Philosopher's Stone Chapter Ten

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

It's Hallowe'en!

 

Hallowe’en

 

*The chapter opens with a view through the Malfoy filter!  How often does that happen in canon?  Half Blood Prince should have been from Malfoy’s POV...

 

*Harry and Ron are true Gryffindors.  Any near death experience is an excellent adventure and hours later they want more of the same!

 

*Nearly all the protection around the mysterious object sums up Hogwarts security in general when indeed, there is any in place at all.  It looks impressive, but really, a child could easily break through and a non magical child at that.

 

*Hmm Neville is not keen on another brush with death... should he be in Gryffindor?  I am inclined to think not.

 

*Yay!  Hermione’s not speaking to them.  This must be the pinnacle of Harry’s fortunes in the series because now he is also given the gift of the Nimbus 2000 in front of the entire student body.  But Harry is still the underdog here, just so we are clear on that.

 

*Really Malfoy, what else would be in a long cylindrical package other than a broomstick... :p

 

*Ron is basking in the reflected glory of the Nimbus 2000.  How kind of Harry to give Ron a little reflected glory from time to time.  Pity the poor twerp won’t always appreciate it.

 

*Take that Malfoy, even the head of Ravenclaw house believes Potter deserves this open display of favouritism.  You shouldn’t try and compete with him, in the Potterverse he will always win.

 

*And go and boil your head Hermione, Harry can do what he likes when the universe centres around him.

 

*It really is weird how success at Quidditch depends entirely on how expensive a player’s equipment is.  Not on their merit or hard work at all.  It would have been a lot more accomplished of JKR to have made the Hogwarts sport soccer... soccer may be a tedious game, but at least it doesn’t have that bizarre quality of one’s equipment being all that matters.

 

*So here’s the Quidditch pitch.  The need for practice three times a week could be averted if all the team had expensive brooms.

 

*And it isn’t necessary for Harry to learn all the rules of Quidditch.  He will be the only player on the team who matters.  It can be summed up by “catch the shiny object.” Great plot device JKR.

 

*Harry could be better than Charlie who could have played for England... but there is an anomaly in the timeline so it is impossible to discern whether Charlie is three years or eight years older than Percy.  If he is only three years older than Percy, Gryffindor has not won the cup since Charlie was in his second year at Hogwarts.

 

*I wonder if the basics to Harry’s lessons were like those in the ladybird junior magicians guide book – ie only learning about the colour, length and texture of your wand...

 

*The castle is now Harry’s only true home... just as Dumblesnore planned.

 

*Really Neville, you should only expect to be Harry’s bootlicker, not his partner... even though you turn out to be very much more heroic than he is.  Kind of sad really.

 

*They’re still wearing hats here, but it looks like JKR just forgot that she included hats early in the series so they disappear with no explanation.

 

*I would be more than angry at being expected to work with Hermione.  I would most likely just leave the classroom.

 

*How would Hermione have got on at Malory Towers? ;)

 

*Live bats for decoration.  Cool.  I wonder why the anniversary of the fall of Voldemort is not commemorated explicitly.  Everyone could be forced to sing Harry a song acknowledging how he really is the centre of their universe.

 

*Troll in the dungeons... that sounds more impressive than it actually turns out to be.

 

*Harry is a true Gryffindor here once again and Ron a true sidekick.  They want another dangerous adventure for no readily explicable reason.  It’s what they’ve been waiting for since seeing Fluffy.

 

*What’s Snape doing?  Well we’ll just have to wait to find out.  Oh the suspense.

 

*Great idea, lock the troll in with Hermione, they will be very happy together...

 

*No really, it’s all for the best, don’t barge into the bathroom now... argh!

 

*Actually Hermione’s not nearly so insufferable here when it’s clear she is no use at all in a crisis.  Much more tolerable than when she becomes a weird sort of ruthless superhuman in the later series.  At least here she seems easy to off.

 

*So Hermione makes it sound as though the three of them went looking for the troll together when actually none of them had.  Just as well McGonagall is a Gryffindor – hence a character who admires recklessness.

