Harry Potter Abridged! OotP Chapter 24

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

I thought I'd post one more of these before I departed from the lovely land of Harry Potter and Iron Maiden and returned to my boring old American hometown.

[Kreacher resurfaces in the attic awhile later]

Harry: He seems happier now than before. Too happy. This is bad, I just know it.

[The holidays are over, and the time to return to Hogwarts draws near]

Harry: And Sirius seems so sad. It sure is a shame I have to leave him here with Kreacher, even to go back to Hogwarts.

Mrs. Weasley: Harry, Harry! Snape is here and he wants to see you!

Harry: Just when I think my life can’t get any worse….

[He goes downstairs to meet Snape, to find him and Sirius sitting at a table glowering at each other]

Snape: Oh, it’s you. Have a seat—don’t mind us. We’re just giving each other the silent treatment.

Harry: Snape is here AND he’s being an immature jerk! I fail to see how this could possibly get more painful!

Snape: By the way, your idiot godfather just won’t leave us alone together!

Sirius: I’m right here!

Harry: And now he’s quarreling with poor Sirius right in front of me. God, AK me! Just AK me right now!

Snape: It’s like this: Dumbledore has given me express orders that I am to teach you Occlumency for the foreseeable future!

Harry: I have to spend even MORE time with Snape?! AAAAAAGH CAN MY LIFE GET ANY WORSE?!

Snape: Believe me, I don’t want this any more than you do, but the order came from Dumbledore himself. I am to give you super-secret Occlumency lessons once a week from now on.

Sirius: Well…why the hell does Dumbledore want you of all people to be Harry’s instructor? Why can’t he do it himself?

Snape: Because he’s a fucking troll, that’s why! Now, Harry, if anyone asks you why you need to see me, you are to tell them you’re taking remedial Potions.

Harry: What?! Now you’re trying to humiliate me by implying I’m not good enough as is?!

Snape: Well, frankly, you’re not good to begin with.

Harry: I am so good! I’m just bad because you suck as a teacher!

Snape: You couldn’t even tell me the difference between Monkshood and Wolfsbane!

Harry: That was four years ago!

Snape: My point still stands! You suck at potions so anyone will believe that as a credible story!

Harry: I HATE YOU SO MUCH!

Sirius: Snape, I’m warning you—if you abuse your lessons to hurt Harry in any way I’ll have your head.

Snape: I do not fear you, for you are stuck in this run-down old house that you hate—all on Dumbledore’s orders, of course.

Sirius: Fuck you—Snivellus!!

Snape: Just for that, I’ll tell you now that I’ll bet you deliberately allowed Lucius to recognize you in your dog form, just so you’d have an excuse to be stuck here and hide away from trouble!

Sirius: That’s not true! The last thing I want is to be stuck here!

Snape: In brief, you’re a coward!

Sirius: [Grabs wand] I am not a coward, you piece of shit! My wand is ten times bigger than yours!

Harry: Sirius, no! If you kill him now, you’ll get in trouble and I can’t find a target for my rage every time I don’t get my way!

Snape: Like, how thoughtful of you.

[But just then, the Weasleys all come in]

Mr. Weasley: Hi, uh, yeah, I’m just dropping in to tell you that I’m cured, and will likely never have to face danger in this series again.

Everyone else: Hooray!

Mr. Weasley: So, let’s get down to business. What the hell are you three doing?!

Harry: I think Sirius and Snape are about to kill each other, Mr. Weasley!

Snape: No! No we weren’t! I…ah…fuck this is annoying. I’m out of here! [Walks to the door] I’ll see you when you return to school, Harry! Do not be laaaaaate!

Mr. Weasley: So…Sirius, what was that all about?

Sirius: Ah…nothing. I just…ah…was about to engage in some bromantic love with Snape.

Mr. Weasley: Well…I just want to say that if that’s really what you want, I support you. We are an open-minded, inclusive family, who do not discriminate—

Other family members: [Burst out laughing]

[After dinner, Harry explains the situation to Ron and Hermione]

Ron: Wow, you have extra lessons with Snape? That’s awful! Maybe you should just let Voldemort probe your mind some more instead.

Hermione: Oh, you say that but you don’t mean it.

[They leave for Hogwarts not long after…]

Harry: I don’t want to leave Sirius. I have this awful sense of foreboding that something terrible will happen to him.

Sirius: By the way, Harry, I have something Very Important to give you. If you ever need to contact me, use this. [Hands Harry a bundle]

Harry: Thanks, man. I will.

