Byronic heroes in Harry Potter?

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

So, I've been poking around various websites and the like to gather characteristics of Byronic heroes, in the hopes of maybe writing a few into some of my own stories. One thing that several sites said which was kind of interesting was that Snape was a Byronic hero. I wasn't quite sure what to make of this; on the one hand, it does seem like he has many traits in common with the archetype, but on the other, it isn't clear to me if simply having the traits makes him a Byronic hero or if there'd need to be something more subtle involved.

So what are your thoughts on that? Could Snape qualify as a Byronic hero? Could anyone else in the series?

For futher reading, you can find the Wikipedia page on Byronic heroes here. My home dictionary, for the record, defines a Byronic hero as "a lonely, handsome, melancholy, flawed man, fatally attractive to women, as popularized by Lord Byron."

Comments

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I think Sirius Black qualifies as a Byronic hero, too.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I see Sirius Black as much more a Byronic hero than Severus Snape. I suppose some may think Snape a Byronic hero because of the Heathcliff parallels, but, honestly, he's not that much like Heathcliff, and it's arguable whether even Heathcliff is (1) Byronic, or (2) a hero.

Which doesn't mean I don't see Snape as a hero! I do, certainly. I just don't see him as Byronic. Really, in universe, he's not attractive to women!

[oryx_leucoryx]

I think the many Severus-shippers are evidence that at least fanon!Severus is often a Byronic type. And at least some of the fics started before DH were written by authors who hoped the canon character would turn out somewhat in that direction.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, one argument that could be made against the notion that Sirius is a Byronic hero could be that I don't know if Sirius has the hypersensitivity or brainpower that really characterizes a Byronic hero. I don't think there are too many "Byronic hero" types that get regular comparisons to dogs, for example.

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Thirding the notion that Sirius fills the bill somewhat better than Snape, though you have a point about the dog thing. I'd say the baseline of a Byronic hero is that he makes his own rules. He's an alpha male. There should be a sense of grandeur or if you like, entitlement about him. "Disrespectful of rank and privilege", "a distaste for social institutions and norms"; his philosophy of life causes him to reject those norms. Snape doesn't think that way. If he had a choice he might prefer to lead a more ordinary life, with friends and a family even.

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Agreed. The only person I ever saw equating Snape with Heathcliff was a dedicated Snape hater. Heathcliff is a vicious, abusive man who beats his wife and kills pet animals for fun. His death is clearly a good thing. Despite one or two moments of sympathy I always read him as the villain.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

I strongly agree with you. Severus seems far from disrespectful of social institutions and norms. And, out of the toxic environment of Hogwarts and the Wizarding World, I can easily see him leading an "ordinary" life.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

toxic environment of Hogwarts and the Wizarding World

A perfect description.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I agree. I would argue that Catherine Earnshaw is a villain as well, since both she and Heathcliff are selfish, hateful, and abusive people who drag everyone else into their self-inflicted misery. I could see some parallels in that both Snape and Heathcliff are depicted as anti-social, strange-looking men who pine after the beautiful and shallow woman who rejects them for the wealthy and more socially acceptable man, and that both of them are trapped in the past. But yes, Snape may be an unpleasant man, but he is not a wife-beater or an animal abuser.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I'd argue that the Byronic hero doesn't necessarily need to be conventionally handsome; after all, Edward Rochester from Jane Eyre is cited by many as a Byronic hero and yet it's made very clear in the text that he's not handsome. But I do agree with you that I don't see Snape as a Byronic hero. He's not viewed as attractive, handsome, or romantic by other characters in the text, nor is he portrayed as such. He also enforces rules and has a disapproving eye for those who rebel against those rules and he doesn't brood much in the books.

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Catherine is awful. The best thing she does is (spoiler), which throws their undying love nicely into perspective.

Snape and Heathcliff undoubtedly have points in common. They're not too different as boys, before Heathcliff turns into a psycho. But adult Snape's goodness or badness is much harder to assess because the author tried to set him up as a bad guy for six books until she flipped it around in the seventh. Before the big reveal Snape is a kind of ogre to Harry, and that's the image that sticks with some readers. (terri_testing has a great essay about the dangers of the Harry filter on Snapedom to which I can't find the link right now.) If someone's hated Snape all through the series DH won't change their minds. It only proves he was on the right side, not that he was maybe a little less dickish than Harry's been painting him.

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Catherine is awful. The best thing she does is (spoiler), which throws their undying love nicely into perspective.

Snape and Heathcliff undoubtedly have points in common. They're not too different as boys, before Heathcliff turns into a psycho. But adult Snape's goodness or badness is much harder to judge because the author tried to set him up as a bad guy for six books until she flipped it around in the seventh. Before the big reveal Snape is a kind of ogre to Harry, and that's the image that sticks with some readers. (Terri has a great essay about the dangers of the Harry filter on Snapedom.) If someone's hated Snape all through the series DH won't change their minds. It only proves he was on the right side, not that he was maybe a little less dickish than Harry's been painting him.

(Reposted b/c I got spamtrapped)

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I totally disagree with the idea of Sirius as Byronic Hero. Snape fits the bill perfectly. I do not see Heathcliff as one either.

Note - from handy Wikipedia - the Byronic Characteristics:

The Byronic hero typically exhibits several of the following traits:[10]
Arrogant
Cunning and able to adapt
Cynical
Disrespectful of rank and privilege
Emotionally conflicted, bipolar, or moody
Having a distaste for social institutions and norms
Having a troubled past or suffering from an unnamed crime
Intelligent and perceptive
Jaded, world-weary
Mysterious, magnetic and charismatic
Rebellious
Seductive and sexually attractive
Self-critical and introspective
Self-destructive
Socially and sexually dominant
Sophisticated and educated
Struggling with integrity
Treated as an exile, outcast, or outlaw

One of the main qualities required for a Byronic Hero is a 'tragic' or 'mysterious' past and usually a LOT of regret. Appearance is not important, tho' he can be 'attractive' by sheer force of personality. Regret (and preferably redemption) is often also of great importance. And since we never get the feeling that Sirius EVER regrets anything he ever did, I cannot see him as one.

Sirius is (for me) much more 'Tragic Hero', even tho' he does share some of the byronic characteristics. He is considered a like-able person (even tho' I cannot stand him) and considered 'heroic' whose downfall is caused by their 'tragic flaw'. Note that Byronic Heros need not even BE heroic, even tho' I believe Snape was. Hero in this case means more like one of the 'main characters'

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Aack! Hwyla, I tried to respond to you, and livejournal ate my comment! Basically, I ran through all of the characteristics you list, and found that Sirius definitely has 11 of them - possibly more - while Severus has between 8 and 10. In marked contrast to Sirius, Severus is not rebellious. Nor is he sexually attractive - not in canon. On the other hand, he fits "intelligent and sophisticated' a little bit better than Sirius, who is bright, but not introspective or analytical. Neither young man strikes me as particularly cultured. As Jodel says, Severus Snape is a working-class autodictat. He's very, very sharp, and very knowledgeable in his field(s), but he doesn't necessarily have a well-rounded education.

Just my two cents!