 

*Yes Harry, Hermione would not have needed saving if you had not locked the troll in with her.  Which is why you should have left them locked in the bathroom together.  Think what the rest of the series would have been like then. 

 

*When I first read this it did seem bizarre - especially given Harry’s insularity - that this character with whom he and Ron have nothing in common should not only become their friend after the troll vignette, but also stick to them like glue afterwards.  Malfoy doesn’t become Harry’s friend even though they both see Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest.  It was explained later by JKR telling us that Hermione is like a self-insert of hers.  It was authorial fiat.

Comments

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

If it were any other kids' series, Harry and Malfoy would have worked out their problems by the end of the first book. I get that he's supposed to be Harry's Ethel Hallow, but imho, at some point it becomes kind of stupid that they aren't friends.

Why would they be friends? The first time Harry and Draco meet, Draco talks about "bullying father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in somehow". The rest of the conversation is Harry saying "no" to various questions while Draco goes on about "I" this and "me" that. When Harry disagrees with Draco's assesment of Hagrid, Draco sneers at him. When Harry says his parents are dead, Draco says sorry "not sounding very sorry at all". Then he states "some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they got they're letter. Imagine." Which is Harry. He's never heard of Hogwarts, knows little to nothing of the world he's entering but it's better than what he's known. Now this boy his age is cleary stating that there's something wrong with him and he doesn't belong.

Now, granted, Ron has the advantage of knowing who Harry is before getting into a conversation with him. But, they quickly turn to talking about thier families and Ron wasn't rude from the get-go. At no point does Draco attempt to be nice to Harry.

Harry and Ron may not have liked Hermione, but they didn't really go out of there way to be rude, she kept butting in on them. And when they made a mistake (teasing her to the point it hurt her feelings) and realized they'd put her in danger, they tried to help her. Somehow, I don't see Draco trying to rescue anyone he put in danger...

[oryx_leucoryx]

The comparison isn't Draco vs Ron but Draco vs Hermione. The point is Hermione is no less offensive than Draco. But somehow facing the troll together (but not Fluffy) brings them together while facing the unicorn killer in the forest doesn't bring Harry and Draco together. I suppose the unicorn killer is more like Fluffy than the troll - the kids observe them together and fear them but don't defeat them so they don't become friends. Only defeating a threat together turns annoying offensive people into your friends.

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

When was Hermione offensive? I grant you the annoying, which seems more like an only child who doesn't know how to make friends. But when was she offensive? The only thing I can come up with is her attitude, which is in no way as downright rude as Malfoy. She offers unwanted comments and advice, but she's merely trying to use the inteligence she's gained. She doesn't deliberatly insult others and when she realizes she's offended people, she's sorry for it. Draco never once even pretends to be sorry.

Also, she sees Harry and Ron in a different light after the troll. Instead of two boys in her class, they become two boys who risked there lives to save hers. The boys, in turn, see how she sacrifices her reputation with a teacher to get them out of trouble, even though the whole thing was partially thier own fault. The unicorn scene? Malfoy "bolted". Ran for all he was worth with Fang and left Harry to deal with the creature himself. Had Malfoy stuck around and tried to help Harry, or even tried to drag Harry along, maybe a friendship would have been possible. But why fault Harry for not being friends with someone who left him to die for all they knew? Remember, yes they are eleven, but Harry has been through a scary, life threatening situation before and had a friend stick by him through it. (Ron) So, from his point of veiw, Malfoy running away and then NOT RETURNING doesn't speak well. Hermione comes running up when Harry's with Firenze to check on her friend. Hagrid is with her. Draco? Isn't mentioned. There's no "Draco pointed us this way", "Draco insisted we help you". So, when, exactly, does Draco show any signs of being good friend material?

Draco and Hermione

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Draco doesn't particularly show any signs of being exemplary friend material. But Hermione does so to an even lesser extent. One can see authorial fiat at work.