[They take the Knight Bus to Hogwarts]

Stan Shunpike: Hey Harry, you remember me from two books ago?

Harry: Why should I remember you? You’re a nobody!

Stan Shunpike: Damn you! I’ll have my revenge on you one day, I just know it!

Harry: Oooh, I’m soooo scared. What’re you gonna do, strike me with your bus?

[The next day…]

Zacharias Smith: Harry, Harry—are we going to have another lesson tonight?

Harry: Sorry, I have to take remedial Potions with Snape.

Zacharias Smith: What? But he doesn’t give extra lessons. You must be terrible!

Harry: It’s not my fault, okay? He’s doing it to torture me because he hates me! [Cries]

Zacharias Smith: Whatever…. [Leaves]

Cho: Hello, Harry!

Harry: Oh, hello my love!

Cho: So…anyway, there’s a Hogsmeade trip on Valentine’s Day.

Harry: Oh, really? Do you…ah…want to hang out with me there, then?

Cho: Sure, alright. I’ve got nothing better to do and I want more screen time.

Harry: Done!

Cho: Sounds good!

[That night, Harry goes to the dungeon for lessons…]

Snape: Welcome to hell. So, shall we begin?

Harry: Yeah, yeah. Anything you say, Mr. Evil.

Snape: You will address me as Professor or Sir, thank you very much.

Harry: Alright, Sir. I’ll do anything you say but I still hate you.

Snape: So, anyway, if the stars align and you succeed in mastering Occlumency you will be able to conceal your thoughts from the Dark Lord….

Harry: Aha! The Dark Lord is what the Death Eaters call Voldemort! Therefore you must still be a Death Eater at heart!

Snape: Now you’re just jumping to conclusions!

Harry: Hey, I’ve come this far in life jumping to conclusions, so why stop now?!

Snape: This is going to be painful…. So, anyway, as I was trying to say before I was so rudely interrupted, the Dark Lord can use Legilimency!

Harry: Oh, so he can read minds?

Snape: Well, if you want to call it by the inferior muggle term you could call it mind-reading. But, my point is, Legilimency can be tricked or countered, if you know Occlumency.

Harry: But…does this mean Voldemort could just read our minds at any time?

Snape: No. You can’t just do Legilimency from anywhere; you have to look directly at someone.

Harry: Then why in the hell do I have to learn Occlumency?!

Snape: Because there’s a mind link between you and the Dark Lord, okay?! I don’t know what it is or how it operates but you have it and it’s dangerous! If you value your life and those of your friends and family you’ll put everything you have into learning this extremely important skill!

Harry: But…but that sounds hard!

Snape: You expect everything in life to come to you easily?!

Harry: Well, quite frankly, yes. I’m the main character, after all.

Snape: Lots of main characters don’t just have everything handed to them on a silver platter! Have you ever heard of Harry Dresden?!

Harry: What, you mean that other wizard named Harry who’s completely inferior to myself?

Snape: …Wow…you actually do know about him…! But…that’s not the point! The point is, you must learn Occlumency, for your good as well as everyone else’s!

Harry: But seriously, aren’t my powers helpful? I mean, I was able to alert people to Mr. Weasley’s attack ahead of schedule.

Snape: The trouble is, if the Dark Lord ever becomes aware of your mind link he could feed you falsehoods or use it against you.

Harry: But how does all this explain how I was able to see inside the snake’s head?

Snape: Most likely the Dark Lord was possessing the snake.

Harry: Oh. It’s all coming together. And with less fighting than we usually go through.

Snape: True, true. Why do I get the feeling this won’t last?

Harry: You and me both.

Snape: Now sit quietly like a good boy while I do a trick.

[Snape pulls out a wand and drops some thoughts into a nearby Pensieve]

Harry: Ooh! Can I look inside?!

Snape: No. It’s private.

Harry: [Snickers]

Snape: What’s so funny?

Harry: You…you say that like it’s going to stop me.

Snape: I can try.

Harry: You can try all you want, but failure is the only option.

Snape: Whatever. Just get out your wand.

Harry: Eew! You sick man!

Snape: You know what I mean!

Harry: Alright, alright. [Pulls out wand]

Snape: So, I am going to cast a spell on you, and you must resist it. Since you can resist the Imperius Curse, for no readily-discernible reason, I trust you will have similar luck with this one. Legilimens!

Harry: AAAAAAAGH! WHY ARE YOU VIOLATING MY MIND SO?! [Faints]

Snape: Oh, come on, were you even trying?

Harry: How dare you defile my mind?! This is the second time this book it’s happened!

