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[elanor-x.livejournal.com]

I have been watching this community for a long time, but only recently have started commenting and got my own lj. Inspired by sistermagpie, decided to try to post here too.

Chapter 23: Horcruxes.

* Harry proves that FF is really wearing off by nearly telling the Fat Lady (and everybody else who might be lurking in the vicinity) about the super secret memory, of which D let him tell only to R&H. This is a big change from previous chapter's cunning manipulation, but perfectly IC for angry Harry. Nice touch, JKR!

 

* Wouldn't it be more interesting if instead of Nearly Headless Nick Peeves would hear Harry blabbing about the-most-important-memory-in-war-against-V & zoom away "cackling & shrieking" about it, a la "Potty loves Loony!" ?

 

* The Bloody Baron and Nick appear to be good acquaintances. Foreshadowing for the future? I would like to hope.

 

* How does Harry know the current password to D's office? Didn't it change from the last time he was there or is it extremely easy to guess? Anyway, a good security &  protection of the only known relic of Gryffindor here!

 

* "the Headmaster looked stunned"

Apparently D left all hope that Harry would get the memory, but hadn't done anything  himself about it yet either.

 

* Slughorn's "15, if you keep sending me pineapple" kills me.

 

* "I don't have the right kind of background, for one thing."

A private joke or at least partly honest concern too?

Since one of the defining features of narcissistic psychopaths is overconfidence, it probably was only a joke, though.

 

* "No, you'll go far, Tom, I've never been wrong about a student yet."

Well, Tom really went far, so to speak: "I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality." V certainly went far in the fields of magical power, knowledge & in certain sense a position in society- everybody knows his name. However, I am not so sure about "along the path that leads to immortality" part. He doesn't seem any more 'immortal' than somebody with one horcrux to me, just more difficult to kill. Going further would be improving the known recipe for making a horcrux, f.e. making them even harder to destroy or somehow less damaging for a soul to make, or creating a new concept altogether [we had Philosopher's Stone & horcruxes, so far], and we don't have any evidence for V doing smth like that.

 

* "He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people not to recognize a master at work."

Unfortunately, didn't pay attention to' wheedling out' part, when he just directly kept asking Slughorn about the memory time after time [FF doesn't count]. The only other instance of Harry wheedling information out of anybody, which I can remember, is out of Hagrid, who keeps secrets as well as 3–year-old. JKR's tactic of "Harry could tell/sense" isn't IC for FF-free-canon-Harry.

 

* Just for fun, Riddle's part of the conversation:

 

"– Sir, I wondered what you know about… about Horcruxes?

- But you obviously know all about them, sir? ...

- I don't quite understand how that works, though, sir.

- How do you split your soul?

- But how do you do it?

- Encase? But  how-? ...

- What I don't understand, though- just out of curiosity- I mean, would one Horcrux be much use? Can you only split your soul once? ..."

 

One has to be brain-dead not to see that Riddle is looking for "How to make a Horcrux" instruction manual & not acts "just out of curiosity". Btw, this statement is highly suspicious & somewhat reeking of childish, naive stupidity in itself, and would definitely cause the alarm bells to start ringing in many people working with or having children. Slughorn is way too naïve & Hufflepuffesque [is it the word?] for a head of Slytherin here.

 

* "… wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic…"

Interesting wizards of which caliber exactly Slughorn has in mind? Surely not the psychopathic ones?

The dictionary definition of caliber is:

calibre (QUALITY) UK, US caliber - noun [U]- the degree of quality or excellence of someone or something

So, does Slughorn imply that all powerful wizards are naturally drawn to DA?  

May be it explains Harry's fascination with the Prince's book, then.

 

* So, the proposition to rip the soul into 7 pieces made Slughorn gaze at Riddle "as though he had never seen him before", but previous questions about how to do it once were, quoting Slughorn, 'natural'. All right, then.

