deathtocapslock | Miss Granger and the Centaurs (Reply)

Miss Granger and the Centaurs

Back in the comments to “The Missing Mirror” spork, the issue of what, precisely, Hermione hoped to accomplish by dragging Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest came up again. And it was clear from the comments that people didn’t remember precisely what canon told us about Hermione’s knowledge of the centaurs. Specifically, everyone was forgetting that she’d encountered the centaurs in Hagrid’s company less than a week before she led Madam Umbridge out to meet them.

When Hagrid took her and Harry to be introduced to his little brother (OotP 30).

So in evaluating what Hermione might have expected to happen, we need first to look at what she learned from the previous encounter. Let’s look at it.

Before they entered the Forest, we read:

“Hagrid, why are you armed?” said Harry.

“Jus’ a precaution,” said Hagrid, shrugging his massive shoulders.

“You didn’t bring your crossbow the day you showed us the thestrals,” said Hermione timidly.

“Nah, well, we weren’ goin’ in so far then,” said Hagrid. “An’ anyway, tha’ was before Firenze left the forest, wasn’ it?”

“Why does Firenze leaving make a difference?” asked Hermione curiously.

“’Cause the other centaurs are good an’ riled at me, tha’s why,” said Hagrid quietly, glancing around. “They used ter be—well, yeh couldn’ call ‘em friendly—but we got on all righ’. Kept ‘emselves to ‘emselves, but always turned up if I wanted a word. Not anymore….”

He sighed deeply.

“Firenze said that they’re angry because he went to work for Dumbledore?” Harry asked, tripping on a protruding root because he was busy watching Hagrid’s profile.

“Yeah,” said Hagrid heavily. “Well, angry doesn’ cover it. Ruddy livid. If I hadn’t stepped in, I reckon they’d’ve kicked Firenze to death—“

“They attacked him?” said Hermione, sounding shocked.

“Yep,” said Hagrid gruffly… “He had half the herd onto him—“

*

Returning from seeing Grawp, Hagrid heard the centaurs approaching. He immediately took an arrow [?] and fitted it into his crossbow [?]. The centaurs were all armed, but left their bows slung over their backs. Magorian’s first words were:

“I thought that we told you, Hagrid… that you are no longer welcome here?”

“How are yeh, Magorian?” said Hagrid warily.

“Four or five” other centaurs now revealed themselves, including Bane, who spoke next.

“So,” he said, with a nasty inflection in his voice, before turning immediately to Magorian. “We agreed, I think, what we would do if this human showed his face in the forest again?”

“’This human’ now, am I?” said Hagrid testily. “Jus’ for stoppin’ all of yeh committin’ murder!”

“You ought not to have meddled, Hagrid,” said Magorian. “Our ways are not yours, nor are our laws. Firenze has betrayed and dishonored us.”

“I dunno how yeh work that out,” said Hagrid impatiently. “He’s done nothin’ except help Albus Dumbledore—“

“Firenze has entered into servitude to humans,” said a gray centaur with a hard, deeply lined face.

“Servitude!” said Hagrid scathingly. “He’s doin’ Dumbledore a favor is all—“

“He is peddling our knowledge and secrets among humans,” said Magorian quietly. “There can be no return from such disgrace.”

“If yeh say so,” said Hagrid, shrugging, “but personally I think yeh’re makin’ a big mistake—“

“As are you, human,” said Bane, “coming back into our forest when we warned you—“

“Now, you listen ter me,” said Hagrid angrily. “I’ll have less of the ‘our’ forest, if it’s all the same ter you. It’s not up ter you who comes an’ goes in here—“

“No more is it up to you, Hagrid,” said Magorian smoothly. “I shall let you pass today because you are accompanied by your young—“

“They’re not his!” interrupted Bane contemptuously. “Students, Magorian, from up at the school! They have probably already profited from the traitor Firenze’s teachings….”