Snape: If this author can make horrible depression metaphors she can make horrible rape metaphors. Deal with it.

Harry: Is this my future? Being threatened by symbolic depression and rape everywhere I go?

Snape: Well, the good news is, you showed some resistance to my spell. [Shows burn mark on hand] You managed to burn me with your wand. But in future you’ll need to rely entirely on your mind.

Harry: But I have no mind to resist with!

Snape: So that’s how you’ve managed to resist the Imperius so well? It’s your natural state?

Harry: Pretty much.

Snape: Argh, this is so frustrating!

Harry: It isn’t any easier for me than it is for you.

Snape: Just don’t think. Clear your mind.

Harry: I already don’t think half the time.

Snape: Don’t feel either.

Harry: But that’s haaaaard.

Snape: Good. You get your first taste of having to do what’s right instead of what’s easy. Isn’t that the choice you have to make in this series?

Harry: But…that’s just something they say to attract people to read my books and watch my movies!

Snape: Right. So if you don’t live up to it you’ll be false advertising! That’s a crime!

Harry: It’s a crime?

Snape: Damn right it’s a crime! Now let’s get back to the lesson! Legilimens!

Harry: AAAAAAAAH! I SEE DEAD CEDRIC! HE’S SPARKLIIIIING!

Snape: Again, you’re not trying!

Harry: Yes I am!

Snape: No! You have no handle on your emotions!

Harry: That’s never been a problem for me before!

Snape: Well now it is, so fix it!

Harry: I don’t wanna!

Snape: That’s what weaklings say!

Harry: I’m not a weakling!

Snape: Yes you are!

Harry: No I’m not!

Snape: Are too!

Harry: Am not!

Snape: Then prove it! Legilimens!

Harry: I see…a mysterious door!

Snape: No, dammit! You’re not supposed to see anything at all!

Harry: But I do! It’s the same mysterious door I’ve been having dreams about! I think it’s in the…Department of Mysteries?

Snape: What’s that got to do with anything?!

Harry: Well…just what is in the Department of Mysteries, anyway?

Snape: Nothing that concerns you. Can we just get back to the lesson?

Harry: No, dammit! I’m the main character! If I see the phrase “Department of Mysteries” it’s only because I’m destined to find out what those mysteries are!

Snape: It’s a lie! Your mind’s playing tricks on you! This is a perfect case study in why you must learn Occlumency right now!

Harry: But…!

Snape: No buts! Now you will return to me every Wednesday to continue our lesson. In the meantime, I want you to practice clearing your mind of emotions before you sleep—a very useful skill.

Harry: Yeah, yeah. Whatever. [Leaves]

Snape: He’s doomed…. [Goes to Pensieve and returns some memories to his head]

[Harry meets up with Ron and Hermione in the library]

Harry: Ron! Hermione! I know about the Department of Mysteries!

Ron: You mean…in the Ministry of Magic? You think Voldemort wants something from there?

Hermione: Oh, is this the same door Sturgis Podmore tried to get into?

Ron: Wait—why would someone on our side be trying to get in there?

Hermione: I don’t know—it’s suspicious.

Ron: Suspicious enough to be important, you think?

Hermione: Most likely not. [to Harry] Wow, you look terrible!

Harry: Of course I do! Occlumency is horrible—I’m subject to constant psychic assaults from Snape!*

Hermione: Wow, that does sound horrible. Oh, well—nothing to be done about it. Let’s just go back to our room.

[In the Common Room…]

Fred: So, yeah, my brother and I invented Headless Hats. You try one on, both head and hat will become invisible!

Harry: I…I don’t feel so good. I think I’ll just go to bed early and wallow in how defiled I am.

[He goes to his room, when suddenly…]

Harry: AAAAAH! IT’S VOLDEMORT! HE’S…he’s happy. What the fuck?

Ron: Harry, are you alright?

Harry: Voldemort’s happy! How in the hell is he happy?! Is he laughing at my torment from afar?!

Ron: I’m sure you’re just tired after your Occlumency lesson. Get some sleep.

Harry: H-how in the hell am I supposed to sleep at a time like this?!

[Meanwhile, in the dungeons…]

Snape: Harry shall never see inside my Pensieve! He will never witness the horrors it contains! Never! Bwahahahahaha!

*AN: As I think of it, how creepy is it that there’s no way to defend yourself from what amounts to symbolic rape other than to experience it? And why the hell do “good guys” use a power like that?!

Comments

I know there's much more to talk about, but—

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

OMG the Twilight reference!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
(Voldemort's greatest error, no doubt, is not driving a stake through Cedric's heart or decapitate him when the latter was still a mere mortal...)

