[identity profile] terri-testing.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
I really, really hate to be fair-minded. But sometimes I just can’t help it.


Regarding the Prank, I’ve always dismissed Lupin’s claim that James had risked his own life to save Snape’s as a feel-good lie to make James look good to his orphaned son, on the same level as “Severus loathed James because James was talented at Quidditch, not because (heavens, no!) James was a nasty entitled little jerk who was talented at making life a misery for everyone not as rich and Pureblooded as himself.”


And really (going back to the Prank), James would always have had the option of transforming into a stag had Moony actually caught up with the two of them, right? Fierce debates on Snapedom years ago over the Prank, over whether a stag (with or without antlers) could have run or even stood up in that tunnel aside, we ended up agreeing that transformed-James could at least have lain down in it.


And he knew that when transformed, Moony wouldn’t bother him.


I mean, didn't he?


We know that the Prank happened before SWM, which happened at the end of Snape and the Marauders’ fifth year. And we know that sometime during that school year, the Marauders all learned to become Animagi and started letting Moony out to frolic, themselves immune to the danger they were exposing others to.


But someone (I don’t remember who, at this remove) once suggested that Sirius might have sent Snape down that tunnel as a prophylactic measure—to get rid of the sneak BEFORE he could inform on the Marauders’ seriously criminal behavior.


Perhaps, before they had even started engaging in the seriously criminal behavior of letting loose a class XXXXX dangerous creature in an inhabited area?


Perhaps… before they were actually capable of such behavior?


We don’t know for sure when exactly in fifth year James learned to transform, or when he verified that his stag-form wasn’t viewed as prey by the werewolf.


If Sirius sent Snape down that tunnel before James could reliably transform, or before James knew for sure that the werewolf would leave the stag alone, then James WAS risking his life in going after Severus.


Even though he still would have been motivated more by CYA (or C. Your Friends’ A.) rather than by any concern for Snape’s well-being, which to my mind would rather let Severus off the hook for a “life debt.”


Still, maybe I’ve been failing to give James his due for taking real risks to save his friends, at least.

Date: 2012-08-03 06:28 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
According to what Severus tells Lily, by the time of the prank the Marauders had been visiting Remus as a matter of habit - at least, that's what I get from 'they sneak out at night' in juxtaposition to there being something strange about Remus. And I don't think they would have been visiting Remus in the Shack before they could transform.

Date: 2012-08-03 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] condwiramurs.livejournal.com
For all that I genuinely applaud your attempt to be objective and fair-minded, I have to agree with oryx that it's doubtful they would have been going to the Shack before they could transform. Perhaps it isn't made 100% unarguably certain that the 'Prank' occurred after those involved could transform, but everything we have evidence-wise leans that way. Even the explanation Sirius gives (at a moment when he's unrepentant and even proud of the deed) for the 'Prank' supports this reading rather than yours: he claims it was at least partly retaliation for Severus' *previous* attempts to follow them when they were sneaking out at night, not purely a security measure. This itself doesn't prove that those events were all connected to the transformation project, but taken together with the other evidence it's more than reasonable to conclude that at least some of them were.

At a minimum, neither the narrative voice nor either of the living Marauders themselves attempts to persuade us that Sirius was acting purely to head off later trouble, before James (or he himself) could transform, when it would not only be easy do to, but when that would serve it *heighten* the heroism of James at a moment when Sirius, Remus, and the narrative voice are attempting to paint him in the best light possible, for Harry's sake. The natural follow-up, if available, to the claim that James saved Severus at risk to his own life is to point out that James didn't even have the protection of his animal form, as he later would. Nobody makes anything approaching such a comment, however, then or later. Suggesting that they *can't.* Because James did have the option of transforming (with whatever caveats about tunnel height, etc. are reasonable).

And, unfortunately, the lying-Remus scenario fits and supports his personality rather well, too.

Date: 2012-08-03 03:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] condwiramurs.livejournal.com
Make that *supports the current reading of his personality,* ack.

Date: 2012-08-03 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com
Sorry about the previous deleted comment.

----Did Dumbledore also put a magical compulsion on Severus to stop spying on the Marauders?

Swythyv pointed out (http://swythyv.livejournal.com/17051.html?thread=278427#t278427) a few months ago that it may not have been Dumbledore who put the compulsion on Severus.

I was thinking that maybe the Marauders forced Severus to make an unbreakable vow in payment for the life debt that he supposedly owed James.