 

* " D is particularly fierce about it…[discussing Horcruxes]". [Slughorn]

How does Slughorn know that? How can this concept be a great secret and a routine theme of discussion at Hogwarts' staff room at the same time? And what had D already achieved before starting to teach to make his colleges be in awe of him?

Btw, I am sure that if D 's favorite Harry asked him that question, he would get from D at least as much information as Tom from Slughorn. Of cause, Harry isn't a psychopath, but Slughorn didn't suspect Tom to be one, either.

 

*So one doesn't have to make a Horcrux immediately after murder, since V hadn't known yet the required spell, when he killed his father & grandparents? Does it mean that ripped by killing soul never heals? What about killing in self-defense or by accident?

 

* D: "no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two". IITS.

+ Plot Hole! [OK, I made this up].

 DE seem to enjoy killing, which in itself reaps the soul apart, so the assertion that V was the first wizard to have multiple horcruxes is wrong/a convenient plot point.

Moreover, what happened to those evil wizards, who created Horcruxes before? If they were alive, we would have to hear about at least part of them, continuing in their evil ways. If their Horcruxes were destroyed, then how & by whom?

 

* Thinking about this topic I came with a wonderful idea for 4(!) different plot cheats in the next book. Since Harry needed the whole second book to take care of 1 Horcrux [I know he was much smaller, but he & his friends aren't that gifted and/or knowledgeable], he will need lots of help to find 4 in one book. So, we solve it by:

 

Scenario 1: 
>>JK: “Dumbledore's family would be a profitable line of inquiry.”
 >>In Book 7 we will become better acquainted with another member of the Order of the Phoenix. This is someone we know about but have not "met properly."              

D's brother/another member of OoTF steps in and does all most of the job.

Or    
>> Harry might get a different pet "at some point."

Hello, Fawkes! Thanks for swallowing V's or Snape's AK/destroying this horcrux/finding & killing Nagini, in short for saving the day, again.

    Scenario2:                                                                                          

  >>Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JKR: Ooooo, good question. There’s your answer.

Harry sees the [locations of all Horcruxes]/[ways to destroy them] or communicates with somebody, who gives him this information, via mirror or another magical plot device.

Scenario3:   
>>What Harry’s parents did is important to the later plot.

It must be smth enabling/helping Harry to find/destroy Horcruxes.

Scenario4:

>>When asked if Harry's eyes are important, Jo agrees that they are mentioned again and again, but won't say any more.

Another Harry's hidden talent due to his [mother's sacrifice]/[uniqueness].

 

Note: All quotes were taken from M. Scoop's Index to JKR Interviews: http://www.madamscoop.org/bytheme.htm

Of cause, there are endless possibilities in each scenario & they can [& I predict will] be combined in numerous creative ways.

Note: if you got as bored with reading those scenarios as I with typing them, don't worry, you still have the whole 7-th book to enjoy.

* Also, what happened to V's first body? Was it utterly destroyed by AK, stolen or buried? Imagine Harry visiting his parents' graves and seeing V's one in the vicinity.

* "I still don't understand", said Harry not perceiving how the diary had been intended as a weapon as much as a safeguard. Riddle was really too pathetically smug, while giving a chapter long exposition about leaving behind "a diary, preserving my 16-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work" with name anagram shows & almost killing Ginny, considering the fact that Harry somehow managed to forget it all entirely after 4 years alone.

* "I knew what that [further than anybody] meant, though the DE did not."    IITS again!  
Also, D once again seems too arrogant for his own good. Why wouldn't some DE understand? Is this knowledge restricted solely to D & Slughorn? There were wizards, after all, who successfully created a Horcrux before. D's mistake here is obvious, considering the mysterious R.A.B. 

* While D is certainly right about the dangers of the Stone's theft & the Elixir's contamination or running out, one could easily minimize them by creating numerous Stones & hiding them with vast quantities of ready Elixir in different places, while keeping 'untarnished and whole' soul at the same time. The main advantage of Horcruxes over the Stone lies in giving protection against the killing curse, imo. The Elixir wouldn't save V's life after Lily's sacrifice, since it extends life, if drunk regularly, but doesn't keep part of the soul 'earthbound & undamaged'.

