PoA Chapter Thirteen

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh no. It’s a Quidditch Chapter. Can I just say that Harry wins and skip this one?

It looks like the end of Ron and Hermione’s friendship because they’re so angry at each other. End of a friendship, beginning of a true love marriage. It’s often hard to tell the difference. They both involve so much hostility.

Yeah, I’m sure sex will clear all this constant bickering right up.

I have to say that even though Ron’s wrong? Crookshanks has been trying to attack Scabbers in plain sight for months, so it’s ridiculous for Hermione to claim that Ron's just got something against Crookshanks when what he's always had against Crookshanks is exactly this, that he's always trying to attack his dang rat. Ron just doesn’t know the real reason. Even if Hermione doesn’t think Crookshanks really did it she ought to show she’d feel sorry if he had, and in general have sympathy over Ron's injured and lost pet.

But then, this is the book for wizard pet owners blaming the victim and being proved right about it in the end.

Hermione's not even trying to prove Crookshanks didn't do it with logic or evidence or something. She really does seem to just be saying that he can't be accused of something because she likes him. Which is pretty much the way the justice system works in the Wizarding World so I guess that's why she eventually goes into law.

I wish I could just appreciate this as proof that Hermione's not really logical or fair at all when it comes to these things, but I don't think that's quite what I'm supposed to get out of this.

Oliver announces that Ravenclaw's playing Cho Chang as Seeker—shouldn't they have the same Seeker as always like everyone else?

Cho's had some problems with injuries. That's because she's weak, Oliver. Doesn't have the spine to really be a match for Harry.

Oliver seems like he's going to say something about Cho being a good Seeker, but then dismisses it by once again alluding to the fact that her broom can't possibly win against Harry's super broom. Which is still not unfair at all.

Harry gets on his broom for the first time and confirms that yes, he's now just about quadrupled his skill by riding a better broom.

The team cheers for Harry every time he catches the Snitch. Or more to the point, they cheer for the broom that's just given them a ridiculous advantage.

Oh, and apparently the Firebolt is so good it makes the rest of the team better too. They're inspired by "the Firebolt in their midst."

At least now we can see where Harry’s "Dementor problem" comes in handy. Wood can allude to it and make it seem as if Harry’s still got some sort of challenge in the game. Iow: Sure he's essentially been given a sports car for a bike race, but what if another bunny rabbit hops onto the track and he has to swerve? The suspense is killing me!

That must be why it still doesn't occur to Oliver to make sure the Dementors are kept off the field, or plan to call a time-out if they come near it. Oliver's too much of a good sport to call interference, but not enough of a good sport to eschew the Firebolt. It's a very specific level of sportsmanship.

Madam Hootch falls asleep while chaperoning, which is weird and out of nowhere.

Harry sees eyes in the darkness that he mistakes for the Grim, but it's really Crookshanks. Actually it presumably really was the Grim, with whom Crookshanks is hanging out. Clue!

Everyone in the school comes over to fawn over Harry’s broom, without a resentful eye in the bunch. And certainly no accusations that Harry's showing off by bringing his broom to breakfast. It's a well known fact that Firebolts are powered by Weetabix.

Percy says something funny to Harry, and Harry naturally takes no notice of it.

Oh wait, here comes the resentful eye. Malfoy comes over to have his face rubbed in the Firebolt. He makes a lame joke about it needing a parachute in case of Dementors; Harry makes a lame joke about Malfoy needing an extra arm on his broom to catch the Snitch. The Gryffindor teams laughs uproariously. Fun reader activity: Imagine the reaction of the school and the narrator if Draco Malfoy got a Firebolt and brought it to breakfast.

Malfoy returns to the rest of the Slytherin team and they put their heads together, probably asking Malfoy if it was really a Firebolt. The Slytherins can't actually walk over to Harry themselves like everyone else, so they just lurk in the shadows like a big, ugly mob with Malfoy as a messenger.

I can't imagine why people doubt that the Slytherins really did come back to fight in DH even though it's not in the text.

Harry takes off his school robes and sticks his wand in his tee-shirt. That sounds uncomfortable and difficult to reach.

Also, Harry wears tee-shirts under his robes now.

Ravenclaw’s only got one girl on the team. Because Gryffindor's always a leader in tolerance. They're the non-sexist house too! Right, Nu!Ginny?

This despite the fact that everyone who really loves Ginny treats her in a paternalistic fashion.

