Deathly Hallows Chapter 16

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Hi. I'm traveling again and snuck into the library to post this. I'll be around on Friday or Saturday to reply to comments!


Godric's Hollow

Oh dread! Oh horror! The light of my eyes, my bonny Ron, has gone and I am left, alone, bereft, in an Harmonian nightmare!

Harry shares my horror at this development as he wakes up to discover himself alone with Hermione. He ought to take some solace in the fact that Hermione is too heartbroken to speak and has finally stopped nagging everyone.

But, every time that Harry begins to despair, he thinks about Ron saying, “We thought you knew what you were doing,” and the depression is replaced with hard, knotted rage. The loving, compassionate type of hard, knotted rage.

Harry and Hermione Apparate to a windswept, heather-covered hillside. So, they’ve decided to take a short vacation from the book as well. But instead of going to Shell Cottage, they’re taking their holiday in Wuthering Heights.

Hermione immediately breaks down into silent sobs which Emma Watson will glory in as an actress. Harry, pausing for another shot of corrosive hatred at the memory of Ron’s face, is spurred into casting the protective spells for once in his lazy-ass career. Frankly, if Ron leaving has caused Harry to take a bit of the responsibility off Hermione, then it was well worth it.

They don’t discuss Ron, but that doesn’t stop Harry from obsessing about him. It’s kind of amazing how Harry obsesses over people who have angered him. He never obsesses over people who supposedly attract him, like Cho or Ginny. The most that happens with them is that he occasionally remembers they exist.

Anyway, Harry’s obsession with Ron takes the form of pulling out the Marauder’s Map to see the moment when Ron’s dot shows up and he can start sending hate rays to it with his eyes.

First off—what makes Harry think that Ron would actually go back to Hogwarts? He’s a known associate of Undesirable Number One. Nobody’s going to let Ron just waltz back into Hogwarts. The best case scenario has Ron cooling his heels in a Ministry interrogation room. The worst case has him doing that in Azkaban.

Secondly, it’s only after several days that Harry remembers that the love of his life, Ginny, is at Hogwarts and he starts watching her dot. Not that her dot is doing anything interesting. It would be funny if her dot was running around with various other male dots. That would be more in her character, wouldn’t it? But she just seems to be sleeping in her dorm all the time. He never even notices her in planning sessions with Neville and Luna.

Of course, Harry can only watch the Ginny dot at night. During the day, he and Hermione are too busy racking their brains to think where Dumbledore might have hid the real sword. You know where I would have started looking? The Order headquarters. You know, old Grimauld Place, which has been empty so long that probably the only Death Eater left guarding it is Stan Shunpike.

Thinking back, Harry realizes he never heard Dumbledore even mention a place he might hide something…. And Harry is back to obsessing over Dumbledore.

Harry hits a new low point as he realizes their whole quest has been pointless and meandering. Okay, story-wise it’s perfectly acceptable for your hero to reach a low point and to wonder if his quest is worth the trouble, etc. etc. But.. doesn’t that usually happen at a point in the middle of the quest? This quest still feels like it hasn’t even started. I know we had a big raid on the Ministry and all, but that was sort of going from -1 to 0, bringing us to the point of the quest we should have been at the end of HBP.

It’s not just that camping is boring. It’s not just that Dumbledore didn’t give Harry any clues about where those Horcruxes were—or what to do once Harry found them. Dumbledore actually set Harry off in the completely wrong direction. The way to find them isn’t to look in Voldemort’s psyche, the way to find them is to look at Voldemort’s followers and the structure of the Death Eater organization.

And guess who’s ideally situated to do that? Geez, Dumbledore, you really screwed up by asking Snape to kill you. It would have been smarter to invite Lupin over for tea during the full moon. Then Harry would have obsessively hated Lupin for killing you, which wouldn’t have made a bit of difference since Harry’s not letting Lupin play on his quest anyway. And maybe Harry wouldn’t be so adamantly anti-Snape.

Next best thing though. Harry becomes such bad company that Hermione starts pulling Phineas Nigellus out of her bag to talk to. From him, they learn that Snape is facing low levels of insurrection from the students. I think we know all know what that means: Random pranks. Would Snape even notice a difference after all the pranks he endured from the Trio?

Phineas Nigellus drops a few more anvils about Snape protecting Ginny (by banning her from Hogsmeade) and encouraging the underground opposition (by banning unofficial school clubs). He also asks leading questions, trying to find out where Harry and Hermione are… because Snape is probably going nuts from Dumbledore pressuring him to get Harry the sword.

Harry and Hemione keep moving around, because it’s dangerous to stay in one spot. They consider the South of England to be the most dangerous and end up moving around the frozen Northern regions. I say they ought to ditch England altogether since there’s no way to locate the stupid Horcruxes and go looking in Spain or Italy. It makes as much sense as what they are doing.

(Even more sensible would be to go to Albania—where Voldemort spent a lot of time and which would probably be lovely at this time of year.)

Harry finally broaches the idea of visiting Godric’s Hollow. Partly because he’s been wanting to visit his parents’ graves since the end of HBP. But mostly because Bathilda Bagshot lives there and she might be able to tell him about Dumbledore.

As usual, Hermione is way ahead of Harry. She figures Dumbledore might have hid the sword there because, duh, it was where Godric Gryffindor (Godric’s Hollow, geddit?) lived. Harry steps into Ron’s shoes by being too dumb to figure this out by himself.

