PoA Chapter Thirteen

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh no. It’s a Quidditch Chapter. Can I just say that Harry wins and skip this one?

It looks like the end of Ron and Hermione’s friendship because they’re so angry at each other. End of a friendship, beginning of a true love marriage. It’s often hard to tell the difference. They both involve so much hostility.

Yeah, I’m sure sex will clear all this constant bickering right up.

I have to say that even though Ron’s wrong? Crookshanks has been trying to attack Scabbers in plain sight for months, so it’s ridiculous for Hermione to claim that Ron's just got something against Crookshanks when what he's always had against Crookshanks is exactly this, that he's always trying to attack his dang rat. Ron just doesn’t know the real reason. Even if Hermione doesn’t think Crookshanks really did it she ought to show she’d feel sorry if he had, and in general have sympathy over Ron's injured and lost pet.

But then, this is the book for wizard pet owners blaming the victim and being proved right about it in the end.

Hermione's not even trying to prove Crookshanks didn't do it with logic or evidence or something. She really does seem to just be saying that he can't be accused of something because she likes him. Which is pretty much the way the justice system works in the Wizarding World so I guess that's why she eventually goes into law.

I wish I could just appreciate this as proof that Hermione's not really logical or fair at all when it comes to these things, but I don't think that's quite what I'm supposed to get out of this.

Oliver announces that Ravenclaw's playing Cho Chang as Seeker—shouldn't they have the same Seeker as always like everyone else?

Cho's had some problems with injuries. That's because she's weak, Oliver. Doesn't have the spine to really be a match for Harry.

Oliver seems like he's going to say something about Cho being a good Seeker, but then dismisses it by once again alluding to the fact that her broom can't possibly win against Harry's super broom. Which is still not unfair at all.

Harry gets on his broom for the first time and confirms that yes, he's now just about quadrupled his skill by riding a better broom.

The team cheers for Harry every time he catches the Snitch. Or more to the point, they cheer for the broom that's just given them a ridiculous advantage.

Oh, and apparently the Firebolt is so good it makes the rest of the team better too. They're inspired by "the Firebolt in their midst."

At least now we can see where Harry’s "Dementor problem" comes in handy. Wood can allude to it and make it seem as if Harry’s still got some sort of challenge in the game. Iow: Sure he's essentially been given a sports car for a bike race, but what if another bunny rabbit hops onto the track and he has to swerve? The suspense is killing me!

That must be why it still doesn't occur to Oliver to make sure the Dementors are kept off the field, or plan to call a time-out if they come near it. Oliver's too much of a good sport to call interference, but not enough of a good sport to eschew the Firebolt. It's a very specific level of sportsmanship.

Madam Hootch falls asleep while chaperoning, which is weird and out of nowhere.

Harry sees eyes in the darkness that he mistakes for the Grim, but it's really Crookshanks. Actually it presumably really was the Grim, with whom Crookshanks is hanging out. Clue!

Everyone in the school comes over to fawn over Harry’s broom, without a resentful eye in the bunch. And certainly no accusations that Harry's showing off by bringing his broom to breakfast. It's a well known fact that Firebolts are powered by Weetabix.

Percy says something funny to Harry, and Harry naturally takes no notice of it.

Oh wait, here comes the resentful eye. Malfoy comes over to have his face rubbed in the Firebolt. He makes a lame joke about it needing a parachute in case of Dementors; Harry makes a lame joke about Malfoy needing an extra arm on his broom to catch the Snitch. The Gryffindor teams laughs uproariously. Fun reader activity: Imagine the reaction of the school and the narrator if Draco Malfoy got a Firebolt and brought it to breakfast.

Malfoy returns to the rest of the Slytherin team and they put their heads together, probably asking Malfoy if it was really a Firebolt. The Slytherins can't actually walk over to Harry themselves like everyone else, so they just lurk in the shadows like a big, ugly mob with Malfoy as a messenger.

I can't imagine why people doubt that the Slytherins really did come back to fight in DH even though it's not in the text.

Harry takes off his school robes and sticks his wand in his tee-shirt. That sounds uncomfortable and difficult to reach.

Also, Harry wears tee-shirts under his robes now.

