COS Chapter Eight: "The Deathday Party"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* Everyone’s got such a hate-on for Percy that he’s described using negative imagery even when he’s doing something nice. Here he’s “bullying” Ginny into taking some potion for her cold.

* Knowing what will happen in GOF, everybody’s probably going to blame him for thinking that Ginny’s a little bit ill, rather than realising that she was just being possessed by a Horcrux-ified diary which once belonged to a dark wizard who’s been dead for eleven years. Christ, Percy, are you blind or something?

* Although in retrospect it’s obvious that Ginny’s just too awesome to suffer from such petty ailments as the common cold, so maybe he should have noticed.

* Oh no wait, she hasn’t yet become MarySue!Ginny, so she might still suffer illness like the rest of us mere mortals.

* Obviously Harry’s going to be drenched to the skin, but why’s he splattered with mud? The whole point of Quidditch is that they players fly a long way above the ground, so they wouldn’t have much opportunity to get muddy. Unless Harry fell off a lot… Wait, did I just implicitly diss Harry’s SuperQuidditch!Skillz? Ignore that.

* In the last chapter, everybody acted as if Slytherin spying on Gryffindor’s try-outs was a dirty, underhanded thing to do. Fred and George have been spying on Slytherin. Slytherin, as far as we know, never actually spied on Gryffindor (or, indeed, anyone). IOIAGDI, obviously.

* I highly doubt that the Nimbus 2001 is so good as to make all other brooms obsolete.

* Nearly-headless Nick died in 1492, but the clothes he’s wearing seem more Elizabethan in style, i.e., about a century later. Perhaps there’s a ghost clothes shop where spirits can keep up-to-date with the latest fashions, but NHN just likes Elizabethan fashions so much that he stopped going after around 1600.

* Of course, this sort of fanwank wouldn’t be necessary if JKR had actually bothered to think about her setting, and either gave Nick more period-appropriate clothing or made this his four hundredth deathday instead.

* If the purpose of the Headless Hunt is to play ball games with members’ own heads, excluding members who aren’t fully decapitated seems quite reasonable to me.

* Once again, JKR, trying to enforce rules ≠ “endless battle against students”.

* Filch has been cleaning all morning when any of the teachers (and probably quite a few of the pupils) could have done it in an instant with a quick “Scourgify!” No wonder he’s in a bad mood, really.

* Although I do wonder why Dumbledore hired him as caretaker. Perhaps he just enjoys watching him being humiliated.

* So what is this mysterious power that connects Filch and Mrs. Norris? Does the fact that Filch is a Squib rule out magic, or does being a Squib just mean that he can’t do wand magic, but can still be magically connected to his pets?

* Is it wrong that I’ve always totally rooted for Filch against Fred and George?

* By making Filch’s eagerness to hang pupils by their ankles “common knowledge”, i.e., unsubstantiated rumour, Rowling handily manages to turn us against him whilst avoiding having to provide any evidence to back this up.

* I can’t help but wonder why Dumbles keeps Peeves around. Possibly it’s so that he can handily distract Filch when Our Hero is in trouble. Or maybe blackmail’s involved. “Don’t forget, Twinkles, I’ve got your old love-letters from Gellert Grindlewald. So if you even think about getting rid of me…”

* Harry apparently has no qualms about looking through other people’s correspondence. Our hero, ladies and gentlemen!

* One of these days I’m going to write a fic where Harry suffers karmic revenge for being such a jerk. So his schooldays will be made a misery by people reading his private letters, hexing rude words across his face, beating him at Quidditch by buying superior brooms which make every match a foregone conclusion…

* Nice to see that wizards have picked up on the irritating Muggle habit of deliberately misspelling words in their brand names.

* Any guesses on how exactly a warlock differs from a regular wizard?

* Harry put the envelope down two feet away from where it was. D’oh!

* Filch is obviously ashamed of being a Squib, suggesting that they suffer from prejudice from fellow wizards, unlike Muggleborns. “Mudblood” is still a worse insult than “Sneakin’ Squib,” though.

