COS Chapter Seven: "Mudbloods and Murmurs"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

 

* Collin’s really acting like an obsessive stalker here. I wonder if that’s how Harry appeared to Draco in HBP?

* Ron’s malfunctioning wand actually sounds quite dangerous, but nobody thinks it might be a good idea to replace it. Although OTOH having a lax attitude towards safety seems to be one of the few things about the WW that seems consistent throughout the books (they’ll show it again when Percy tries to stop people using dangerous cauldrons), so maybe I should be thankful that it isn’t just one of these things that changes whenever the plot demands.

* I assume that JKR’s just forgotten to mention the try-outs that every Quidditch team apparently does each year.

* I’m just going to tune out while Harry recaps the rules of Quidditch for Collin.

* Everyone’s not bothering to pay attention to Wood’s new tactics. Remember kids, teamwork’s for suckers! You just do what you want to do!

* Wood is still upset over Gryffindor losing last year. Serves him right for being too thick to have a reserve Seeker, IMHO.

* Note how Wood’s first reaction upon seeing Collin is to jump to the conclusion that he’s a Slytherin spy. Not that he’s in any way biased against Slytherin, or anything like that.

* Remember chaps, looking like a troll = evil. Part-giant, OTOH, = misunderstood woobie. Even though trolls don’t really seem much worse than giants.

* There are no girls on the Slytherin team, just to remind everyone that they’re sexist, and therefore evil. JKR hates sexism, which is why she took care to include so many liberated, independent-minded women in the novels.

* Wood’s “spitting with rage” now. Christ, Oliver, calm down, it’s not the end of the world. Maybe the Gryffindor and Slytherin teams could just play a friendly, or something.

* “Aren’t you Lucius Malfoy’s son?” says Fred, looking at Draco with dislike. Remember kids, it’s wrong to judge people based on their family.

* Is it possible to smirk so broadly that your eyes are “reduced to slits”, or is Draco actually grinning with happiness here?

* I don’t think that Malfoy did buy his way onto the team. For a start, Seeker is the most (i.e., only) important position in the game, and I don’t think that flying on better brooms would compensate for having an inferior Seeker. Secondly, he’s on the team for at least three years, when the Slytherins could easily have ditched him as soon as they’d got the brooms. They’d even have had a good excuse after losing that Quidditch match in “The Rogue Bludger”.

* Lucius seemed like quite a harsh, demanding father when we saw him in Borgin and Burke’s, IMHO, so the thought that he’s pleased daddy enough to make him buy new brooms for the team is probably making Draco grin even more.

* I bet he looks adorable in this scene.

* Now I can’t stop thinking of Lauren Lopez in A Very Potter Sequel. “Don’t worry, daddy, you’ll love me after this! I’ll catch that Snitch, mark my words!”

* Just thought it interesting to note that Malfoy wasn’t involved in the conversation until Ron brought him in. It’s not like he was strutting up and down, boasting about his new broom, or anything like that.

* Hermione’s the one who starts with the personal insults. Really, I think that the good [sic] guys are acting worse than the baddies here.

* If the theory that Draco’s really just happy because he’s finally made his daddy proud is right, then implying that he’d just bought his way onto the team is probably one of the most offensive things Hermione could say. Unsurprisingly, he responds with one of the most offensive things that he could say.

* Draco calls Hermione a “Mudblood”, despite the fact that she’s a Muggleborn, and therefore cannot be expected to know what it means, suggesting that either she’s upset him so much he’s not thinking straight, or that he wants to keep face in front of his teammates by responding to her insults, but at the same time doesn’t want to upset her. If the latter, it could be evidence for some kind of D/Hr ship.

* JKR seems to be expecting us to go “ZOMG Draco’s an evil racist!” suggesting that she’s forgotten why exactly it is that racism’s considered so wrong. I don’t think it’s just that you’re looking down on people for the way they were born – if it were, then jokes about stupid blondes would be considered as bad as jokes about stupid black people. Rather, it’s wrong because minorities often suffer from discrimination (and in many cases have suffered from it even more in the relatively recent past), and racist language helps to reinforce and normalise the prejudiced attitudes which lead to such discrimination. Because we haven’t really see people suffering from anti-Muggleborn prejudice, it’s hard to think of “Mudblood” as a particularly serious insult.

* This, BTW, is why I disagree with people who say things like “Rowling uses the Harry Potter books to teach children not to be racist.” If she were really doing that, she’d show how racism affects people’s lives (cf. To Kill a Mockingbird). What she’s actually doing is taking real racism and using it in lieu of actual worldbuilding and characterisation. We already know that racism is wrong, and we think Draco’s a bad person because his use of the term “Mudblood” is superficially similar to real-life examples of racism; we don’t learn about how racism is bad from its effects on HP characters, because it doesn’t really have any.

* Anyway, back to the actual story…

* Once again, the good guys are the first to use force. Why am I not surprised?