Re: Draco and Hermione

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

She helped out a stranger (Neville looking for his toad). That's something more than being condenscending from the start, but to each their own interpetation. Hermione certainly seems like the better friend to me.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Draco was just a bit socially clumsy, being a homeschooled only child. But at least he talked about something another boy might be expected to relate to (sports) - it just so happened he was speaking to a boy who was unfamiliar with that particular sport. Hermione starts by telling Harry what wizarding history books say about him and telling him what she would have wanted to find out in his place, then went on to challenge Ron about that spell he was trying on Scabbers.

She doesn't deliberatly insult others and when she realizes she's offended people, she's sorry for it.

I can't remember Hermione being sorry for offending people, I can recall her being self-righteous (if you have examples I'll be glad to see them). Mostly I remember Hermione worrying about getting in trouble but I can't remember her regretting anything she did simply because it was wrong. After Harry chose Ron over him on the train Draco stopped trying to befriend Harry but he did make 2 attempts, the first without even knowing who Harry was.

The boys, in turn, see how she sacrifices her reputation with a teacher to get them out of trouble, even though the whole thing was partially thier own fault.

Hermione's lie was so stupid and superfluous, that the boys took it that way doesn't say anything good about them. Had Hermione told the truth the boys wouldn't have gotten in trouble (what for?) and she wouldn't have lost those 5 points. Hermione lied so she could at least have the image of reckless Gryffindorishness even if she couldn't (yet) live up to it.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

When was Hermione offensive? I grant you the annoying, which seems more like an only child who doesn't know how to make friends.

If Hermione is excused because of being an only child, Draco ought to be able to use that as well. He's an only child (although he seems to have already made two friends). If you step away from the Harry filter a little, it's easy to see that Draco is just trying (desperately!) to make conversation with Harry. Since Harry is starved for friends, you'd think he'd have appreciated it--but of course he doesn't trust friendliness, and he's already half made up his mind that Draco is another Dudley. (Maybe that's where I got the idea that he was blond? Dudley was blond.)

Now, Draco is quite offensive on the train, but he does offer to be Harry's friend. I certainly don't blame Harry for turning him down, but I always thought it was interesting that Draco makes the effort.

As for Hermione offending people... I seem to remember her being rather insulting and dismissive of Luna during OotP. Hermione's barely civil to her even in HBP, when she needs Luna to publish Rita Skeeter's interview with Harry. She's also pretty rude to Rita--in addition to kidnapping and blackmailing her.

Hermione is also rude to Ron. Most of the time. The only time she ever seems sorry about that is when he's lying in a coma in the hospital.

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

Draco might be able to use the only child thing, which is fine, but he doesn't mature beyond that for years, if ever. Certainly not in time for him and Harry to be friends in first year.

But the Harry filter is WHY they didn't become friends. I'm not trying to say (and didn't think I had) that Draco deserved being shunned completely regardless. And no, being starved for friends does not make you be friends with people you see as being rude from the start. Friends who wind up being rude, yes, but not rude from word one.

I think by the train Draco realized who Harry was and wanted to be friends with "the boy who lived", not Harry.

Personally, Rita deserved it, but yeah, Hermione seems to forget what it's like to be picked on by others with her treatment of Luna. I thought she should some regret, could be wrong.

The Ron stuff I saw more as just the teasing friends do. *shrug*

[oryx_leucoryx]

Draco of DH is a very mature young man (to whom Neville owes a huge debt). But the only kid who is mature to any degree in PS is Neville. The difference between Harry and Draco in PS isn't one of maturity. It isn't one of morality either. It is a rivalry that got entrenched via the House system and the generation-crossing alliances on which Wizarding Britain is built.

I think by the train Draco realized who Harry was and wanted to be friends with "the boy who lived", not Harry.

Doesn't the same apply to Ron?

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"But when was she offensive? The only thing I can come up with is her attitude, which is in no way as downright rude as Malfoy. She offers unwanted comments and advice, but she's merely trying to use the inteligence she's gained."

Isn't that what Malfoy's doing on the train, though? As far as he's concerned, some wizarding families are better than others, and he, Draco Malfoy, will be able to help Harry make friends with the right ones. We think that's rude because we come from a society where that sort of prejudice is frowned upon; but Malfoy, coming from a family of racists and probably having been home-schooled (which would mean that he wouldn't have been exposed to anybody with different views on the matter), wouldn't know any better.

