagrid’s at least lived up proudly to his father’s race by trying to manipulate non-magical creatures into a wizarding fight and leaving the tribe with a quarter the number of giants it had when he found it. Woo-hoo!

* Why does one have to be brave to be the DADA professor again?

*"As a gameskeeper fresh air must be hard to come by." Heh. Good one Umbridge. She may not argue her pov in any convincing way, but she’s smart enough to notice footsteps in the snow.

* Sucks to be Grubbly-Plank. "Sorry, Hagrid’s back. The guy with a terrible record and no education who’s the headmaster’s favorite. Aren’t you glad to have a headmaster in charge who only wants what’s best for the school?"

* Btw, what exactly does Grubbly-Plank do when she's not teaching? Why is she hanging around at the school? I guess she's probably Hooch's girlfriend so was on hand to take time away from her freelance career to teach.

*Hagrid knocking Hermione down and picking her up against is funny, I admit. LOL.

*I’m sure the entire school would be thrilled to know that Hermione is determined to not let Umbridge get rid of Hagrid, the one teacher everybody seems happy to see the back of. That’s the way to keep Hogwarts the way everybody likes it. If by everybody you mean the Trio. Which of course you should!





IITS
So why is it important that the Death Eaters not be touched yet? Wouldn't it make more sense to get them before they've gained all the strength they're supposedly gaining? And why would anyone go to any trouble to get the giants on their side? What exactly would the giants do? If they’d listened to Hagrid, would they all be at Hogwarts, probably ripping off Malfoy’s head?

Idiot World
Any world where the giants are considered valuable allies is a strange world. Wouldn’t Muggles in fact be much better allies? Since giants are, apparently, just bigger, stupider, and more violent Muggles? Oh wait, Muggles are smarter. Less easy to manipulate into canon fodder.

ETA: Err...giants aren't valuable allies. In fact, the entire war is fought by people I already know by this point in the story. WHY DID I HAVE TO READ THIS CHAPTER AT ALL?

Informed Attributes
Hagrid compliments the kids on how nosy they are, and how amazing for knowing more than they should because they know Hagrid was with the giants, yet Hagrid’s Secret Mission seems to be common knowledge, and even Malfoy dropped massive hints about it for them.

James Bond Exposition Rule
Not the rule itself, but an addendum that explains that the heroic side is not allowed to kill the supervillain’s minions until the supervillain has had a chance to build up his forces and inflict more damage and THEN reveal his master plan. ETA: Err...or not reveal his master plan. It's Dumbledore. Never reveal the plan until after everyone, including you, is dead.

Misdirected Answering
Well, I know everything I didn't want to know about Hagrid's mother’s, but I’m kind of confused about the political situation in the WW still. ETA: Looking back I can now recognize this as the patented Rowling "Character backstory in lieu of actual plot" fake-out.

Final score: 5.5

Comments

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Neither boy seems at all excited over squishing up next to Hermione under the cloak
Of course not - she is a sexless mother surrogate and exudes purity, not like slatternish (?) Lavender or suspicious French (gasp!) girls. And Harry is gay, of course - that's why he noticed Ron under the cloak...

I note that Hagrid makes Hermione scream by looking like he’s been beaten up
There is the additional question of why he didn't go to Madam Pomfrey with it. I suppose he didn't because he didn't want to raise any questions as to where the injuries came from. But as a teacher he couldn't hide in his hut forever, so wasn't displaying his face to the whole school even more suspicious?

*Not that I have any clue what this is supposed to mean in terms of the great "plea of tolerance"
YES. In fact, there is a parallel treatment of Muggles, elves and giants in the books: we are introduced to the idea, that they are inferior. Then, we are told, that it is awful/ evil and bigotted to think so only to finally learn, that they ARE precisely the way we were told in the beginning. Muggles are some sort of Untermenschen (to use a Nazi-term), elves ARE slaves and giants ARE big morons. The good guys are just required to close their eyes a bit and utter a few politically correct phrases, before essentially giving in to reality. It very much reminds me of a certain faction of Christians who insist at the same time that every human is evil and at the same time ask to treat them as Christ. WHY should one pretend someone evil was good?

