Whether or not a particular group of people interested in dark magic believe or don't believe they can cast ONE PARTICULAR spell wouldn't have any relationship to whether the spell is actually dark or is understood to be dark by those who know what dark magic (in the non-crude sense) is.
Being interested in dark magic in general doesn't necessarily mean a wizard will be able to cast every single dark spell. If they can't for whatever reason manage the particular state needed for that spell - for whatever reason - that only applies to that one spell. Not to the principles of dark magic or the nature of the spell itself.
As to Dolores:
1) she doesn't have to be a dark arts expert to cast the spell. We know that Harry and the members of the DA can do so, and they're hardly DEs or dark arts fanatics. They probably don't even realize the spell is technically dark.
2) She played up the DE connection to her family deliberately, politically. Not the case with Percy or Sirius. Though she wasn't marked, she was clearly firmly in the DEs ideological camp at that time. So whatever idea that people holding those views and working towards those goals would suggest they can't cast the patronus is undermined by her example.
So I'm afraid I'm lost as to what specifically you're trying to argue with the DE example, sorry.
And again, since there's nothing in the books themselves regarding DEs and casting the patronus, all we have to go on is one un-thought-through statement of JKR's after the fact. Which, IMHO, if it doesn't match up with book-canon, should be ignored. But that's my personal take.
I suppose my major point here is: there's nothing in the books to actually suggest that the DE's CAN'T cast it. We just don't see them in situations where they would need to. Umbridge's example shows that someone with their views can cast it. So I don't see WHY we should assume they can't cast it and therefore that that needs explanation. It's a non-question for me. Individual DEs are as likely to be able to cast it as any other individual wizards/witches: a matter of personality, magical strength, and understanding what's needed to cast it.
That is: I don't think wizards do assume DEs can't cast one. No character says as much. That's an idea external to the books (and not well supported by them).
Now, the Ministry putting out that the spell is hard IN GENERAL because they don't want ANYONE to be able to resist their guards? Yes, that would make sense. But we don't see them target DE-types specifically with any such message.
As to the example of Harry: yes, sphere of influence - he was across the lake at the time he drove off 100. Plus, though, he had JUST seen himself (he realized) do it. He was high on belief there, no doubt at all. In the alley he wasn't as certain to begin with. And with the DA: I agree that the atmosphere of seeing people mastering it helped, yes, very much.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Patroni
Date: 2015-09-21 04:29 pm (UTC)Whether or not a particular group of people interested in dark magic believe or don't believe they can cast ONE PARTICULAR spell wouldn't have any relationship to whether the spell is actually dark or is understood to be dark by those who know what dark magic (in the non-crude sense) is.
Being interested in dark magic in general doesn't necessarily mean a wizard will be able to cast every single dark spell. If they can't for whatever reason manage the particular state needed for that spell - for whatever reason - that only applies to that one spell. Not to the principles of dark magic or the nature of the spell itself.
As to Dolores:
1) she doesn't have to be a dark arts expert to cast the spell. We know that Harry and the members of the DA can do so, and they're hardly DEs or dark arts fanatics. They probably don't even realize the spell is technically dark.
2) She played up the DE connection to her family deliberately, politically. Not the case with Percy or Sirius. Though she wasn't marked, she was clearly firmly in the DEs ideological camp at that time. So whatever idea that people holding those views and working towards those goals would suggest they can't cast the patronus is undermined by her example.
So I'm afraid I'm lost as to what specifically you're trying to argue with the DE example, sorry.
And again, since there's nothing in the books themselves regarding DEs and casting the patronus, all we have to go on is one un-thought-through statement of JKR's after the fact. Which, IMHO, if it doesn't match up with book-canon, should be ignored. But that's my personal take.
I suppose my major point here is: there's nothing in the books to actually suggest that the DE's CAN'T cast it. We just don't see them in situations where they would need to. Umbridge's example shows that someone with their views can cast it. So I don't see WHY we should assume they can't cast it and therefore that that needs explanation. It's a non-question for me. Individual DEs are as likely to be able to cast it as any other individual wizards/witches: a matter of personality, magical strength, and understanding what's needed to cast it.
That is: I don't think wizards do assume DEs can't cast one. No character says as much. That's an idea external to the books (and not well supported by them).
Now, the Ministry putting out that the spell is hard IN GENERAL because they don't want ANYONE to be able to resist their guards? Yes, that would make sense. But we don't see them target DE-types specifically with any such message.
As to the example of Harry: yes, sphere of influence - he was across the lake at the time he drove off 100. Plus, though, he had JUST seen himself (he realized) do it. He was high on belief there, no doubt at all. In the alley he wasn't as certain to begin with. And with the DA: I agree that the atmosphere of seeing people mastering it helped, yes, very much.