(I still think it's rude for him to say that in front of Ron, BTW; I just wanted to point out that, from Draco's POV, he's probably just being helpful.)

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

But there's a percieved difference. Hermione is talking about school stuff, Draco is insulting people. Both are types of intellegence, but one is more easy to forgive. I really don't think Draco was trying to be helpful. It came off to me as "I'm obviously a better friend, get in with these other two now, kthxbai."

[oryx_leucoryx]

See To Much There, chapter 2 where Draco gets a chance to explain his behavior at Madam Malkin's (because Severus is the one accompanying Harry).

Neither Draco nor Hermione are intentionally offensive to Harry initially, but both understandably rub him the wrong way. It comes down to Hermione turning out to be useful to him (and Harry and Ron feeling guilty for inadvertently endangering her).

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Hey, I quite like that fic. :)

I think this part is especially interesting: "What I’d add to Duj’s analysis is that Draco saw Harry come in—dressed as a Muggle. So Draco must have thought he was talking to his first-ever Muggle-born, those fabulous, exotic, maybe dangerous creatures his parents have always warned him against. He tried desperately to connect with him; only after Harry had repulsed all of his best endeavors did Draco decide his family was right all along, you couldn’t even TALK to those people. Only then did he start asking if the stranger, Harry, were “our kind”. Which he already ‘knew’ he wasn’t; by then, he was deliberately attempting to get a rise out of the boy who wouldn’t even talk civilly to him."

[robina1984.livejournal.com]

...A fanfic. Um. Okay. Obviously I misunderstood something. I thought this was about why, in canon, Draco and Harry didn't become friends. Sorry about that and I shall bow out of this conversation. Once you use a fanfic to prove a point, nothing can be accomplished in a discussion. Please accept my apologizes for not getting this.

*goes back to lurking*

[oryx_leucoryx]

"A model is a lie that helps one see the truth" - Picasso.

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, to elaborate - some fanfics get you to think about other ways of seeing the canon characters. We know how Draco came across to Harry, but how did Harry come across to Draco? Did Draco's comment about reserving Hogwarts to people from wizarding families come completely out of nowhere or was there something about Harry's behavior that triggered it?

[lissa2.livejournal.com]

(because Severus is the one accompanying Harry)

And in canon Snape wasn't anywhere near Harry when he went to Diagon Ally with Hagrid. Therefore, any attempt by this fanfic to explain the motivation/behavior of canon!Draco (or any other canon character) fails automatically.
You wouldn't accept a fanfic were it's Snape who tortures Frank and Alice to insanity as a legitimate reason to hate canon Snape, would you?

[oryx_leucoryx]

What has one got to do with the other? The situation at Madam Malkin's in this fic was the same as canon until the point of where in canon Hagrid shows up. By this point Draco already told Harry about his parents getting him things, already asked Harry about Quidditch and Houses, already told Harry how he thought of Slytherin vs Hufflepuff, and Harry already decided Draco reminded him of Dudley. What Harry doesn't know is what Draco thought of him. We don't know for a fact what Draco was thinking and why he was saying what he said in canon. This fic raises the possibility that Draco thought *Harry* was the one in the wrong, and that his reasons for thinking so were as legitimate as Harry's reasons for thinking badly of Draco. Both were judging strangers who grew up under very different situations based on their own respective experiences.

You wouldn't accept a fanfic were it's Snape who tortures Frank and Alice to insanity as a legitimate reason to hate canon Snape, would you?


If I read a fic in which Severus tortures the Longbottoms I would take the author as interpreting Severus' canon interaction with Neville as the result of guilt. Or I would wonder if the author expected the interactions between Severus and Neville during Neville's school years to be the same as in canon or different. That's what a good AU-fic does - makes one think about the 'what-ifs'.

[lissa2.livejournal.com]

"The situation at Madam Malkin's in this fic was the same as canon until the point of where in canon Hagrid shows up"

Um yes, and by doing that this fanfic makes Draco more sympathetic in this scene by conveniently omitting his remarks on Hagrid and his remark about Harry's parents. Remarks that contributed to Harry's negative impression on Draco.
As an AU "what if" kind of fic, this fic is fine and interesting. But as an explanation to canon!Draco's behavior in the canon Madam Malkin scene, this fic doesn't do the job.