* "they could be anywhere in the world- hidden-buried or invisible" [Harry]
A small stone in the depths of the ocean without any magical concealment, which enabled D to find the ring, would be my choice, but then V would be truly invincible & unless the author goes for Orwell's "1984" we obviously can't have that.

* "The diary wasn't that special."
Heh. I would love to see V's face after hearing this. Personally, I would be glad to see some unexpected, not special in any way Horcrux in book 7. It would be both a nice plot twist & make V seem a bit smarter. Sadly, it's highly unlikely to happen.

* After being extremely dim for the entire chapter, Harry proceeds to counting on his fingers to 6 in his attempt to make following D's lengthy explanations easier. And here you thought there was nowhere else to go… 
This serves both as a chance to explain even 6-year-old readers this important plot point & to distinguish our lovable hero from that unlikable, manipulative fellow from the last chapter.

* To equalize between our hero and villain V also begins continues his rapid decline: choosing easy recognizable & widely known objects to hide his soul, hiding them in significant places easily found by everybody knowing a bit about V's past, putting magical concealment charms apparently only to ease the ring's finding, choosing an animal as a Horcrux…
What will happen, when Nagini dies at the ripe old age? May be being "as fond of her as he can be of anything" V decided to give the snake immortality too by making it a Horcrux?

* Harry gives 'an admirably succinct and accurate summary', according to D, who must be really exhausted at this point & can't hide his happiness at the pleasant surprise that another hour's explanation is not necessary, after all.

* "Perhaps, at the point of death, he [V] might be aware of his loss"[D]  
 We won't see at the end of book 7 V understanding his mistakes and/or his sincere posthumous repentance [as a ghost]? <Horrified at the thought>

* D was told (by Snape?) that when V discovered the diary's destruction "his anger was terrible to behold". Considering that in GoF V crucios Avery just for asking for forgiveness, in Lucius's case even crucio!galore clearly wouldn't be enough. It is difficult to combine a 'terrible to behold' anger, according to Snape, who has seen plenty of horrors in his life, with Lucius's smugness at the ministry. Shouldn't he be a tad more careful & frightened after such punishment?
I actually can think about 2 explanations, but they aren't satisfying enough for me:      
 1) V somehow discovered that only after Lucius's imprisonment [we are not told when it happened in the book]. However, it's highly unlikable.  
  2) After been given the mission Lucius's snobbery & bloodlust blinded him to his true situation & made him mistakenly consider himself forgiven, entirely forgetting V's statements "I don't forgive. I don't forget." in the graveyard. But is Lucius that stupid & wouldn't Snape bring his old friend back to reality in that case?

* D's "Ah, poor Lucius…" makes me smile. He is so wonderfully snarky here in Phineasesque way.

* I still can't grasp how D expects Harry to kill V with the power of love. Paradoxically, V's psychopathy may be of great help since:

"Because psychopaths are guided by such a different thought process than non-psychopathic humans, we tend to find their behavior inexplicable. But they're actually much easier to predict than the rest of us once you understand them. Psychopaths follow much stricter behavior patterns than the rest of us because they are unfettered by conscience, living solely for their own aggrandizement. (The difference is so striking that Fuselier trains hostage negotiators to identify psychopaths during a standoff, and immediately reverse tactics if they think they're facing one. It's like flipping a switch between two alternate brain-mechanisms.)"

[From "At last we know why the Columbine killers did it." by Dave Cullen]

 

The only problem is that one has to be trained to be able to exploit that & Harry doesn't even know what the term "psychopathy" really means [to be fair neither did D]. I suspect he will instinctively stick to the correct mode of behavior, causing V to have a fit of Narcissistic Rage, lose control & become vulnerable as a result.

 

* I stumbled upon another interesting point:

A practicing psychotherapist writes about her 15-year-old stepson with Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD): "The hardest thing we had to accept is that this child is incapable of loving. He does not love us. Not in any true sense.