CAN'T WAIT FOR CHAPTER "SWM"! And by the way, Merry Christmas to all DTCL.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Am enjoying the Snape - Harry banter. Thanks, and Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holiday of your choice, to all!

Snape's Teaching Method

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

“…there’s no way to defend yourself from what amounts to symbolic rape other than to experience it”.

One might say there’s no way to learn self-defense other than by defending oneself against attack.

The thing that seems ‘off’ about Snape’s Occlumency lessons that there’s little actual teaching: no theory, almost no explanation of techniques, no practicing the method at low power and building up as Harry improves. Snape may not be using his full power, and he does give Harry warning so he has time to prepare (which Voldemort isn’t going to be doing), but it is a brutal method of teaching. It’s rather like teaching swimming by saying, “Now, wave your arms and legs,” and tossing the student in the pool.

You can say, ‘well, Snape’s just a bad teacher,’ but I think Snape was teaching Harry the way Snape was taught himself. The question is: was it Voldemort or Dumbledore—or both of them—who taught young Severus Occlumency by raping his mind until he worked out how to stop it?

Re: Snape's Teaching Method

[oryx_leucoryx]

Magic is all intuitive, science is for Muggles. Or really, Rowling never made her mind up regarding how it should work.

Re: Snape's Teaching Method

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Science is for muggles? No wonder JKR hated her chemistry teacher.

Re: Snape's Teaching Method

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I also think that it is possible that this is the only way Snape knows of learning occlumency.

Since Albus tells Harry later that he knew the teaching of occlumency WOULD actually open Harry's mind more to Voldy (at least at the start), I think this is also exactly how Albus would have taught it as well. So, quite possibly it was Albus who taught Sev. We just don't know enough from canon to determine for sure.

One also must take into account that Voldy could literally be watching Snape teach this through Harry's eyes. That is the very reason Albus won't teach Harry. So Sev must walk a rather thin line (razor edge) and attempt to teach while still being able to explain to Voldy that he was trying to 'not teach'.

Re: Snape's Teaching Method:/ Canon that it's THE Teaching Method

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Actually, there are two things in canon that reinforce that Jo/the WW don't know any better way to teach mental defense.

First is Barty Jr: 16 months back, masquerading as Mad-Eye, he put the Imperius Curse on a whole class full of 14-year-olds "to teach them to resist it." He gave NO explanation of how they were supposed to do so (as opposed to Sev's slight indications to Harry); at most, he told them (possibly inaccurately) how to tell that Harry was partially successful. Rather, Barty spent the whole class making teens do embarrassing things in front of their peers, and making both Harry and Neville do things that were potentially dangerous if they managed to resist while in motion. And he forced Harry to continue after Harry was physically injured.

And everyone who heard about this public exercise in pain and humiliation, from DD & Minerva & Severus to Augusta Longbottom to Lucius to Madam Edgecombe, went, "Yep, that's exactly how DD's pet retired Auror, recipient of our world's most rigorous training in defense against the Dark Arts, would teach schoolkids to resist the Imperius."

The second thing in canon that reinforces the view that this is how practitioners of the obscure art expect to be taught is Sirius.

He knew that Harry would be studying Occlumency; he knew that Snape would be Harry's teacher. BEFORE Harry had left 12 Grimmauld Place. His Christmas present to Harry had been a set of books on magical defense. If there were any books in the Black library, or any books available at Flourish & Blotts, that Sirius knew of that would help, he'd have gotten them for Harry. For that matter, Sirius was an experienced and adept Occlumens himself--if he had any TIPS to give Harry to speed his learning to close his mind against Snape's intrusions, he would have given them. Instead, all he did was order Severus not to abuse his position teaching Harry, and give Harry a mirror to allow him to stay in contact. No books, no tips, even though he was obviously upset that Snape was to be Harry's teacher.

Also no quick first lesson from himself, which of course makes sense if the only way SIRIUS knew to teach was to break into Harry's mind--why would he want to attract Harry's resentment onto himself by doing so? Of course he'd rather DD do so, and failing that, leave it to Snape, even if he was worried that Snape might abuse the personal information he'd thereby gain access to.