“Nevertheless,” said Magorian calmly, “the slaughter of foals is a terrible crime… We do not touch the innocent. Today, Hagrid, you pass. Henceforth, stay away from this place. You forfeited the friendship of the centaurs when you helped the traitor Firenze escape us.”

“I won’ be kept outta the fores’ by a bunch of mules like you!” said Hagrid loudly.

“Hagrid,” said Hermione in a high-pitched and terrified voice, as both Bane and the gray centaur pawed as the ground, “let’s go, please let’s go!”

Afterwards, Hermione tried to get out her agreement to “help” Hagrid by visiting Grawp by arguing,

“Hagrid,… if the centaurs don’t want humans in the forest, it doesn’t really look as though Harry and I will be able---“

“Ah, you heard what they said,” said Hagrid dismissively. “They wouldn’t hurt foals—I mean, kids.”

So. Hermione knows that the centaurs are “riled,” that they attempted to outright kill Firenze, that they’ve forbidden the Forest to all humans, even Hagrid, and that they are credibly threatening to do something terrible to any human intruders they catch. (Hagrid takes their threats seriously enough to arm himself.)

Also that it’s against the centaurs’ principles to harm ‘foals’, and that she and Harry are classed as such.

(It’s also clear to the reader, and possibly to Miss Granger, that Magorian was trying hard to save his former friend from the wrath of the herd—a dispensation that wouldn’t apply to any adult but Hagrid,)

*

Now turn to the passages from “Fight and Flight:”

“Hermione, keep your voice down,” Harry muttered. “Anything could be listening in here.”

“I want us heard,” she answered quietly, as Umbridge jogged noisily after them. “You’ll see.”
…

“Not far now!” shouted Hermione, as they emerged into a dim, dank clearing. “Just a little bit—“

An arrow flew through the air and landed with a menacing thud in the tree just over her head…. Around fifty centaurs were emerging on every side, their bows raised and loaded, pointing at Harry, Hermione and Umbridge, who backed slowly into the center of the clearing, Umbridge uttering odd little whimpers of terror. Harry looked sideways at Hermione. She was wearing a triumphant smile.

Note that the centaurs fired a mere warning shot. However, unlike in the previous encounter with Hagrid, they were poised to attack. Note too Granger’s reaction, and note that some of the centaurs must have seen it—and quite possibly interpreted it correctly.

Umbridge proceeded to bandy threats and insults with the centaurs until she finally attacked Magorian, whereupon the centaurs charged (not shot). Bane immobilized her, disarmed her, broke her wand, and carried her off struggling and screaming. As he did so, the rest of the herd seized the other two trespassers.

“And these?” said the hard-faced, grey centaur holding Hermione.

“They are young,” said a slow, doleful voice from behind Harry. “We do not attack foals.”

“They brought her here, Ronan,” replied the centaur who had such a firm grip on Harry. “And they are not so young… He is nearing manhood, this one.”

He shook Harry by the neck of his robes.

“Please,” said Hermione breathlessly, “please, don’t attack us, we don’t think like her, we’re not Ministry of Magic employees! We only came in here because we hoped you’d drive her off for us—“

Harry knew at once from the look on the face of the grey centaur holding Hermione that she had made a terrible mistake in saying that…. “You see, Ronan! They already have the arrogance of their kind! So we were to do your dirty work, were we, human girl? We were to act as your servants, drive away your enemies like obedient hounds?”

Yep, that about covers it.

So I think it’s incontestable that clever Miss Granger’s plan all along was to lead Umbridge into the centaur’s territory, alert the centaurs to the invasion, and induce them to attack her violently. Granger probably even anticipated that Dolores’s, ah, meekness and natural charm would make matters worse--though apparently not as much worse, as rapidly, as Umbridge managed to do.

The text makes perfectly clear as well that Hermione had expected the centaurs to let her and Harry off without punishment for the egregious trespass she had visibly—and possibly audibly--led.