Date: 2012-08-03 05:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com
P.S. I'm referring to the comments section of Swythv's post, not the main essay.

Date: 2012-08-03 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snapes-witch.livejournal.com
I was thinking that maybe the Marauders forced Severus to make an unbreakable vow in payment for the life debt that he supposedly owed James.

I suppose that could have happened, however, I'm wondering if it's possible to make an Unbreakable Vow against one's will?

I'm more inclined to think Dumbledore was just depending on Snape's honor. An honorable Slytherin? Unbelievable . . .

Date: 2012-08-03 07:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
I'm wondering if it's possible to make an Unbreakable Vow against one's will?

In Goblet of Fire Dumbledore states Harry has to compete even though Harry didn't put his own name in. Scary idea that you can be bound to a magically binding, potentially deadly contact against your will.

Date: 2012-08-03 09:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snapes-witch.livejournal.com
Hmmm, yes, but it wasn't an actual Unbreakable Vow and anyway, Harry survived.

Date: 2012-08-04 02:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolf-willow31.livejournal.com
Did Dumbledore also put a magical compulsion on Severus?

Maybe the Marauders forced Severus to make an unbreakable vow.

It seems to me that the threat of expulsion might be enough to make Sev keep his mouth shut, despite any fears that he might have for Lily. Think about it: He's a poor, ugly half-blood with no influential family members, no money, and no future at all if he gets kicked out of school before he can finish his studies and take his exams. With that on his record, how could he ever hope to get a job? He'd end up as a street kid in Knockturn Alley.

Date: 2012-08-04 03:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hwyla.livejournal.com
One of the biggest arguments put up to suggest that James cannot run transformed through the tunnel is based on the description of the tunnel in PoA and DH. However, one ought also to note that the tunnel in DH is smaller than it was in PoA. I'm sorry, I no longer remember the actual phrases, but I do remember thinking at the time of reading that the tunnel was filling itself back in.

The trio cannot stand up straight in it for parts in DH, but Sirius can float Snape out in a vertical position (even tho' he bumps Snape's head on the ceiling every so often) in PoA.

If it can be considerable smaller in 4 years, then how much might it have filled in during the time between school years '75-'76 and '93-'94?

As for whether or not the Marauders had yet discovered whether they were safe as animagi before the prank - It is horrible enough to think that Remus ever forgave Sirius for the 'prank' - but IF it had happened at a point in time where Sirius wouldn't dare go there himself? Then there is absolutely NO WAY the other Marauders can believe that Sirius thought it a 'prank' and not an outright murder attempt. Once they know THEY are safe, Sirius at least has the excuse of not really thinking it through. IF he hasn't proven to himself (and the other Marauders) that Remus can be safe to be around, then Sirius doesn't have that 'out'.

Date: 2012-08-04 06:40 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
As I said once, it's a magical tunnel, always not-quite big enough in some dimension for whoever wants to go through it. Possibly your best chance is to take Hagrid with you - the tunnel will adjust to not-quite let him through, leaving enough room for anyone else.

Date: 2012-08-04 01:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com
----It seems to me that the threat of expulsion might be enough to make Sev keep his mouth shut

Possibly.... but then what stopped Severus from saying something after he was done at Hogwarts?

Date: 2012-08-04 02:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] for-diddled.livejournal.com
Well, he was later prepared to betray all his fellow-DEs and risk murder and torture when Voldemort was going after Lily, so I think he'd probably risk expulsion if he thought she might be in danger. Although of course it might just be that the greater danger of having Voldemort trying to kill you compared to simply being friendly with a werewolf spurred him on.

Date: 2012-08-04 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
and anyway, Harry survived

The justification the Mauraders use. Snape wasn't actually hurt so whats the problem?

Date: 2012-08-04 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
LOL

When something doesn't make sense - its magic!

Date: 2012-08-04 09:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snapes-witch.livejournal.com
Point taken!

Date: 2012-08-04 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Right. Why not tell Lucius? Or Voldemort? Surely one of them would find a way to use it against Dumbles?

Date: 2012-08-05 06:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sionna-raven.livejournal.com
What about the possibility that the magic of the tunnel meets the intruder's expectations?
When Harry and Hermione first enter, they expect a dark narrow hole in the ground and that's what they get. When Sirius and Harry leave again, they are so deep in conversation that they don't think about the tunnel and it let's them pass easily.
The same with the Marauders, they knew it's large enough to let them through and so it did and they might even have gotten more confident each time, making the tunnel broader and the ceiling higher.

