[identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
In hir essay "Inconveivable," condwiramurs discusses the implications of magical-muggle marriages when Secrecy is at the very foundation of the wizarding world. Condwiramurs writes, "As the direct, MAGICAL offspring of a mixed witch-muggle marriage, Severus Snape was practically a walking violation of the Statute of Secrecy itself. Standing inherently and unchangeably right astride the most fundamental line in the wizarding world."

In response, I decided to do an analysis of known literal half-bloods. Unless stated otherwise, all of my information comes from Pottermore. Most of the notes from Pottermore can be found on tumblr; just google "[character name] pottermore tumblr" I realize that there are varying opinions on the canonicity of sources beyond the published books, so that will make this post more or less relevant to the discussion.

Wizards/Witches with a Muggle parent include:

--Celestina Warbeck
--Tom Marvolo Riddle
--Minerva McGonagall
--Dolores Umbridge
--Sybill Trelawney
--Severus Snape
--Remus Lupin
--Gilderoy Lockhart
--Seamus Finnigan
--Dean Thomas

ETA 1: I've added more discussion about Minerva McGonagall.

ETA 2: Hwyla speculated that House affiliation might affect how half-bloods fare, so I've added that information. Celestina, Minerva, Remus, Seamus, and Dean are Gryffindors; Tom, Delores, and Severus are Slytherins; and Sybill and Gilderoy are Ravenclaws.

Celestina Warbeck
House: Gryffindor
Parents: Wizard father rescued her Muggle mother from a Lethifold.
Outcome: The Warbecks appear to have had a happy marriage. Celestina has a very successful career, but it's in a field where there's little competition from other witches and wizards.
TL;DR: At least one of Celestina's parents probably wasn't British and may have had different attitudes about the muggle/magical divide.

According to her chocolate frog card and the Pottermore timeline, Celestina Warbeck, the "singing sorceress" was born in 1917. We learn from Pottermore that Warbeck "hails from Wales" (though Warbeck not a Welsh surname.)

Her father, a minor functionary in the Muggle Liaison Office, met her Muggle mother (a failed actress) when the latter was attacked by a Lethifold disguised as a stage curtain.

Celestina’s extraordinary voice was apparent from an early age. Disappointed to learn that there was no such thing as a wizarding stage school, Mrs Warbeck reluctantly consented to her daughter’s enrolment at Hogwarts, but subsequently bombarded the school with letters urging the creation of a choir, theatre club and dancing class to showcase her daughter’s talents. [snip]

More controversially, Celestina was vocal in her disagreement when the Ministry of Magic sought to impose restrictions on how the wizarding community was allowed to celebrate Hallowe'en.

JKR writes that she modeled Warbeck's character after the famous Welsh singer Shirley Bassey "in both looks and style."

There's actually quite a bit of information hidden in these details.

First, FB tells us that "the Lethifold is a mericifully rare creature found solely in tropical climates." This means it's fairly likely that Celestina's parents did not meet in Britain, but somewhere much closer to the equator. Please note that, in 1917, several countries in the tropics were still part of the British Empire, and therefore possibly also under the jurisdiction of the British Ministry of Magic.

Second, real-life Shirley Bassey is the daughter of an Englishwoman and a Nigerian merchant seaman. Similarly, Celestina Warbeck is usually depicted as a woman with African ancestry. This, in combination with my first point, strongly suggests that at least one of Celestina's parents is from a former (or current) British colony in either Africa or the British West Indies.

This is important because countries and cultures outside of Western Europe may have (or previously had) very different ideas about the muggle/magical divide and the importance of Secrecy. I imagine the lines to be much blurrier in some societies. There are possible hints of this is Celestina's story. Unlike many muggle parents, Mrs. Warbeck continued to be quite involved in her daughter's education after Celestina started at Hogwarts, and Celestina, herself, sometimes had "controversial" opinions about how the Statute of Secrecy was enforced.