We have learned… to understand that, although he appears to be, he is not evil. He is only concerned with doing and getting what he wants. He is oblivious to the harm it is causing others."

 

Reinforcing this point [from http://samvak.tripod.com/journal65.html]:

 

Note: I understand that people came here to discuss HP & not to read about ASPD. Below is a long quote, which seemed interesting to me, and considering that V is a narcissistic psychopath, according to JKR herself, & the possibility, that somebody else may find it interesting too, it isn't irrelevant here. You can read only the stressed parts or skip it altogether.

  

"In his bestselling "People of the Lie", Scott Peck claims that narcissists are evil. Are they?

The concept of "evil" in this age of moral relativism is slippery and ambiguous. The "Oxford Companion to Philosophy" defines it thus: "The suffering which results from morally wrong human choices."

To qualify as evil a person (Moral Agent) must meet these requirements:

a.      That he can and does consciously choose between the (morally) right and wrong and constantly and consistently prefers the latter;

b.      That he acts on his choice irrespective of the consequences to himself and to others.

Clearly, evil must be premeditated. Francis Hutcheson and Joseph Butler argued that evil is a by-product of the pursuit of one's interest or cause at the expense of other people's interests or causes. But this ignores the critical element of conscious choice among equally efficacious alternatives. Moreover, people often pursue evil even when it jeopardizes their well-being and obstructs their interests. Sadomasochists even relish this orgy of mutual assured destruction.

Narcissists satisfy both conditions only partly. Their evil is utilitarian. They are evil only when being malevolent secures a certain outcome. Sometimes, they consciously choose the morally wrong – but not invariably so. They never opt for evil if they are to bear the consequences. They act maliciously because it is expedient to do so – not because it is "in their nature"…

The narcissist objectifies people and treats them as expendable commodities to be discarded after use. Admittedly, that, in itself, is evil. Yet, it is the mechanical, thoughtless, heartless face of narcissistic abuse – devoid of human passions and of familiar emotions – that renders it so alien, so frightful and so repellent.

We are often shocked less by the actions of narcissist than by the way he acts. In the absence of a vocabulary rich enough to capture the subtle hues and gradations of the spectrum of narcissistic depravity, we default to habitual adjectives such as "good" and "evil". Such intellectual laziness does this pernicious phenomenon and its victims little justice."

&

None of his victims means anything to the psychopath. He recognizes other people only as means to obtain what he desires. Not only does he feel no guilt for destroying their lives, he doesn't grasp what they feel. The truly hard-core psychopath doesn't quite comprehend emotions like love or hate or fear, because he has never experienced them directly.

 

 /I watched a TV program, consisting of 3 series, trying to understand what drives murderers, examining such causes as psychosis, psychopathy and jealousy. There a psychopathic murderer explained why he killed secondly [another inmate after he refused to sleep with him]. Just looking at him and hearing his voice gave me the creeps for the reason stated in brown sentence, even though I couldn't put it into words then. To him, "rape" and "tree" had the same emotional impact -- none. /

 

Following this logic the main conflict in these series isn't between good and evil, at least not evil in a 'usual' sense [V is morally blind & unable to even grasp the term after all], but between normal & mentally ill. Sounds much less exiting or didactic, doesn't it?

Harry is truly special by virtue of being… normal [or in mike smith's eyes – slightly more normal than V].

 

* Part of fandom has been complaining about V being a grotesque caricature of an evil overlord from a fantasy world, rather than a believable villain with motivations. I couldn't agree more, but read this:

 "Harris was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse."

 &

The number of psychopaths in society is about the same as the number of schizophrenics, but unlike schizophrenics, psychopaths aren't loners. That means most of us have met or will meet one. So why people refuse to believe it?

 (1)   "There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

 (2) The powers of self-delusion that the narcissist provokes in his victims.

