GOF Chapter 16: The Goblet of Fire

[oryx_leucoryx]

Ron is such a fan of Viktor's he never realized Viktor was still a student. (Maybe Viktor is spreading his studies over a longer schedule to allow for more time for practices and games?) After all these years I realized his surname is taken from a historical figure . Viktor has fans among girls and boys alike. Except for Hermione, she is above all this.

Ron is willing to offer Viktor his bed. Ron/Viktor OTP!

The Durmstrang students are impressed with the charmed ceiling and the gold dinner-ware. Well, later we will find fires are used there only for magical purposes, so I imagine Durmstrang avoids anything that serves only for decoration or comfort.

Beauxbatons students show respect for their headmistress. Hogwarts students behave like boors. What else is new?

Hermione is so inviting to outsiders: "No one's making you stay!" But the supposedly close-minded Slytherins are among those who are friendly to the guests. (Ron reads friendliness as sucking up, as if he wouldn't do the same if only given an opportunity.)

Ron doesn't know foreign foods with funny names and won't trust them enough to even try. Hermione is more worldly because her parents took her to France the summer between 2nd and 3rd year. The trip from which she sent Harry a very excited letter. Well, in 3 years her parents will be going on a very different trip. Without her.

The deep bloodred robes of the Durmstrang students make the Great Hall seem crowded? I guess evil people have more presence?

Ron is struck by Fleur's Veela-charms. Harry doesn't even notice them. He does notice Cho, a bit. "They make them okay at Hogwarts," - does Harry have some insider's information about Cho having been conceived while her parents were at school?

Oooh! Bagman and Crouch are here! The red herrings and plot devices are gathering!

Ron is failing to seduce Fleur with unfamiliar (to him) desserts.

Crouch looks strange in robes? The Muggle outfit suited him better? Is this a hint that he isn't being completely himself?

Filch has to carry the casket containing the Goblet of Fire over. Dumbles can't just summon it magically.

The tasks will challenge magical prowess, daring, powers of deduction and ability to cope with danger. But Hogwarts' champion will be from the House that doesn't specialize in any one of them, because collaborative effort in preparation for the tasks does more than make up for an unbalanced skill set. Go Hufflepuffs!

Nobody under 17 will be able to cross the line, but if Filius follows the same schedule each year then by now even a first year can levitate a note with his name across it. (And of course, anyone can just ask an older person to just enter one's name.) But regardless, Albus' message here is that once a wizard is 17, s/he can freely make the choice to risk death for the chance of winning glory and a thousand Galleons (or walk to supposedly certain death in order to weaken an enemy).

Being selected by a flaming goblet constitutes a binding magical contract. The other form of magical contract involving fire that we know is the Unbreakable Vow. Does a champion die if s/he breaks the contract? But what are the terms? Clearly attempting a task and failing is OK. How much of an attempt there has to be for a champion to be safe?

Harry is more concerned that Dumbles might be angry with him for entering while underage than that the tasks may actually endanger him. Twinkly's indoctrination plan is working.

Igor is favoring Viktor over Poliakoff in public. Hogwarts headmaster would never do anything like that, would he?

Oh! Igor is giving Harry the evil eye! (BTW that girl Poliakoff is nudging to point out Harry's scar - she must have been a Durmstrang student, right? So in canon the Durmstrang delegation is co-ed too.) Igor isn't happy to meet 'Moody' - the real one was the Auror that arrested him. (And Barty certainly isn't happy with a DE who not only made a deal to get out of prison but handed in a fellow DE in his place.) This is an example of what I like about GOF - there are so many red herrings, all introduced in the first third of the book, with different plausible motives.

Well, we see the age line in action with the twins. Why didn't they think to levitate their notes? (Maybe they did, later, if they found a moment when the coast was clear. But they were outclassed by Cedric in any case.) Ms Fawcett is in Ravenclaw and underage. The Fawcetts are another family that lives near the Burrow but avoids the Weasleys.

The Triwizard Tournament is supposed to be a way to promote international cooperation but for the time being it is yet another thing to exacerbate House rivalry at Hogwarts as Gryffindors resent the idea that Hogwarts might be represented by someone from a different House.

What happens to the ones who aren't chosen? Well, they did stay all year. Did they join the Hogwarts NEWT students in their classes as exchange students? Or did they receive tutoring from their school-heads all year? At least they all know passable English, so both options are possible. If the case were that a Hogwarts delegation was visiting any of the other schools they wouldn't have been able to participate in that school's academic program, they'd have been stuck with Albus as their only teacher.