Tom Marvolo Riddle
House: Slytherin
Parents: Impoverished witch Merope Gaunt (supposedly) used a love potion on wealthy Muggle Tom Riddle, Sr.
Outcome: Tom Sr. left Merope before Tom Jr. was even born. Merope died in childbirth. As an adult, Tom Jr. despised Muggles, hid his Muggle ancestry, and (according to Dumbledore) murdered his father and paternal grandparents.


Minerva McGonagall
House: Gryffindor
Parents: Witch Isobel Ross eloped at age 18 with the local Presbyterian minister, Robert McGonagall.
Outcome: The whole Pottermore essay on Minerva is about the challenges of growing up as a literal half-blood and the difficult choices she had to make when she, herself, fell in love with a Muggle man, Dougal McGregor.

Dougal did not know what she, Minerva, truly was, any more than her father had known the truth about Isobel before they had married. Minerva had witnessed at close quarters the kind of marriage she might have if she wed Dougal. It would be the end of all her ambitions; it would mean a wand locked away, and children taught to lie, perhaps even to their own father. [snip]

Mindful of the fact that if she broke the International Statute of Secrecy she would lose the job at the Ministry for which she was giving him up, she could give him no good reason for her change of heart. She left him devastated, and set out for London three days later. [snip]

Though undoubtedly her feelings for the Ministry of Magic were coloured by the fact that she had recently suffered an emotional crisis, Minerva McGonagall did not much enjoy her new home and workplace. Some of her co-workers had an engrained anti-Muggle bias which, given her adoration of her Muggle father, and her continuing love for Dougal McGregor, she deplored. Though a most efficient and gifted employee, and fond of her much older boss, Elphinstone Urquart, Minerva was unhappy in London, and found that she missed Scotland. Finally, after two years at the Ministry, she was offered a prestigious promotion, yet found herself turning it down.[snip]

Known to successive generations of students as ‘Professor McGonagall,’ Minerva - always something of a feminist - announced that she would be keeping her own name upon marriage. Traditionalists sniffed - why was Minerva refusing to accept a pure-blood name, and keeping that of her Muggle father?

I think it fairly likely that the Ross family was once one of the more prominent wizarding families in Britain. The names are clues. In the real world, Clan Ross has a well-established history in the Scottish Highlands dating back to the 13th century, and Minerva (definitely a wizarding name) was named after her great-grandmother, "an immensely talented witch." Isobel knew that her parents "would frown on a connection with the serious young Muggle," and her marriage to Robert left her estranged from her family. I'm speculating that, nevertheless, Minerva's Ross heritage may have helped to make up for her half-blood status. She excelled at both Hogwarts and in her career.

It's a little ironic that Isobel married a Presbyterian minister because, in previous centuries, conservative Presbyterians took the lead in the witch hunts in Scotland, though the Highlands were less affected by this than the Lowlands. How much of the Rosses' anger was due to Robert being a Muggle, and how much was due to him being a Presbyterian minister?


Dolores Umbridge
House: Slytherin
Parents: Wizard janitor Orford Umbridge married Muggle Elizabeth Cracknell.
Outcome: The Umbridges were unhappily married and eventually divorced. Delores pretended that she was a pure-blood.

Dolores Jane Umbridge was the eldest child and only daughter of Orford Umbridge, a wizard, and Ellen Cracknell, a Muggle, who also had a Squib son. Dolores’s parents were unhappily married, and Dolores secretly despised both of them: Orford for his lack of ambition (he had never been promoted, and worked in the Department of Magical Maintenance at the Ministry of Magic), and her mother, Ellen, for her flightiness, untidiness, and Muggle lineage. Both Orford and his daughter blamed Ellen for Dolores’s brother’s lack of magical ability, with the result that when Dolores was fifteen, the family split down the middle, Orford and Dolores remaining together, and Ellen vanishing back into the Muggle world with her son. Dolores never saw her mother or brother again, never spoke of either of them, and henceforth pretended to all she met that she was a pure-blood.