* I think it’s sweet the way Flint dives in front of Malfoy to stop him being attacked. The Slytherins often seem to look out for each other the most (see also Lucius patting Snape on the back when he’s first Sorted). Contrast this with the Gryffindors in PS, who refuse to speak to Harry, Hermione, Ron or Neville after they lose some House Points.

* What’s this, one of the good guys has suffered some negative consequences as a result of attacking someone else? Hold on while I go make a note of this in my diary.

* Again with the clothes! Lockhart’s wearing robes of “palest mauve” today. Harry’s really starting to look rather gay now; given JKR’s fondness for stereotypes (viz. the Finnegans) and inability to write a decent romance (chest monster!), I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find her way of showing homosexuality would be having someone spend all their time looking at their crush’s clothes.

* Note how Hagrid doesn’t remonstrate with Ron for trying to curse Malfoy. Clearly he’s a responsible adult and an excellent candidate for a prestigious teaching position.

* I know Hagrid doesn’t like Lockhart, but he really should know better than to undermine him like that in front of his pupils.

* So the jinx on DADA has been in place for what, forty or so years now? And people are only just starting to twig? I know wizards are slow learners, but really…

* Also, couldn’t Dumbledore find ways to either discover how Riddle jinxed the position and undo it somehow, or to get around it, such as hiring two teachers who each teach on alternate years or getting rid of DADA and replacing it with a class which is functionally indistinguishable but has a different name (“battle magic”, perhaps?).

* I think that this scene was one which the film actually did better than the books. Yes, having Hermione getting all upset may not have been fully logical, but it at least made Draco look like a hurtful bully rather than an eccentric crank. It also suggested that someone might have called Hermione that before, hinting at actual day-to-day anti-Muggleborn prejudice, which is more than the books ever managed to do.

* “Maybe it was a good thing yer wand backfired.” Wait, is Hagrid glad that Ron got to be on the receiving end in the hope that he’ll be less likely to curse people in future? No, of course not, he’s worrying that Ron might otherwise have got in trouble.

* Hagrid comes across as so judgemental when he says “’Spect Lucius Malfoy would’ve come marchin’ up ter school if yeh’d cursed his son.” Clearly, caring about your children being attacked is a sign of great evil. Good guys know that being randomly hexed is what makes a man out of you.

* Although Lucius doesn’t seem to have done much when Draco was hexed into unconsciousness on the train (twice!), which probably foreshadows the Redeemed!Malfoys situation at the end of DH.

* Hagrid’s been breaking the law to make his pumpkins grow faster. Which couldn’t possibly be dangerous in any way, oh no.

* Suddenly, Draco’s gossip about him getting drunk and setting his bed on fire looks awfully plausible.

* Everybody hates Filch, which is entirely understandable, given all the times he complains about having to clean up the mess children make and, erm, gives them detention for breaking the rules. Yep, entirely understandable.

* So how does Parseltongue work, then? ’Cause surely Lockhart ought to have heard it, even if he didn’t understand what it was saying? Or is it a sort of telepathy? But then Ron managed to speak it in DH…

* Awfully convenient the way the basilisk goes around describing its evil plan to itself, isn’t it? Do basilisks just have really bad memories, and need to keep repeating their plans to themselves in case they forget?

* Part of me can’t help but feel pleased that Ron vomited slugs over that trophy. Maybe next time he’ll think twice before hexing someone. Or not.
 

 

Comments

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"Because seriously- exposing Snape's underwear? Hoisting him upside and leaving him choking on bubbles? Turning Draco into a ferret and hurling him into walls? Any number of things the Twins did (especially with Montague, who ended up brain-dead, apparently). That's all PERFECTLY FINE because none of it was 'Dark'. God, talk about double-standard."

I used to quite like the Ferret!Draco scene, because I thought it was good to see the evil bully get his comeuppance. Then I actually started to use my critical thinking facilities on HP, and realised that no, it wasn't alright. Not at all. Turning Draco into a ferret and then bouncing him against the floor and ceiling is like the muggle equivalent of grabbing hold of him and slamming him repeatedly against the wall, with his best friends watching. I must say I admire Draco for only shaking after this scene; if someone had done that to my fourteen-year-old self, I'd probably have burst into tears.

As for SWM... Really, what the hell was Lily thinking in going out with James? He's just publicly humiliated her supposed best friend, and she finds that funny? And really, couldn't she have been just a little bit more understanding of Snape's "Mudblood" comment? I mean, the guy's just been totally humiliated in public, so he probably wasn't thinking straight -- and then, he practically camps outside her room to say sorry, and she won't even listen to him? And then she has the utter cheek to try and make herself out to be the victim here ("Oh, poor me, having to constantly answer my friends' questions about why I hang out with you!").

Really, I don't know what Snape saw in her. I'm glad he didn't get her, though: it was probably kinder for him to keep his idealised version of her than have to find out what a git she was.

SWM does make me question why James was made Head Boy, though. Even if he improved himself during his sixth year, there must surely have been other people who'd been model students from their first year -- why not choose one of them?

It's quite surprising that Snape didn't let slip that Lupin was a werewolf. Maybe it was because Lupin didn't actually do anything to him, and so he didn't want to ruin his life. If so, that would probably make Snape the most moral character of the series. (Not that that would be hard, mind you.)