The history of sexism in the WW is kind of interesting, actually. There are some clues that they don't have the same history as Muggles since magic should be an equalizer. But when it comes down to it we usually get the exact same slightly old-fashioned stereotypes as you'd get in a Muggle story: few girls on the sports team, double standards in romance, no girls in the Slug Club back in the 50s etc.

Cho's a head shorter than Harry at 13? I never realized she was supposed to be so tiny.

Harry develops a chaste crush on Cho immediately. Gotta set this up for GoF! Work it, JKR!

Harry effortlessly outpaces Cho to the Snitch, but is set off-course by a bludger. Fred vents his frustration at the guy who hit it by hitting a bludger directly at him. Kind of like Crabbe will do to Harry later, only when Crabbe does it it's after the game's over and super super obnoxious. Also when Fred does it it’s funny. (But not as funny as when Super!Ginny plows into Zachariah Smith! The scurvy coward!)

McGonagall yells at Lee for commenting on the brooms instead of the Seekers, but since the last few chapters have made painstakingly clear that this really is a broom competition he actually is doing an accurate commentary. Cho’s Cleansweep having no chance really is what's going on in the game. (I can hear Malfoy in the stands now: "Now we're not even allowed to say that Potter's got an unfair advantage?)

Because of her bad broom, Cho actually shows herself a far better and smarter flier than Harry does in the whole series. No informed attributes here.

It sucks that she'll therefore need to be outclassed by super!Ginny in HBP, even though Cho's good flying skills are an actual character trait and Ginny's are just part of her general Ideal-girl-for-Harry-ness in HBP.

Fred yells at Harry for being a gentleman and orders him to knock her off her broom if he has to. Again, this is exactly the kind of behavior that's been established as the mark of a terrible sportsman when Slytherin does it.

I notice that mostly because of the people who used to try to claim that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle dressed as Dementors on the field are guilty of attempted murder. As if they could make Harry faint just by just putting on black cloaks. And as if Fred didn’t just make clear that falling off your broom is a normal part of Quidditch.

It's a "low, cowardly trick" because they're Slytherins, but it’s actually not a bad distraction tactic to dress up as a Dementor here. If Fred, George or Ginny had done it it would no doubt have been considered quite plucky and clever and a good show all around. It might even have been funny in a slightly less nasty way when they wound up in a heap.

But let's pretend that Harry actually overcame something to catch that Snitch. Our poor little underdog hero!

Actually, props to JKR for playing it as the afterthought that it should be. It's just a little extra cherry on the sundae for Harry, really.

Harry’s carried off on everyone’s shoulders, because the rest of the team might as well not have even been there, as usual. They should really be carrying the Firebolt on their shoulders.

No signs that Ravenclaw resents this loss. Yet we know they house some sore losers, right Nu!Ginny?

Getting back to the animal theme, Ron says he won't forgive Hermione because she won't admit she's wrong. Which handily makes Ron the one in the wrong. But I'd think the real issue isn't that she insists her cat is innocent but that she shows no sympathy for people about their dead pets.

Ron's woken by Sirius standing over him with a knife. That must have been pretty exciting for Ron. Again, one of the weaknesses of this book is that the actual story isn't happening to Harry, it's just going on near Harry. Those of us in Harry's pov have to be contented with Quidditch matches.

Percy pins his Head Boy badge to his pajamas. Awww.

How exactly does McGonagall always hear noises in Gryffindor? Where does she live?

McGonagall immediately says that Sirius couldn’t have woken Ron, because he couldn't get through the portrait hole. Did she actually just say that? Sirius is the only person to ever escape Azkaban. That's kind of his thing. But he couldn’t get through this kind of idiot security?

Neville gets blamed for the break-in. Yup, no reason to look any further up on the chain of command there.

Things that happen more than once:
Harry wins a Quidditch match again.
Second Dementor on the field, only this one's fake so Harry hears nothing at all. It's like how in Jaws you know the first shark on the fourth of July is a fake because there's no theme music.
Owner of pet that seems to very clearly have done something wrong claims pet is innocent and doesn't apologize for it.
Sirius has gotten into the Tower again.
Somebody's declared the single hero of the Quidditch game--in OotP it's Ron.
Harry digs Quidditch chicks.
Ron gets angry at someone for reasons that seem to imply a genuine emotional hurt that this issue merely brought up, but it's set up so that it will be resolved by Ron admitting he was wrong on a technicality.
Harry sees the Grim again.

It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!

The Grim
Status: Totally fired. Bulls-eye.