Sybill Trelawney
House: Ravenclaw
Parents: Wizard father, Muggle mother
Outcome: Not much is said directly about Sybill's experiences as a half-blood. However, Sybill's wizarding ancestry was apparently extremely important to her.

(Sybill's) early marriage ended in unforeseen rupture when she refused to adopt the surname ‘Higglebottom’. [snip]

Sybill is the great-great granddaughter of a genuine Seer, Cassandra Trelawney. Cassandra’s gift has been much diluted over ensuing generations, although Sybill has inherited more than she knows. [snip]

Trelawney’ is a very old (Cornish) name, suggestive of Sybill’s over-reliance on her ancestry when seeking to impress.


Severus Snape
House: Slytherin
Parents: Witch Eileen Prince married Muggle Tobias Snape.
Outcome: Discussed extensively in condwiramurs post, "Inconveivable"


Remus Lupin
House: Gryffindor
Parents: Wizard Lyall Lupin rescued Muggle Hope Howell from a Boggart.
Outcome: The Lupins seem to have been happily married. Remus's status as a werewolf affected his life a lot more than the fact that he was a half-blood.

Lyall Lupin was a very clever, rather shy young man who, by the time he was thirty, had become a world-renowned authority on Non-Human Spiritous Apparitions.[snip]

On an investigative trip into a dense Welsh forest in which a particularly vicious Boggart was supposed to be lurking, Lyall ran across his future wife. Hope Howell, a beautiful Muggle girl who worked in an insurance office in Cardiff, had taken an ill-advised walk through what she believed to be innocent woodland. Boggarts and poltergeists may be sensed by Muggles, and Hope, a particularly imaginative and sensitive person, had become convinced that something was watching her from between the dark trees. Eventually, her imagination became so overactive that the Boggart assumed a form: that of a large, evil-looking man, bearing down on her with a snarl and outstretched hands in the gloom. Hearing her scream, young Lyall came sprinting through the trees, causing the apparition to shrink into a field mushroom with one wave of his wand. The terrified Hope thought, in her confusion, that he had driven her would-be attacker away, and his first words to her – ‘it’s all right, it was only a Boggart’ – made no impression on her. Noticing how very beautiful she was, Lyall made the wise decision not to talk about Boggarts any more, but instead agreed that the man had been very big and scary, and that the only sensible thing to do was for him to accompany Hope home to protect her.

The young couple fell in love, and not even Lyall’s shamefaced admission, some months later, that Hope had never really been in danger, dented her enthusiasm for him.

There are several details worth noting here. First, Lyall was already "world-renowned" by the age of 30. Translation: He could probably do whatever he pleased. Second, Hope was very very beautiful. Translation: Her beauty probably helped to make up for her "shortcomings" as a Muggle. Third, Hope was particularly "imaginative and sensitive" and, despite her being a Muggle, a boggart assumed a form in her presence. Translation: Hope could probably pass as a squib with undocumented wizarding ancestry.

Also, is it significant that two of the only happy marriages on this list resulted from a wizard rescuing a hapless Muggle woman from a magical creature?


Gilderoy Lockhart
House: Ravenclaw
Parents: Witch mother, Muggle father
Outcome: Not much is said about the Lockharts' marriage. It may be significant that Gilderoy's expertise was in memory charms. Gilderoy never exactly learned how to fit truly into wizarding society.

Born to a witch mother and a Muggle father, with two older sisters, Gilderoy Lockhart was the only one of his parents’ three children to show magical ability. A clever, good-looking boy, he was his mother’s unashamed favourite, and the realisation that he was also a wizard caused his vanity to blossom like a particularly pernicious weed. [snip]

It was a most unwelcome shock to discover that his name was unknown, his talents were unexceptional and that nobody was particularly impressed by his naturally wavy hair.