Ravenclaw’s only got one girl on the team. Because Gryffindor's always a leader in tolerance. They're the non-sexist house too! Right, Nu!Ginny?

This despite the fact that everyone who really loves Ginny treats her in a paternalistic fashion.

The history of sexism in the WW is kind of interesting, actually. There are some clues that they don't have the same history as Muggles since magic should be an equalizer. But when it comes down to it we usually get the exact same slightly old-fashioned stereotypes as you'd get in a Muggle story: few girls on the sports team, double standards in romance, no girls in the Slug Club back in the 50s etc.

Cho's a head shorter than Harry at 13? I never realized she was supposed to be so tiny.

Harry develops a chaste crush on Cho immediately. Gotta set this up for GoF! Work it, JKR!

Harry effortlessly outpaces Cho to the Snitch, but is set off-course by a bludger. Fred vents his frustration at the guy who hit it by hitting a bludger directly at him. Kind of like Crabbe will do to Harry later, only when Crabbe does it it's after the game's over and super super obnoxious. Also when Fred does it it’s funny. (But not as funny as when Super!Ginny plows into Zachariah Smith! The scurvy coward!)

McGonagall yells at Lee for commenting on the brooms instead of the Seekers, but since the last few chapters have made painstakingly clear that this really is a broom competition he actually is doing an accurate commentary. Cho’s Cleansweep having no chance really is what's going on in the game. (I can hear Malfoy in the stands now: "Now we're not even allowed to say that Potter's got an unfair advantage?)

Because of her bad broom, Cho actually shows herself a far better and smarter flier than Harry does in the whole series. No informed attributes here.

It sucks that she'll therefore need to be outclassed by super!Ginny in HBP, even though Cho's good flying skills are an actual character trait and Ginny's are just part of her general Ideal-girl-for-Harry-ness in HBP.

Fred yells at Harry for being a gentleman and orders him to knock her off her broom if he has to. Again, this is exactly the kind of behavior that's been established as the mark of a terrible sportsman when Slytherin does it.

I notice that mostly because of the people who used to try to claim that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle dressed as Dementors on the field are guilty of attempted murder. As if they could make Harry faint just by just putting on black cloaks. And as if Fred didn’t just make clear that falling off your broom is a normal part of Quidditch.

It's a "low, cowardly trick" because they're Slytherins, but it’s actually not a bad distraction tactic to dress up as a Dementor here. If Fred, George or Ginny had done it it would no doubt have been considered quite plucky and clever and a good show all around. It might even have been funny in a slightly less nasty way when they wound up in a heap.

But let's pretend that Harry actually overcame something to catch that Snitch. Our poor little underdog hero!

Actually, props to JKR for playing it as the afterthought that it should be. It's just a little extra cherry on the sundae for Harry, really.

Harry’s carried off on everyone’s shoulders, because the rest of the team might as well not have even been there, as usual. They should really be carrying the Firebolt on their shoulders.

No signs that Ravenclaw resents this loss. Yet we know they house some sore losers, right Nu!Ginny?

Getting back to the animal theme, Ron says he won't forgive Hermione because she won't admit she's wrong. Which handily makes Ron the one in the wrong. But I'd think the real issue isn't that she insists her cat is innocent but that she shows no sympathy for people about their dead pets.

Ron's woken by Sirius standing over him with a knife. That must have been pretty exciting for Ron. Again, one of the weaknesses of this book is that the actual story isn't happening to Harry, it's just going on near Harry. Those of us in Harry's pov have to be contented with Quidditch matches.

Percy pins his Head Boy badge to his pajamas. Awww.

How exactly does McGonagall always hear noises in Gryffindor? Where does she live?

McGonagall immediately says that Sirius couldn’t have woken Ron, because he couldn't get through the portrait hole. Did she actually just say that? Sirius is the only person to ever escape Azkaban. That's kind of his thing. But he couldn’t get through this kind of idiot security?

Neville gets blamed for the break-in. Yup, no reason to look any further up on the chain of command there.