Harry totally wants to date Cho
Status: Fired. But only as a practice shot before Ginny.

Harry dreams about following a silver thing with hooves.
Status: Fired in this book, but you can’t help but think of Snape’s Patronus reading it now.




Day-for-Night
Hootch falls asleep just so Harry and Ron can have a romantic nighttime fly together.

Designated Hero
Harry and Gryffindor win a game pretty much entirely because they have better equipment and we’re supposed to cheer for him especially loudly for it.

Idiot Picture
Sure Sirius Black escaped from an inescapable prison and we think he’s after this one kid to kill him. But Harry’s perfectly safe. The painting of Don Quixote’s idiot British cousin will protect him!

Monster Death Trap Proviso
Special mention, because in this case nobody’s even tried to catch the monster once yet, despite the fact that he's already made clear where he's desperately trying to go.

Offscreen Teleportation
McGonagall, where did you come from? Where do you always come from?

Jabootu Score: 5

Comments

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

And, I guess, because I think Ron is pathetic.

Oh, I'll stand up for Ron here. :) (Not that va32h didn't do a lovely job, but I do enjoy sharing my opinion. *g*)

Ron was the last member of the trio standing for me, all the way up until DH (when he suddenly became...well, someone else). Probably because JKR didn't give him much power at all, so he had to work with what he had. (I imagine this is why Neville is another lone survivor; he even made it through DH! Go Neville and thank goodness for author ignoring! *g*)

But I liked that he was the regular guy of the group. And I adored that he understood how others around him were thinking. I honestly thought, pre-DH, he was going to lead both Harry and Hermione through some eye-opening growing on their parts. Not become the hero, but maybe provide some helpful hints when it came time for Harry to rally the 4 houses around him to defeat Voldemort. And maybe do the same for Hermione when it came time to enlist the houseelves and other magical citizens of the WW. (Oh, I was so young then... *g*)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

'Pathetic' might have been too strong a word ... hmmm ... no, I think I'll stick with it. :-)

You started out liking the 'regular guy' of the group, but my approach was the reverse; I preferred Hermione, the brains, the overachiever, the lass who everyone knows is so brilliant, and Harry, presumably a powerful wizard (we were so young then ... *g*).

I could read about 'regular guys' in any old book - or the newspaper - I was reading Harry Potter for the people who excelled, who did daring deeds or thought brilliant thoughts! The heroes and heroines! Not the bloke who held their hats and kept trying to drag Harry and Hermione down with the rest of the plebians - don't worry about it, she'll be right mate, house elves LIKE their lives, what's wrong with things the way they are, why should I try to understand muggles, et cetera.

And it was twice that he 'betrayed' Harry's friendship, plus he tried to force a split between Harry and Hermione Granger in PoA ... no, sorry, Ron had too many strikes against him to be anything but the third-stringer.

I honestly thought, pre-DH, he was going to lead both Harry and Hermione through some eye-opening growing on their parts. Not become the hero, but maybe provide some helpful hints when it came time for Harry to rally the 4 houses around him to defeat Voldemort. And maybe do the same for Hermione when it came time to enlist the houseelves and other magical citizens of the WW.

That would have been excellent, and would have had me cheering loudly (well, maybe).

As it was Rowling *did* try to mature Ron, but it was a case of too little, too late IMO. He'd spent six-sevenths of the series ranting and raving and jealously pining for Hermione in a juvenile manner; it was only in the last chapter of HBP that they were again 'friends'. In order for Rowling's blessed R/Hr to materialise she had to grow him up to meet Hermione's minimum criteria FAST. And so we had the 'always a tone of surprise' exchange, their holding hands going to sleep at Grimmauld, and Ron's inexplicable and uncharacteristic flashes of brilliance - opening the chamber, the basilisk fangs, was there something else?

This sudden evolution in the final novel is proof that the Ron of the first six books was no great shakes.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Ron's inexplicable and uncharacteristic flashes of brilliance - opening the chamber, the basilisk fangs, was there something else?

Um. Ron did persuade Harry to allow the DA to "help out" in DH by.... um... being cannon fodder. There's also a bit about Ron taking over the leadership of the Trio when Harry was busy obsessing about the Death Hallows for three months. If you blinked, though, you'd miss it, since his leadership accomplished nothing.

I actually thought Ron rather mature in OotP. He was the one person able to handle Harry and keep him from boiling over. Also, in OotP, the R/H was right where I thought it should be after the big fight in GoF. They seemed to very comfortable with each other, which was fine for what they were as characters. As far as I'm concerned, a romance between secondary characters shouldn't pull major focus. One big fight is enough.