If the Giants can’t do magic, aren’t they Muggles? Big Muggles? Why are they valuable or scary to wizards?
Iirc, they are pretty much resistent to spells. Hagrid at least, couldn't be stunned by Umbridge & Co at the end of OotP, so it might be something like having a bullet-proof ally. Although I wonder how Olympe managed to help Hagrid against the Gurg.

natives in stories where the White Explorer...
We should thank our stars we were spared the usual plot line to go with this kind of story of the Gurg's daughter falling in love with Hagrid! Just imagine the cat-fight with Madame Maxime!!!

*Hagrid doesn’t speak giant either.
What got my goat was Hagrid's latent irritation that the Gurg didn't speak English. Why should he, in the middle of Russia? Does Hagrid speak Russian? Or anything besides English? Usually it is thought to be a good trait in an envoy to actually speak the language of those where he is sent, no?

Karkus somehow has heard of the headmaster of a Wizard school in a foreign country
Sometimes, I wonder whether Rowling is mentally stuck in the times of the British Empire, where all the world was perceived as being just the outskirts of Britain. Saving the British WW means saving the whole world. The British Dark Lord works with Dark wizards from all over Europe/ Asia (don't they have any Dark Lords of their own?), Dumbledore doesn't only rule the British WW but seems to be something like the chief of the WW-UN as well; Voldemort and Dumbledore try to recruit a Russian people for the BRITISH war...

*Not like she was a great mother
Makes you wonder
- how giant babies manage to survive at all
- why a race that is portrayed so animalistic is at the same time denied to act exactly like every animal mother does: staying with their young as long as they need them.*

* Btw, what exactly does Grubbly-Plank do when she's not teaching?
Naa - things like money and holding a job only matter where the Weasleys are concerned. That's why it was utterly irrelevant that Marietta's mother was under pressure from the ministry.

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

What got my goat was Hagrid's latent irritation that the Gurg didn't speak English. Why should he, in the middle of Russia? Does Hagrid speak Russian? Or anything besides English? Usually it is thought to be a good trait in an envoy to actually speak the language of those where he is sent, no?

Did you learn nothing from GoF? Everyone speaks English, or should, and if you don't like it you can go home and take your exotically sexual ways with you, before you split up a wholesome inbreed match between the right sort (British Gryffindors)! Although if you stay, you'll learn the error of your ways and end up apologising for not being from Hogwarts or else pledging your loyalty to Harry and the Weasleys forever.

[(Anonymous)]

Iirc, they are pretty much resistent to spells. Hagrid at least, couldn't be stunned by Umbridge & Co at the end of OotP, so it might be something like having a bullet-proof ally.

But saint Harry is the only person who ever survived Avada! It doesn't matter how resistant the things are to anything else, as long as they are still vulnerable to the big one they can't be too much of a threat. BTW, the whole "why are they considered so dangerous?" incongruity also applies to the werewolves, even more so. And dragons. And basically everything that can be killed.

That also means that no matter how tough Hagrid is, he can't be too much of an asset where fighting the DEs is concerned. He would be quite easy to hit with an AK and that would be all she wrote. Not that any DEs in canon actually had the brain cells to do so, of course...

I think that the giants are located somewhere in Himalayas, so they aren't exactly Russian.
But yes - retroactively what a waste. But at the time when I first read OoTP it seemed like a sign that Voldy could finally do something right and was going to be believably dangerous in the future. Ha-ha.

The Grawp thing was abonimable from the start, however. Honestly, there are quite a few characters whose backstory was far more pertinent to the plot than Hagrid's. And they didn't get the exposition they needed, while he got a completely pointless one.
There was certain seductiveness in the possibility of Hagrid relocating to France, though. Not that I am not happy for Olympe's narrow escape or anything ;).