Hagrid's attempt at prettying himself up goes terribly, of course. The skrewts have started killing each other, but there are still 20 of them left.

"Never thought I'd live ter see the Triwizard Tournament played again!" Has he ever seen it played before then? Hey, the only time Hogwarts has a dance it is as part of the Triwizard Tournamnet tradition. And Molly says she and Arthur danced to Celestina Warbeck's songs when they were 18. That's it, that's when the previous Tournament was held. Maybe the Lucius-Arthur rivalry is from something related to campaigning for or against the champions in those days.

What was that taloned creature in the stew? A former pet?

Hagrid thinks it isn't natural for an elf to be free, but he doesn't realize how unnatural it is to make a pet of an Acromantula, or a dragon. Should I trust his word on elves?

So Hagrid's self-improvement attempts were all intended for dear Olympe! I wish she didn't fall for it. Whatever does she see in Hagrid besides someone who can care for her horses? So what if they are the same size - their parents were more mismatched than either Hagrid or Olympe would be with anyone, human or giant.

So - the champion selection ceremony: Olympe and Igor are tense, they care who represents their school. Albus' emotion isn't described. I'm guessing he is just enjoying everyone's attention and can't care less who is selected to represent Hogwarts. Bagman is beaming - a competition of any kind is an opportunity for more bets. Crouch is uninterested, almost bored. Because he doesn't care about fun things like games? Or because his Imperius instructions include 'do not interfere in any way in the proceedings' - ie he is being repressed beyond normal?

In a complete surprise move, the goblet selects those visiting students who were brought to our attention the most visibly during the last chapter and a half.

The applause for Cedric lasts longer than for Viktor, but it seems only the Hufflepuffs were applauding Cedric, whereas Viktor received applause from all around the Hall.

We don't know if anyone applauded Fleur, but her schoolmates are crying in disappointment. I think the Durmstrang students didn't expect anyone but Viktor to be chosen, but perhaps in Beauxbatons Fleur had even-matched competition.

Well, the goblet has another surprise. It even cuts Albus off, so we don't know what he was going to say about what cheering one's champion on was going to achieve.

Albus pauses for a while before reading the name on the parchment. This really came as a surprise to him - we see him scrambling mentally. Also, note he did not read the name of the school Harry would be 'representing'. Everyone (except Albus and the perpetrator) will assume Harry entered as a potential Hogwarts champion, but as we will learn later, Barty entered him under the name of some other school.

Comments

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

But the supposedly close-minded Slytherins are among those who are friendly to the guests. (Ron reads friendliness as sucking up, as if he wouldn't do the same if only given an opportunity.)

How many canonical examples of Gryffindor projection do we see in these books? (This also raises questions as to what exactly the Hat mean by the words "Or perhaps in Slytherin you'll make your real friends").

The deep bloodred robes of the Durmstrang students make the Great Hall seem crowded? I guess evil people have more presence?

But of course! When have pantomime villains never dramatically gestured and overacted?

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

You know, everyone always forgets that part of the song. 'Perhaps in Slytherin, you'll make your real friends.' FRIENDS. Slytherin is the ONLY house which is associated with friendship in the Sorting song! But everyone focuses on cunning=evil and that's the end of it. I get really pissed off at the idea Slytherins can't have real friends- Harry's described as having an epic friendship, same with any other Gryff, but Slytherins only have lackeys or minions, or at the best, allies.

On a side note, I'm such a masochist, I read comments from the hp_cr now and then and couldn't resist having a look at the fandom rant (http://hp-commonroom.livejournal.com/113950.html) discussion topic. Surprise surprise, 'JKR didn't set out to vilify Slytherin'- even though 99% of the Slytherins she wrote were baddies or did bad things or were ugly or didn't end up with their boyfriend because they didn't deserve marriage- and LILY WAS TOO AWESOME FOR SNAPE, HE WAS A RACIST PRICK WHO DIDN'T DESERVE HER. I get so annoyed at how the one time he uses the term against her- and I'm not denying it's wrong, although I'd argue the context, but hey- is a justification in retrospect for the crappy way she treated him. Mark of the wonderful Gryffindor capacity for friendship when one sees their friend hanging upside down in the air, publicly exposed and choking on soap, and the natural reaction is to find it humorous.

(then again, I find Gryff friendships twisted in general- Harry throwing shears at Ron's head, Sirius setting up Lupin to kill Snape...)

Er, sorry for the rant. I just get so fed up with fandom sometimes.

Fandom versus ex Fandom

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

The literary disaster of Deathly Hallows divided the existing fanbase into those who remained fans despite everything, so no longer looked at it objectively and into an ex-fan base. It is surprising how much the fan base are ready to ignore. The ex-fan base are detractors of the series who have the advantage of knowing it all well, having been fans once.