Things that happen more than once:
Harry wins a Quidditch match again.
Second Dementor on the field, only this one's fake so Harry hears nothing at all. It's like how in Jaws you know the first shark on the fourth of July is a fake because there's no theme music.
Owner of pet that seems to very clearly have done something wrong claims pet is innocent and doesn't apologize for it.
Sirius has gotten into the Tower again.
Somebody's declared the single hero of the Quidditch game--in OotP it's Ron.
Harry digs Quidditch chicks.
Ron gets angry at someone for reasons that seem to imply a genuine emotional hurt that this issue merely brought up, but it's set up so that it will be resolved by Ron admitting he was wrong on a technicality.
Harry sees the Grim again.

It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!

The Grim
Status: Totally fired. Bulls-eye.

Harry totally wants to date Cho
Status: Fired. But only as a practice shot before Ginny.

Harry dreams about following a silver thing with hooves.
Status: Fired in this book, but you can’t help but think of Snape’s Patronus reading it now.




Day-for-Night
Hootch falls asleep just so Harry and Ron can have a romantic nighttime fly together.

Designated Hero
Harry and Gryffindor win a game pretty much entirely because they have better equipment and we’re supposed to cheer for him especially loudly for it.

Idiot Picture
Sure Sirius Black escaped from an inescapable prison and we think he’s after this one kid to kill him. But Harry’s perfectly safe. The painting of Don Quixote’s idiot British cousin will protect him!

Monster Death Trap Proviso
Special mention, because in this case nobody’s even tried to catch the monster once yet, despite the fact that he's already made clear where he's desperately trying to go.

Offscreen Teleportation
McGonagall, where did you come from? Where do you always come from?

Jabootu Score: 5

Comments

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

But then, this is the book for wizard pet owners blaming the victim and being proved right about it in the end.

This shows the natural superiority of instinct over reason. Animals are instinctual. If they don't like someone, it's because there's something wrong with that person. Humans, on the other hand, try to adopt the reasonable attitude that others are good until proven otherwise.

See how nicely that works? Buckbeak attacked Draco because Draco is inherently bad. Crookshanks could just smell the traitor on Scabbers--just like Scabbers attacked Goyle because Goyle is bad.

Going back to the Marauders and Snape: It was James and Co's ability to get in touch with their animal selves that clued them into Snape's inherent badness. SWM? They were just being like dogs who can tell the bad guy immediately.

This despite the fact that everyone who really loves Ginny treats her in a paternalistic fashion.

Heh. Ain't that the truth, though? We were supposed to laugh at Ron and his protectiveness in HBP, right? But all her family treat her that way, starting with Percy in CoS, and ending with the whole Ginny has to sit in an empty room during the big fight scene in DH.

I guess I can see her family doing that, but it was a bit much when Harry fell in line with them. This, with the girl who broke up with someone because he helped her climb into a high doorway.

Ron's woken by Sirius standing over him with a knife. That must have been pretty exciting for Ron. Again, one of the weaknesses of this book is that the actual story isn't happening to Harry, it's just going on near Harry. Those of us in Harry's pov have to be contented with Quidditch matches.

I believe it's in the next chapter that Ron cashes in on this moment by telling everybody the exciting story. And Harry notes that this just makes Ron more pathetic because Ron has to embellish the story to make himself look like a hero. Unlike Harry, who never has to do his own PR.

Percy pins his Head Boy badge to his pajamas. Awww.

Also, given the number of times that Gryffindors get roused from their beds due to a crisis, Percy is just being pro-active. Chances are he'll be needed to herd everyone over to the Great Hall and dole out sleeping bags again.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This shows the natural superiority of instinct over reason. Animals are instinctual. If they don't like someone, it's because there's something wrong with that person.

Wizard animals, that is. Ripper just reflects the unfair attitude of his owner.

I believe it's in the next chapter that Ron cashes in on this moment by telling everybody the exciting story. And Harry notes that this just makes Ron more pathetic because Ron has to embellish the story to make himself look like a hero. Unlike Harry, who never has to do his own PR.

What's funny is that Harry really is embelishing the story. Sirius really was at the right bed and had no interest in stabbing Harry!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Wizard animals, that is. Ripper just reflects the unfair attitude of his owner.

Another laugh-out-loud moment, hee. :-) :-)

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

This shows the natural superiority of instinct over reason. Animals are instinctual. If they don't like someone, it's because there's something wrong with that person.

Wizard animals, that is. Ripper just reflects the unfair attitude of his owner.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

FTW.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

This, with the girl who broke up with someone because he helped her climb into a high doorway.