So, it was majorly disappointing to me that we were given the jealousy storyline in HBP. I suppose it helped reinforce JKR's thesis about practice relationships being necessary before one gets together with their true love. (Heh. Maybe that was Merope's problem? She and Tom would have been happy if only she had fallen in love with someone else first...)

But getting back to R/H, the whole HBP storyline seemed contrived and redundant. We'd already dealt with Ron being jealous. It did seem like he ought to have gotten over it, and, since he obviously wasn't, it did make R/H seem doomed. I kind of envisioned this future where Hermione keeps rising in income and status through the WW, while Ron ends up being a house-husband, or forming a rock group in his thirties (or, since this is the WW, joining an amateur Quidditch league).

As for Ron's double betrayals of Harry, in both cases I was completely on Ron's side. Yes, Ron was wrong in his conclusions both times, but it drove me crazy how insensitive Harry was. Harry constantly used Ron as a measuring stick to reassure himself that he was at least better than average, in the classroom and all other aspects of his life. But he had no idea that Ron might be doing the same thing and getting tired of always being slightly less than Harry in all things?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

There's also a bit about Ron taking over the leadership of the Trio when Harry was busy obsessing about the Death Hallows for three months.

That's the days when he was busy counting the horcruxes they'd successfully found, right? While sitting in the tent? One, two ... two horcruxes. Hmmm. Let's count them again. One, two ... yep, two horcruxes! One more time! One, two ...

:-)

If you blinked, though, you'd miss it, since his leadership accomplished nothing.

Yup. It mocked the whole stupid plot, really. Let's go out into the woods and camp in a tent and ... do nothing.

We'd already dealt with Ron being jealous. It did seem like he ought to have gotten over it, and, since he obviously wasn't, it did make R/H seem doomed.

I like the way you think!

Seriously, that's a nice plank in the case for R/Hr being doomed (were it not for the author slapping on a couple of pages of the epilogue). He hadn't gotten over being jealous once, what would stop it from happening a second time? Hermione just has to look at someone differently and whammo?

As for Ron's double betrayals of Harry, in both cases I was completely on Ron's side. Yes, Ron was wrong in his conclusions both times, but it drove me crazy how insensitive Harry was.

We have different value systems; I prefer the truth above all else, even sensitivity. Of course it's best if one has *both* attributes, but if it is a case of wrong Ron versus heartless Harry I'll barrack for the latter every time.

(If Hermione isn't around; she has priority, of course. ;-))

It's a pity that Rowling didn't have either of the boys develop by the end of the series.

[oryx_leucoryx]

(Heh. Maybe that was Merope's problem? She and Tom would have been happy if only she had fallen in love with someone else first...)

So now we need to know if James had a practice relationship considering that by the time of his OWLs he was already thinking of Lily as a snitch to be caught. Also, did Molly and Arthur have respective practice relationships before realizing they were 'made for each other'?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

What bugs me about Ron's betrayal of Harry--and remember it's not like Harry himself hasn't jumped to way bigger conclusions than Ron does in those scenes. In DH, in fact, Ron is completely right. He doesn't see any way they'll succeed unless somebody comes along and drops the answer in Harry's lap. He's only wrong because he doesn't realize he's in a book where the author will be sure to drop the answer in Harry's lap.

But anyway, yeah, the problem with the GoF fight is that it doesn't actually address any of the issues the fight's really about. Okay, Ron was wrong about Harry putting his name in the goblet. Great, Ron admits that. Harry was also wrong (even if there was some truth to it) about accusing Ron of just basically wanting to be him. But Harry never has to deal with that of apologize for it. It's perfectly fine for Ron to literally risk his life for Harry more than once and then have Harry turn around and say he just wants to be him. Even though Ron never fully turns on Harry when he's angry at him.

Of course, I have the same problem with the fight with Hermione in PS/SS. That's another situation where the actual issue is kind of swept under the rug. In some ways, yes, it makes sense because after the troll fight Hermione is no longer friendless. But the bigger issue was Hermione's personality being unlikable, but somehow that never comes up again. Ron's flaws and insecurities continue to have consequences but Hermione's aren't. Even here in PoA when the boys are annoyed with her the reading that she's devestated is something you have to read into it. Basically, I just never feel like Hermione hits as high of an emotional level ever again as she does back in that one moment of PS/SS.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

I think that's where I got the sense that Ron was the regular guy. His flaws were recognized and he had to deal with them. At first, anyway. The problem with Ron came in DH when the problems he'd already dealt with came right back up again. Which meant rather than a character who grew he became a character defined by those flaws.