Yes, Hagrid's parallels with Harry. Yet another needy individuum there, shafted by DD and the author. He craved fatherly affection, but DD could love Harry, only the incredible Harry, waah!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The sad thing is Hagrid being annoyed that they don't speak English could work as a joke on Hagrid, if Hagrid wasn't so constantly held up as having such a great heart so that every bit of his bigotry is supposed to be sweet.

And Harry is gay, of course - that's why he noticed Ron under the cloak...

Certainly. He's just glad Hermione's there taking up more room from hunky Ron.

There is the additional question of why he didn't go to Madam Pomfrey with it.

Yes--because as you point out, even if he didn't want to explain it, he has to explain it more by showing up with it in class. It's not like he couldn't just pretend he got kicked by centaurs or something. It's like she forgot how easy it is to cure everything for Hagrid so he can do the ancient "raw steak over the eye" joke.

The British Dark Lord works with Dark wizards from all over Europe/ Asia (don't they have any Dark Lords of their own?),

As in all things, they can only watch the UK and try to imitate...

The funny thing with giants is if they were animals one could make a case that the Wizard way is just *wrong* for them, like raising an animal in captivity, since their species is learning the things its society needs for survival. But no, of course not. They're just bullies. Note that Hagrid takes this same approach to raising animals when he treats them like people, and naturally they respond positively by becoming people as much as they can. As opposed to eating him.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

First off--I must commend your courage in reading this chapter again. I reread OotP several times (initially, I disliked it, but I grew to like it over time), but I could never bring myself to include this chapter in the reread. It was just too boring and irrelevant. The only purpose it serves at all, as far as I could see even before DH was to let us know that the giants weren't going to make any difference to the final outcome.

I can only conclude, now that the series is over, that this whole storyline came about in order to have that moment at in OotP when Grawp rescues Harry and Hermione from the centaurs. Wow. Could have been done so much more economically. Imagine....

The centaurs are closing in on Hermione and Harry. One of them grabs Harry by the hair when suddenly large bats start flying out of his nose! With a roar of discomfort, he gallops off, followed by the others. Ginny steps out of the shadows, twirling her wand. (Of course, I would prefer Ron coming to the rescue, but that would force him out of his idiot friend niche).

And, instead of the whole Hagrid sub-plot, we just have him there are Hogwarts at the beginning of the year, looking despondent and saying, "Welp, that trip to the giants di'n't work..."

*Meanwhile, vague references to anybody who likes Dumbledore being watched and oppressed. It’s very odd, because from my pov Dumbledore’s obviously the one in charge, and while we know Fudge is now moving against him he’s so clearly no match for Dumbledore it’s hard to feel this oppression that seriously.

I couldn't agree more. What does Fudge's big plan against Dumbledore consist of, anyway? A few references in the daily paper so sly that Harry never even notices them. The appointment of Umbridge is the most effective thing he does, but only because she's insane--which Fudge probably didn't realize.

Why doesn't he mobilize the school governors? Lucius Malfoy was able to do that with just a bit of extortion. The Minister of Magic ought to be able to exert better pressure than that. Why not make hay from the Dumbledore's proto-Nazi past? Or the fact that he hired a werewolf, a half-giant, and allowed a basilisk to roam through the school for the better part of a year?

And yes on that whole Great White Hunter expedition of Hagrid's. It seemed to me like an homage to Edgar Rice Burroughs or something like that. It's so weirdly regressive. The giants aren't even noble savages. They are just savage--until the new gurg comes along and then they're oppressed victims. And irrelevant! Completely, stupidly, irrelevant!

* Sucks to be Grubbly-Plank. "Sorry, Hagrid’s back. The guy with a terrible record and no education who’s the headmaster’s favorite. Aren’t you glad to have a headmaster in charge who only wants what’s best for the school?"