I'd never thought much about that until I read it presented baldly here. Hmm. It sort of reinforces the notion that dear Ginny was just cycling through boyfriends with no real sincerity - using them - while waiting for her crush!prince to notice her, doesn't it? Or is my bias slanting things too far anti-Ginny here?

Nonetheless, it's so funny to see the comparison you give us here, Dean's treatment of Ginny - grounds for dismissal from the arms/lips of the Gryffindor Quidditch Queen - and Harry's, so much worse.

It's no wonder why so many H/G fanfics start off with Ginny 'fiercely' asserting her independence, attacking Harry in revenge for his patronising attitude, and Harry promptly falling into line under her 'hard, blazing look' and meekly apologising. If you're wed to the H/G pairing and can't see it for how it was actually written that's the first thing you'd have to correct!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think the idea was that Ginny broke up with him for helping her through the door, actually. I think the idea was that she had been annoyed w/him for a while and helping her the portrait hole was the type of thing he'd do that bugged her. I wouldn't say she was cycling through boyfriends, really, since she's only got 2, right? She dated him most of the year I think.

From what I've heard, the movie injected a bit more emotional investment on Ginny's part than comes out in canon. While I wouldn't say Ginny was using the boys she went out with, it did seem like we were being shown that they were always more into her than she was to them. Each breakup seemed to be about Ginny getting sick of having to put up with the guy and dumping him without looking back. We don't see the boys' perspective enough to say for sure that they were sad to lose her, but I think there's more hint to that than otherwise. When Harry kisses her Dean looks upset without Ginny noticing.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I think the idea was that she had been annoyed w/him for a while and helping her the portrait hole was the type of thing he'd do that bugged her.

Yes, I think they're on rocky ground before that; Harry picks up on a lack of enthusiasm on Ginny's part with regard to Dean once or twice.

But it was still a superficial pretext to employ in dumping him, even if it was the final straw on the camel's back. As was Ginny's excuse for dumping Corner at the end of book 5.

I wouldn't say she was cycling through boyfriends, really, since she's only got 2, right?

The fervent anti-Ginny crowd include Neville as a boyfriend, seeing as how they attended the Yule ball together, but I've always thought that was stretching things myself. But I *think* Ginny dumped Neville for Corner at the ball? Is that canon? I really don't remember the source of that one, but I have read it at various places.

Ginny does give the appearance of 'cycling' through boyfriends just for the sake of it, because that's what silly little girls do, though. She's with Corner, dumps him over a quidditch game, and then mentions that she immediately moved on to Dean. It was that transition - oh dear, I've lost my boyfriend, gotta get another one, oh, okay, I'm with Dean now - which helps me view all of Ginny's dalliances with a suspicious and condemning eye.

(In writing the above I'm struck by another slight pointer that Ginny's fling with Harry was of no more depth than the others; she dumped Michael over quidditch, she's driven into Harry's arms over quidditch. Oh, but Harry is her 'soul mate'? Yeah, riiight.)

We don't see the boys' perspective enough to say for sure that they were sad to lose her, but I think there's more hint to that than otherwise. When Harry kisses her Dean looks upset without Ginny noticing.

Ginny wouldn't notice Dean, he was a stepping stone on the way to Harry. :-)

Dean was *most definitely* upset:

Harry looked over the top of Ginny's head to see Dean Thomas holding a shattered glass in his hand ...

He was so emotional over the public display of affection by our two reserved and dignified heroes he involuntarily broke the glass he was holding! Poor Dean.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The fervent anti-Ginny crowd include Neville as a boyfriend, seeing as how they attended the Yule ball together, but I've always thought that was stretching things myself. But I *think* Ginny dumped Neville for Corner at the ball? Is that canon? I really don't remember the source of that one, but I have read it at various places.

I think she says she met him at the Yule Ball, which is probably where they get it. But that doesn't mean she dumped Neville and went home with Michael. She could just have met him there and talked to him and the following year he asks her out.

She's with Corner, dumps him over a quidditch game, and then mentions that she immediately moved on to Dean. It was that transition - oh dear, I've lost my boyfriend, gotta get another one, oh, okay, I'm with Dean now - which helps me view all of Ginny's dalliances with a suspicious and condemning eye.