(Indeed, we can probably infer that Sirius's insults to Sev--you haven't really reformed!--were as, shall we say, founded in his considered judgment as Sev's "Coward" in return. Aimed--accurately--to hurt, rather than reflecting perceived truth. If Sirius truly believed Sniv loyal to Voldie, giving Snape unlimited access to Harry's mind would be an insane risk which Sirius should do almost anything to stop. Not imply Sev might misuse it to give Harry a hard time, and later order Harry to demand more lessons when Snape stopped them after the Pensieve Incursion! Nah, Sirius may not have trusted Sev to treat Harry "nicely," but he really had no doubts about Sev's ultimate loyalties. Which raises the question: why not? I mean, Sirius made it plain he WASN'T Dumble's lapdog where Harry was concerned--if he were, he'd have stayed out of England. So he didn't just accept DD's word, he believed in Snape for reasons of his own....)

A Dumbledore Conspiracy Theory: The TIming of the Announcement of Occlumency Lessons

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's an addendum to the above: note that DD sent Snape to 12 Grimmauld to tell Harry about Occlumency lessons ON THE LAST DAY OF VACATION.

Why?

Did it really take Twinkles OVER THREE WEEKS to work out that Occlumency lessons might be a Good Thing for Harry? (Okay, he is the Dumb One, but still...)

And if it DID take that long, why not wait one day more and give Harry a note on his return to Hogwarts ordering him to report to Professor Snape the following evening and say it was for "Remedial Potions"? Or just instruct Severus to pick a fight with Harry in Monday potions and give him a "detention" and explain to him then?

Or, why not send a sealed headmaster-note to Harry at 12 Grimmauld, if for some reason Harry needed the extra day's notice? Why make Severus the heavy (well, okay, Twinkles always does that), and why send Severus to Grimmauld Place to do so?

What was accomplished by sending Snape to 12 Grimmauld with the announcement of Harry's impending Occlumency lessons the afternoon of Harry's last day of vacation that would not have been accomplished by any other method/time of notification?

Well, Sirius found out about them. And Sirius found out about them at the last minute.

Sirius probably would have respected a sealed note to Harry from Albus, and Harry probably would have obeyed direct instructions from the headmaster not to tell ANTONE about the impending lessons.

But send Snape in, with Dumbledore's instructions to speak to Harry in private? Pretty much a guarantee that Sirius--Snape's enemy, master of the house, and Harry's godfather--would insist on sitting in.

And thereby demonstrate to Harry that Sirius ignored Dumbledore's orders at will (or when Harry was concerned). On the one hand, giving Harry the warm glow of feeling that he was important to Sirius. On the other hand, rubbing in the fact that Sirius lacked discipline. He wouldn't obey Dumbledore, even in the simplest matters. So when Sirius ends up getting killed disobeying Dumbledore's orders, it clearly will be his own fault, not Albus's ....

However, in the unlikely event that Sirius DID let Snape have a private conference with Harry (and didn't listen in), Harry was NOT under orders to keep his lessons secret from the Order--just at school, and from Umbridge. So he would almost certainly have told Sirius about the dreaded lessons as soon as Snape left....

So. Sirius learns that Harry is to learn Occlumency, and to be taught it by a teacher Harry and Sirius strongly dislike. And Sirius learns this the afternoon before Harry is to leave him.

Re: A Dumbledore Conspiracy Theory: Timing Part Two

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

If this announcement had been made, say, on December 19th, Sirius would have had over three weeks to,if he chose, try to teach Harry HIMSELF how to close his mind effectively. As it is, Sirius has a few hours.

Bear in mind that Sirius and all the Marauders were Occlumens adept enough to have lied to the headmaster when he was investigating them for wrongdoing. They were self-taught adepts who lied successfully to Albus in their fifth year. His interrogation into that little prank involving sending a fellow student to the Shrieking Shack to be werewolf-bit did NOT turn up the least hint that the Marauders were Animagi who were repeatedly loosing the werewolf for their own entertainment.

And the two surviving Marauder members of the Order have shown unmistakably that they both(still and always) put pack loyalty ahead of loyalty to Albus and the Order. Remus hid information from Albus throughout his year on staff; Sirius returned to Britain to be near Harry against Albus's direct orders.

Loose cannons, both of them. Untrustworthy.

Unlike, say, Severus, who returned to Tom's side at Albus's request, and who risked a horrific and protracted death by torture to obey Albus.

How did the Marauders learn Occlumency so well and so quickly? Did the Blacks or the Potters have some family traditions regarding this obscure art that they drew upon? Or did those creative mayhem-brewers invent some alternate way of teaching the skill?

Fifteen and sixteen year old students utterly bamboozled Albus Dumbledore when he investigated their Werewolf Caper. That had to have rankled.

How did they do it?

No good asking the survivors, his supposed followers--they put, still, pack-loyalty ahead of what should be their absolute obedience to him.