But, Harry does have some handy information about the mysterious symbol that Hermione found inked into the Beedle Bard book. He mentions that Krum told him that it was Grindlewald’s mark.

Again, why is it that nobody in the Wizarding World knows about Grindlewald’s famous icon? It seems like the more famous someone is in the WW, the less anybody knows about them. I’ll bet that once Harry destroyed Voldemort and became Head Auror and was basically more famous than Jesus, nobody could figure out why he signed his name with a little lightning bolt on the Y.

Heh. Even Harry thinks it’s weird that Scrimgeour didn’t recognize Grindlewald’s mark in the book. Once again, the characters are commenting on the lack of common sense or logic in the story.

In reading about Godric’s Hollow (where the Muggles are tolerant and sometimes Confunded), Hermione mentions that A History of Magic doesn’t cover any of the events of the twentieth century. Which explains, I suppose, why nobody in Harry’s generation knows anything about Grindewald or Voldemort, other than that they are big and scary.

(Didn’t Hermione mention in PS/SS that she had read about Harry? Someone must have been writing about recent history.)

Like the raid on the Ministry, the visit cannot take place without extensive planning. This time it includes practice Apparating under the Invisibility Cloak and stealing hairs from middle-aged Muggles. Gee, Hermione, did you slip them a few coins to compensate for their lost DNA?

Harry transforms into a “balding middle-age Muggle man.” Two things I note: 1) It seems even crueler than usual to steal hairs from a man who has few of them left and 2) even the narrator makes a distinction between man and Muggle man. I guess we Muggles aren’t fully human. We’re more like apes who shave.

They land near the village and Hermione points out that their carefully laid plan is, once again, ruined by their lack of troubleshooting skills. There’s no point in having an Invisibility Cloak if the village is blanketed in snow and you’re leaving footprints.

There’s also no point in wearing an Invisibility Cloak when you’re polyjuiced to look like random Muggles and having an Invisibility Cloak on would tend to peg you as Harry Potter—known for owning a rare and expensive one.

Oh God. Now we come to the moment of the book that I’ve tried to repress through sheer horror. The Memorial. As Harry and Hermione pass by a war memorial, it transforms into a statue of James, Lily, and baby Harry.

I distract myself by noting that the statues have little caps of fluffy white snow on them. Now… how does that work, exactly? Is the Potter family the real statues that are charmed to look like an obelisk listing names of the WWII dead? Or is that list of names the real statue which is charmed to give an image of the Potters? I mean, how can the snow fall on both?

Oh and did I mention that it’s Christmas Eve? I hate this chapter.

Hmmm. Something I never noticed before. The graveyard is behind a church, and the church is filled with a caroling congregation. So, Harry and Hermione aren’t exactly alone in this touching scene. And, since they are leaving deep trenches in the snow, the church goers would know that someone was poking around the graveyard.

Since Godric’s Hollow is a mixed community, I suppose their caution is warranted. It could easily get back to Voldemort that a couple went looking around at graves. But that wouldn’t tell Voldemort much, since the visit is a one-time thing.

Which leads to an idea. What Harry and Hermione (and Ron) ought to have done was to blatantly show up in a lot of places. If Voldemort had to place Death Eater guards at every place they appeared, his forces would become too scattered to be effective. That’s what Robin Hood would have done.

But then, Robin Hood was smart..

They discover Ariana and Kendra’s graves, with the phrase Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also written on them. I’ll just note that Albus Dumbledore’s treasures seem to be elsewhere, since he decided to be buried at Hogwarts.

The quote is from Matthew 6:17-24. This is the full text: Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

I think we could parse that passage pretty good for insights into Potter Philosophy. Horcruxes are the ultimate in putting your treasure on earth, aren’t they? And we have that breakdown into light and dark magic spelled out. If your eyes are light, then you are good. If they are dark, then you are dark. (Who has light eyes? Dumbledore and Harry. Who has dark eyes? Snape. Who has demonic eyes? Voldemort.)

And, of course, the man who cannot serve two masters is obviously Snape. The most interesting question throughout the entire series is which master it was that he truly served. (The one who manipulated him the most!)

After more grave searching, Hermione discovers the grave of Ignotus Peverell, with Grindlewald’s mark on it. About a page is devoted to this discovery, although it seems meaningless at the time.

You know what’s weird about this graveyard? The first grave they found was an Abbott (ancestor of Hannah Abbott?), then they found the Dumbledores, and then the Peverells. This graveyard is laid out alphabetically!

Finally, Hermione discovers James and Lily’s headstone. Fans rejoice as we get actual birthdates for both of them.

We also get the quote: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Which is from Corinthians and concerns the resurrection of man through the sacrifice of Christ. Which strikes me as a pretty pretentious thing to put on any tomb—especially the parents of a baby who is already viewed by the world as its savior.


Harry immediately fears that his parents were some kind of Death Eaters, so Hermione has to explain to him the concept of life after death. This brings on an extreme moment of angst for Harry as he imagines his parents as dead to the bones.

I don’t want to snark on this, because I’m sure it’s genuine and heartfelt—but I’m afraid it’s not a feeling I really relate to. I’m sure this grief has been repressed in Harry for sixteen years and, while it’s good that he gets it out, it leaves me a bit cold.

So, I’ll note the final passage in this chapter is probably moving to most people who read it and leave it at that.