Before Half Blood Prince came out I had actually been certain that JKR knew what she was doing. And even after Half Blood Prince I was not prepared for anything as abysmal as Deathly Hallows. But there we have it. The entire series is now a dud. Deathly Hallows transmuted all the gold that seemed to gleam throuhout the first six books into dross retrospectively, throughout. All the way back to the beginning.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Ron doesn't know foreign foods with funny names and won't trust them enough to even try.

The whole view of how foreigners have funny names, foods and habits, and are either effete snobs or crude and uncultured, is just so Victorian-boarding-school story! I mean, this is the 90s, Hogwarts has black, Indian and Chinese students, and probably other foreign students, so why are they so insular?

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

We don't know if anyone applauded Fleur, but her schoolmates are crying in disappointment.

They should be crying! Her performance in the tournament was a total embarrassment. I was embarrassed myself that the only female competitor was so incompetent.

Re: Fandom versus ex Fandom

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

Yes! DH shattered everything for me. I wish she'd left the series unfinished. (Yes, I know that's impossible, but ...) :(

The point of Blast Ended Skrewts - what they do

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

>> The skrewts have started killing each other, but there are still 20 of them left. <<

This answers Malfoy's question about what useful thing Blast Ended Skrewts do. They kill Blaste Ended Skrewts! That's a good thing. I get the impression that Blast Ended Skrewts are difficult to kill when they are several months old as is shown by the one in the maze.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/But the supposedly close-minded Slytherins are among those who are friendly to the guests./

And the Beauxbatons students seem to fit in well with Ravenclaws as well.

We never did learn what Draco and the other Slytherins talked about with Viktor Krum. Draco's described as looking "gleeful" when Krum sits near him - but who wouldn't be? Viktor is a major celebrity and a great Quidditch player. Who's to say that Draco's not as big of a fan of Viktor as Ron is?

/The Triwizard Tournament is supposed to be a way to promote international cooperation but for the time being it is yet another thing to exacerbate House rivalry at Hogwarts as Gryffindors resent the idea that Hogwarts might be represented by someone from a different House./

And that's just ridiculous and silly. The Hogwarts champion is supposed to represent all of Hogwarts, not just the student's house. Imagine if Boston Red Sox fans got upset that a member of the New York Yankees was picked as the American representative for an international baseball competition, or vice-versa. Wouldn't that be considered petty and silly?

/Hagrid thinks it isn't natural for an elf to be free, but he doesn't realize how unnatural it is to make a pet of an Acromantula, or a dragon. Should I trust his word on elves?/

Good point. Too bad that Hermione didn't think of it to use as a comeback.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Surprise surprise, 'JKR didn't set out to vilify Slytherin'- even though 99% of the Slytherins she wrote were baddies or did bad things or were ugly/

And even though from the first book, we were set up to think badly of Slytherin House by Hagrid, who spouted the infamous line, "There ain't a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin," by Harry's first impression of Slytherins as ugly and unpleasant, and by Draco Malfoy's automatic acceptance into that House.

/LILY WAS TOO AWESOME FOR SNAPE, HE WAS A RACIST PRICK WHO DIDN'T DESERVE HER./

*sighs* You know what, fine. Snape didn't deserve Lily...and she didn't deserve him. Based on how she treated him when they were supposed to be friends, I can only assume that the fact that they never got together wasn't a shame, it was a dodged bullet for Snape. The truly sad part is that he never realized how lucky he was.

What I really can't understand are fans who try to justify Lily's reaction to Snape's humiliation prior to him calling her a Mudblood. I mean, even after he calls her a Mudblood, how can they still think that her behavior is okay? Do they think that when your supposed best friend calls you a nasty name, you're automatically within your rights to just flounce off and leave them there in that vulnerable and humiliating position? You can't even get them down first and *then* flounce off? Lily just hurried off and left him hanging there. We don't ever find out if she called a teacher to take care of the problem.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

Hasn't JK ever known a young male sport fanatic like Ron is suppose to be?

Young boys how are big sports fan will tell you everything you never wanted to known about their favorite players, the equipment and the game if given half a chance.

Ron not knowing that Krum is a student a Durmstrang is stupid. It would make sense that Harry didn't know, but Ron should be going on about how he knows all about Krum at Durmstrang. What year he is, what are his favorite subjects, etc.

It is even worse that she has Hermione explaining about the snitches flesh memory. Ron should be the expect in all the facts about the Quidich equipment.