Date: 2012-08-06 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolf-willow31.livejournal.com
True, everyone. Points taken (no, not House points; you know what I mean). I hadn't thought it through.

I was thinking that after Hogwarts, he'd be too busy being a brand new DE to bother about Lupin, but of course he's want to give that info to Voldie. He would gain points with Voldie, and get some revenge on Dumbles, too. So there must have been some serious compulsion involved.

I do think he'd fear expulsion, though, and I wonder why he seemed to be obsessed with getting Harry expelled, since that would interfere with the objective of protecting Harry so he could eventually destroy Voldie.

Date: 2012-08-06 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] for-diddled.livejournal.com
"and I wonder why he seemed to be obsessed with getting Harry expelled, since that would interfere with the objective of protecting Harry so he could eventually destroy Voldie. "

Dumbledore wanted Harry to be willing to lay down his life for the WW, which would be less likely if the boy's memories of wizarding life all revolved around being punished in nasty ways. Making empty threats of expulsion (and I don't think Severus would have believed that Harry would actually be expelled, since as you say this would make it harder to protect him) would have been a good way of making it look like Severus hated Harry without having to make his life in the wizarding world too unpleasant.

Date: 2012-08-06 05:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sionna-raven.livejournal.com
Later when Severus decides to turn, Dumbledore trusts him on his word alone. To me Severus seems the kind of boy/man who once he has agreed to keep it secret, he will as long as it is possible. Strange as it is, I don't think that there was any magic involved.

Date: 2012-08-06 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] condwiramurs.livejournal.com
Exactly. It's also a very handy way for Severus to harmlessly blow off steam. If Harry ever stopped to think for a moment, it would be clear to him that Severus (obviously) doesn't have the power to unilaterally expel him. If he paused for another second, he'd notice that there's never any hint of Severus even attempting to carry through on his threats and perhaps (assuming he thinks about it at all) conclude that they are, in fact empty and not to be taken seriously. Indeed, with even a slightly more reflective and less CAPSLOCKY student, the repeated making of empty threats would be a quick way for Severus to *lose* any sense of respect they might have had for him. I think Severus does it because he knows *Harry* will buy it as a credible threat (and thus hopefully start *obeying* him), and because it's a release valve - he'll take them where he can find them. He's not actually obsessed with expelling Harry, as his conduct with Fudge in POA illustrates: it's his one major opportunity to go over Dumbles' head and really punish the boy, and he immediately says Harry and co. aren't responsible for their actions. He's letting off steam in a safe (and probably somewhat amusing to him) way while still attempting to make Harry recognize him as an authority figure. If Fudge or Dumbledore or Umbridge, etc. ever actually tried to expel Harry, he'd never allow it.

Date: 2012-08-07 02:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolf-willow31.livejournal.com
That makes sense. Thanks!

Date: 2012-08-07 01:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com
What about a combination: Snape was forced, or tricked, into some sort of vow, by the threat, overt or covert, of expulsion? He knew he'd keep a verbal promise, but Dumbledore, at the time, would have known about his friends and their ties, and might have insisted on some sort of magical oath.

For the timing vis the Marauders' marauding, it's possible that Snape didn't know about their releasing the werewolf, even if they did it before the 'Prank.' He knew they snuck out. That doesn't mean he knew they were Anamagi, or, if he suspected, that he knew what their forms were. And, it's been stated that the Forbidden Forest had werewolves in it, so even confirmation of Lupin's 'furry problem' wouldn't be as forthright, even if he saw the four of them dancing, transformed, on Hogwarts' lawn.

One thing that really bothers me about defenses of the 'Prank' - everyone assumes that Snape knew he'd end up in an enclosed space at the end of the tunnel. There's no reason to think that. For all he knew, the tunnel ended in the Forbidden Forest, or in a field outside of Hogsmeade, or anyplace but in a room with an untethered werewolf. Even if he suspected a werewolf, he had no reason to consider that he might end up right inside the 'cage' with the beast.

Date: 2012-08-07 01:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
his conduct with Fudge in POA illustrates: it's his one major opportunity to go over Dumbles' head and really punish the boy, and he immediately says Harry and co. aren't responsible for their actions.

It is strange to me that people take Snape's threats to expel Harry seriously. Obviously Dumbledore would never let Harry be expelled.