People refuse to believe that some questions are unsolvable, some diseases incurable, some disasters inevitable. They see a sign of hope in every fluctuation. They are deceived by their own pressing need to believe in the ultimate victory of good over evil, health over sickness, order over disorder. Life appears otherwise so meaningless, so unjust and so arbitrary…       
So, they impose upon it a design, progress, aims, and paths. This is magical thinking.  The Pollyanna defences of the abused are aimed against the emerging and horrible understanding that humans are mere specks of dust in a totally indifferent universe, the playthings of evil and sadistic forces, of which the narcissist is one - and that finally their pain means nothing to anyone but themselves. Nothing whatsoever. It has all been in vain.

 

* I will indulge my horrible fixation with the last quote [it's even more creepy interesting , really!] 

                                     

"Asked if he thinks there will ever be a cure for psychopathy -- a drug, an operation -- Hare steps back and examines the question. "The psychopath will say 'A cure for what?' I don't feel comfortable calling it a disease. Much of their behaviour, even the neurobiological patterns we observe, could be because they're using different strategies to get around the world. These strategies don't have to involve faulty wiring, just different wiring."

Are these people qualitatively different from us? "I would think yes," says Hare. "Do they form a discrete taxon or category? I would say probably -- the evidence is suggesting that. But does this mean that's because they have a broken motor? I don't know. It could be a natural variation." True saints, completely selfless individuals, are rare and unnatural too, he points out, but we don't talk about their being diseased. "

 

NOW IF YOU HADN'T RUN AWAY YET, LETS CONTINUE WITH HARRY POTTER:

 

* "Always he was on the lookout for the one who would challenge him." [D]

As he should, especially considering R.A.B. Was there somebody else, who presented a real danger to V, except D and R.A.B.? In OoTF we learned that both Harry's and Neville's parents 'have thrice defied him', but since they didn't know about Horcruxes, one can't help wondering what exactly they have done. Winning a fight with V, a la D at the ministry, is highly unlikely, as they were easily [killed]/[tortured to insanity] by him/DE respectively. Hope we will find answers to both questions in the next book.

 

* Here we get the most absurd statement in the entire series, which effortlessly beats the infamous D's single tear hands down: according to D, Harry is truly 'remarkable' person since he has "(1) never been seduced by the DA, (2) never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of V's followers!".

 

As to (1), HBP's wonderful book with its "imaginative little jinxes and hexes" [p.224], anyone? Btw, in the next chapter it's referred to as "a beloved pet" & "the book that had become a kind of guide and friend", which Harry "could not let" be confiscated or destroyed after... almost successfully killing somebody with its' help. Imo, if Harry tried the curse on McLaggen from behind without any provocation with the same consequences, he still wouldn't hand this book to Snape or even D(?).

D really seems to be, quoting Red Hen: "not “evil” or even “manipulative”, but all too often, and with progressively greater frequency, simply, “wrong”."  about both Harry & Snape [it's still true even if Snape is D's man, after all].

Paradoxically, Snape could potentially be much more tempting to Harry by luring our hero into his darkness & "convincing the hero to start blurring the lines of his principles and the opposite side’s in his mind". He and Harry seem to share, like, a sort of subconcious understanding & similarities, which Harry would never have with Tom. Using another limyaael's expression, Snape would be one of the "villains who are convincing candidates to give the hero Stockholm Syndrome", unlike V, who tempted Harry in PS with something that both of them know he can’t deliver [reviving Harry's parents]. Snape would certainly be smarter than that! Needless to say, this seduction would be possible only if Harry's parents were alive or if he didn't know anything about the villain's part in their deaths.

 

(2)  SURPRISE!!! TR would "never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire" to do it either, D.

He would sooner die of shame (& we all know how afraid he is of death /a devious smile/) than think for a second of becoming anybody's pathetic follower. Becoming a new Dark Lord is much more preferable & a different matter altogether, though.

 

* I agree with D & Harry that between  being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into it with your head held high"  is  "all the difference in the world". Walking with your head held high certainly helps to prepare much better for the upcoming battle both mentally & physically (not being paralyzed with fear), thus giving a better chance of survival, while " being dragged" there means a certain death.