OotP Chapter Eleven
Jan. 4th, 2008 11:15 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslock*Harry "doesn't want to tell anyone he and Luna were having the same delusion." So he doesn't tell anyone about the Thestrels. Kind of interesting given that it implies a) that Harry thinks he's delusional and b) he seems to have decided that Luna's crazy and therefore doesn't want to be associated with her. Though presumably if people think Luna is crazy for seeing Thestrels, Harry's saying he sees them would help her out--two crazy people don't independently share delusions. If you both see them, it's real.
*Besides which, given you live in a magical world, what's so crazy about these things? It's really funny how JKR is always running up against this, where Harry and Hermione's life as Muggles somehow don't ever affect their perception of the Wizarding World at all. They automatically know what could be true by Wizard standards.
*Luna endears herself to me by saying Hagrid's not a very good teacher and not backing down (because she didn't say anything bad) even when everyone is rather brutish about it. The Gryffindors look really foolish, but Luna will still be their best friend because IITS.
*This is a totally small, weird point, but it just struck me as interesting that Harry refers to himself as "seeing something Ron could not" in the Mirror of Erised. I'm sure it's just to compare that situation to the Thestrels, but a more accurate description would be that they both saw different things, and neither could see what the other could. It just fits in with the tight Harry pov that he'd phrase it as Ron not being able to see his parents, as if that was what was really there, or that Harry's seeing that was something special about Harry.
*People at the feast are waving to friends in other houses--funny, being in Harry's pov you'd think nobody ever spoke to anyone in any other house.
*Ginny is "hailed by fellow fourth years" when they get to the hall. No doubt they were just miserable before she finally arrived! Woo-Hoo!
*From all the heavy hints it seems clear Hagrid not being there is supposed to be a Great and Terribly Ominous thing. I get it already, and I'd prefer if we didn't have to talk about him every two sentences so I could enjoy his not being there.
*The hat sings. Hufflepuff is re-defined as the "all the rest" house (the one where the Professor and Mary Ann were Sorted).
*More importantly, the founders were *all* fighting, according to the hat, and Slytherin's leaving made peace, but also caused the sorry state of today--three against one. Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like Slytherin made a sacrifice for others there. Which maybe made him almost good enough to be friends with them but not quite.
*It seems a lot of people read the song as being halfway followed throught he DA, since it has kids of different houses, but it seems pretty clear that the division between Gryff, Puff and Claw hasn't been an issue since Slytherin left. That's just the status quo, guys.
*"Branched out a bit this year, hasn't it?" says Ron. LOL Ron!
*"He felt his return to Hogwarts, so long anticipated, was full of unexpected surprises, like jarring notes in a familiar song." Author's joke about long-awaited "dark" OotP? You be the judge.
*At the idea of "all the houses being friends" Harry looks over to Draco, who is "holding court." This has to be heavy foreshadowing of Harry having to get a new attitude about this kid, doesn't it? Nick's suggestions about "friendly ties" (as opposed to being bff) with Slytherin's ghost meet with reactions that offend him to the point of floating away. ETA: So what the hell was the point of this? I'm frankly amazed that it turned out that Harry's "I'll never work with Draco" was not an opinion that would ever be challenged.
*Ron and Hermione bicker and then spend the night sitting in huffed silence, like a bitter, middle-aged couple. Cute. Not.
*Harry may wear glasses, but he has tremendous eyesight. Not only can he see Ernie Macmillan's prefect badge, which I always imagine as quite small, GLEAMING on his chest from across the hall, but he notices Umbridge's teeth are quite pointed. Did he get those glasses from the back of a comic book?
*Given that I now know what's going to happen, I note there's no specific description of Slytherin's reaction to Umbridge, so I assume they don't have any more knowledge than anyone else--I mean, I think Umbridge and Lucius know each other, but it doesn't seem like Draco has some clue what she plans to do yet.
*Hermione scolds Ron for calling first year's midgets, then "commandingly" yells, "First years!" Personally, I think
*Harry handles Seamus' doubts with incredible grace.