Grubbly-Plank is by far my favorite teacher. It's so sad that she wasn't hired in the first place. I imagine her raising unicorns or something on a small farm, and using the occasional teaching gig to supplement her income. But I like the idea of her being Hooch's girlfriend.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

First off--I must commend your courage in reading this chapter again.

Oh, absolutely seconded! I generally skipped this chapter, too. To have to read it and take notes? Hat off and over heart, head respectfully bowed. ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

First off--I must commend your courage in reading this chapter again.

This acheivement should almost go on my tombstone!

I can only conclude, now that the series is over, that this whole storyline came about in order to have that moment at in OotP when Grawp rescues Harry and Hermione from the centaurs.

It totally, totally is and it's ridiculous. It could have been anything of Hagrid's that did it, even. He could have just adopted a Yeti or something. Instead we have to have this weird idea of Hagrid having an actual brother who's almost like someone with mental problems that he trains like an animal--and of course this whole chapter of world-building that the story can't really cover.

The appointment of Umbridge is the most effective thing he does, but only because she's insane--which Fudge probably didn't realize.

Yes--it only means anything because everyones overly-sensitive about Dumbledore. The whole world is against Harry, really. That's what it comes down to in the end.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

*ETA: And in the end that's pretty much the lesson. Harry will break the rules just the way Dumbledore wants him to and no more, and that's what makes him awesome. No original thinking here, kids!

I guess the message is that you should always buck the rules, but you need to consult a reliable authority figure to make sure you buck the rules in the right way.

ETA: The one happy thing at the end of the series--Olympe does not wind up tragically yoked to Hagrid the rest of her life.

One of the few things I'm willing to get Rowling credit for, that. Good for you, Olympe, narrow escape there!

*Hagrid’s mother died. But what a treasure to have reconnected to that side of his heritage, I’m sure. Not like she was a great mother, being of the giant race. Really all giant children should be taken from their parents. *pleas for tolerance*

How have giants survived as a species if they're so uninterested in their own children? Are giant children so fierce that they can get by on their own almost from birth?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

How have giants survived as a species if they're so uninterested in their own children? Are giant children so fierce that they can get by on their own almost from birth?

Like I said, it almost seems like if this is the way they're raised than the Wizard way would only be bad for them, like raising a wild animal in captivity. More civilized in that they eat dinner that's given to them on a plate, but incapable of hunting themselves some dinner or something. But of course if the children are in any way human like than they *can't* just be abandoned at birth. And they should be human like because humans are born so helpless because we couldn't get through the birth canal with our big heads otherwise and...I'm thinking too much about this, aren't I?

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

*Hagrid’s mother died. But what a treasure to have reconnected to that side of his heritage, I’m sure. Not like she was a great mother, being of the giant race. Really all giant children should be taken from their parents. *pleas for tolerance*

Yes. They should all be taken away from their mothers and tied to trees.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

WHY DID I HAVE TO READ THIS CHAPTER AT ALL?

Because Rowling wished it so. ;) I can imagine Hogwarts students making a similar cry regarding Hagrid's class.

Seriously though, biggest waste of a chapter, a character, a world-building, and a plot. It's a bit staggering, honestly. And it makes me wonder how editors handle series like this in general. Because if this were a single book, I can see an editor pointing out the fact that this chapter goes nowhere. But if JKR said, oh it all becomes clear in book 7, I mean, I guess they'd have to take her at her word? Or do editors generally have an idea of the plot themselves? I'm basically wondering if this is a "book series" issue or a "JKR left to run amok because she's pulling in such good money" issue.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Remember JKR claimed that there was just absolutely nothing she could have cut out of OotP. Looking back I'm thinking this chapter practically came with perforations on the page for easy cutting-out.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I recall some comment by JKR about how her editors wanted her to cut stuff out of OotP. I think it was in the Emerson/Melissa interview, and specifically about them wanting her to cut down the cleaning stuff (in the Black House), and how she had to insist that it was all necessary.