My impression is that she's supposed to be popular and there's always boys who want to date her so after she breaks up with Michael Dean asks her out and she says yes. Which isn't particularly bad, but Ginny's always presented as emotionally uninvested. Not that she needs to be devestated by any means, but it's the same pattern as it really is with everybody: they get experience with others/prove that they're desired by others in relationships before they get together with their "true love," but there's no awkward emotional attachment to compete with the other person, no implication that anyone else could have meant anything to them. Lavender, Michael, Cho and Dean all wind up as irritations that Ron, Harry and Ginny are glad to be rid of. Viktor isn't around to bother Hermione but he, too, is shown as always far more into her than she is into him. If he was at Hogwarts he would definitely had been the same way.

The Dean thing with the glass really amazed me. It's like we have to be reminded again that Harry's "won" by getting Ginny. Now Dean's jealous of Harry! Yippee! Not only do Ginny and Harry not care, it's part of the triumph of the scene for some reason.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Lavender, Michael, Cho and Dean all wind up as irritations that Ron, Harry and Ginny are glad to be rid of.

Poor kids (the former group); they didn't know they were plot puppets set up as temporary hurdles to the blessed OBHWF pairings.

Except we didn't get much depth out of the final relationships either. Harry's monster's lust ended in a few hidden 'sunlit days' ... and then next book we've got Ginny displaying petty jealousy and Harry eschewing her company for a sandwich. And R/Hr was only evident in one rushed kiss in the final battle.

Not only do Ginny and Harry not care, it's part of the triumph of the scene for some reason.

Yes, it's quite ugly, isn't it? Every step of the way, really - Harry's monster is born over his jealous rage over Dean, his Felix Felicis is instrumental in its destruction, and then the union of our hero and his quidditch princess is anointed in a mammoth public fanfare for all to witness and adore. Cheap and nasty throughout.

Now Dean's jealous of Harry!

That's what personally insults me the most. We're discussing elsewhere in this blog entry Rowling's own personal failings and how they're evidenced in the characters she wrote (like in the deeds of my poor Hermione!). But it's Rowling's dependence on jealousy as her prime and almost only indicator of 'romance' and 'true love' which really gets my goat. The books - the 'romances' - are saturated with it. Harry's monster is triggered by Harry's jealousy over Dean. Dean gets jealous of him. Almost every appearance of Ginny in the final book is accompanied by her jealousy of anything female that might get close to Harry ('soulmates'? HAH!). Half of HBP, it seems, is tied up with the games Ron and Hermione play, each using others to make their opposite jealous. What were those 'anvil sized' hints that Ron was attracted to Hermione in the early books? The bickering and the figths and, why, his jealousy over Krum!

Ugh. It's just horrible. Yes, jealousy has its place in juvenile romances, and no-one's perfect (not even my Hermione) but jeeze, that's all Rowling had, it seems. That and the fighting-means-true-love-even-if-there-are-no-other-indications-at-all trope for R/Hr.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Okay: Confession time. I'm one of those people who lump Neville in as a Ginny boyfriend, but it's mostly as a joke. I agree that their date at the Yule Ball doesn't really make them a couple, and that Ginny probably just met Michael Corner at the Yule Ball and got together with him later on. There's no evidence that she dumped Neville at the party.

But it's funny in retrospect how upwardly mobile Ginny was back then. Sure, she doesn't dump poor Neville when there's the slight chance that she could go with Harry. But she sure seems disappointed about it. And she basically says that the only reason she's going with Neville is because she's too young to go on her own. Because it would be embarrassing to go on an actual date with Neville, right?

As I see the time line, after the ball and between... whenever it is in OotP that we hear about Michael Corner, Hermione advises Ginny about dating other guys to get Harry interested. I guess this comes from Hermione's own experience with dating Viktor and the marvelous jealousy it evoked in Ron.

How will I know my love?
How will I know my darling?
Whippoorwill, give me a sign
Something to show he's mine...

How will I know my love?
When he turns green as pine wood!
When he gets jealous enough...
That's how I'll know my love!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

As I see the time line, after the ball and between... whenever it is in OotP that we hear about Michael Corner, Hermione advises Ginny about dating other guys to get Harry interested. I guess this comes from Hermione's own experience with dating Viktor and the marvelous jealousy it evoked in Ron.