And Harry is clearly Pack to Sirius, and shows signs of reciprocating.

So. Spring on Sirius,the very day before Harry is to leave him ,that Harry is doomed to learn Occlumency under Severus's wand. Surely, whatever tips and tricks the Marauders had learned or had developed to protect against mental intrusion, Sirius would pass on hurriedly to his godson?

Hurriedly being the salient point--he couldn't possibly teach them thoroughly enough for Harry to protect himself against the full wanded and incanted Legilimens spell cast by a wizard of Snape's power and skill.

So whatever special techniques the Marauders had learned or had developed would be open to Snape, who would--good obedient boy!--pass them on to his true master.

Dumbledore.

Re: Snape's Teaching Method:/ Canon that it's THE Teaching Method

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

There's also the way we see Lupin teach Harry the Patronus Charm.
No getting him a book to read first, no letting him practice casting casting without a Dementor in the room first.
Never mind that it's just common sense that casting for a first time when you aren't under a attack would be easier. And that knowing that you can cast would help boost your confidence when the Dementor stand in is introduced into the lesson.

We also know that this more humane method would work.
DA member learned it that way, and (after spending almost a year under the DE's gentle care) were able to cast to repel Dementors.

But still Lupin "The most awesome teacher ever" teaches by making Harry faint repeatedly and suffer the effect of a Dementor.

Re: Snape's Teaching Method:/ Canon that it's THE Teaching Method

[sunnyskywalker]

Yep, Lupin seems to follow standard wizarding teaching methods. They seem to have two: make the kids memorize stuff by rote and hope that they magically start making connections someday, and throw them into a situation and hope they figure it out.

Which only makes sense, give that historically these were standard teaching methods. (The first still is, to only a slightly lesser extent than in the past.) The Hogwarts staff and any private tutors are hardly likely to be reading Muggle educational research, are they? Honestly, we should probably be surprised they aren't still reciting lessons aloud in class.

The DA, which introduces such wild ideas as letting the kids try Patronuses without any Dementor influence first, is notably taught by Harry-backed-by-Hermione, both of whom had several years of Muggle schooling relatively recently. Probably not a coincidence...

Rowling occasionally pretends there's some sort of theoretical basis for magic and that they learn it, like when Flitwick makes them read "extra books" to prepare at one point, but it's pretty unconvincing. Potions might be the only class where there's enough talk of experimentation and certain ingredients causing certain effects that you can actually imagine it as a real academic subject, and most of that is only because of its similarities to chemistry, which many readers have actually taken and so can fill in the blanks more easily. And even there we don't see either Snape or Slughorn giving demonstrations on the proper/best ways to slice roots and crush juice out of beans before turning the kids loose with their silver knives, never mind making them solve potions problems of some sort. It's just not how it's done! Real wizard teachers don't explain things!

Symbolic Rape?

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that I would agree with you that legilimency is symbolic of rape. I think that is more the function of love potions - even tho' JKR seems to thinks them harmless.

Part of the problem is that both love potions and mind-reading are considered stock and trade of magic - albeit from different magic practitioners. It would be difficult to leave them out - much like she has included hypnotism in the books as the Imperious.

I'm curious whether you see Veritaserum in the same light? Since it forces one to tell the truth whether they wish to or not? I'm thinking of your comment about 'why the good guys use it' and it's a really complicated question - ranking right up there with why 'good guys' in the real world use torture on terrorists for info. I wish I had an answer - unfortunately I can easily see reasons pro and con.

I will say that I don't believe ALL legilimency feels the way it does it Harry's lessons. I think it is purposely amp'd up, so that the student can actually recognize it is being used and react. I think the first step in learning occlumency is learning to recognize what it feels like when legilimency is used on you.

There are several times in the books that it seems likely that Harry is being legilimenized previous to these lessons and yet doesn't know it is actually happening - from both Snape and Albus. Note that only during lessons is a wand used, which might increase the power. And legilimency would hardly be a useful tool in spying if one isn't subtle enough with it.

And I wonder whether or not one can forcibly take memories for the pensieve? It certainly seems easy enough to do, as long as you can get them to bring the right memory to the front of their thoughts. Seems ripe for misuse to me as well.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said about the way the lessons played out. I just doesn’t think you need to be outraged at sweettalkeress about it. My impression was that she was not exclaiming, “OMG, Evil Snape mind-raped poor innocent Harry!” If one views Legilimency as mind-rape, then learning Occlumency *must* involve experiencing mind-rape in order to learn to fight it off. If Snape hadn’t done it, Albus would have, as he must have done to young Severus in lessons years before. One could use the more generic term “assault” rather than the loaded word “rape” (the original meaning of which is not “to violate sexually,” but “to abduct” or “to seize and carry off,” but no one remembers that any more. It gained its sexual meaning because a woman who is seized and carried off all-too-often ends up violated as well.)