Seamus Finnigan
House: Gryffindor
Parents: Witch mother, Muggle father.
Outcome: Seamus says in PS, "Me dad’s a Muggle. Mum didn’t tell him she was a witch ’til after they were married. Bit of a nasty shock for him." His father is never mentioned again, and it appears that Seamus grew up in the wizarding world, which suggests that his father was no longer in the picture.


Dean Thomas
House: Gryffindor
Parents: Wizard father, Muggle mother.
Outcome: Dean's father left the family when Dean was very young. While Dean suspects that his father was a wizard, he hasn't been able to prove it by the time of DH. JKR wrote on her old website:

Nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them.

It's interesting that Seamus and Dean are best friends and seem to mostly stick together, though Harry may just be oblivious to their other friendships.

Date: 2015-09-08 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
Also, is it significant that two of the only happy marriages on this list resulted from a wizard rescuing a hapless Muggle woman from a magical creature?

Yeah. }:-\ Call me Rorscharch but I smell a rat here. If I don't know "better" I'd say those attacks weren't accidential.

Re: Seamus' parents
I'd very much like to continue my points on Condwiramurs' previous post here, in which I ask others "Do you also think it's "no big deal" that a bride-to-be conceals the fact that she's a witch until they were married? Can it be handwaved away with the "In Sickness and in health" deal?"

Date: 2015-09-08 06:57 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Lying about one's identity can be grounds for conviction for rape even in a simple sexual liaison, let alone marriage.

Date: 2015-09-08 12:56 pm (UTC)
germankitty: by snarkel (Default)
From: [personal profile] germankitty
Nowadays it can, yes, but was that legislation already in place in the late 1970s, when Seamus and Dean were conceived resp. their parents got married? Somehow I'm not so sure ...

Also, in the case of the Finnegans, if he's from the Republic of Ireland his parents couldn't have had a divorce by law until he was almost finished at Hogwarts, which applies if his mother only confessed to being a witch after the marriage, implying that she had a Muggle ceremony. So either he's Northern Irish (= British), his father deserted his wife and son, or there's considerable handwaving necessary to make Wizard laws applicable.
Edited Date: 2015-09-08 01:04 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-09-08 01:54 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
In the 1970s marital rape was legal in most places. But I thought vermouth1991 was asking about the morality of the question. At least that was what it looked like where they described the original context of the discussion.

Date: 2015-09-08 02:50 pm (UTC)
germankitty: by snarkel (Default)
From: [personal profile] germankitty
Not in Britain until 1991, if I've read this paper right.

That hiding one's true identity from one's spouse is morally wrong, no doubt, but I just wanted to point out that there was no legal recourse in existence at the time. We can only assume from the scant information HP canon gives us that (specifically) Seamus' father left his wife and son because of that.

A purely religious marriage might be annulled based on the lie, but dissolving anything civil that's legally binding would've been far more difficult.

Date: 2015-09-09 05:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
I was mainly asking about the morality of it, at least back when I first formulated the question for the forum (which was circa December 2014), but I wouldn't mind some legal imput from more knowledgeable people than myself. :)

The real "stump" in this question, as I see it, is really that it's hard if not impossbile to find a real life comparison to something as big as hiding that you have ~*magic*~ from your S.O.; actually, no, I can think of a few, but they invariably seem to make the hoodwinked S.O. seem narrow-minded or prejudiced for minding the Thing, instead of deserving pity or justice for being tricked.

Date: 2015-09-09 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Well, suppose your partner revealed they had the ability to mind-control you, and was raised to believe that mind-controlling you was right and proper, at the right circumstances.

Date: 2015-09-09 06:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
Oh I understand your example on a fantastical level, of course (even just knowing the things magic can do is creepy enough, never mind the indoctrination that goes with it) — same reason I love and would gladly defend superhero films who'd go for the "realistic consequnces' approach such as "Man Of Steel": if someone like Superman really exists, it's only fair that as many people would fear him as would look up to him — I'm just stumped to find real life cases that leaves the hoodwinked party at least justified in expressing horror or disgust instead of being asked to accept hir partner no matter what.
Edited Date: 2015-09-09 09:07 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-09-09 01:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Somebody hiding a history as a violent criminal? A history as a child-rapist? A history as the mad dictator of a little-known country?