[oryx_leucoryx]

But Harry thought Draco reminded him of Dudley even before the remark about Hagrid. It was Harry's first impression of Draco when the latter mentioned his parents running errands for him and when he speaks of smuggling a broom into Hogwarts.

[oryx_leucoryx]

But as an explanation to canon!Draco's behavior in the canon Madam Malkin scene, this fic doesn't do the job.

I don't see why not. Draco's comments about Hagrid don't require special explanation - Draco was repeating what he heard at home (which happened to be the truth in this case). Harry is defensive about Hagrid because of his dealings with the Dursleys, but one doesn't need to be particularly nasty to not be impressed with him. As for Harry's parents - do you mean Draco not appearing very sorry about their death or the part about keeping people from Muggle families out of Hogwarts? The former, while hurtful to Harry is again not so hard to understand. Learning that a total stranger you just met is an orphan is awkward. As for the latter - since Draco already decided Harry had no manners (because of his inability to make conversation) Draco decided Harry confirmed the stereotype of an ill-mannered Mudblood who didn't know his place and wasn't worth his effort. That was the first time Draco became antagonistic to Harry - after he was rebuffed by him several times. The claim is that until that point Draco was trying to make friendly conversation, not that the entire encounter is Draco's attempt at making friendly conversation.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"And in canon Snape wasn't anywhere near Harry when he went to Diagon Ally with Hagrid."

I don't think his whereabouts on that day are mentioned, are they? So it's not impossible that he was in Diagon Alley that day, but didn't run into Harry.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I think Hermione was (unintentionally) offensive to Harry when she rattled on about what the history books say about him, or when she bragged about her spellwork. She was doing what Draco did at the start of his conversation with Harry - made him feel like he did not belong because he didn't know what was going on and how things worked.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"At no point does Draco attempt to be nice to Harry."

Well, he attempts to strike up a friendship with Harry in Madam Malkin's, even though he doesn't yet know who he is (he is, I think, the only person in the books to do this). Bear in mind, too, that Harry would still be wearing Dudley's hand-me-downs, so he'd probably look quite scruffy and ridiculous, especially to a boy who spent all his childhood living a sheltered life in his family's estate. Not every eleven-year-old would try and make friends with Harry if they were in Draco's situation; that Draco himself does is, I think, rather nice of him.

"The rest of the conversation is Harry saying "no" to various questions while Draco goes on about "I" this and "me" that."

To be fair to Draco, he does try and involve Harry in the conversation (he asks him about brooms, Quidditch, which House Harry thinks he'll be sorted into, Hagrid, and Harry's family); it's not his fault that Harry's so non-communicative.

Also, I don't see how Draco's gossiping about Hagrid ("I've heard he's a sort of savage") is any worse than Ron's gossiping about the Malfoys ("My dad says they didn't need an excuse to go over to the Dark Side") or Hagrid's ("Bad blood, the lot of 'em"). Alright, I can see why Harry might think it's different, but it's not really, and it would be nice for the books to recognise that at some point.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

And Hagrid is a savage. Even the staff don't let him live in the castle (although they turn a blind eye to the 11-year-olds who regularly visit his hut for purposes unknown...), he drinks heavily, acts like a moron, and raises dangerous wild animals without regard for the hundreds of children in his care.

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

Somehow, I don't see Draco trying to rescue anyone he put in danger...

He saves Goyle in DH.
(If we're going by latter canon, Hermione is also a lot ruder socially, although obviously that's irrelevant to her friendship with Harry, since it's already formed at that point.)

That, and befriending an enemy is a classic children's book trope. And it seemed like there was set-up for it with these two in particular: Draco initially trying to befriend Harry, their storylines ending up mirroring each other, the whole thing about the houses needing to unite...

There was some discussion of Draco and Harry's meeting a couple of posts back, if you're interested:
http://community.livejournal.com/deathtocapslock/108539.html?thread=3817723#t3817723