Why are they so insular?

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Are "they" insular?

Or is Ron (and the other Weasleys)?

I mean, how many of the black/Indian/Chinese/foreign-acculturated students is Ron friends with?

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

... it was a dodged bullet for Snape.

How true. I've known women (and men) who forgave a loved one for much worse things than calling them a nasty name (things like cheating, alcoholism, drug abuse, and even violence), if they believed that their loved one was truly sorry and loved them back. Snape did everything he could to show his remorse, but it made no difference, so I'm quite sure that Lily didn't love him.

Re: Why are they so insular?

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

But if it's just Ron that hates foreigners, why does no-one else seem to associate? Is it bad writing? ;)

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

And that's just ridiculous and silly. The Hogwarts champion is supposed to represent all of Hogwarts, not just the student's house.

And if a Slytherin had won? The heroes would have attacked the Champion at every opportunity.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

It's not as if Ron has been to a professional Quidditch match. Actually, he never expresses any desire to go to a game in summer or in term. It's almost as if the author never bothered to think that wizards and witches never tried to have a conflict.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

AT least JKR allowed a woman to compete -you know what we're like.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I think many fans use something like the following reasoning regarding Severus and Lily: All death eaters are evil; therefore, Snape was evil. Since Snape was evil, Lily was right to end her friendship with him. The problem is that there really isn't all that much in the text to contradict that interpretation, though many of us here believe that the situation must have been more complicated.

Rowling never explored Snape's motivations for joining the death eaters. She never told us what drew the death eaters to Voldemort. She told us very little about what the goals of the death eaters were during the first war.

She never told us why Snape was interested in the dark arts. She never told us what the difference even is between the dark arts and other magic.

A lot of us believe that, though he was flawed and damaged, Snape was ultimately a good person. But there really isn't much of anything in the story to explain why a good person would ever consider joining the death eaters.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

In this book the Wesley family goes to the World Cup. A professional Quidditch match.

Ron's room is covered with Quidditch posters.

When they are on the train in the first book Ron "its the greatest game in the world - and he was off explaining all about the four balls and the positions of the seven players, DESCRIBING FAMOUS GAMES HE'D BEEN TO WITH HIS BROTHERS." Ron only stops in the middle of explaining the finer points because Draco shows up.

That is what Ron should be doing about Krum - telling Harry everything about Krum and his games until someone interrupts him.

Re: Fandom versus ex Fandom

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

I agree with every word of this. I had enjoyed all the of the previous books, and loved OOTP - but then came HBP, and, worse yet, DH. That last book wrecked the entire series for me. What gets me is that there are intelligent adults - professionals in the publishing field, even - who STILL claim that book is well-written. That absolutely baffles me.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

On a side note, I'm such a masochist, I read comments from the hp_cr now and then and couldn't resist having a look at the fandom rant discussion topic.

YES! THANK YOU! Thank you so much for that reference! I'm writing an essay for this site called, "Because Jo Said So" that examines the psychological weirdness of the books, and what that, along with her interviews, says about Rowling, and the interpretational differences in the fandom, all from a standpoint of people's spiritual development. I realized a long time ago that many of these rabid pro-Jo fans reminded me of Bible thumpers, with their bumper stickers that say. "The Bible says it./God said it. I believe it. That settles it." And right there in that discussion, a fan actually said, "JKR said it. I believe it. That settles it." YAHOO! That proves I was right all along! I am so gonna PWN those bastards!

OK, I realize that's a very spiritually undeveloped attitude to take, but hey. We can't be evolved all the time. : D

Re: Fandom versus ex Fandom

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Well, she could have been like George R. R. Martin. His Game of Thrones series is supposed to be seven books long, and his fans have been waiting five years for the fifth book. He said in an interview about the new TV series that they stand outside his home, holding pitchforks and torches, demanding he get it written. Rowling could certainly have taken another year each to get HBP and DH out. I'm sure most people--OK, those with taste and discernment, which apparently does not include much of the fandom--would have preferred waiting to being stuck with the boring, contradictory, crazy crap we ended up with.

Which is not to say I wouldn't prefer it if you updated your adorable story a little more frequently. :-)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Actually, judging by Ron's description I think she did awesomely in the first task, definitely better than Viktor. Of course the judges all had motivations to bias the points, and Igor was the worst of all, so that explains why Viktor got such an advantage. And I believe 3 judges were biased towards Harry, each adding a bit. The third task was rigged by Barty (and of course Fleur started at a disadvantage). It's only the second task she failed at.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Lily was making a big show of being a hero herself, plus she was fighting off laughing at Severus in that scene. Why is it she gets a pass for giggling about his skinny legs?