For all of Snape's supposed hatred of Harry and how Harry thinks Snape is out to get him, look at what happens when Snape really could get Harry in serious trouble. Snape doesn't assume the worst about Harry.

Date: 2012-08-07 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sionna-raven.livejournal.com
But how could Sev's honor or loyalty be invoked in keeping Lupin's/the Marauders' secrets for them?



By psychology, we have a very scared, vulnerable , insecure16-year old standing in front of Dumbledore, a figure of authority, one of, if not the greatest wizard alive. Now he stands there in the headmaster's office, feeling beaten and completely worthless. His enemies have been ready to kill him. He has probably just seen the two main perpetrators leave, Potter strutting smugly, because he has been praised for his heroic act. Someone (Slughorn, Poppy) already might have told him off for sneaking around at night. He's feeling very stupid himself for following Sirius' taunt.
Dumbledore is calm and confident. He seems to know everything. His bright blue eyes look right into Severus'. Right into his mind, his heart, his soul. He can see everything, Severus' most secret thoughts, his dreams of revenge, his feelings for Lily, his experiments and researches in the Dark Arts....
I'm pretty sure at some point since he started suspecting Lupin, Severus has looked up anti-werewolf curses, maybe secretly practised them. I don't think he went down the tunnel to attack the werewolf, but he surely has been trying to prepare to be able to protect Lily. He secretly dreams of being her brave hero.
Dumbledore is talking about Lupin, the innocent, the kind boy who deserves to be protected against all those prejudice, about Potter's selfless act of bravery that saved his own worthless life. Severus realizes that Potter will not be expelled for sneaking out at night and he is Slytherin enough to know about the wealth and influence of the Black family. He must be starting to fear that he is the one who's going to pay the price. He's used to it, isn't he? They will say that he tried to kill his classmate.
Dumbledore says that the events of this night have to be kept secret. Severus expects to be forced into an Unbreakable Vow or any other magic bond. He is much too exhausted and confused to know whether he owes Potter a life debt or not and what this means to him. Is this life debt Dumbledore talks about something that will force him to kind of serve Potter from now on? Will he drop dead, if he ever dares to defy Potter?
Dumbledore smiles. He's so understanding, not ordering asking Severus to understand the necessity to protect Lupin. Then Dumbledore stretches out his hand.
“Mr Snape, will you give me your word to keep this secret”
His word, nothing else? Dumbledore trusts him on his word? His word is the only good thing that truly belongs to Severus, the one thing that is completely under his control. Severus is proud to always keep his word. He believes in a few moral standards, strives to be brave and honest. He always admires those who seem to be naturally good like Lily Evans, like Dumbledore.
Dumbledore has seen that in his mind. He has seen something good in him. Severus gives his word to stay silent and Dumbledore seems very pleased. They shake hands as if they might be equals, as if Dumbledore respects him.

Of course, Severus will recover from the non-magic enchantment in the following days, but he will keep his word, because if he breaks it, he loses the last good thing he has, his honour.

Of course, it hasn't happened exactly like this, but it's how Dumbledore works, how he manipulates people and he's good at it. I'm sure he played the same trick with the Marauders. When Sirius and James left his office they both think Dumbledore is the greatest man they ever met and are blindly loyal.
Yes, I know they still kept their secret about their Animagus ability, but I doubt they think of it as a criminal act. They really believe that they are just helping a friend.

Date: 2012-08-12 01:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] charlottehywd.livejournal.com
Wow, when you put it that way... Poor, poor Snape. Also, seems like yet another example of DD's blatant favoritism.

Date: 2012-08-30 11:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com
Sorry, just now re-found this.

If that tunnel did NOT lead to an enclosed space where the wolf was secured, Hogwarts staff were loosing a werewolf near Hogswarts/Hogsmeade...
(snip)
Of course, would teen!Severus have thought of any of this?


I was imagining more of a scene where the suspected werewolf would be led to a secret location and locked inside a cage. This would prevent him from coming back through the tunnel once he was left on his own, and would prevent him from savaging whoever took him down the tunnel if the timing wasn't right.

Interesting thought about the rumored pack of werewolves in the FF actually being started by Lupin's and Sirius's howling. If a pack actually existed in the FF, wouldn't they have been all over Hogwarts grounds on full moon nights?

And, no, I don't think a teenage boy bent on being a knight in shining armor would think logically.

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