On the plus side, Hagrid taunts Draco in GOF for the ferret incident, during which Malfoy was totally humiliated, and speaks well of James, who totally humiliated people. So that's one aspect of characterisation that remains consistent throughout the books. Trust Hagrid to get off on people being humiliated.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

As for SWM... Really, what the hell was Lily thinking in going out with James? He's just publicly humiliated her supposed best friend, and she finds that funny?

Yea, don't forget Lily fights off a smile in that moment when Severus' legs and underpants are exposed. Why was she going to smile? I thought she was so good...sooooo noble, etc. etc.

Plus we don't get to see how far the scene actually goes. When Harry is pulled out of that scene by adult Severus, James shouts who wants to see me take off his (Severus) underpants.

Did someone put a stop to it? Did Severus get help from anyone?

Notice that the only person who seems to have come to help him was Lily. I don't see where any Slytherins came to his rescue. In fact would it not be interesting to note Severus could have shouted the mudblood comment both due to his humiliation and because of 'who' was watching. It was stated to be a crowd.

Shouldn't there have been some Slytherins out there.

Besides that, there has to be a lot of male pride involved, forgetting all the House rivalry stuff and muggle/mudblood stuff. He was a male, what is it like for a boy to have to be saved by a girl? It tends to make them feel weak and James even promoted that notion by saying sarcastically that it was good (Evans) was there to save him (Severus)

Add all those things added up together and Lily wasn't able to see how the humiliation would have continued and instead just dumps him? Even the Slytherins watching would have looked at it as Severus got saved by a Gryffindor, but not only a Griff but a female no less.

It was a no win situation. No matter what Severus did or said in those moments he had to live with that scar of public humiliation forever, even taking Lily out of it still makes it bad.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Things do get very interesting when you start adding up who knew what when and realize that Severus not only never opened his mouth about Remus during his years at Hogwarts, but also must have kept mum about it *the entire time he was a DE* - when he had no pressing motivation not to use this weapon other than a basic sense of decency, and would probably have benefited from deploying it. Imagine the mischief Voldie could have made had he known that one of Dumbledore's major supporters was a werewolf, and that Dumbledore himself had 1) secretly placed all of Hogwarts at risk from that werewolf for seven years, 2) covered up an attempted murder against a student in which the same werewolf and his friends (also DD supporters) were involved, and 3) failed to update the security around the werewolf even after learning that at least two students had gotten past it without trouble.

Now, in fanfic you'll often see Dumbles putting a spell on Severus to make him keep silent...but in canon Severus has no difficulty at all spilling the secret once he decides to do it, and there is not a single hint that Dumbledore had to (or had reason to) remove any previously-cast silencing spell. Occam's razor states that Severus therefore could have told, and dealt a major blow to Dumbledore's organization, but did not.

I think this indirectly supports the reading that once inside the DEs Severus was not so enthralled with them as to actually want to see them win anymore. Either that, or that he *did* want it, and wanted to hurt Dumbles' organization too perhaps, but could not justify to himself ruining the life even of an enemy without direct provocation (recall his words to Sirius in PoA: even at the height of his frenzy he refrains from actually casting anything harmful, and repeats, "Give me a reason, and I will do it.")

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying Severus always had his head on straight about what precisely was right (I could buy part of his motivation for joining the DEs being a misguided idealism about Voldemort undoing the most blatant corruptions of the system and perhaps setting up some sort of meritocracy in which those who prize magic - and thus marry within the WW - do well). I'm also not saying that he always drew the lines between acceptable and unacceptable in his personal moral understanding in the same place that many of us do - for example, he seems to make a distinction between physical and verbal violence. But the consistent difference I see between Severus and most of the other characters that makes me think he really is one of the most *fundamentally* moral characters in the book is this bedrock sense he has that, at bottom, there are some things that are not ok to do even to people he doesn't at all like. He is able, when he tries, to put their value as people above their (negative) value to him personally, even when doing so puts him at great risk.

The scene in front of Gryffindor tower in TPT is like a lite version of this. Without any external prompting he risks humiliation and ostracism (at the very least - think of the number of people his housemates are connected to who might be in a position to grant/deny him jobs in the near future) in order to do the decent thing and apologize to the girl - his supposed friend - who *laughed* at him before he said a word, then responded to his insult not only with an insult of her own (understandable), but left him to be bullied (and forcibly exposing someone's genitals is a minor form of sexual assault). This after spending several minutes watching him choke, tied up on the ground, getting into a very public mating dance with his tormentor (as even JKR agrees it was), instead of just cutting the damn ropes and helping him. He goes to apologize for losing it at her for betraying him to his face, and makes no mention of that fact that she *also* behaved badly.