Except to say that I wish she hadn’t put Harry, Hermione, and a kissing gate in the same sentence.

Fan Service:
JKR makes it up to Harmonian fans by giving them this touching graveyard scene without Ron around to ruin it by acting normal.
OMIGOD! James was an Aries! Lily was an Aquarius! How groovy!

Fan Slappage:
Actually, Harry and Hermione are pretty dull together.
There are no important artifacts, messages, or mementos to be found in the Potter Crypt.

DVD Extras:
EXT: NIGHT – ABOVE AN ISOLATED SEASIDE COTTAGE

As a chorus of ANGELIC VOICES SINGS A CAROL, the camera swoops down like a bird to pass by one of the cottage’s lighted windows. Through the window we see Ron looking out into the night, the Deluminator in his hand.

Behind him, Bill and Fleur are opening Christmas presents.

The camera swoops away and up, into the starry night, as Ron follows it soulfully.

It passes through the air and swoops down again, on a suburban house with a pond in the backyard. Through the window, we see Lupin and Tonks, with Andromeda sitting before a fireplace draped with Christmas stockings. Tonks, holding onto Lupin’s hand, is four or five months pregnant. She looks radiant.

Lupin looks around, his eyes lighting on a photograph of Sirius. He sighs longingly.

The camera swoops away again into the night and flies by the headmaster’s office in Hogwarts. The window is slightly open and it flies into:

INT: NIGHT – HEADMASTER’S OFFICE

Snape sits with a glass of elf-made wine, his head resting on one hand as he gazes at the dust-covered half-photograph of Lily. Behind him, the portrait of Albus Dumbledore paces.

DUMBLEDORE
But where are they?

SNAPE
Don’t know.

DUMBLEDORE
What are they up to?

SNAPE
Don’t care.

DUMBLEDORE
They need the sword!

SNAPE
Shut up.

He starts rubbing his temples as the camera swoops away again, flying through the air towards

EXT: NIGHT --THE BURROW

We see the Weasleys festively throwing parsnips at each other around the table.

Then the camera swoops down to a London office, where Percy is working late into the night.

It flies off and heads toward Malfoy Manor. Although the Manor is decorated with the appropriate festivity, Lucius and Narcissa, as glimpsed through the large leaded windows, appear subdued. The other Death Eaters are carousing and dancing, with Bellatrix leading the group.

In the corner, Lord Voldemort sits quietly, his eyes far away and one hand gesturing as if to pet an absent giant snake.

The camera flies away one final time into the sky, heading towards a star that appears brighter than all the others.

As it draws closer over the tree-lined landscape, we see that, directly below this bright star is a lonely tent, pitched by itself atop a snowy hill.

The CHORUS OF VOICES SWELLS as we

FADE OUT

Comments

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Frankly, if Ron leaving has caused Harry to take a bit of the responsibility off Hermione, then it was well worth it.

So, many thousands of pages into the Potter saga, the hero finally does something. Yay?

You know, old Grimauld Place, which has been empty so long that probably the only Death Eater left guarding it is Stan Shunpike.

Given that Stan didn't die during the Flight of the Bumbling Potters.

It would have been smarter to invite Lupin over for tea during the full moon.

And Harry, while still hating Lupin for accepting the invitation, could contemplate the amazing stupidity that was Dumbledore inviting Lupin on such a Night of Nights. Maybe the idea that hey, DD wanted to die, might have slipped into Harry's subconscious. He must have a subconscious, right?

Harry becomes such bad company that Hermione starts pulling Phineas Nigellus out of her bag to talk to.

Hermellus? Phinione?

Harry steps into Ron’s shoes by being too dumb to figure this out by himself.

Maybe it's some aura that Hermione unconsciously casts around her to make her look even smarter than she thinks she already is.

(where the Muggles are tolerant and sometimes Confunded)

Is there a difference in this world?

The Memorial.

Does Our Hero need any more ego stroking?

This graveyard is laid out alphabetically!

Which means it's a magical graveyard rather than a mixed magical/Muggle graveyard or a solely Muggle graveyard. Muggles would expect all graves to be inserted into either family plots or by time of death and if wizards started alphabetizing the graves, they'd have to explain or confund a heck of a lot. A wholly magical population using the graveyard, though, wouldn't think it was odd, merely a convenience for visitors to more readily find the grave they're looking for.

Which strikes me as a pretty pretentious thing to put on any tomb—especially the parents of a baby who is already viewed by the world as its savior.

It's pretty pretentious for an author to so blatantly identify her hero as a Christ-figure (or Christ-like figure) when he hasn't done anything Christ-like yet. He hasn't even sat around talking philosophy with the learned men of his time yet, something Jesus did at the age of twelve. Following Dumbledore to a sea cave isn't the same thing.

SNAPE
Shut up.

Something that needed to be said to Dumbledore much more often in life. Loved the DVD Extra as always.

Cheese. I feel like I ought to wish you a Merry Christmas.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

--- “Hermione immediately breaks down into silent sobs which Emma Watson will glory in as an actress.”

That was Emmione’s reaction in about every third scene in GoF. What with the eyebrows, breathing problems, strange, drawn out pauses and sensationally insincere crying/laughing, DH the films will be painful. I can’t believe JKR ended up writing her character according to the interpretation of Hollywood and the least talented member of the entire child cast – and I’m including Bonnie Wright in that.