Whereas Harry and Hermione were earlier written as flawless characters. I assumed that the flaws I perceived would be dealt with as they were with Ron. I worried when HPB came out because nothing happened, but I hoped this meant a great reckoning in DH. But even while hopeful, it did mean both Harry and Hermione became flatter and flatter characters for me. I hoped DH would redeem them. Heh.

I do think, though, that the books started out with a sense of three flawed characters who'd learn lessons and grow as the series progressed. I really think there was something there for me to base my hopes on. Just, it grew flimsier.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent way of describing Ron's character arc. It was fun when he overcame his feelings of inadequacy in PS/SS and turned out to be an integral member of the team. Totally loved that.

(As it was nice that Hermione overcame her obnoxiousness enough to be included during the Troll fight.)

And then, I guess the arc was that Ron overcame his fear of spiders in CoS, but I sort of missed it because it wasn't really that interesting. In PoA, Ron was just there, with nothing to overcome*, but it didn't matter, because the big story was about the Marauders. (*The rift with Hermione wasn't something to overcome, it was basically played like a misunderstanding that got cleared up once Scabbers showed up again.)

Then in GoF, Ron has to get over his jealousy of Harry (not that he does--he just realized that he was wrong). Then, in OotP, it was his insecurity about Quidditch. Then, in HBP, it was his insecurity about both Quidditch and sex. And then it DH, it was his jealousy about Harry and his insecurity about sex... again.

So, Ron did keep having these inspiring growth moments. But, because he kept having it over the same damn things, it was hard to get excited or believe that he was growing. I don't think this was quite the impression JKR wanted. I think she actually did was us to be happy for Ron showing maturity. I guess she was so happy about it she just wanted to show it again and again and again and again.

With Harry, it seems like his only effective growth moment was when he stopped the rage long enough to listen to Sirius (I'll lump sparing Peter in with that as well). There were other moments written in, such as the moment when he decides to follow the horcruxes instead of the hallows, but they don't come off.

I guess Hermione's two moments come in PS/SS. The one, as we seem to agree, is when she sacrifices student perfection for friendship (in pretending she was responsible for the Troll). The other is when she admits that courage is more important than book larnin'. (Or maybe it's just the same moment twice?)

Other than that--I do think Hermione is mature in sacrificing friendship for Harry's safety. But, while I find it admirable (especially considering how much she pays for that), it's not really a growth moment.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Ooh, this gives me thoughts! :) It could have been interesting if JKR had really played up the Firebolt thing. In PS/SS Hermione lies to cover for Harry and Ron and she earns their friendship. Then she cements their friendship by breaking rules with increasing abandon (smuggling out Norbert, breaking the strict curfew, sneaking into the secret chamber the stone is hidden in). Big change for such a by-the-book girl.

Then there's CoS, which I think is a treading water book for Hermione as well as Ron. I mean, just as he puts his life on the line for Harry. Again. Hermione breaks the rules (lying to a teacher, drugging students, brewing illicit potions) for him. Again. Bigger but still repetitive. But that's okay because the story there had more to do with Harry and Voldemort and their connection. I don't think it was necessary for Hermione and Ron to have big moments of growth as well. (I mean, I think it could have been awesome, especially if it teased out Harry's plot-line a bit more, but it wasn't really necessary.)

It would have been lovely, though, if Hermione had an opposite lesson to learn here in PoA. If doing the right thing (reporting the mysterious broom) actually cost her, if she actually felt it and if Ron and Harry didn't forgive as soon as the broom was returned. It could have been a lesson about not doing anything for a friend. About learning sometimes saying no, or disappointing a friend, is actually the best thing you can do for them. (Right over easy. Oh! A Neville moment! *g*)

It could have changed the entire trajectory.

For that, I'd be okay with letting Ron tread. He'd have his big moment in GoF, and they'd continue on from there. :)

I can see how it would have been helpful for JKR to have an emotional plot-line thought out. A sense of where her three main characters were going to go, personally and emotionally, with each book. I think that may have helped the books be, well, better.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

I was reading Harry Potter for the people who excelled, who did daring deeds or thought brilliant thoughts!