*Dean defends himself with the fact that his parents are muggles and he's "not stupid enough" to tell them about deaths at school (good for you, Dean--we all know telling your parents would be traitorous).
*Seamus angrily points out he can hardly do that, given his mother. I think he was pretty open to Harry's side before Harry yelled at him--presumably when Harry was an asshole Seamus suddenly felt a "rush of affection" for his mother, and so declared Harry was mad just like the paper said.
*Yeah, I'd love to be a Gryffindor student and show up fifth year to learn that prefect duties now include keeping Harry Potter from having to deal with students he doesn't want to. Poor Harry hates being ignored, but hates being stared at, hates that he didn't get to tell his side of the story, but when asked his side of the story, refuses to tell. A good person would be able to tell what was going on! Nobody knows what it's like! Nobody!
*Proving Harry's point, Neville naturally announces that his gran has sussed out exactly the correct attitude: It's the Prophet that's going downhill, of course Voldemort's back and "we" believe Harry. The light from Neville's blessed pure soul briefly lights up the room, then dims to a quiet glow.
*"We believe Harry" btw. It's not an individual thing, it's families that have different beliefs. Seamus, as a halfblood, eventually comes to his own conclusion (though Harry makes it difficult). The Weasleys and the Longbottoms display virtue by knowing to believe Harry. Harry feels a rush of affection for Neville for this, much like his rush of affection for Sirius for also agreeing with him out of nowhere.
*ETA: And you know, the moment I know H/G was going to happen already in HBP was the moment Ginny agreed with Harry out of nowhere and smacked down Hermione. Think about what that says about the great love Harry feels for her.
*A few more offerings to the Church of Saint Harry and Neville might almost become a real boy! The kind who grows up to do three different jobs you imagine when you're six all at the same time.
*Now Harry's all, "Dumbledore and I are in this together! He believed me!" and "I wonder if he's angry with me for making him lose his special positions!" Harry, you dimwit, Dumbledore couldn't care less about losing his stupid positions, and he made no sacrifice at all in backing you. When you figure out you're his pawn and not his bff, let us know. Maybe in the now suddenly possible Book 8.
*Harry worries how many "attacks" like Seamus he will have to endure. Well Harry, if you're going to ignore your own part in any argument, I suppose it might be legion.
Designated Hero
How many attacks will ours face? How can Seamus be stopped?? What can Harry do, short of actually trying to talk to anyone or making any effort whatsoever, to make them know what's really going on?
IITS Wait, why is Harry giving an encouraging grin to a strange boy? Harry never notices anyone but himself, and if he does he certain doesn't grin in a reassure...oh, I see he's grinning so he can be wounded when the he sees the other kid whispering about him. IITS.
Nut o’ Fun It's not, really, but damn those must be some fragile bedcurtains!
Misdirected Answering
ETA: The Sorting Hat's New Song: No more relevent than Michael Caine's British accent!
Final score: 4
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Date: 2008-01-04 05:10 pm (UTC)Ginger: Slytherin
The Howells, aka the Malfoys of Gilligan's Island: Slytherin
Gilligan and the Skipper(too): Gryffindor
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Date: 2008-01-04 05:18 pm (UTC)Ron would have forgotten all about their existence and went to sleep without leading them to the Tower or explaining anything to them. As described by the author the guy is lazy, whiny, prejudiced, can't care less about anybody outside his little circle, is eternally overshadowed by his friends and is a bit of a bully. Yes, I would have dearly loved him to be something else, something more. But that's the way he has been written. Annoying as Hermione is, at least she tries with the younger kids - tries to explain stuff to them tries to defend them. Ron is keen for the trappings and power of prefectship, but isn't willing to actually do the work.
In "dog eats dog" environment of Hogwarts somebody has to look out for the little kids who aren't the Chosen One and friends. Ridicule and lack of anknoweldgement that Percy got for conscientuously doing the job never ceased to incense me.