Harry and Hermione are as dry and dull as sand together – they never seemed to have real fun together at the best of times (none of which are in this book, that’s for sure). Hermione, usually relentlessly confident in her intellectual abilities, always had to act scared/unsure with Harry, so as not to upstage him. It really p*ssed me off, girls shouldn't have to act weak around boys. She wasn’t even consciously doing it to build him up; JKR was just messing with her character depending on the plot.

This scene just seemed forced. Why JKR couldn’t stick to her guns, rather than blindly follow the WB herd I’ll never know. I’m not a shipper of any description, but she did *try* to build up Ron and Hermione over the series. (I’d rather not talk about the mess that was Harry and Ginny) Maybe some of the H/H ship was inspired by the films, as Radcliffe and Watson used to have lots of chemistry together. Even that faded in the last film, leaving only poor acting in its place.

--- “It would be funny if her dot was running around with various other male dots.”

Once she’d known ‘The Potter’ no other man would do!

Why am I so sure that he’d be rubbish in bed? He is so easily distracted, completely self-absorbed and *always* jumps the gun in real life. Neville would at least be considerate and put her first. Seamus might be a player, but he’d be a lot of fun. And they’re *there*, not sitting in a tent many miles away achieving sod all. I agree, I wish Harry had seen all three dots in some out of the way broom cupboard....

--- “From him, they learn that Snape is facing low levels of insurrection from the students.”

I’m not a total ‘Show, don’t tell’ Nazi, but it was downright cruel for JKR to constantly hint of interesting things happening elsewhere in her story. We could actually have rooted for the alternative Trio, not just be submerged in a sea of ‘meh’ whilst stuck for eons with the two most unlikeable and unrealistic characters in the book. More awful than Voldemort, Bellatrix and Pettigrew rolled into one – at least we’re *supposed* to dislike them.

--- “This time it includes practice Apparating under the Invisibility Cloak and stealing hairs from middle-aged Muggles.”

Leaving aside all your excellent arguments about their foolish plan, why polyjuice? Why not save their meagre rations for a time when they might need to look like someone in particular and just glamour themselves now? In fact, why aren’t they worried when Bathilda seems to recognise ‘Harry’? *We* know that she probably recognises his smell, what do they think? I genuinely can’t remember what happened – no doubt it will be covered next week!

--- “As Harry and Hermione pass by a war memorial, it transforms into a statue of James, Lily, and baby Harry.”

My arse. If we were aware of other similar memorials, I wouldn’t mind this so much. If this is the only one, it’s unbearable - JKR won’t stop with the tiresome (and never proven) ‘Harry is special’ theme. I mean he is, but not in the way, she wants us to think.

--- “I don’t want to snark on this, because I’m sure it’s genuine and heartfelt”

It doesn’t bother me! Seriously though, losing a parent is awful, so it’s automatic to sympathize, but Harry is truly unlikeable by this stage. I don’t care about him, I don’t care about his hard as nails friend, I don’t care about his spoilt rich-boy jerk of a father, or his unfeasibly perfect goddess of a mother. Therefore this scene made me feel exactly 0% emotion. Bring on the snake!


Love the extras as usual – especially Voldemort missing Nagini! Also, nice try at the ‘Harry the Messiah’ reference, but you’re held back by the fact that you’re tongue in cheek. You lack the belief that it’s actually true that comes through loud and clear from JKR!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

God, Harry totally does obsess over people who have angered him.

What's great is that Ron left saying he thought they knew what he was doing. He spends his time stewing over that instead of, you know, considering a plan.

Of course Harry would think Ron went back to school. When it comes down to it they know this is all just an elaborate field trip.

The problem with Harry thinking his quest is pointless and meandering is that he's right, and the reader has already been thinking that for many pages. In fact, Ron already walked out on account of it. Repeating it just makes it more pointless. As you point out, the quest hasn't gone wrong here, it hasn't even started.

Seriously, there is no reason they can't just go to Nice and hang out. I don't even buy that it's dangerous for them to stay in one place. Why would it be any more dangerous? It's not like Voldemort's zeroing in on them. They could be in just as much danger by randomly apparating into a spot where DEs already are.

Only in this book would a sword be hidden in a place just because it has the same first name as the name of the guy who owned the sword. You'd think Voldemort would have found it there if that was the case.

I hope JKR doesn't think that having the characters comment on the unlikeliness of Scrimgeor not knowing that mark explains it away.

Harry could still be in history books because I'm sure his prophecies were important enough to be known centuries ago. Remember how Firenze says the stars only show the most important events of the universe and that includes Harry.

LOL! on the cloak and Polyjuice cancelling each other out.

Nice to think the people who died in WWI had their statues co-opted for a statue to Harry Potter who hadn't done anything.

The Peverell grave seems to mean nothing, but it turns out to be really important, because it reminds us that Harry's blood makes him worthy.

Snape's 'shut up' was my favorite scene.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, Harry has a subconcious. It's filled entirely with baby/toddler memories to pop out for dramatic, angsty public visions and his gay love for Draco Malfoy and Tom Riddle.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Nice to think the people who died in WWI had their statues co-opted for a statue to Harry Potter who hadn't done anything.

It's just the WW's way of saying that Muggles don't matter, no way, no how.