I vaguely recall that Harry was supposed to pick up the theory from reading but never did, but that may be fanon. The main things missing are the preliminary instruction in how to ‘fall’, and one or two basic defensive moves before the attacks begin. It’s been a long time since I took karate (I quit after my first broken rib), but I remember practicing moves before actual sparring began.

[oryx_leucoryx]

There is no mention of books on Occlumency in canon. The theory amounts to:

- avoid eye contact (unhelpful with Voldemort in Harry's case)
- do what you did against the Imperius Curse
- practice emptying your mind of emotion

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Seconding oryx's points. And Snape did give Harry a 'falling' or defensive technique to practice, if you want to think of it that way: he point-blank told Harry that he needed to practice clearing his mind every night. And Harry REFUSED TO TRY.

Even the best teacher in the world cannot make a student actually practice when they don't wish to. If Harry had had even the most basic respect for either Snape or for the necessity of actually working at something whether or not he wants to (rather than assuming it's only worthwhile if he personally likes the activity and is a natural at it), and had done his assigned homework, maybe the lessons would have gone better.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

To clarify: I am absolutely not trying to vilify Snape here, or argue that he wasn't the best teacher there could have been under the circumstances. What I was going for here was an indictment of ROWLING, that SHE allowed such creepy subtext to get into her story without even realizing that was what she was doing. For my part, I've taken martial arts for years too (I've even assisted my instructors in teaching martial arts on one or two occasions) and I still think this whole scene is really creepy. Look at how it's phrased in the book itself:

"No, said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer, you're not watching that, you're not watching it, it's private--"

"He [Harry] was on his knees again, his face buried in his hands, his brain aching as though someone had been trying to pull it from his skull."

Furthermore, it's implied that the effects of this continue after the lesson is over: "Harry felt shivery; his scar was still aching, he felt almost feverish."

And you could argue that some of this is Harry-filter (and maybe that last one is more Voldemort than having Legilimency used on him), but I've seen anime that have called psychic assault on similar or even lesser things. As for why I haven't mentioned Harry doing the same thing to Snape, I haven't gotten there yet--when I do it will be addressed.

And this is nothing like a self-defense lesson in a martial-arts class, because martial-arts classes, particularly those dealing with beginners, have to ease those beginners in slowly, and show them the techniques before they can progress to being in realistic fighting situations (I know I've learned some pretty complex self-defense techniques that have to be practiced for sessions at a time before they're any good at all in the real world). Here, we don't see that. It's not enough that Snape makes Harry aware of what he's going to do--we don't see ANYONE (Snape, Dumbledore, Sirius, Hermione, Arthur Weasley, or whoever) give Harry ANY tools for defending himself until his first lesson...AFTER Snape uses Legilimency on him once. I don't think this is entirely Snape's fault, but either way this isn't like teaching Harry self-defense; this is more like if an instructor tackled and started grappling with a new whitebelt who had no prior self-defense training, and just expected the whitebelt to fight his way out. And maybe that's how Snape learned it...but either way it's creepy!

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I agree that it's creepy the way Rowling chooses to set it up, yes. But then, there's a lot of unintentionally creepy stuff in these books, ugh.

(I think it's...easy to have a hair trigger on this subject because of the way the situation is often taken as purely some sadistic choice on Snape's part, without consideration of 1) ROWLING'S choice to set it up that way and 2) the lack of any sign that Snape could have chosen a substantially different method of teaching.)

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

"But then, there's a lot of unintentionally creepy stuff in these books, ugh."

I agree and that's pretty much what's keeping my abridging afloat at this point.

I do think that if this scene were played out differently I could maybe view Legilimency in a more innocent light, but such as it is....

I'd kind of hoped that it would come through that Snape thinks this whole business is ridiculous, as he's the one I had point out that it's a bad rape metaphor in the same vein as Dementors being a bad depression metaphor.