In this he is *coherent* as a character throughout the timeline - he will snarl and call you names and complain all the way, and will respond to provocation (losing control especially when humiliated), but he will lay his own life down for you when push comes to shove, no matter what you've done to him in the past. Whereas most of the characters are happy to do what's necessary to protect the people they personally care about, but will say 'you deserve whatever you get' to people they don't like, and *mean* it.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

getting into a very public mating dance with his tormentor (as even JKR agrees it was)

She did? Just- wow. I wish I'd known that when I was debating this earlier, because people kept giving me the 'Lily is a saint' BS, and it would've been handy to have that to point to. Don't suppose you have a link?

But yeah, people make such a huge fuss over Lily confronting James and yet- jeez, why not free her friend instead of leaving him in ongoing humiliation? Nice one, Lils.

And haters point to the mudblood comment as though it explains and justifies everything everyone's ever done to him in retrospect. *shakes head*

[oryx_leucoryx]

Do you know I got told there was nothing especially risky in the Gryffindor Tower vigil because it didn't take place in the dungeons in front of the Slytherins?

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/I used to quite like the Ferret!Draco scene, because I thought it was good to see the evil bully get his comeuppance./

Those are the same reactions that I had, too. The GoF movie sort of fixes this by having Moody bounce Draco up and down but never have him actually hit the ground. Moody does, to the amusement and squick of the fandom, levitate Draco into Goyle's pants, but never actually physically hurts him. And it's funny how nobody keeps in mind that it was really Barty Crouch Jr. who was doing this. None of the students, Harry included, ever reflect on the fact that it was a Death Eater who was teaching the class they loved so much, who turned Draco into a ferret.

/I must say I admire Draco for only shaking after this scene; if someone had done that to my fourteen-year-old self, I'd probably have burst into tears./

The thing is, though, if Draco *had* started to earnestly cry, then we probably wouldn't have viewed the scene in such a favorable light. Sure, there would still be people out there who would call him a pansy (the same people who called him a pansy for crying in the bathroom in HBP; yes, heaven forbid a boy actually break down about having to kill someone to save his family, whose surival depends on his success >_<), but the fact that Draco was relatively physically unscathed, and was described as being more humiliated than hurt lessens whatever outrage we may have had.

/He's just publicly humiliated her supposed best friend, and she finds that funny?/

This is why Lily was not Snape's friend. No true friend would react like that. Draco laughs at Harry, Ron, and Hermione whenever they're humiliated or embarrassed and he's a spiteful person for doing so, but Lily smiles when her own *friend* is being bullied and we're supposed to see her as the epitome of virtue?

/And really, couldn't she have been just a little bit more understanding of Snape's "Mudblood" comment? I mean, the guy's just been totally humiliated in public, so he probably wasn't thinking straight --/

I read an essay in defense of Lily and the author pointed out that if somebody's friend called them the N-word or a similar racial epithet, that person would have every right to be upset. Also, since it was said in a time of stress and the spur of the moment, the author argued that the insult showed Snape's true anti-Muggle-born prejudices. It's a tricky situation. Remember when Michael Richards, the actor who played Kramer in "Seinfeld," said the N-word after being booed by a group of African-American patrons during a show? Some people argued that he was showing his true racist colors, while other people argued that he was just throwing out the worst fitting insult he could think of because he was angry at them.

/And then she has the utter cheek to try and make herself out to be the victim here ("Oh, poor me, having to constantly answer my friends' questions about why I hang out with you!")./

That's when I really started to think that she was fickle and shallow. It'd be one thing if she and Snape were dating and he was abusive and her friends were warning her about him. Then I'd think, "Yes, you really should listen to your friends." But that's not the situation here. To me, this scenario sounds more like a case of Lily's "normal" friends not liking Snape because he's weird and he's in Slytherin. Again, if they really were best friends, Lily wouldn't care about what other people thought about him.

And you know what's worse? Lily never addresses the bullying. She *saw* what James was doing with her own eyes, and yet she never brings it up in her argument with Snape. She's ready to rail at him for calling her "Mudblood" and goes on about how he's really a bigot at heart, but she never addresses James' bullying behavior. It's as if it's an insignificant footnote, something not worth being discussed, even though that was the context in which Severus called her "Mudblood." But I guess that if she brought it up, she would be forced to confront her own disgraceful behavior.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

To me, this scenario sounds more like a case of Lily's "normal" friends not liking Snape because he's weird and he's in Slytherin.

And really, how is what her Gryffindor friends are saying when they're 15 any different than what her own sister Petunia said when they were nine and eleven?

Lily didn't care about Tuney's opinion back then, why care now?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yes. If she had mentioned the bullying she would have been forced to face - at least in her own mind - the fact that she didn't even bother to cast Finite. And the "my friends" comment really puts a negative light on the scene in particular, I think. She doesn't even say "my OTHER friends." She says "my friends" - showing that there is already a very clear, very firm line in her mind between "Severus" and "friends" - when one would expect that an emotionally distraught person who had genuinely cared about the person who made them upset until now would be more likely to be a bit *confused* over whether or not that person still belonged in the *emotional* category of "friend," and so more likely to use the "other friends" wording.