Re: Seamus extravaganza. It is amazing how in order to be good one has to believe Harry's/DD's unsupported word without question. Those who actually want some facts to base their judgement on are clearly unworthy and either may exonerate themselves by crawling back to those luminaries or end up at the dungheap of history.
To be honest, one has to wonder why in all that supposed smear campaign nobody accused Harry of murdering Cedric. He had the means, the motive, the opportunity and some of his previous exploits hinted at propensity towards violence. Oh, but it would have been far too plausible and difficult to refute, we can't have that.
"Dean defends himself with the fact that his parents are muggles and he's "not stupid enough" to tell them about deaths at school"
Another example of sterling tretment of Muggles by the supposedly "good" wizards. Really, there was a much better story in the issues of Muggleborn and people with Muggle family members and their struggle to survive between two worlds. All neglected for yet another prophesized saviour bore-fest.
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Date: 2008-01-04 06:03 pm (UTC)Those who actually want some facts to base their judgement on are clearly unworthy and either may exonerate themselves by crawling back to those luminaries or end up at the dungheap of history.
It's really crazy to me how badly people seem to be judged for trying to get the facts when they weren't there themselves. ITA about Cedric--how come Harry is accused of killing Dumbledore but not Cedric? How on earth does anyone think he died if Voldemort didn't kill him and there are no marks from the animals in the maze?
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Date: 2008-01-04 06:14 pm (UTC)Ginny has FRIENDS. FRIENDS, I tell you! Even though we never actually meet them or learn their names and they disappear after this book.
*Ron and Hermione bicker and then spend the night sitting in huffed silence, like a bitter, middle-aged couple. Cute. Not.
You're a woman, don't you know what this is like? It's TRUE LOVE!
*Dean defends himself with the fact that his parents are muggles and he's "not stupid enough" to tell them about deaths at school (good for you, Dean--we all know telling your parents would be traitorous).
Dean realized how medieval his parents were after Hogwarts showed him the real world. The real world in which people still write with quill pens. Ballpoint pens...gel ink pens, now that is backwards living.
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Date: 2008-01-04 07:18 pm (UTC)I mean, I'm not giving him a pass--I think he's a bad Prefect in his own way--and by that I mean we never see him actually doing the job of Prefect ever. So he's a bad Prefect in the same way Lupin is. But at the end of the book we even find that he was only picked because Dumbledore couldn't pick Harry (as if he's such a great choice)--why pick Ron instead? I used to say why not Dean since I thought Neville was still too timid, but it turns out that no, Neville really is the one with actual leadership abilities and the timidness was like baby fat. I know this book is probably seen as where he got over it, but still, it seems like Neville obviously grew up into a far more natural leader than Ron, and if Dumbledore likes to hand out the position to people who are supposed to benefit from it why does he seem to pick the wrong one?
Because with Neville you've got somebody who's obviously got all the right instincts but isn't quite so sure of himself--the authority given by his badge would help him out. With Ron you've got somebody who actually never expressed any interest in being Prefect. He has little bursts where he covets glory but for the most part lives his life happily as a beta dog. He likes the distinction of the badge but he's mortified at having to assert this kind of authority even before he gets to school.
So while I didn't see this at the time, Dumbledore's choice here is beginning to seem more and more ridiculous, like he literally only chose Ron because he was the closest thing to Harry he could think of, leaving somebody like Neville or Dean to just show themselves better leaders in their everyday lives.
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Date: 2008-01-04 07:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-04 08:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-04 09:00 pm (UTC)Suddenly possible book 8?
Please tell me this is a joke.
- Dan Hemmens
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Date: 2008-01-04 09:05 pm (UTC)But Dean or Neville would have been better choices as Prefect than Ron, since they do seem more responsible and better leaders.
The really smart move would have been to appoint Ron as captain in Sixth Year, instead of Harry. Harry has NO leadership abilities. Except for the first few years, when the team had no back-up Seeker, the Gryffindor team did better when Harry was absent from the games than when he was there.