[lissa2.livejournal.com]

"What makes Harry think that Ron would actually go back to Hogwarts?"
Er...James and Lily were really brother and sister? I have no idea why he would think that. And it never even crosses his mind that the death eaters who run Hogwarts will torture Ron to get information on him, WTF???

"He never even notices her in planning sessions with Neville and Luna"
Nor is he concerned with the well being of Neville and Luna or any other student or teacher at Hogwarts that isn't Ginny. He's too busy being filled with love.

"Again why is it that nobody in the WW knows about Grindlewald's famous icon?
The fact that non of the party guests at Harry's birthy party had noticed the symbol when they examined the book is a stretch, but the fact that nobody in the ministry could identify the symbol is beyond ludicrous.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of them *did* notice it and rightfully identified it as the symbol of those idiot "Hallows Questers". I gather that is a group that's been around for a loooooog time in the ww. I suspect the status slots in somewhere between 'impractical dreamers' and 'nut cult'.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

It’s not just that camping is boring. It’s not just that Dumbledore didn’t give Harry any clues about where those Horcruxes were—or what to do once Harry found them. Dumbledore actually set Harry off in the completely wrong direction. The way to find them isn’t to look in Voldemort’s psyche, the way to find them is to look at Voldemort’s followers and the structure of the Death Eater organization.
This paragraph suddenly made me think of "The floating admiral" - a fun exercise in writing a detective novel undertaken by a bunch of authors (Christie, Sayers, Chesterton, Wade, among others) where each wrote one chapter without knowing what those before him had in mind when writing theirs, while still trying to come up with solutions that accounted for everything that had happened up to that point. Not surprisingly, the story gets more and more involved, the characters acting more and more OC to meet those requirements... At this point, DH feels much the same but without a similar reason behind it. There is no conceivable way to account for the main characters doing what, how and when they do it.

I think we know all know what that means: Random pranks.
Not quite. It means money for WWW. Wonder if that'd make them war-profiteers?

I seek solace for the abominable Holy Family of St. Potter by pointing out that James's alter ego St. Joseph is not supposed to have been Jesus' father - so ...

*continues to be childish*:
Who has light eyes? Dumbledore and Harry. And the Malfoys.
Who has dark eyes? Snape. And Ginny.

Fans rejoice as we get actual birthdates for both of them.
Feminists rejoice even more to learn that Lily obviously was born a Potter as there is no mention of her ever having had another name or having been anything else but Potter's wife.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I seek solace for the abominable Holy Family of St. Potter by pointing out that James's alter ego St. Joseph is not supposed to have been Jesus' father - so ...

Ah, but that's subverted by the fact that St. Joseph was able to get his family away from the slaughter of the innocents while James couldn't be bothered to bring his wand to the door. You see? Huge difference. No plaster saints. ;)

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Harry, pausing for another shot of corrosive hatred at the memory of Ron’s face, is spurred into casting the protective spells for once in his lazy-ass career. Frankly, if Ron leaving has caused Harry to take a bit of the responsibility off Hermione, then it was well worth it.

A one-off, I suspect. Harry's strongest magic, or the occasions when he takes some initiative, are consistently triggered by his "righteous anger".

The way to find them isn’t to look in Voldemort’s psyche, the way to find them is to look at Voldemort’s followers and the structure of the Death Eater organization.

And guess who’s ideally situated to do that?

Excellent point. But then someone would have had to tell Snape about the Horcruxes, and we know how Dumbledore felt about sharing useful information, especially to his men on the front lines. He could have asked Snape himself while he had the chance, but noo. Need-to-know!

Geez, Dumbledore, you really screwed up by asking Snape to kill you. It would have been smarter to invite Lupin over for tea during the full moon.

But only bad werewolves like Greyback kill people. Meet the new canon, completely contradicting the old canon. Besides, using Snape to kill him is the sort of multipurpose move that Dumbledore loves. It convinces the DEs that Snape is loyal and increases the probability that he'll be made Headmaster. It was supposed to neutralize the Elder Wand. Finally, it pretty much had to be Snape because he's the only one of DD's followers who's a) got the stones to do it and b) is that easily played. Lupin is something of a manipulator himself, besides having a strong instinct for self-preservation. I think he'd have politely told the old bastard where to get off.

Hermione mentions that A History of Magic doesn’t cover any of the events of the twentieth century. Which explains, I suppose, why nobody in Harry’s generation knows anything about Grindewald or Voldemort, other than that they are big and scary.

It also explains why Harry's kids have no idea that he used to be famous. Voldemort was so 1997.

[eir-de-scania.livejournal.com]

American feminists, perhaps. Most Swedish women change their surname when marrying without giving it a secon thought, and it seems to be the same in Britain.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Just had to chime in to say that I still cannot get over how offensive that statue is - and on many, many levels. As was said above, it's as though the sacrifices of all those people in WWI don't matter at all. And Harry as Jesus - ugh!

This is one place where I felt like pitching the book out the window. I kept reading in the vain hope that we'd find out something about Snape, Neville, Luna - Hagrid, even; I don't detest him - and what was going on at the school. No such luck, unfortunately.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Maybe the idea that hey, DD wanted to die, might have slipped into Harry's subconscious. He must have a subconscious, right?

I think he does, because the plot depends on a lot of stuff happening on a subconscious level with Harry for things to make sense at all. We're back to my theory of Harry walking in Snape's shoes in the Ministry. If he isn't subconsciously absorbing that experience and subconsciously adding that to those subtle hints about Snape's loyalty, his desire to watch Snape's memories (and to trust them) is absurd.