I have no problem with Lily being hurt, angry, upset. She has a perfect right to feel that way. I wouldn't even condemn her for deciding that she can't be friends with Severus any more if this is how it seems to her that he really is, if - IF - it had been made at all clear to me that Lily did in fact think of him as a real friend before, if she had given him the space to face up to the issue and he had *actually failed* to grasp what was bothering her or to show that he did in fact care. But Lily behaves badly to him even before the comment (in multiple scenes), shows little concern for him after hearing he was almost killed, holds him guilty by association, and repeatedly refuses to let him speak or to try and meet him halfway in the hopes of *getting through* to him. All of which tells me she wasn't really invested in the relationship at that point and felt the peer pressure of the other Gryffs (including the Marauders, whose version of the werewolf incident she believes over Severus' own). She also, if we are to believe her own words, has permitted him to say the Unforgivable Word about others without making her disapproval clear, only to turn on him when it's directed against her - that's a confusing message to send.

I find Lily a disappointingly shallow character in the end. It's fairly realistic of her to behave as she does, but that doesn't justify it and it certainly doesn't add up with the Sainted Lily picture we had been fed. I didn't necessarily need that picture either - an ordinary girl with some real bravery would have been fine by me, if 1) we hadn't been told she was, in fact, Pure and Perfect still and 2) the double standard hadn't been applied. Both Severus and Lily were wrong, and both were wronged, and both played a part in the breakdown of the friendship. But instead we are supposed to see Severus as selfish, stalkerish, and inclined to evil, while Lily is not to be criticized in the least, it's All Severus' Fault. That attitude leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Hell, I was impressed that a teenage boy with the temper and grudge-holding ability we had seen in Severus actually bothered to apologize, without the least attempt to turn it into a "but you did this!" match. He had the right fundamental attitude there, which was "I've hurt her, I've done wrong, I must make it up to her and apologize." Imagine if he had actually been supported and encouraged in this sort of behavior. A point which seems to escape many people.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

it's funny how nobody keeps in mind that it was really Barty Crouch Jr. who was doing this. None of the students, Harry included, ever reflect on the fact that it was a Death Eater who was teaching the class they loved so much, who turned Draco into a ferret.

I don't think he'd have a problem with it. I mean, in DH, he's the one chillingly saying how 'Bellatrix was right, you have to really mean it'. Seems like Snape is the only DE he never was willing to take instructions from- even though he was the only one who wanted to protect him. *eyeroll*

And SWM...I am just so over it. The way people crucify Snape here, it just...argh!

Yes, Snape was not justified in using a racial slur against her.

Lily was within her rights to get angry about it.
I'd wish she was a bit more sensitive to the fact that he was humiliated, emasculated, that he's the school joke and she was a convenient target (I've had people lash out at me before since I'm the 'safe target', which is sucky, but I get that they don't mean it and it's because our relationship's strong enough to weather the small hits), but I get her being angry and not wanting to be a doormat.

But to say that ended their friendship and it was all his fault, well, no. (I find the fact that he camped out on her doorstep in hostile territory where kids hated him and would hex him, and to the disapproval of his own house pretty remarkabe. Enough of a grand gesture already!)

She clearly didn't have much affection for him ('I find nitpicking arguments like this a bit silly, honestly. It's like people who get mad at Lily for not making sure that Snape's airways were right and dandy after soap came out of his mouth. It's like...seriously?'- yes, seriously, because if you cared about someone, you would be upset and concerned for them) and couldn't care less about his wellbeing while James was tormenting him.

Fickle and shallow, I definitely agree. The way she taunts him about how her other friends look down on him, that's just catty. Their relationship is kind of emotionally abusive, really, she needs him to be her pet and as long as he's her tame Slytherin, it's all good, but one foot out of line, and she's an avenging harpy and he's not fit to lick her boots. I don't see any caring or affection in this friendship, tbh. Yes, I liked her on the train, when she dismissed James and Sirius, and was firmly on Snape's side, but that was about it.

And she wants to cast judgment on his friends but happily go on being friends with people who tell her she should cut him out of her life? Double-standard, much?

Lily never addresses the bullying. She *saw* what James was doing with her own eyes, and yet she never brings it up in her argument with Snape. She's ready to rail at him for calling her "Mudblood" and goes on about how he's really a bigot at heart, but she never addresses James' bullying behavior

YES. She can be annoyed with his friends or what he finds funny (from the girl who laughed at him choking and exposed before the school, yeah, people in glass houses, Lil), but she'll throw it in his face how James saved his life- from what, exactly? She doesn't buy the werewolf story, but she will accept that there was a monster and James was such a ~hero~ and Snape ought to be grateful...! After all those years of bullying? REALLY? And the bullying still continues after that and she's later willing to go out with James anyway? I can't even. *shakes head* So he bullies someone she's been friends with for years, and that's totally cool, but one ill-judged comment and she'll cut Snape out of her life. Right on.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really don't understand at all what Lily saw in *James* to make him seem datable. Sure, he hid the fact he was tormenting Severus still, but Severus was not his only target ever, and Lily had seen enough of his behavior over the previous years to know what sort of thing amused him. The only partial explanation I come up with (that's not a truly cynical and non-generous reading of Lily RE social status and wealth) is that she was absolutely hooked on the idea that she 'made someone change,' she 'reformed' the bad boy popular jock. Which sort of makes me wonder why that didn't apparently hold any appeal for her when it was Severus she supposedly would have been reforming.