As far as the cleaning goes, that stuff was kind of fun and we did get the locket clue buried in the description of the cleaning, which turned out to be important later on. (As everyone knew as of a day or two after HBP was released). But this chapter goes nowhere. All it does is negate the idea that diplomacy had any purpose in the upcoming conflict.

Negating the whole message of GoF.

It's so weird. It's almost as though JKR were using OotP to completely reverse everything that was set up in GoF. Sure, Lucius Malfoy is outed as a DE in GoF, but we'll just pretend that nobody believes Harry about that. We'll forget that extending the hand of friendship to foreign countries or other species has any importance whatsoever. The only foreign student who actively participated in the resistence to Voldemort was Fleur--who married into the opposition.

But, why should that be surprising? HBP completely reversed the angst-over-Sirius plotline, the Occlumency plotline, and the D.A. plotline. DH completely ignored the Harry/Snape plotline until two minutes before Snape died--and barely touched on it afterwards.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ron has to be both the guy who's prejudiced against giants and the guy who mistakenly thinks it would be a good idea if they showed up. You'd think it would make more sense if Hermione wanted them, perhaps because she was another one of the "misguided Muggle" moments where she was giving the giants more credit than they deserved.

I've totally wanted to know what an anthropologist would say about this chapter!

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Anyone else notice that Hagrid is suddenly a gamekeeper? Wasn't he the *grounds*keeper back in PS/SS?

[artystone.livejournal.com]

Once again proving the JKR is more believably witty and sarcastic when writing for her designated mean, awful people. Maybe if she admitted how mean-spirited and awful her designated heroes can be (and often are), she could have avoided making them masters of all things unfunny.

I believe this says a great deal about JKR herself. For all her pleas for tolerance, and sermons about being nice to fat people, and standing up for the lowly and all--she's really nothing more than the schoolyard bully who indignantly believes she is the one being bullied. In other words, a true Gryffindor.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

All the best bullies mistakenly think they're bullied themselves.

Oh, except Malfoy who is described as being bullied in NBP, but that's totally different because he's wrong.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

*sings* Lalalalala, lalalala, chapter? What chapter? I have never re-read this and do not intend to. Like everyone else, I applaud your fortitude.

The giants and the elves are very bizarre. You're right, they're exactly like the imperialists' view of savages--but that view of them is never corrected. It would be one thing if they were like Terry Pratchett's dwarves and trolls--different species, but mentally very similar to humans and therefore undeserving of their stereotypes. But these are deserving of their stereotypes! In which case, why not just treat them like dumb brutish animals? (Which is what the "good guys" in fact do, but without ever admitting it and all the while pretending to be respectful).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know! The coming together of unenlightened stereotypes, outdated condescnding attitudes, p.c. cliches, extra-textual sermons and pleas for tolerance...Wow.

[lachlanm.livejournal.com]

sistermagpie: *If the Giants can’t do magic, aren’t they Muggles? Big Muggles? Why are they valuable or scary to wizards?

Because giants are largely immune to magic, including the killing curse. If you aren't a threat to them, they must be a threat to you—especially if they won't acknowledge your superiority.



sistermagpie: *As we go on, Hagrid’s visit begins to sound even less like a visit to the uncivilized natives than it does like an encounter with gorillas in the mist: Give them the gift, say you’ll come back tomorrow with another. That will show them that you keep your promises (does it not sound like Hagrid explaining how to approach one of his beasts in class?).

Actually I think Hagrid's a lot more respectful toward the animals. Compare his interaction with the hippogriffs to his interaction with the giants.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

If giants are immune to the killing curse, does that make them the Chosen People?

And yes, he is more respectful towards animals. Partially because the animals are somehow given more intelligence and ability to keep him in line.

[r-ganymede.livejournal.com]

*Yes, Grawp can barely learn to tie his shoes but Karkus somehow has heard of the headmaster of a Wizard school in a foreign country and can't wait to hear what he has to say. That makes sense.