Phinione?

Excellent! Why don't more people ship Hermione and Phineas? It's much funner than Snape and Hermione.

Merry Christmas to you, too!

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

...and I’m including Bonnie Wright in that.

Hey! I like Bonnie Wright. For an actress stuck with playing the least consistent character in the series, she's done pretty good. And they make her wear the silliest costumes (that bathrobe, anyone?)

And considering that they had to cast her when she was practically an infant, they lucked out. She's grown up reasonably pretty and she never overacts, which is a blessing.

It really p*ssed me off, girls shouldn't have to act weak around boys. She wasn’t even consciously doing it to build him up; JKR was just messing with her character depending on the plot.

The early Hermione tended to freak out in a crisis, and there was an insecurity about her. Which made sense when she was 11 and nobody liked her. But, you'd think she'd have grown out of that. The only logical explanation for the way she cowers before Harry is that he is really scary when he gets mad.

And the narrator just never notices that.

I’m not a shipper of any description, but she did *try* to build up Ron and Hermione over the series. (I’d rather not talk about the mess that was Harry and Ginny) Maybe some of the H/H ship was inspired by the films, as Radcliffe and Watson used to have lots of chemistry together. Even that faded in the last film, leaving only poor acting in its place.

Yes. I came along to the fandom just before HBP was released, and I was astounded to find that there was even a question about H/R. It seemed totally obvious to me at the time.

I stumbled into the Draco Trilogy (by Cassandra Claire) at about the same time and found it charming, but confusing because the characters seemed nothing like the ones in JKR's books. Especially the whole Harry/Hermione relationship. But it made a lot more sense after I watched the Buffy series. A lot a lot more sense.

It must be hard for the actors to have "chemistry" when they've all been together since they were ten or eleven and must feel like siblings now. I think Radcliffe and Watson are nice together, and it's easier to imagine them dating than Watson and Grint. Radcliffe and Wright? There's nothing there. But I don't really blame her for that.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

The problem with Harry thinking his quest is pointless and meandering is that he's right, and the reader has already been thinking that for many pages. In fact, Ron already walked out on account of it. Repeating it just makes it more pointless. As you point out, the quest hasn't gone wrong here, it hasn't even started.

Right. It doesn't help the reader at all when Harry starts angsting about the pointlessness. The thing was pointless from the beginning. The one hope in all the book that it wasn't going to be pointless was when Lupin asked to go along. Because, you know, he might know something. Just because he's an adult and presumably can remember stuff that happened in the first war, while Harry and the others don't know squat about Voldemort.

They could be in just as much danger by randomly apparating into a spot where DEs already are.

Now, that would make a terrific DvD extra!

Only in this book would a sword be hidden in a place just because it has the same first name as the name of the guy who owned the sword. You'd think Voldemort would have found it there if that was the case.

I don't think Voldemort is even looking for the sword--although I guess he wanted it in Bellatrix's vault. For no discernible reason.

Snape's 'shut up' was my favorite scene.

I have the feeling Snape and Dumbledore have been having that exact same conversation for weeks now...

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I'm totally surprised that JKR didn't have the magi show up.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

And it never even crosses his mind that the death eaters who run Hogwarts will torture Ron to get information on him, WTF???

Right. You'd think they'd want to torture him on general principle.

Nor is he concerned with the well being of Neville and Luna or any other student or teacher at Hogwarts that isn't Ginny. He's too busy being filled with love.

Right. You'd think he might spend some time sending hate-rays to Snape, too.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

It means money for WWW. Wonder if that'd make them war-profiteers?

They already are war profiteers, since they made money selling Draco the tools to help him bring Death Eaters in to wreak havoc on the school.

I seek solace for the abominable Holy Family of St. Potter by pointing out that James's alter ego St. Joseph is not supposed to have been Jesus' father - so ...

Right. But who would want to claim Harry as his son in this book?

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

He could have asked Snape himself while he had the chance, but noo. Need-to-know!

I think the reasoning was that he didn't want to mention the Horcruxes to Snape because Voldemort might discover Dumbledore's interest in the subject. Which makes sense if Dumbledore was overstating Snape's ability to Occlude, or lying about trusting him.

But, what an idiot! Snape could have asked Malfoy and found out what he thought the Dark Lord had entrusted him with. He could have pursued that hint from Bellatrix about having a Horcrux in her possession. He could have investigated Regulus Black's death. And he might have found out if Voldemort had hidden a Horcrux in Hogwarts.

And, maybe he would have tried to kill that blasted snake.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Oh, such a hero is our Dumbles. Safe in his ivory tower he asks other people *coughSnapecough* to infiltrate dangerous, triggerhappy insane people and to sacrifice themselves, al for the 'greater good', but when facing a possible painful death he doesn't care about the 'greater good' and simply demands for someone else *coughSnapecough* to sacrifice himself once again, just so Dumbles own last moments on earth might be more pleasant.

Yeah. Dumbledore certainly is eager to sacrifice his own troops. I've been chuckling to myself lately over the way Dumbledore went to the mat to protest the arrest of Stan Shunpike, when he wouldn't even have talked to Sirius Black before testifying against him.

Not to mention the dozens of teachers he sacrificed to the D.A.D.A. curse.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Just had to chime in to say that I still cannot get over how offensive that statue is - and on many, many levels. As was said above, it's as though the sacrifices of all those people in WWI don't matter at all.