Also, Harry's management style was--while inventive--pretty darn poor. The morale of the team seemed to hang by a thread all year. Oliver Wood might have bored the team with his strategies and pep talks, but he got them pumped for the games. Harry barely showed up.
Can you imagine what a horror Harry would have been as a Prefect? He probably would have gone around kicking at first years who were out of line, or who looked at him sideways. He would have spent that whole first Prefect meeting (on the train) interrupting the Head Boy/Girl to ask, "Why isn't Dumbledore telling us this? Where is he? Doesn't he care?" I could see him randomly deducting points from Slytherin students to make up for Draco's deducting points from him, leading to an all-out points race for the bottom.
Plus, you know, the role of a Prefect is to enforce authority--and Harry fought with every single authority figure in OotP.
Actually, that would be a really funny AU fic.
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Date: 2008-01-04 09:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-04 09:21 pm (UTC)Well, I was under impression that prefectship is something earned in some way, not just an educational opportunity handed to those who might profit from it. So, yes, Neville may have subsequently developed into a leader - of whom we have mostly heard second-hand BTW, so he may turn out to be yet another hot-air balloon (like the Potters Sr., their bosom friends the Marauders and both iterations of OoTP) if Rowling ever provides details of his activities. But even if he was genuine in DH, at the time of OoTP he wasn't ready and didn't deserve it - bad grades, timidity issues, etc. So yes, it should have been Dean IMHO.
And really, given that prefects are all that they have to ensure everyday discipline and security in the dormitories and ought to be first place to turn to for young kids with problems, somebody like Ron or Harry would be a total disaster. "Laid-back" or not.
It must have been a surreal experience to be Gryffindor year-mates with the trio. One literally couldn't win. At anything. Whenever you came close, the rules would be changed, just to accommodate the trio and you'd be as far behind as ever. Frankly, I expected at least one of them to turn to Voldy as a reaction to such blatant injustice and favoritism and out of need to display their courage where it would be appreciated, but that would be too realistic for Rowling, I guess.
It was a bit better for other (second-rate in JKR's view) Houses - of course they would lose against Gryffindors every time, but at least they could achieve things within their own ranks.
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Date: 2008-01-04 09:29 pm (UTC)I think I can parse this scene now. What Luna says is accurate, but she doesn't understand that a teacher should be judged on his heart rather than his lack of teaching ability. This isn't up for debate, naturally. Luna's such a Ravenclaw with her "reasoning" and "difference of opinion".
*I think he was pretty open to Harry's side before Harry yelled at him--presumably when Harry was an asshole Seamus suddenly felt a "rush of affection" for his mother, and so declared Harry was mad just like the paper said.
Yep, the rot of thinking for yourself and suspending judgment is spreading all right. The Gryffindor Care Bear Stare, with "care" in the sense of "threat of immediate bodily harm", will get a lot of workout in this book.
Honestly, how dare Seamus ask to hear Harry's version? When the government, the media and your mother tell you one thing and Harry tells you nothing at all, of course you side with the stuck-up git who hasn't said five words to you since you were Sorted together and probably couldn't spell your name.
*"We believe Harry" btw. It's not an individual thing, it's families that have different beliefs.
The Old Testament touch. In this society children really are extensions of their parents rather than individuals. I suppose if I wanted to cut Arthur some slack (which, not really), Percy's rebellion must have seemed a bit like that Clive Barker short where people's limbs decide they've had it with being attached to their bodies.
-L
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Date: 2008-01-04 10:25 pm (UTC)Oh, but of course one of the *themes* of this whole shebang Rowling tells us is an argument for tolernace and an exhortation to always "question authority".
What books did she write that in? It doesn't seem to be the ones that got published.
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Date: 2008-01-04 10:32 pm (UTC)Dean would have been a good solid choice. But that would have given Gryffindor two presumably Muggle-born Prefects, and I really do suspect that may havfe had something to do with why he didn't get it. Albus isn't nearly as politically naieve as he pretends to be.