I never saw that!! Wonderful!! And it just adds to the whole 'jealousy' bandwagon.

Ginny told Harry that Hermione's advice was to 'be herself' but we know what that really meant. ;-)

[oryx_leucoryx]

If Dean was jealous, doesn't this mean in Rowlingland that he truly loved Ginny? And possibly Lavender truly loved Ron? Neither Ginny nor Ron loved the respective ex back but that does not make their love any less true.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course Lavender's jealousy showed that she truly loved Ron; I mean, it's RON!

And EVERYONE loves GINNY!!

But Ron's jealousy over Hermione over multiple books ... and Ginny's jealousy of anyone female near Harry all through book 7 ... tells us that the two Weasleys only loved their respective OBHWF partners, and no-one else. That's the ROWLING INDICATOR of TRUE LOVE. If you can't see a chest monster just follow the green-eyed monster. Doesn't all this horrible jealousy pure and untainted love, flowing through the books, just make you feel disgusted wonderful and content?

:-(

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Not only do Ginny and Harry not care, it's part of the triumph of the scene for some reason.

And that is so offensive! It's the same as putting someone else's project/writing/showing down merely to enhance your own. Those sorts of interplays are not only offensive to others but they can become vicious within the set of principals. That whole cheerleader murder (wasn't it a murder?) some years ago is exactly along these sorts of "triumphant" lines - someone deciding that so-and-so doesn't deserve the accolades or prize and taking sometimes illegal steps, almost always immoral or questionable steps, to ensure that so-and-so doesn't win.

Gossipers do that. I try my best not to gossip (I don't always succeed) because I was surrounded by a bevy of back-biters while growing up. These were not just kids, they were the experienced, veteran adults who really knew how to slash low and make broad, sweeping statements over little things like who is dating whom and all that. They do with their tongues what Jason and Freddy do with their weapons - slash until the whole world is bloodied, people are literally sick to their stomachs from the tension, and their views have been accepted (or seem to have been accepted) by the people they believe to matter.

This crushed glass, Dean's stricken look, is what those gossipers and subverters expect to see, dream of seeing, want to see. It is the perfect ending of each domination fantasy they work through. And of course with no repercussions on themselves since they were right, are always right, and there ought to be a law that sets the world up to their own standards and opinions. Puritans would probably love this sort of ending.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

It's the same as putting someone else's project/writing/showing down merely to enhance your own.
Simply put, it's a very hierarchical world view: the top dogs are (among other things) defined as those who (can) breed, i.e. who others want to breed with. So the top girl is the one who can choose among the most suitors, and the top boy is the one who gets this top girl. Thus, Dean's broken glass is the sign that Harry and Ginny are really the best - would have been better still if Romilda and other girls had broken into tears.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Seeing it written out like this, it also strikes me as very... Okay, this is how (a certain sort of) girls do their power-plays in highschool and such. Especially girls where self-worth is determined by who gets the hottest, or best, boy. Where every girl is a rival to be held close when convenient but dropped without thought as soon as it's necessary. It's mean-girl behavior, isn't it? A world without friends but rather sycophants and enemies.

I remember thinking that Harry wasn't behaving very well at the least, but also wasn't acting much like a boy either. Especially a boy living in a dorm with a bunch of other boys he's grown up with. Not that he couldn't date Ginny after she and Dean breakup, but it was odd that Dean's jealousy was something triumphant for Harry rather than something bad during an otherwise perfect day. An obvious problem that he was going to have to fix. (Because it's not like Dean was Draco, you know? Weren't these boys supposed to be friends? Technically?)

[oryx_leucoryx]

This shows the natural superiority of instinct over reason. Animals are instinctual. If they don't like someone, it's because there's something wrong with that person. Humans, on the other hand, try to adopt the reasonable attitude that others are good until proven otherwise.

You still have to explain how the other Marauders was so mistaken about Peter, though.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Sorry. Their faith in Peter defies explanation, especially when we see what a snivelling toady he was in SWM!