I agree. And, while I understand that people were happy when Voldemort was vaporized, all James and Lily really did was to die--something which hundreds (or thousands) of other wizards and witches did as well.

Which might be okay if the statue was meant to represent the victims of Voldemort. But it seems like it's just there to make the Potters into the Holy Family.

It's like she had to top Harry being "chosen" in HBP. Now he's not just chosen, he's the light of the world.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

But if he was sending hate-rays at Snape that would set him up as being really wrong at the end of the books. This book is preparing us for Harry always being open to Snape having been a double agent all along.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

I think she means, it should have said "Lily Potter, née Evans", not just "Lily Potter".

[eir-de-scania.livejournal.com]

The wizworld is so old-fashioned we should be thankful it doesn't read "James Potter And His Wife".

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Which is just weird, because the previous two books kept amping up the conflict between Harry and Snape.

There's a quote from the Leaky Cauldron interview in 2005 that implied that we'd get some kind of dramatic scene between Snape and Harry in DH. I quote the relevant bit:

MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.
Source (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-1.htm)

So, she seemed to be saying that Harry's relationship to Snape was dramatically important.

But maybe that was all misdirection. When Harry asked Dumbledore if Snape could really be trusted, the important part of the question wasn't whether or not Snape was loyal to Dumbledore. The important part was whether or not Dumbledore was fallible.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

--- I'm actually happy for Hermione to continue to panic in a crisis, it made her less of a Mary Sue! However there's a difference to being scared of a dangerous situation and being scared of your best friend. I just *hate* the whole thing with Hermione frequently cowering when Harry speaks. It's strange that the narrator (aka JKR) can't see it's unhealthy. I've read more than once that her first husband was verbally abusive when the marriage went sour. I hope that that's just a rumour that's been repeated, otherwise how can she describe the relationship between her 'hero' and his female best freind in such a way - as if it's a good thing? She's usually so good at making Harry seem like a good guy and chivalrous too. Ask Professor McGonagall!

--- I actually like Bonnie Wright too - as she seems off screen. She's pretty as well, nice hair, they could be making more of her. However she didn't exactly snatch her moment to shine with both hands. I know that the WB execs, hiding behind the unimpressive Steve Kloves, messed up her character, in this and the previous film, which didn't help.

I've said it before, but I've heard that WB wanted to 1) change Ron for the worst in order to ensure that Harry shone and 2) change Hermione into Hermione Cyrus to attract the 11 year old girls (and to Hell with the rest of the audience) so when the books didn't turn out the way they hoped, Ginny had to be worthy of Harry, without stealing Emma's spotlight and they didn't manage it. So we were treated to the terrible "While you're down there" shoe lace scene and the 'feeding Harry a pie' scene which should have been sweet, but really really wasn't. If they don't 'feel' the emotion, shouldn't they *act* it? It's such a lottery as to who might fancy who in real life, these people are *paid* to convince us of certain things, irrespective of real life. How many romantic co-stars have hated each other off-screen?

I totally agree that she doesn't overact (I did say that Emma 'false' Watson was still the worst actress!) However she was bland and monotone. Rupert Grint, whilst not the second coming of Lawrence Olivier, is still able to wring a decent performance despite the wretched treatment of Ron over the years. If they'd stuck to his original characterization, they could have really built up a good screen version as he's definitely better than Dan or Emma. So whilst the filmmakers are responsible for Ginny's lines and the direction, it should have been possible to create a better performance, even when they're all working against her!

I still think that Dan and Emma's 'spark' has faded somewhat. In the early films, they recited their lines and flirted (a lot more convincing then their acting)just like I presume they did in real life. This was tiresome, as Harry Potter is not a reality show - it should be about portraying the characters, *not* about what the actors might, or might not feel. They should have tried to control the ooc behaviour instead of letting it inform their performance and I don't think their age is any excuse, either. Still, WB definitely encouraged this in order to get even more interest from the fans. It's what studios do. I've never read or seen Twilight, yet I'm still well aware of Cedric and his co-stars endless shenanigans and the very dull 'will they/won't they? It's all the same thing.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Which might be okay if the statue was meant to represent the victims of Voldemort. But it seems like it's just there to make the Potters into the Holy Family.

It might have been okay, too, if other communities had statues to local resistance fighters slain for the Cause. The Potters died in Godrick's Hollow so it would follow that the community would put up something for them - if the WW was already noted for doing so in other cases. It would also make sense that they would tweak other communities' noses with the fact that their community was the one that delivered the Boy Who Lived - if the WW was noted for its attention to history.

Without a coherent context, without other monuments, without the usual social observations of death like, for instance, a memorial service for Sirius, more than just words to students when Cedric died, a little personal reaction over Birtha Jorkins' death, the statue looks out of place, an anomaly meant to set Harry up as Saviour, Baptizer, Healer, Soon-coming King...

To his detriment, he really is the same as he ever was, even in the epilogue - he never grows and changes.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Considering that the next time Harry meets Snape, Snape is going to be bleeding to death on the floor of the Shrieking Shack (I don't count the stupid 7 Potters chase), it sounds to me like she was saying whatever she thought sounded impressive because she felt she had to say *something*, and had her "I planned this all out from the beginning before I started writing it" myth to uphold.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I have to agree that Bonnie Wright didn't seize the moment to shine in HBP. And it's a pity, because I think Kloves tried hard to make up for the practical non-existence of Ginny in previous films.