Audibly… just how sensitive is the centaurs’ hearing? Clearly the herd had been tracking the trespassers for some time, and deliberately chose to confront them where and when they did: after they’d gathered their forces, and in a clearing large enough to allow the centaurs to freely deploy their bows and to use their superior numbers, size, and strength to their advantage. Remember that the centaurs emerged from “all sides;” they’d been, not following, but paralleling, the intruders’ progress for some little time to be able to do that. When the fighting started, even with the advantage of attacking first Madam Umbridge managed only to temporarily incapacitate one, and to shoot off a stunner, before she was overpowered. And obviously, had any centaur wished merely to shoot and kill any of the humans he’d have had a clear shot. Had the confrontation occurred back on that densely overgrown trail, most of the centaurs’ advantages would have been voided. So it’s clear the centaurs waited until the invaders were on ground that gave the herd the advantage.

However, if the centaurs had been tracking the trespassers for long enough, they might actually have heard Hermione confess her intentions to Harry. Even if they had not, they could all see that she and Harry had been leading the adult (as it transpired, into ambush), and some of the herd had been positioned to see the girl’s “triumphant smile.” Possibly the centaurs who took the initiative to immobilize the students when Bane bore off Umbridge, and who then raised the issue of what punishment they had earned, were among those who had noticed the girl gloating? Note too that Magorian, the peaceful mediator in the encounter with Hagrid and the one who’d made much of the students’ youth previously, found nothing at all to say here in defense of Granger and Potter. He took the lead talking with both Hagrid and Umbridge; regarding the youths, he was silent. Was this perhaps because he regretted what they’d earned, but could not deny they deserved the herd’s wrath?

But Miss Granger was not prepared to be held accountable for her actions. She was so flustered not to be automatically granted the ‘foal’ exemption that she’d counted on, that she almost immediately managed to enrage the herd as badly as sweet Dolores had.

“No!” said Hermione in a horrorstruck squeak. “Please—I didn’t mean that! I just hoped you’d be able to—to help us—“

But she seemed to be going from bad to worse.

“We do not help humans!” snarled the centaur holding Harry, ...”We are a race apart and proud to be! We will not permit you to walk from here, boasting that we did your bidding!”

…

“They came here unasked, they must pay the consequences!”

A roar of approval met these words, and a dun-colored centaur shouted, “They can join the woman!”

“You said you didn’t hurt the innocent!” shouted Hermione, real tears sliding down her face now. “We haven’t done anything to hurt you, we haven’t used wands or threats, we just want to go back to school, please let us go back—“

“We are not all like the traitor Firenze, human girl!” shouted the gray centaur, to more neighing roars of approval from his fellows.

“You said you didn’t hurt the innocent?” The nerve of the girl, making such an appeal! She was guilty: first, of deliberately invading the centaurs’ territory, after having heard with her own ears that they’d declared it entirely off-limits to humans and promised to use violence against intruders. She was guilty further of the obnoxious Umbridge’s invasion (who might. unlike Granger, have been ignorant that the centaurs had declared the forest closed and that they were explicitly threatening trespassers, and who assuredly would not have entered that night except at Granger’s prodding). She was guilty finally, convicted by her own words, of what she had been informed to be the worst human crime in centaur eyes—using them. Using them, moreover, against their knowledge and will. When she knew, absolutely, that even using them consensually, even asking and being granted a favor, was such a white-hot offense to the herd that centaurs who transgressed were summarily executed.

She should have been begging for their mercy, not showing her continued blind arrogance by arguing she should be treated as an innocent when she’d already established her guilt.

I’d say that Miss Granger was really, really lucky that Bane hadn’t been among those placed to see her gloating little smirk. Even more so that he was already out of earshot before she’d confessed to her ingenious little plan. He’d have dropped Umbridge to take her. And he wouldn’t have let a little thing like an enraged giant trying to smash him distract him from dragging the arrogant human off to take vengeance on her for daring to try to use him in such a manner.