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Date: 2008-01-04 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-04 10:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-04 10:59 pm (UTC)Let's just forget that a lot of parchment traditionally uses animal skins like sheep, calves and goats.
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Date: 2008-01-05 12:29 am (UTC)Except Zacharias (another Hufflepuff) and Cho (hosepipe!).
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Date: 2008-01-05 12:33 am (UTC)...or Ron got it because of his connections. Dumbledore makes Mrs Weasley all the more grateful. Plus, Harry's friend!!1!
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Date: 2008-01-05 12:45 am (UTC)(But your second suggestion, about the connections, is really the right one, of course. Like
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Date: 2008-01-05 01:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-05 01:39 am (UTC)The logical question, of course, is how this is supposed to work as a general rule--how do you know you're one of the tiny elite whose judgment is to be followed? You don't. And the book doesn't even provide any thoughts on how you could really know.
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Date: 2008-01-05 01:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-05 02:19 am (UTC)Oh, but don't you see? He did work with him! Totally! He SAVED HIS LIFE! ;-)
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Date: 2008-01-05 03:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-05 04:12 am (UTC)A halfblood would have been possible, (i.e., Lily & Remus back in the day) but I doubt that he'd have appointed another Muggleborn. He really doesn't overlook that kind of thing, even though Rowling seems to. And if he still wants to suck up to Harry, (even though he won't even look the kid in the eye this year) that really didn't give him a lot of wiggle room at all.
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Date: 2008-01-05 04:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-05 07:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-05 12:08 pm (UTC)You're good-looking, slim, sporty, or in Gryffindor, of course!
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Date: 2008-01-05 12:52 pm (UTC)I think the problem is that JK Rowling defines "authority" as essentially meaning "the government". Her whole attitude to society is so juvenile and middle class it's almost endearing. The idea that people like Dumbledore, Harry, and all the other people whose word we are expected to obey without question might also constitute "authority figures" never occurs to her. To her mind the Ministry of Magic are "authority" and Harry "questions authority" by blindly following Dumbledore.
-- Dan Hemmens
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Date: 2008-01-05 06:54 pm (UTC)Of course, skinning animals is definitely more environmentally friendly. Those wizards...they know all the superior ways.
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Date: 2008-01-06 12:25 am (UTC)And she certainly didn't introduce them to the DA...
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Date: 2008-01-06 12:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-06 01:15 am (UTC)Some of them might have been interested in Harry and she certainly couldn't risk that happening.
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Date: 2008-01-06 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-06 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-07 03:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-07 11:47 pm (UTC)Which makes Ron's appointment as prefect all the more puzzling. He's certainly not extraordinary academically or otherwise. However, of the Trio, Ron is probably the most approachable member and the least insular, which is not something that can be said for Harry. Since Prefects are effectively student representatives, it makes sense that you'd pick someone that other students can relate to, rather than someone like Harry, who tends to be in their own little world. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Prefect Ron was one of Dumbledore little manipulations to divide Ron and Harry, and to push Harry to work harder out of jealousy
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Date: 2008-01-09 04:21 am (UTC)A pity so few fans seem to have picked up on that. Although I think Neville may have said something in passing (not much, though. even Rowling seems a bit unclear on just how tough Luna is).
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Date: 2008-01-09 10:00 am (UTC)Oh, I totally agree with this comment, Harry doesn't seem to ever think that maybe, just maybe, that there are some people who want a real reason to believe him rather than just worship the ground he walks on and the saliva he spits in their path.
But the real reason I'm responding is because all I can think of when you made your comment about Harry not being able to spell Seamus's name is Harry at some spelling bee (yeah, I know it's a contest requiring some form of brain power but let us suspend disbelief for a few seconds here ;D) losing the contest for trying to spell Seamus as S-H-A-Y-M-U-Z or something daft like that. XD
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Date: 2008-01-09 06:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-09 06:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-09 07:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-11 09:48 am (UTC)-- Dan Hemmens