For which there is no excuse, since we all saw H/G coming since... 2003? When did OotP come out? It was pretty darned obvious that JKR was setting them up in that book. And that gave the filmmakers GoF, and OotP to make Ginny more present/interesting/flirtatious. Yeah, didn't get any of that in those films.

Were the WB pie-finger people hoping against hope for Harmony? Anvils, people! Anvils!

I can well believe that the filmmakers wanted to tone down Ron, because he was far and away the best one in PS/SS. He was less so in CoS because his role was reduced to screaming. And, while I think the acting was really good in PoA (and I love just about everything else about the film), he was made to look much more timid and stupid than book!Ron is.

I don't know why film producers are that stupid, though. It's ridiculous to try and make a supporting character look worse than they are, unless you have pressure from your star. And how much pressure could Dan Radcliffe exert over grown adults, even if he cared? It doesn't really matter who the audiences fall in love with, as long as they keep going.

(I was going to use the massive love-wave for Skander Keynes in the Narnia series, but that's maybe not a good one, since Prince Caspian wasn't such hot box office and he got to do all the cool things in that.)

But in any case, it didn't hurt the Star Wars series one bit that Han Solo was more interesting than Luke Skywalker. Or, for that matter, that Artoo-Deetoo and C-3PO were.

Nor is it likely to hurt the new Star Trek franchise that Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu are already being given more to do than their original counterparts.

Go, secondaries!

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Maybe that was it. It sounded that there was going to be a big scene, but I guess it didn't really have to mean that.

One another note, When Harry Met Severus... would be a terrific title for a Snarry fic. Not that I'm into Snarry. (Snape deserves so much better!)

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I know. I find it bizarre that we have this huge funeral for Dumbledore and yet no one even raises a glass for Sirius. The most he gets is a chat between Harry and Dumbledore in a broom shed. Complete with approving nod from Dumbledore when Harry declares himself over Sirius.


Good boy! Don't get attached to anyone who is alive. That will make your eventual suicide so much easier.

[xerox78.livejournal.com]

I can well believe that the filmmakers wanted to tone down Ron, because he was far and away the best one in PS/SS. He was less so in CoS because his role was reduced to screaming. And, while I think the acting was really good in PoA (and I love just about everything else about the film), he was made to look much more timid and stupid than book!Ron is.

I don't know why film producers are that stupid, though. It's ridiculous to try and make a supporting character look worse than they are, unless you have pressure from your star. And how much pressure could Dan Radcliffe exert over grown adults, even if he cared? It doesn't really matter who the audiences fall in love with, as long as they keep going.

But...but...Rupert's ugly and ginger and stuff! The audience has to want the beautiful ones like Dan and Emma to get married in real life, even if their characters don't!

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! Harry's declaring himself over Sirius - after a matter of weeks! - struck me as so wrong and unhealthy. And I don't even like Sirius much. But, honestly, the poor guy! Harry, he died trying to save your life! He was your godfather! He cared about you! And you can just put his death aside after three weeks, and this is a *good* thing?!

Dumbledore's motives, however, are almost certainly exactly as you describe them.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

I can well believe that the filmmakers wanted to tone down Ron, because he was far and away the best one in PS/SS.

I agree--it was like a steady decline. I'm not sure JKR didn't have something to do with it, either. IIRC she made some comment that she was worried that everyone was afraid she'd kill Ron but not Hermione, and that makes me wonder if she thought H. wasn't popular enough and R. was too much so?

[lissa2.livejournal.com]

"I hope JKR doesn't think that having the characters comment on the unlikeliness of Scrimgeor not knowing that mark explains it away"
That plot hole could have been easily solved if JKR had written that Dumbledore put an enchantment on the book so that only the trio could see the sign of the DH in it.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

that makes me wonder if she thought H. wasn't popular enough and R. was too much so

Hmm, I always heard that comment as JKR saying that apparently people saw Ron as vulnerable, but not Hermione. Which I can agree with, in a way; so much emphasis is laid on Harry's affection for Ron, how Ron is the one friend he'd be really devastated to lose. We don't have moments of Harry feeling strong affection for Hermione, and he doesn't seem to actually enjoy spending time with her when circumstances dictate that he must do so. I suspect the reason for that was mostly JKR trying to discourage H/Hr shippers, but it also means that if people are looking (even subconsciously) for the loss that would cause most Drama for Harry, Ron is it and Hermione's not.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Yes, she was talking about vulnerability specifically. But I do wonder if popularity wasn't also on her mind. Especially since she was so pleased when (IIRC) Steve Kloves said his favorite character was Hermione. And also since, pre-OotP, she got a lot of criticism for not writing enough strong female characters--and then in OotP Hermione's role was IMO jazzed up and we also got a jazzed-up Ginny and a Tonks and a Luna. All of this makes me wonder if she felt Hermione was unappreciated.

Aside from Harry's generally more palpable affection for Ron, it's also dramatic convention to have the hero's best friend die, and it's usually a male best friend, and in any case Ron is more of a 'best friend' to Harry than Hermione is. Plus the whole GoF arc, what with the rift between Ron and Harry and the "what you'll sorely miss" thing, really brought out how important the two are to each other. Which for some writers would be a set-up for dramatically killing Ron.