On the train she was better, yes, but she was still willing to blame Petunia's being upset with her entirely on Severus, even though it was *her* sister's room and so she must have been equally involved herself in order for them to get hold of the letter. It has to be only one party being responsible for negative consequences, not her admitting that they *both* played a role. Unfortunately her son took after her in this, and Gryffindor House culture reinforced it.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/She doesn't buy the werewolf story, but she will accept that there was a monster and James was such a ~hero~ and Snape ought to be grateful...! After all those years of bullying? REALLY?/

Again, that's why I don't buy that they were best friends, just because Lily is so *clueless.* How could she not know that the Marauders have been constantly bullying Snape? How could she not be the slightest suspicious about what happened the night of the Prank and how could she just accept everything that James told her without any questions whatsoever? She accuses Snape of choosing his friends over her, yet during the entire course of their argument, she's taking the Marauders' side over his!

None of your friends understand why you still talk to him, Lily? From everything you've said, it sounds like you *don't* talk to him, or, at the very least, you don't let him talk to you. Because I don't understand how you can be so oblivious about Snape's situation otherwise.

Snape ought to be *grateful?* Yeah, like Harry should have been grateful to Draco for stomping on his nose in HBP. I didn't realize that saving someone's life entitled you to be a complete and utter jerk to them.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Really, I don't know what Snape saw in her.

Someone who was (for a while) willing to listen to him, and the first person to do so. He was more or less imprinted on her.

SWM does make me question why James was made Head Boy, though. Even if he improved himself during his sixth year, there must surely have been other people who'd been model students from their first year -- why not choose one of them?

Because a rich pureblood who supports Dumbles' politics was supposed to show something to the ones who were considering the DEs?

And because Dumbles, after not investigating the werewolf affair was so impressed with James'bravery.

And was grateful to James for enabling Dumbly's illegal and unsafe harboring of a werewolf at school remain secret.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Someone who was (for a while) willing to listen to him, and the first person to do so. He was more or less imprinted on her.


JKR uses the description of greedy, that he watched Lily greedily. I do wonder what she was trying to imply with that, it sounds like he was lonely and Lily had sparked his interest. I mean really, he was 9-10 years old but some fans are saying he was a 'stalker'. To me it looks like he thought he'd found a magical child who he could be friends with who lived near him. Who wouldn't be hungry for the friendship and affection if they'd never had it before?


Because a rich pureblood who supports Dumbles' politics was supposed to show something to the ones who were considering the DEs?

And because Dumbles, after not investigating the werewolf affair was so impressed with James'bravery.

And was grateful to James for enabling Dumbly's illegal and unsafe harboring of a werewolf at school remain secret.

Ouuuuuu! Excellent point/idea/theory! I never looked at it that way but yea, it does make a lot of sense to the why Dumbledore would make him a headboy when he was abusing and harrassing other students for a majority of his school life.

I would have thought that past behavior would be brought into why someone was or wasn't made a head boy/girl.

The apparent 'change' in James happened in 7th year I think it was said. There was 6 other years that the school staff should have used as a reference on him.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that the same word "hungrily" was used to describe Harry looking at his family for the first time in the Mirror of Erised and the apparition of Lily looking at Harry in DH. I don't think that we were meant to view them as stalkers. I think that JKR did add that description of greedy so that we'd get a more negative impression of Severus, but why? He was a little boy with a miserable home life, just like Harry. I didn't get a stalker vibe from him; even though "greed" sent a negative connotation, I thought that it was out of place because Severus just seemed to be a little boy looking for a friend.

/I never looked at it that way but yea, it does make a lot of sense to the why Dumbledore would make him a headboy when he was abusing and harrassing other students for a majority of his school life./

Not when you consider that Tom Riddle was made Head Boy during Dumbledore's years at Hogwarts. I don't think that Dumbledore was Headmaster then, so it wasn't his decision to make, but still, wouldn't he have learned something from seeing a dangerous, troublemaking student appointed as Head Boy? One whom he suspected of harboring a dangerous magical creature in the school? Or was James a different case because he was in Gryffindor?