Why did she even go into the thing begging James to let Severus down, she never uses her wand. She was making an even bigger show to everyone who was watching. Thus further humiliating Severus. He's hanging their upside down and she's spouting off at James like a girlfriend/boyfriend argument.

It's kind of disturbing how she acts, especially once we find out they were friends. Before we just assumed she was supposed to be this really nice girl. So her coming in that way for me was acceptable. But now that I know she is supposed to be Severus best friend, her actions just come across as less than stellar.

I don't give Severus a pass for saying that filty mudblood comment to his best friend, but she wasn't exactly on the 100% right track either.

Seriously if she realy wanted to help she should have either run off and got an adult or she should have hexed James Potter right away without giving him a 'talking to'. Why did James deserve a talking to at that point, he attacked Severus for no reason. Wasn't Lily justified in zapping him?

She faught off a laugh, that would not be my first instinct if I saw my 'best friend' being hung upside down and nearly choked by soap bubbles.

How is Lily really noble? That she stepped in to 'help'. This was her supposed best friend, not just some random student she wanted to save.

Being that she walked off and left him to James and Sirius so they could further abuse him is annoying. We're never told what happened other than Severus later that night goes to try and get Lily to forgive him for saying the insult. We never know if a teacher comes or if James and Sirius do take of Severus underwear in front all those onlookers. Did Severus really deserve that kind of humiliation?

What about Snape? It's almost glossed over, well he deserved to be treated that way because he's a Slytherin and a git so he doesn't deserve an 'sorry' from James, Sirius or anyone.

It just really feels uncomfortable to me what JKR was showing, it's glossed over and it seems to almost be accepted by the zombie fans that Snape deserved the treatement from James and company because JKR has told us James was a good guy who hated the dark arts and Severus was a dark arts lover.

My idea of a good guy isn't a guy who goes around abusing people. There is no excuse for that kind of behavor if you ask me. And I would have liked to see Severus get a sorry from the likes of James and Sirius and Lupin and Peter; but none of that seems to have occured.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

She basicly told him to go to the devil(Voldemort) go join your precious Death Eaters, see if I care.

If you see your friend spiraling on a dangerous path and they yell at you or call you a bad word do you just give up on them?

Plus their is that little comment Lily says; my friends don't know why I even talk to you.

It always kind of pisses me off because at that point we're lead to believe that Severus is her 'best friend' but she throws out that her friends don't like him.

It sort of like she can't speak for herself so she has to use 'her friends' as a way to justify what she is doing. It's a way to take the blame off oneself and put it on someone else sholders.

I want to know who the hell these other friends were and why it would be their business. It's like other kids were sowing the seeds of doubt in Lily and she decided to take their word for it. And the argument we see before was Lily complaining about what some other Slytherin boy did, not what Severus himself did. So she's both blaming him for someone elses actions and then using her own friends to get rid of him.

WTH Lily, is that brave?

So instead of trying to include him it was a way for her to push him away and gain acceptance in whatever little group she was running with.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

I mean, okay, Severus joins a group that wants to git rid of muggleborns. The woman he loves with obsession is a muggleborn.

Does this really make sense to anyone? We know Severus might have been a little pissed at Lily for going over to James but I never got any sense of the story that he wanted Lily dead. So on some level it just doesn't jive that he would have known Voldemort ment for mudbloods to be gotten rid of. Lily would have never been accepted, how does Severus expect he would have got a pass on having Lily as a wife or girlfriend?

In fact he doesn't believe he'd get a pass. Clearly he goes to Dumbledore when he believes Lily is on the target list.

But still, it doesn't quite make sense because Lily was with the order, she was a fighter for that side. Surely she would have came up against some DE before she had James went into hiding. In fact she and James defied Voldemort 3 times.

How does that work really for Severus? one of my fellow DE might end up killing Lily. They're defying Voldie.

It almost feels like he really didn't know the full extent of hte group he was joining. But once you get the mark and become a DE it's not easy to get out, well you don't get out you get dead.

So couldn't it be that Severus got pulled into this group by his friend and people like Lucius - and then much like Regulus Black, he was in over his head. Couldn't it be that Severus had already seen the writing on the wall and when the prophecy crap happened it just sent him over the edge.

I mean, we get that Severus asked Voldemort to spare Lily - if he was really 100% into what Voldemort was doing, wouldn't he have believed that Voldemort would spare Lily for him? Yet, we see that Severus didn't believe Voldemort and Sev ran right to Dumbledore. To me this suggests Severus did not trust Voldemort at all.