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

Speaking of martial arts, i'm now reminded of Luke Skywalker's training as a Jedi under Master Yoda: it consisted of what appeared to be cross-jungle running and track exercise, doing impossible gymnastic stand-on-his-head stunts while levitating rocks with the Force, yet when he cut short his training to go to Cloud City, he could already sort-of hold his own against Darth Vader in a light saber duel (I'll admit that Vader wasn't turning on his full power until he cut off that hand, but still), and after "Empire Stikes Back" ended Luke taught himself to craft his Weapon and by the time the next movie's events happened (Yoda having already passed away) he could already do Jedi Mind Tricks, light saber duel to the best ability of a person who basically went on a crash-course, and could back flip his way up a storey-high catwalk in the Death Star. I mean, his training had really been bare-bones, but he made it work because he studied very hard, and he had the best master/mentor possible.

Compare that with the stupid Occlumency lessons...

[oryx_leucoryx]

Over the books Harry received special individual training from various mentors. Remus taught him to use the Patronus against dementors. This worked to the point that Harry's abilities surpassed what we see of his mentors'. This is because Harry trusted Remus and because he feared that failing would result in more defeats at Quidditch.

'Moody' taught him to resist Imperius. This was successful because Harry trusted 'Moody', and probably because he was being taught in front of his peers, while praising Harry's specialness for his initial success - he was motivated by pride.

Severus' teaching failed despite following similar methods to the two previous private instructors because Harry did not trust him, Harry refused to practice his skills, and moreover - Harry believed his connection to Voldemort to be useful, so he had motivation to fail.

(In POA his motivations were ambivalent - he found the memories that the dementors and fake dementor brought up tempting because they were a connection to his parents, but he was able to overcome the temptation because of Quidditch, and probably avoiding public humiliation while doing so.)

Welcome to the Royal Navy

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Perhaps a martial arts lesson is the wrong analogy. After all, Hogwarts isn’t located in Japan, and teaching karate isn’t a part of traditional British culture. At the moment I happen to be reading a book about boy sailors in the Royal Navy, and this morning I came across a first-person description of a boy being taught to swim:

“Every boy had to learn to swim in a wooden bathing tray three feet six inches deep at the shallow end and about seven feet deep at the other, and it was covered in barnacles. The method of teaching swimming was by two Instructors to each boy. The boy would have a three inch canvas strap round his waist with two lines attached. The Instructors would have a line each at the shallow end and persuade the boy to enter at the shallow end, keeping him afloat until he got out of his depth, and then one instructor would let his line slacken, or perhaps they both would slacken their lines, and the boy would be floundering about until they pulled him up again. I learned in about three lessons—with treatment like that you learn quickly.”

This was in 1897, and the author of the book says he went through exactly the same training in 1947. Like the Royal Navy, Hogwarts is a conservative institution. Maybe I wasn’t wrong earlier when I said the Occlumency lesson was like teaching someone to swim by saying, “Now, wave your arms and legs,” and tossing him in the pool. We really shouldn’t be comparing Hogwarts to a modern school where a student’s self-esteem is gently encouraged. It’s not that sort of institution. Compared to the Royal Navy, Snape is being downright gentle; at least his bathing tray isn’t lined with barnacles.

Re: Welcome to the Royal Navy

[sunnyskywalker]

He helpfully says "Legilimens!" out loud before each attempt and lets Harry see which memories he's rifling through. We know that skilled Legilimency doesn't require either (e.g., Voldemort peeking into Harry's head to find the Stone's hiding place, Snape seeing that there's something about that Potions book). So this does seem to be the equivalent of those swim-training lines, or throwing really slow punches until the student learns to block them, or whatever the analogy of choice is.

Re: Welcome to the Royal Navy

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

With Snape, the swim-training lines are always there. His teaching style is rough, but he’s not going to let you drown. Those who belong to the “evil bullying Snape” school of thought never appreciate that. What’s worse: having wounded self-esteem, or being dead?

Re: Welcome to the Royal Navy

[sunnyskywalker]

Well, ideally one could be both not insulted and alive ;-) I appreciate Snape's vigilance and all his other good qualities, but there's certainly room for improvement in his approach. I don't see his teaching style as some uniquely nasty invention of his, though--it looks to me like he's directly imitating his own teachers, chiefly McGonagall, both with regard to demeanor and to the "just jump in and flail about until you learn" method (which seems to be the ww's only real alternative to "learn stuff by rote until you figure out how to innovate somehow" method, which they also use). Given that he has no teacher training, the ww seems to have no pedagogical theory whatsoever, the poor examples he has, and the enormous stresses he's under, I think he's doing remarkably well. Better than some of his teachers, even, in terms of student safety. I just wish he could quit spying, get some real peer support and mentorship, and go teach motivated upperclassmen somewhere that doesn't remind him of his worst memories everyday!