Ron in the secret chamber, on the chessboard. (PS/SS) :) For me the biggest hero is the one who does what he or she is totally unaware they're able to do until their back's against the wall. This is why I loved little Hermione lying (unnecessarily, but whatever, she was 11 *g*) to a teacher to protect Ron and Harry in the same book. And little Harry standing up to Volde!Quirrell, for that matter.

But Ron didn't "hold their hats" or just stumble around behind Harry and Hermione, he was right there beside them as they went about their adventures. He was also the glue that held Harry and Hermione together, for that matter. Harry never seemed to enjoy hanging out with Hermione on his own, and Hermione was often intimidated by Harry when he went into a tantrum. Harry did enjoy Hermione doing his homework for him, and Hermione certainly understood Harry's importance within the grand scheme of things. But Ron genuinely liked them both and they liked him.

As it was Rowling *did* try to mature Ron...

Actually, I think she pushed him back. Ron, previous to HBP was a much more mature boy than in HBP, or the Ron who appeared in DH. Previous to DH, Ron called both Harry and Hermione on their crap when they got the bit a little too firmly between their teeth (telling Harry to not take his rage out on him and Hermione, making sure Hermione wasn't able to manipulate the house elves). He also dealt with his two friends snubbing him socially and snubbing his own growth with quidditch. (Neither Harry nor Hermione cared that they belonged to a club where Ron need not apply. Harry couldn't be assed to help Ron practice his quidditch. They missed his big win in the end.)

And the wonderful thing was, he didn't care! Ron was briefly disappointed that they'd missed his win, but he brushed it off and concentrated on what was important. (I think this was in OotP? So the important thing was Hagrid's brother, iirc.)

Frankly, I think it's notable that JKR had to force Ron back into the boy he was before he won the quidditch match in order for him to fit with Hermione and Harry. As I said to Magpie below, she started with promising characters then squashed them all down as the series progressed.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Ron in the secret chamber, on the chessboard.

Sure, Ron's uselessness isn't totally black and white; he had his moments. Well, two; the chess board way back in book 1, and then standing between Harry and a murderous Sirius Black in PoA, I guess. But they were few and far between. And more than cancelled out by his deficiencies.

But Ron didn't "hold their hats" or just stumble around behind Harry and Hermione, he was right there beside them as they went about their adventures.

Like a lead weight? :-)

Okay, it wasn't that bad, but he didn't bring much skill to the table, unlike the other two.

He was also the glue that held Harry and Hermione together, for that matter.

Ugh. I won't accept that. I've heard it before from fans trying to prop up Ron, but no. I think a much more valid point is that Harry held Ron and Hermione together; he was really their only common interest. That's why any R/Hr relationship is doomed to quickly evaporate once Harry leaves the picture.

You've got a point with the "Harry never seemed to enjoy hanging out with Hermione on his own" thing - Harry's thinking that life with Hermione involved a lot of hanging about in the library, and fewer jokes, was it, following Ron's first betrayal in GoF? - but just the one. The "Hermione intimidated by Harry" thing is vastly overrated; Harry intimidated *everyone* in OotP! Hermione was the only one who pushed back, who kept trying. The one who resisted the most.

Actually, I think she pushed him back. Ron, previous to HBP was a much more mature boy than in HBP, or the Ron who appeared in DH.

All three of them suffered horribly in the last two books, don't you think? But the plots of the final two novels were so bad I find it hard to take anything in the final third of the series seriously these days. :-(

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

...but he didn't bring much skill to the table, unlike the other two.

What skill did Harry bring? An odd thing (of many!) in regards to these books is that Harry really isn't that skilled himself. He's the proverbial dumb jock. Really good at his sport, but pretty useless with everything else. (Well, he's apparently really good at DADA, but that's more said than shown...everything he does others end up doing as well, except dying-ish.)

But then, I wasn't really looking for skill from the kids. I mean, I might have if they'd developed along that way, but JKR made it pretty clear early on that skill wasn't a thing she was interested in. I think it was more connections (get into the right house, hook up with the right family, win the right mentor) and Ron brought the Wizarding World to the table. Which (much as I hate the WW) wasn't nothing.

I think a much more valid point is that Harry held Ron and Hermione together; he was really their only common interest.

Yet, we see Ron and Hermione enjoying any time they spend with each other. Harry is always annoyed when he's left with Hermione. I'm not saying this means Ron and Hermione are starcrossed lovers, but they had more of a friendship than Hermione and Harry were ever shown to have.

The "Hermione intimidated by Harry" thing is vastly overrated; Harry intimidated *everyone* in OotP! Hermione was the only one who pushed back, who kept trying. The one who resisted the most.