Date: 2015-09-09 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
A person diagnosed with a mental illness one is unprepared to cope with? From severe anxiety disorders to sociopathic inclinations to pedophile attractions to schizophrenia. This kind of thing tends to break up relationships if they develop years after the relationship started, and one should probably disclose them before engaging in any serious relationship. People should be able to know what they are getting into.

Date: 2015-09-09 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spongebending.livejournal.com
The main problem with that comparison is, like you said, that many people aren't even aware that they are mentally ill or it develops later in life.

My depression started when I was around 14, but I didn't even realize I was mentally ill until I got committed when I was 17.
I met my partner when I was 18, he knew about my depression, but my anxiety didn't develop until I was in my 20s and there's no way I could have predicted that for him when we met.
My illness(es) onset fairly early and I got treatment fairly quickly as well; I was lucky. Many people I have met in therapy are in their 40s and 50s and they didn't get diagnosed until they were middle-aged. It's actually surprising hard to tell if oneself is mentally ill; I mean you can only know what's inside your own head, on top of that, many of us suffer from low-esteem and just dismiss our own suffering as being weak, whiny, etc. There's a lot of stigma surrounding the idea of being mentally ill too, I think many people who refuse to face it are in denial.

Wizards and witches, on the other hand, are verified of their magical status by the age of 11 at least. They all know by the time they get to dating age; it's not like a muggle will suddenly turn magical at 45, as can happen with mental illness.

Date: 2015-09-09 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spongebending.livejournal.com
Maybe the closest comparison could be ethnicity?
It's something you are born with, and you can't it change it.
Not all ethnicities can pass for each other, but some can; at least to members who aren't of that ethnicity. (ie. My partner's German grandfather tried to pass for Polish, which was he passed for in America, until a real Polish person showed up).

So yes, witch/wizard passes as Muggle, then reveals themselves as magical to their partner would be similar to let's say a Greek passing a Spanish, and then revealing their true heritage after they'd gotten married.

Date: 2015-09-09 09:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
I think the equivalent for magic is a mental illness that was definitely diagnosed but can't be treated. The person knows it exists and knows it would be extremely disruptive for the life of anyone close (more than the average expected disruptions of life). I think the decent thing to do would be to disclose it to a potential intimate partner so they can decide whether they want to make a commitment when something like that is known to be involved.

(BTW I do not intend to imply that people with mental illnesses don't deserve to be happy. Just that it is not a typical situation, and people need to be prepared.)

Date: 2015-09-10 03:29 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
That works too.

Muggle Parents concerns

Date: 2015-09-12 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
Celestina’s extraordinary voice was apparent from an early age. Disappointed to learn that there was no such thing as a wizarding stage school, Mrs Warbeck reluctantly consented to her daughter’s enrolment at Hogwarts, but subsequently bombarded the school with letters urging the creation of a choir, theatre club and dancing class to showcase her daughter’s talents. [snip]

Mrs. Warbeck had a Wizard husband to back her up.

What happens to ordinary Muggles who complain about Hogwarts? - no music, no choir, no band or orchestra, no science, no literature, no foreign languages (not even Latin, which their spells are based on).

The only "maths" is Arithmancy, the only sport Quidditch.

Date: 2015-09-12 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] for-diddled.livejournal.com
True, but I'm not sure that having magical ability would count as lying about one's identity in the relevant sense. Plus of course there's the difficulty proving it in a muggle court...

Re: Muggle Parents concerns

Date: 2015-09-15 11:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nx74defiant.livejournal.com
I've wondered if the Board of Governors doesn't send some one to make Muggle parents forget their silly complaints. Hermianie saw no problem in making her forget her, since she had seen the authorities, make them forget their concerns about her education. So what's wrong with her going a little farther?

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