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

grateful to James for enabling Dumbly's illegal and unsafe harboring of a werewolf at school remain secret

I am cynical enough to believe him being Head Boy was reward for keeping his dirty little secret. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

I hate Dumbledore. Which is why it makes me sad that Evanna Lynch calls herself a 'Dumbledorist' and that her bedroom walls are covered with quotes of his, and possibly pictures, like a little shrine. >_< Just...I love her, but no.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Or maybe, Dumbledore really wanted Lily as Head Girl, and of all the boys available James was the only one who could possibly work with her without being crushed by her 'feistiness'.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore was a *huge* disappointment to me, and not because of the Grindelwald thing (had he actually learned his lesson that would have been perfect). The "sort too soon" comment and a few other things made me a little way of him, but I hadn't really caught all his little manipulations of Harry and Severus in my first reading of the first five books, so I was still hoping to see that he really had been some sort of mentor or friend to Severus, who clearly respected him. But unfortunately DH did a number on him, and - rarely for DH - it actually added up with previous portrayals of him once considered carefully. It was such a huge letdown to have the supposed voice of wisdom and love in the series prove to be such an empathy-deprived, manipulative b*stard. I will tolerate a lot of relative OOCness and canon-twisting in fic (I adore Voldemort-loyalist Snape fics, after all), but kindly-mentor Dumbles will make me hit the back button *every* time. I just can't buy it anymore at all. He treated Severus, Harry, and many others just abominably. Yes, he truly thought it was for the greater good (I believe that), but his arrogance and lack of real remorse during his so-called apologies just...no.

And JKR calls him 'Machiavellian' and then goes on to proclaim he is the epitome of goodness! Do I want to know what her take on morality really is?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the line of discussion you raised with your point about Severus not revealing Lupin's secret before PoA keeps nagging at me. It made me realize that there is a bigger gap here than the one that I got into below that tells us Severus never told about Lupin even as a DE. So I wrote/ranted a little about it here (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/snapedom/275246.html).

Upon examining canon - I am working up a list of why - I think it fairly reasonable to suppose that the DEs/Voldemort must not have known about Remus' condition before PoA, nor therefore about Dumbles' dangerous little charity project and its narrowly-averted consequences.

But this makes no sense.

Why doesn't anyone on Voldemort's side apparently (before PoA) have any idea about Lupin's lycanthropy or the fact that Dumbles had him secretly at Hogwarts as a student? Beyond the fact that Severus never told, I mean. Because there are at least two other sources for this information: Peter, and the Werewolf Registry. Peter's not telling could perhaps be explained by some supposition that he disliked/blamed Remus least out of the other three Marauders (going with the resentful!Peter theory) or actively cared about him (going more with cowardly!Peter) enough not to tell about this right away if he could help it, but Voldie's ignorance of the Registry's contents? Not so easy to explain away.

Please help, someone!

I concentrate in my little ramble linked to mostly on the time up to the end of PoA and Severus' blowing the whistle. It is also strange that after PoA they never tried to do anything with it either...the only explanation I can come up with there is JKR's lack of thought, but it's fun to theorize about the earlier time period.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I replied on your essay.

In short, I doubt Rowling even remembers what she wrote in the charity books. In-story, maybe there is something wrong with the Register.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

I have two theories:
1. the information is protected by Fidelius.
or
2. If you are a werewolf, you don´t turn yourself to the authorities (the register). Somebody has to find out you are one. So Remus would have difficulties not with getting a job, but with maintaining it; it would be suspicious that he is regularly ill during the full moons.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting. :)

RE 1) If it were Fidelius bound, though, Severus ought not to have been *able* to tell, ever. Only the Secret Keeper can tell - and Severus surely was not the Keeper! (And what about *after* he told?)

RE 2) So you theorize Remus' parents never sought medical treatment for their son, though he had a large nasty bite? He was a child when bitten, so it was not in his own hands. And if he had such consistent trouble keeping a job because of the full moons, why didn't any of his employers go in with the suspicion/almost proof that he was a werewolf? (I say almost proof because what other explanation is there for someone who is always sick/unavailable on the full moon, and can't/won't give a straight solid reason why?)...Also, this strikes me now (thanks for provoking more thoughts :) ), why didn't any of the DEs ever hear of the *suspicions*? It's a very small, closed society....

Severus, the most honest and loyal of them all.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Why doesn't anyone on Voldemort's side apparently (before PoA) have any idea about Lupin's lycanthropy or the fact that Dumbles had him secretly at Hogwarts as a student?

If you want some more evidence that Severus never told anyone, how about Lucius.

Would Lucius have allowed Dumbledore to get away with having a Werewolf DADA teacher while Draco was there?

If Severus had of told Voldie and the DE about Lupin, Lucius would have already known during Harry's first year, second year, third year, etc. etc. that Remus Lupin was a werewolf.

Lucius Malfoy was a Governor of Hogwarts and I'm fairly sure they have to know who Dumbledore is hiring. Even if it is Dumbledore's privilage to hire professors I think at least the Governors would be notified who was going to teach.

And reguardless if Severus told Voldie back in the day, then Lucius seemingly would have known. But reguardless of that, Even if by the end of Harry's second year Dumbledore said, I'm going to hire Lupin, We know that Severus did not go running to Lucius and complain that a werewolf was getting hired for DADA.

This would have been a clear example of a place Lucius could have pushed for Dumbledore's removal as a Headmaster if he had already known about Lupin

So it's pretty clear to me Severus never told anyone, even Voldie and DE. Lucius clearly didn't know or I'm pretty sure he would have fought Remus coming to teach at Hogwarts.