I disagree with that. Harry pulled a fit and Hermione left, obviously upset, and Ron stayed behind, against Harry's wishes, to tell him to leave off bugging the two of them. Whenever Harry gets angry, Hermione backs down. Sometimes Ron backs down too, but if someone is written as standing up to him, it's generally Ron. (As it's generally Ron who praises Hermione when she pulls out a win of some sort for the Trio.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

What skill did Harry bring? An odd thing (of many!) in regards to these books is that Harry really isn't that skilled himself.

Yes, I thought of that when I wrote my last post, fondly remembering my impressions of HP back before HBP came out, when we all - well, some of us - thought that Harry was, indeed, a 'powerful wizard', that he would have some above-average skills, a 'power the dark lord knows not', etc.

But you're right. Rowling, in the end, proved to be really really REALLY determined to have her hero be an 'everyman', winning through on just dumb luck and the sacrifices of others.

Okay, we'll just have to agree that Hermione is the 'skilled' one. And Harry's important because he's the eponymous 'hero' of the series. :-)

Yet, we see Ron and Hermione enjoying any time they spend with each other. Harry is always annoyed when he's left with Hermione.

"enjoying any time they spend with each other" ... "always annoyed" ... you'd have to cite the specific passages to back up this claim for me, I'm afraid.

Likewise:

Harry pulled a fit and Hermione left, obviously upset, and Ron stayed behind, against Harry's wishes, to tell him to leave off bugging the two of them.

Can you tell me what book and chapter has this incident?

"Whenever Harry gets angry, Hermione backs down" ... "it's generally Ron" ...

Again, you'd have to start citing references to convince me of these generalisations.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

...you'd have to cite the specific passages to back up this claim for me, I'm afraid.

Oh, that's not going to happen. :) I gave my books away after I finished DH (I could not make myself throw them away, even though I think the series is rather toxic. Too much a book lover I suppose. *g*)

But in general: a couple of different books open with Harry joining up with Ron and Hermione already together (usually at the Weasleys, once at Sirus's house, and possibly at that hotel in Diagon Alley - though that might be movie contamination). It's generally implied that they've spent time together (they share a view on something, one of them speaking for them both) and they neither seem sick of each other.

The very few times Harry is alone with Hermione (during his fight with Ron in GoF is the one I can recall...was that the only time until DH?) we see him missing Ron and not having much fun with Hermione.

I'm not saying Harry can't stand Hermione, but he we don't see him casually hanging round with her as he does with Ron without Ron. But we do see Ron and Hermione hanging without Harry (opening of a couple of books as I said above, and also whenever Harry is off on one of his solo learning adventures).

Can you tell me what book and chapter has this incident?

Let's see, I know Harry was in the depths of a snit... I think it was OotP? That's when he arrives at Sirus's home and is furious that Ron and Hermione have been there for so long without him. He's generally angry and when they arrive at school, after a class (potions?), he's really ugly at them and Hermione rushes off. Ron hangs back and tells Harry to leave off taking his issues out on them. I think this may lead into Ron saying Hermione's had an idea of how to deal with Umbridge? Something like that. :D

Unfortunately, generalizations are all I have. But, my general impression throughout the books, was that Harry was closer to Ron than to Hermione, and Ron was more aware of Hermione than Harry was.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, generalizations are all I have.

Without specific examples to back up your claims your case is weakened a lot, of course. And there are several pro-H/Hr scenes with just Harry and Hermione sharing a moment to easily counteract your 'general impression'. So we remain in disagreement on this matter. :-)

But I'm rather relieved that you gave your books away (!), because had you come up with specific cases - here, Brad, here's your proof, scenes A, B, C, ... Z ... then I fear I would have been the first to cave. Because, these days, no way would I bother to plumb the books anew to research a topic as broad as "count the times Harry was with Ron/Hermione on his own", etc. I haven't given my books away but I haven't read them more than once either ... and I don't want to!

So I'm glad you didn't go to a lot of trouble only to have me turn around and concede you a time-costly victory. You might have spent hours, days, weeks researching the topic, re-reading all seven books, only to have me send a quick "I can't be bothered, you win" reply in response! :-)

(Perhaps we could both sub-contract our research to oryx_leucoryx, who seems to have memorised the entire series, it seems to me!)