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Maybe their weakness is toadies who snivel to them. That was their fault, that's why they had to die - they mistook sniveling for loyalty. That fault was bred out of the next generation via Lily's amazing discernment over good friend Sev's housemates-cum-friends.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That sort of arrogance does seem to fit. The fact that he was kissing up to them meant he ought to have been good. That certainly works for Harry. Most of his sychophants turn out well. Romilda's the only one I can't think of whether we see her being brave in the end. But the people who don't seem to like Harry are pretty much always suspect. It's a total fanon thing where Harry actually benefits from people who challenge him, even if they're challenging him for petty reasons. Lots of people thought Zach Smith was the canon version of fanon!Draco. Not!

And thinking further, again it's not like the Marauders bad qualities were ever seriously shown as causing their downfall. Remus gets his firm talking to by Harry for his cowardice, but cowardice is the one quality that's universally bad. sirius and James' serious bullying of Snape is just a normal part of being 15. Snape's downfall is far more about Snape's own faults eating him alive than Sirius and James driving him to anything. Likewise I never got the impression that canon thought the Peter relationship said anything bad about the other 3 Marauders.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

again it's not like the Marauders bad qualities were ever seriously shown as causing their downfall.
and Likewise I never got the impression that canon thought the Peter relationship said anything bad about the other 3 Marauders.

Definitly not. My impression was that on the contrary it was their inherent nobility that made them vulnerable - James and most certainly Sirius came off as some sort of modern Siegfrieds who are so sincere and forward they could never conceive of anyone else being false and hiding treason behind a loyal (read sycophantic) exterior.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

...it's not like the Marauders bad qualities were ever seriously shown as causing their downfall

I'm not sure. James' arrogance in brushing off Dumbledore, thinking he knew better in Peter, and jumping to the door without his wand pretty much led to his family's downfall. Sirius' sulking led to years of imprisonment, and his impulsive bravado led to his death. Remus' equivocation possibly led to his friends not trusting him, and to the happy marriage to Tonks and the subsequent sacrifice on the battlefield. I think JKR left those characters deeply flawed on purpose, if only to show how much more righteous Harry was by contrast.

Snape's downfall is far more about Snape's own faults eating him alive than Sirius and James driving him to anything.

It's not that I disagree -- he is not Luna, who can brush off a personal insult and who has friends who, even if they think she's weird, let her hang around and praise them -- but could you expand on what his faults were that overrode the effects of bullying by Sirius and James? What faults were we shown that led to his downfall? I can come up with a list, but they are not so clear in canon, and not all are faults. First on the list is blood prejudice, but I truly doubt that was the reason he hung out with Avery and Mulciber or joined the Death Eaters, although it probably made those decisions easier.

Another great recap, by the way!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I see MWPP's lives much the same way, but I still don't feel like the narrative is all that disapproving of them. Remus's moral cowardice gets called out, but I don't think Sirius' sulking is supposed to reflect badly on him, for instance. Even James' choice to not use Dumbledore as a secret keeper...well, I admit that I'm with James on that one because I hate the lesson that you're always supposed to follow Dumbledore's orders and make him the center of everything so I tend to see it as a good thing that James actually went with somebody he knew, even if his choice was wrong. But even that led to the plan that brought Dumbledore down.

For Snape I would say that his faults were his bitterness, jealousy and tunnel vision that kept him from seeing things objectively. We get scenes where Lily's clearly concerned about his being friends with the guys he's friends with but all Snape's focused on is his hatred of James. His behavior that pushed Lily away seems far more directly tied to his accidentally targetting her as a DE than James's bullying--which really does seem brushed off as something that was wrong, yeah, but hey, he was 15!

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, of *course* the Marauders are all depicted as deeply flawed. It would never do for any of them to outshine Harry!

Reading between the lines, James and Co *knew* there was a spy in their ranks. We aren't ever told that *they* were aware that Albus was convinced the spy was one of their group rather than the Longbottoms' or one of the other cliques'. But the very fact that half of them suspected Remus strongly suggests that they were. And James went ahead and recklessly made a grand gesture of his loyalty by deputizing a friend to be his SK rather than letting Albus do it, or of doing it himself.

It's not so much that he wouldn't take Albus up on his offer. but that he had to make a *demonstration* of his faith in his friends by not doing it himself.

It's like he was "playing" at being a war hero and convinced that nothing bad would ever happen to him.