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me think it's not all giants that are stupid, just Hagrid's family. Possibly even just Hagrid and his brother (which would explain why he didn't get along with the other giants). This would make it less disturbing that Hagrid's father had sex with one. If giants really are all like that, though - which the book would have us believe - he essentially had sex with an animal. I like my interpretation better. As for the behavior in the story, well, Hagrid's not exactly the most reliable source of information. They could have totally been screwing with him and he'd have had no idea.

* Btw, what exactly does Grubbly-Plank do when she's not teaching? Why is she hanging around at the school? I guess she's probably Hooch's girlfriend so was on hand to take time away from her freelance career to teach.

For my sanity, I have to assume that she has some other, relatively flexible career and so only wants to fill in during emergencies, because the thought of her applying for the job and being turned down in favor of Hagrid pisses me off too much to contemplate.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh dear god. Being turned down for Hagrid. As Snape was dying he was probably thinking that that was the one humiliation he managed to avoid in life, but only because Hagrid couldn't do Potions and Snape had no interest in Magical Creatures.

Iirc, in later chapters I have my own alternate story for Grawp where he's actually a genius and Hagrid is the mentally challenged one of the family. Though stupid does seem to run in Hagrid's family.

[galaxianomiko.livejournal.com]

Good on you for being able to stomach this chapter again! Me, not so much. The only way I was able to stand this the first time was picturing the giants as the Gorgs from Fraggle Rock.

the patented Rowling "Character backstory in lieu of actual plot" fake-out.

Sometimes I think this whole series book almost fits under that description.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think this whole series book almost fits under that description.

It does seem that way, doesn't it?

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

My comment on the Giant issue and it's sociopolitical ramifications:

(And for a bonus - why can't these crazy kids just work things out? There's a thin line between love and hate!
)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL!

[(Anonymous)]

JKR's "pleas for tolerance" really are insanely nineteenth century aren't they. About the best presented are the Centaurs, who are basically noble savages, then there's the Giants, who are poor benighted barbarians who don't know any better. And of course there's the House Elves, the happy, happy slave race, who should be treated with respect, and by respect we mean "set them menial tasks and make them fight and die for you, but do it politely and give them shiny trinkets."

It really is like something out of colonial Africa. "Well some people are simply beastly to the darkies, take shocking advantage of their limited intellects. Tarquin and I take awfully good care of Mufasa here. We've taught him to was properly and speak properly and given him all manner of advantages."

-- Dan Hemmens

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And we never would have thought to see it in books in the 21st century. But nostalgia is one of the appeals of the book. Weird as that is.

[burninglikeice.livejournal.com]

My question about wizards is, do they not have the same sort of DNA as humans? They must not, seeing as there is inter-specie breeding (i.e. the brain breaking case with Hagrid. I so totally don't want to think about a Giant and a human getting it on. The impossible physicality of it is just mind boggling.). Humans (and most other animals) cannot breed outside of their species. That's why it's so completely illogical that Superman impregnates Lois Lane in that disappointing Superman Returns movie, but that's another rant. I'm so throughly pissed at science for letting me down in this instance; in any other case, we wouldn't have been forced to deal with Hagrid's existence.

[lachlanm.livejournal.com]

burninglikeice: I so totally don't want to think about a Giant and a human getting it on. The impossible physicality of it is just mind boggling.

Everyone says that, but I don't necessarily agree. Humans have absurdly large genitalia compared to other species---male gorillas, for instance, have 2cm organs---so physically it could conceivably work, assuming giants aren't similarly (dis)proportioned.

As far as the DNA issue is concerned, I assume giants are probably some sort of offshoot of the hominid family tree, close enough for mutual interbreeding. They wouldn't even have to be the same species---lions and tigers can breed, after all, as can zebras and donkeys. The offspring aren't generally themselves fertile, but then we have no reports of Hagrid or Mme Maxime having children.