Note, finally, that whatever our clever Miss Granger expected Madam Umbridge to endure after Bane carried her off, she was terrified, indeed “horrorstruck,” at the thought that she herself might face the same ordeal. She went from smiling triumphantly at Umbridge’s imminent comeuppance, to pleading breathlessly with the centaurs, then to squeaking in horror, then to crying in terror, when she realized they might consider her deserving of sharing her victim’s fate.

So— Granger deliberately led Umbridge to the centaurs. She delivered Umbridge into their hands to be punished for egregious violations of their territory, their customs, and their sovereignty.

What did she expect the centaurs to do in punishment?

Granger might have expected them to kill Umbridge. That’s what she knew they had tried to do to Firenze, and that was the implicit threat that had Hagrid so frightened that he went armed into the forest and drew at the first sound. (For himself, not for the kids—he too believed they’d count as untouchable ‘foals.’ But then he’d expected them to enter reluctantly, as a favor to him, by themselves, and to be obviously trying not to trespass more than they must on centaur territory. Not to deliberately lead a Ministry official into the middle of the herd and then to gloat openly at their cleverness in getting the centaurs to do their dirty work for them.)

So. Miss Granger might well have expected the centaurs to kill Madam Umbridge, either immediately or slowly. Only, Hermione explicitly said that her plan was for the centaur herd to “drive her off for us”.

Drive Umbridge off?

If Granger truly expected them to kill Umbridge, I’d expect some other form of weasel-words. Like, oh, “get rid of her for us.”

If she had expected them just to threaten Umbridge a bit and then let her go, driving her “off” like they’d done to Hagrid—i.e. back out of the forest—well, that wouldn’t have done Hermione and Harry a lick of good. It would have left them fleeing the forest with a justly incensed Headmistress on their heels. That would have counted as driving Umbridge “off” from the centaur’s territory, true, but not as driving her off “for us.”

Or, if Granger had expected the centaurs to carry Umbridge off and rough her up a little, and for this procedure to take long enough for Harry and Hermione to make their escape and go off to rescue Sirius… well, where’s the “driving her off” come in at all? In that case, Granger would have been hoping for the centaurs to “hold her for us,” or “distract her,” or “detain her for a while,” not “drive her off for us.”

“Drive her off for us” makes it sound like Granger expected the centaurs to do something that would make Umbridge leave. Leave her position, leave Hogwarts, leave them all alone.

What kind of attack could make a woman abandon a deeply-defended, and relished, position of authority?

Plus, Granger did not know, and could not reasonably have anticipated, that the night’s mission would result in Voldemort revealing himself at the Ministry in front of Fudge. In the event, the revelation utterly vindicated Harry and Dumbledore, discredited Fudge’s entire regime, and caused Dumbledore to be reinstated as headmaster (with a new Minister for Magic in the offing).

(Note, by the way, that in canon Umbridge did not make her own way out of that forest. Dumbledore went in and got her. And who knows what he did to her memory or her mouth, to keep her from accusing Potter and Granger of luring her into what proved to be a trap?)

But Miss Granger could not have anticipated any of this.

So if Granger DID expect Umbridge to survive the encounter with an enraged centaur herd, she also expected Umbridge still to be Headmistress in the morning. And still to have the full confidence of the Minister for Magic. And now to have a lurid (and, worse, true) tale to tell about the Boy-Who-Lied and a Muggleborn nobody know-it-all, lying to the Headmistress to lure her into an ambush, arranging for filthy non-humans to assault a high Ministry official so that the pair could run off and do something (else) illegal.

Expulsion? Forget expulsion; Dolores had the Minister’s ear. How the hell did Hermione expect to escape Azkaban for this exploit?

Unless, of course, she expected Umbridge, if alive, to refuse to talk about her ordeal even enough to press charges.

Or to be in such deep shock, perhaps, that she would be unable to speak. Or even to tidy herself.

Too traumatized to resume her duties as Headmistress.

Driven off for them, right.

Permanently.

Exactly how many ways are there for a herd of enraged males to assault one woman, that might leave the victim alive, but unwilling or unable to bear witness against her attackers?