As it stands, though, I don't think your generalisations suffice. Apart from the pro H/Hr stuff there's also the point that Hermione might have been invited to join the Weasleys as company for Ginny - the sole girl in that family - as well as being Ron's friend. We know that Hermione got close enough to Ginny to be used as the latter's informant and advisor as to how to best snare Harry; that apparently spread over a couple of years. So Hermione's usually being with the Weasleys before Harry turns up (for who knows how long, it might have been only a day or less) isn't that big a deal in this regard.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

...there's also the point that Hermione might have been invited to join the Weasleys as company for Ginny...

Hermione does hang with Ginny, yes. They share a room at the Weasleys and the WW is pretty strict about boy-chores and girl-chores, so they're often sharing tasks. But when it comes to Hogwarts stuff, and Harry's adventures, Hermione and Ron chat. (Another example, Ron warns Hermione off calling Harry after his disaster in CoS, pre-Hogwarts arrival -- so they are used to conversing without Harry around and without school as an excuse.)

It's not a big deal, though. I do agree on that. It's only there to show that Hermione and Ron are friends, not just strangers putting up with each other for the sake of Harry.

[sunnyskywalker]

Didn't Harry come into the common room in PS/SS to find Ron and Hermione playing chess? I can't remember which chapter. But anyway, voluntarily hanging out without Harry around, and apparently not being bored or annoyed. Which isn't a lot, but then frankly I don't think any of these three seem like such great friends to each other.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

...frankly I don't think any of these three seem like such great friends to each other.

I was just thinking about that. I don't know how much of this is sour grapes on my part (I don't like these characters anymore, so I'm probably harsher than I'd otherwise be), but why does Hermione hang with these boys? They're into sports and goofing off, and she's just not. She's not a tomboy hanging with the guys that get her sport interests. But she's also not hanging with fellow spell-geeks. What do they talk about when there's not a mystery to be solved? And why do they enjoy her company? She actively looks down on their interests and they actively could care less about hers. It doesn't make sense.

Harry and Ron's friendship... I think that actually works in that they're both quidditch mad, both like finding reasons to do as little as possible, and their personalities click (Harry needs someone totally loyal, and I think Ron likes being appreciated for his total loyalty). But, I can also see Harry getting closer to his fellow quidditch players (of skill), and Ron getting closer to friends who aren't such work.

[oryx_leucoryx]

As you say Harry and Ron clicked from the beginning. While in principle Harry could have gotten together with the other Quidditch players, until OOTP they were older kids who already were close friends (the twins with Lee, the three girls) and in HBP he was team captain in a turbulent year (team members getting caught in Draco's assassination plots and needing replacement). Also, Ron and Hermione stuck with him regardless of his status in general - even when he was suspected as heir of Slytherin or a nonsense-spouting lunatic.

As for Hermione - it seems as though pre-troll she had no friends whatsoever (not even Neville whom she started mothering on the train) and apparently she never acquired, let alone cultivated any other friends besides Ginny and Viktor. I think in 5th year she got to know the other prefects better - I think she was the one who invited them to the DA. But it is strange she didn't form any friendships with students outside Gryffindor - after all she did take Arithmancy and Ancient Runes with someone - didn't she find any kindred spirits there?

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

IIRC at one point during a DA meeting a Ravenclaw is struck by Hermione's cleverness. Which was both cool in that it gave Hermione a boost, but... shouldn't that have already been known?

I think the characters ceased to exist once they left the page for JKR. So she didn't think about what things would unfold from their off-page experiences.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's one of the things I always sort of chuckled about in the text where it says "there are some experiences you just don't go through w/o becoming friends." Because it's basically saying "They're friends now even though they actually wouldn't have any more reason to be friends now." For the obvious proof of this, there's Neville, Luna and even Ginny in OotP. You'd think that fight at the MoM would make them friends, but Harry never starts hanging out with Neville and Luna the way he does Hermione. They're friends in that he heartily approves of them both, but he doesn't suddenly seek out the shy, unsporty guy and the flake for everyday hanging out.

Ginny he starts hanging out with when she develops qualities that he likes to hang out with like insulting people on his behalf and reassuring him of his superiority. Focus on Harry is the main quality his friends have in common. Neville and Luna are always too unconcerned about him.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

For the obvious proof of this, there's Neville, Luna and even Ginny in OotP. You'd think that fight at the MoM would make them friends...

I remember expecting that. That we'd see a much larger cast in the next book. Or that at least Neville and Luna and Ginny would form their own trio. (Didn't they get a title of some sort from fans? Like mini-Trio or something?)

But, unfortunately, I think a lot of the stuff in the books are more designated than designed.