Re: Severus, the most honest and loyal of them all.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Good point about Lucius. Given both his prejudices and his concern for his son he would have had a fit if he had heard even a whisper that DD would be hiring a werewolf. (I think it pretty clear that he didn't know beforehand the exact nature of what he was unleashing with the Diary.) And he and Severus are supposed to be friends, so if Severus was going to bitch to anyone, it likely would be Lucius.

So Severus - spiteful, grudge-holding, petty, immature Severus, we are told - kept mum about Remus for 18 years, despite it being of probable benefit to him to have told at times, and with no known external or magical compulsion to silence him, and only spilled the beans after a year in which their only known interactions (other than mutual insults/shows of disrespect) included 1) Remus refusing to assure Severus that he is *drinking* the potion Severus has brewed (chapter 8), 2) Severus making the students research how to identify and defend themselves from werewolves earlier than it was listed in the textbook (chapter 9) without saying anything beyond that, and 3) Remus leaving his potion until the last minute/too late with no known explanation for why, leading him to transform in the midst of a tense situation, endangering three students (at least) including Harry Potter and allowing Peter Pettigrew to escape to go find Voldemort.

I probably would have told someone in that situation too. It's clear that Remus can't be trusted to take responsibility for managing himself (or for saying no to old friends) even when children's lives are at stake, and it's equally clear that Dumbledore is continuing his pattern of dismissing Severus' concerns and covering up for the murderously irresponsible Marauders. It's not nice, Remus certainly was negatively affected, but the man proved he can't be trusted to act like an adult when entrusted with children's *lives.* Should Severus have kept silent - risking anyone who trusts Lupin similarly in the future, plus his own life and crucial mission once Voldie hears of the incident from Peter?

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

I could probably fanwank this to death. I'm not looking at the books, which I buried somewhere, so I probably have some things wrong.

Remus is a werewolf.

1. Dumbledore and at least Pomfrey know it, but they are not telling anyone.
2a. School day Marauders know it, but they aren't telling, especially Peter whose friends would kill him if he told.
2b. Death Eater spy Peter knows it, but nobody cares, as Voldemort is close to taking over the Wizarding World regardless of Dumbledore's standing in it, and Hogwarts is so last year... and, can they even prove Remus was a werewolf while in school without outing Peter?
3a. Severus knows it, but he's just such a man of honor he won't tell once he's given his word, for whatever reason, even as a young Death Eater, until others, and especially the boy he's sworn to guard, are threatened by Remus.
3b. Severus knows it, but he's been be-spelled, maybe because of the "life debt," to be unable to speak of it directly until Remus again proves beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a menace to others.
3c. Severus knows it... or does he? He only has a theory, after all. He may have been Marietta-ized in Dumbledore's office. He knows something bad happened to him, but he's not quite sure what it was or if what he was told was what really happened, or why James would be a hero out of it. He can't really speak coherently to Lily about it. He only realizes what happened when he is asked to prepare Wolfsbane potion each month for the new DADA teacher who he previously knew as Sirius Black's friend. Soon enough, with his old suspicions and rusty memories, he puts two and two together, supplying the motive for James' supposed saving of him, and attempting to circumvent Dumbledore's orders in order to alert others to Remus' condition.
4. Fenrir knows it, but see 2b above. Did Fenrir align himself with the Death Eaters in the 1970s? If he joined just before the Potters' deaths, then it's likely nobody cares about Dumbledore's pet project with the world on the brink, supposedly. Or maybe Fenrir likes to protect fellow werewolves from wizard interference, or just wants to be the only werewolf Voldemort deals with. Closer to the end of POA, Voldemort has other things on his mind, like reconstituting his body, so there's no point in telling him about Remus.
5. Remus knows it, but for some reason, he forgets his extremely dangerous and painful condition whenever it is convenient for the plot. Then, when Voldemort knows about his condition for sure and after the furor about Dumbledore hiring a werewolf blows over (although I don't remember much furor), Remus becomes an ineffective spy and an ineffective love interest for Tonks.
6. Voldemort knows it, but 2b and 4, and not only does Voldemort have little liking or use for werewolves, especially conflicted ones like Remus, Voldemort has a short attention span. He could trot out the werewolf story for Show and Tell to the whole Wizarding World to discredit Dumbledore, but does he? No, he's on to some other obsessive goal. Stupid. Not only that, Dumbledore has done a million bone-headed things in his tenure at Hogwarts and only bad characters get bent out of shape about it. Short attention spans and stupidity all around.
7. Everyone at Hogwarts knows it, but wizards being terminally stupid and irresponsible, doomed to relearn previous lessons each year, the story never went very far.
8. The werewolf registry was made up to make Umbridge look especially bad. It didn't exist as a concept before OOTP, either in the Wizarding World, or in JKR's mind. It was a paper tiger pasted onto the story. If it existed before the end of OOTP, only cranks like Umbridge, who still wants to discredit Dumbledore, care about it.
9. JKR knows it, but for her, Remus is a wishy-washy stand-in for an ambiguous message in an inconsistent story.

I doubt we will ever get satisfactory answers on inconsequential things like werewolf status and house-elf powers and Dark Magic and wand allegiance and life debts and... ad nauseum.