Oh, right. Granger expected the centaurs to rough Umbridge up a little, and then use Umbridge’s own (broken) wand to Obliviate her. Conveniently erasing, along the way, Granger’s own role in setting up the ambush. Because the centaurs are so sweetly cooperative that way, when informed that a human’s used them for her own ends.

Yeah, right.

By the way, I regard it as quite possible that Granger did not admit to herself precisely how she expected the centaurs to “drive Umbridge off for us.” It’s perfectly plausible that Hermione didn’t let herself consciously visualize what the centaurs would do to punish a woman deliberately violating their territory….

But, at least subconsciously, Granger expected the effects of “whatever” the centaurs did to Umbridge to be traumatic enough to neutralize her, not just for a few short hours, but longer-term.

Not to hold the headmistress temporarily so Harry and Hermione could make a quick side excursion, but to “drive her off for them.”

Finally, as I noted above, Miss Granger very obviously understood enough of what she’d called down onto Umbridge’s head to be utterly “horrorstruck” when the centaurs suggested that she’d earned herself the exact same punishment.

Try the argument this way. Suppose I’m dead wrong in my analysis. Granger had no conception of what centaurs, in classical mythology, do to female human captives, and she didn’t really credit Hagrid’s belief that they would kill.

So, when she delivered Umbridge unto the centaurs’ most severe punishment, she totally didn’t expect them to do worse than rough Umbridge up a bit.

Fine, right. Only. Whatever one might argue about what Miss Granger had expected to be arranging for Umbridge to suffer as the centaurs’ captured female violator, the girl was, in canon, horrified and terrified when told that she might face the same fate.

Either the fate we’d seen Granger gloat about arranging for Umbridge was in truth dreadful.

Or, Granger herself was the wimpiest of wimps as well as a howling hypocrite: a sniveling coward weeping in terror at the thought of a short period of mild distress and inconvenience. Horrorstruck and crying in fear at the prospect of experiencing for herself the (minor, we just argued) ordeal that she’d deliberately, triumphantly, just inflicted upon her enemy.

Choose one.

Canon cannot support both.

Either Granger deliberately set Umbridge up for what she expected to be an utterly horrific retaliation from the centaurs—which would justify the emotional volcano we saw Granger give in canon: all that crying and pleading and squeaking in horror at the barest thought of being made to face the same punishment as the primary victim of her plot (I’m sure Bane considered himself and his fellows secondary victims)….

Or, Granger didn’t really expect Umbridge to suffer much at the centaurs’ hands, and was being a ridiculous sniveling abject little coward for being so scared about receiving the same treatment.

I’d argue that the preponderance of the evidence supports the first option.

But if someone wants to make the case that the Granger of Y5 was an utterly contemptible weakling , as much of a crybaby as she was a hypocrite and a bully, I’m willing to entertain that argument.

Or any others….

*No, really! It’s not that Granger gloated over the thought that she’d successfully set up Umbridge to be gang-raped by the centaurs, only to be shocked and terrified to learn the centaurs felt that she herself had earned the same fate. Really! Listen! That’s not what was going on at all! Um—Hermione only expected Umbridge to face a totally minor, easily tolerated punishment for her trespasses. Only, when the centaurs told her that she’d earned the exact same punishment as Umbridge, since Granger had clearly intentionally led Umbridge’s invasion, Hermione, um, well, she panicked and pled and started crying real tears because, um. …

*No, NOT because Umbridge’s fate as the centaurs’ victim was so terrible. Stop that!

*… Because our sweet clever little Hermione is so sensitive. To disapproval. Her feelings were bitterly hurt that the centaurs weren’t praising her for her cleverness in getting them to do her dirty work. She’d expected an O+ from them at the least, and instead they were disparaging her. How could a sensitive flower such as herself be expected to tolerate such unjustified abuse?*

Right.

Now that we’ve got that sorted. ..

Okay. I’ll admit that we can’t say, for sure, from the evidence canon gives us, precisely what fate Hermione expected to have brought down upon Dolores.

We can say, for sure, that whatever it was, the valiant Miss Granger squeaked in terror and recoiled in horror at the threat of receiving the same.

*

While we’re discussing the centaurs, what do you think is the history behind that bitter, bitter hatred of servitude, and their apparent conviction that doing the slightest favor for a human was not only dishonorable in itself, but the first step to subjugation?

Wizards regard themselves as the natural rulers of all the magical races, don’t they? They make the laws, and expect the other beings to obey them. Like not using wands.

The goblins are notoriously—repeatedly--unhappy about the terms of their association with humans, but have retained some independence. The house elves are utterly subjugated. Were they the first magical race to try making treaties with the humans, only to have the humans honor them about as well as Uncle Sam honored its multiple treaties guaranteeing the rights and territories of indigenous nations?

Did the house elves start off voluntarily doing little favors for their friends among the wizards?

Or did some centaur herd in the past make that mistake, that doing so now is seen as blackest dishonor and endangering the whole of centaur-kind?

Think, moreover, about the implications of their choosing to be classed as beasts, not beings.

If centaurs were beings, we’d expect them either to be subject to the same laws as human magicals or, as a sovereign nation, to have a formal treaty with humans. With territorial boundaries, and perhaps extradition agreements, and all like that. Which they’d be expected to honor, or face consequences.

Beasts can’t be held to human laws. Herds of beasts don’t have extradition treaties, and so can’t be expected to turn over one (or many) of its members for assaulting a human. Or doing anything else human laws might ban.

Of course, if a centaur went on a rampage in Hogsmeade or something, it would be slaughtered as a beast, not caught and held to face justice.

But so long as the herd keeps to itself, it can maintain its internal laws. Animals can be subject to any regulations one likes to pass, but no one expects them to cooperate with enforcing them.

*

Finally, there’s Firenze.

I can see, sort of, the centaur herd choosing to participate in the Battle of Hogwarts. Given any two random evils, Tom Riddle was pretty clearly the worst. If Tom and his followers weren’t stopped, they’d eventually take over the forest too…. So once those do-nothing human opponents finally started to fight (and within range of centaur territory, too!), it made some sense to fight as well, even if that did give the unfortunate appearance of “helping” one of the human factions.

Better to get Tom and his followers stopped there, than let Tom’s opponents be defeated, Tom consolidate his hold on the human magicals, and eventually have to face Tom’s invasion of the forest….

And Firenze’s behavior in PS can be defended, whatever Bane may think. Harry really WAS a foal and an innocent then, plus Firenze might well have read in the stars that (contrary to what Dumbles believed when he sent the kid out to face the unicorn-killer), Harry’s death at that time might have weakened, not strengthened, the chances of destroying the Riddle threat.

But, stars above! What did Firenze think he was doing, throwing away his place in the herd, even his life, to help Dumbledore stick two fingers up to the Ministry? He had to have known how his fellow centaurs would react to his betrayal when he agreed to “help” Dumbledore.

We know what Albus wanted: to make sure the Ministry couldn’t oust Trelawney from the physical premises after it sacked her for incompetence at teaching.

But would Firenze have agreed that keeping the human seeress out of Riddle’s hands was worth his own life?

He certainly wasn’t there because he thought he could teach Harry anything, even if he did claim that their meeting a second time had been foretold. (Or was he?)

Did Dumbles trick him into accepting the position, or coerce him somehow, or what did Firenze expect to accomplish that was worth his exile or death?

And—having accepted Dumbledore’s position, and put himself at risk of being executed for treason if he ever returned to the herd—why did he subsequently do so? Which he must have done. He wasn’t all banged up when Harry saw him that first night, and he was being escorted by Dumbles then, not Hagrid. What did he go back to try to tell his fellows, or persuade them of, that resulted in the attempted execution that Hagrid thwarted?

Ideas?