* NHN is prepared to destroy a priceless antique in order to get Harry out of detention. Good to see he’s got his priorities straight.

* NHN seems like a bit of a joke, to be honest. About the only time we see him interacting with Gryffindor students is when they needle him at the feast; the rest of the time, they just seem to ignore him.

* I bet the Slytherins treat their ghost better. They probably hold a big party in their common room every time it’s the Bloody Baron’s deathday, with music, dancing, and various wizarding party games. The highlight of the night is a play (written by and starring Draco Malfoy, of course) about the Baron’s death. It’s absolutely excellent. :)

* Off on a bit of a tangent here, but isn’t the Baron supposed to have been contemporaneous with the Hogwarts Founders? Which would mean that he lived sometime during the Anglo-Saxon period, which would mean that he couldn’t be a baron, as the rank was introduced by the Normans, who didn’t control England until 1066…

* F&G are feeding a firework to a salamander, continuing the long tradition of cruelty to animals in the series.

* “‘A promise is a promise,’ Hermione reminded Harry bossily.” Because only bossy kill-joys care about such things as keeping your promises. Most normal people are fine with the idea of just breaking them whenever you feel like it.

* Apparently when their bodies died, the ghosts’ musical taste died too.

* Rather careless (some might say rude) of Nick to invite three living people along and then not bother to provide them with any food.

* Rotting food might have a stronger flavour than normal food. Unfortunately, it’s also a not very nice flavour.

* So, the good guys can’t stand Myrtle and make fun of her behind her back; the evil Slytherin Draco Malfoy, OTOH, is able to get past her unpleasant exterior and make friends with her. I’ll just chalk that up as #147 on the “Instances when the bad guys actually seem better than the good guys” board.

* Rather rude of Sir Patrick to interrupt Nick’s speech like that. Makes you wonder why exactly Nick invited him.

* Or why he’s so keen to join the Hunt, for that matter.

* “Time to kill… I smell blood… I SMELL BLOOD”? Do basilisks always speak in such a melodramatic way, or is it just putting it on to amuse Harry? Or did it just pick up the Slytherin theatrical habit from Salazar or Tom?

* Given that all the students are coming up from the same place, why exactly are they coming in from different ends of the corridor?

* I know that people often think of Draco as a bit of a drama queen, but pushing to the front of the crowds and shouting “You’ll be next, Mudbloods!” seems ridiculously over-the-top (not to mention rather stupid), even for him. I literally cannot imagine what his motivation for doing this is meant to be.

* Actually, I think Olivander shows us a spell in GOF to make wine fly out of their wands. Maybe Draco’s just discovered this, and currently drunk off his arse.

* Or maybe Rowling just hooked his testicles up to car batteries and turned up the voltage until he agreed to be one of the book’s red herrings.

* Come to think of it, a lot of the plot/characterisation in the series would make a good deal more sense if we assume that that’s what happened. “Look, Sirius, I don’t care if you’re smart enough to figure a way of staying sane despite being surrounded for twelve years by an army of depression-inducing monsters, before masterminding an escape from an impregnable island fortress and evading the biggest man-hunt in recent wizarding history for almost a year, I need you to be really reckless and immature in this book so that you can get killed at the end and make Harry feel miserable. Quick, Dobby, get the car batteries!”

* Hey, maybe that could be a new acronym, for any time when someone does something inexplicable or otherwise out of character: QGCB (for “Quick, get the car batteries!”).

 

Comments

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/I mean, jeez, when is a guy ever described as bossy? Never! He's strong and confident and a million other positive adjectives, not bossy!/

I think that Percy is often described as being bossy. If not in the books, then by the fandom.

/I rather hate the way Harry coldly uses Myrtle- yes, she's annoying, but she's sad and lonely, and she basically helps save his life by giving him info in GoF, but he just crosses his fingers when he promises to visit her. Some gratitude./

Well, in Harry's defense, Myrtle *is* a little creepy in GoF when she makes remarks about seeing him in the bath, as well as Cedric. But it is interesting how differently Draco and Harry treat her.

/Another thing that aggravates me about JKR. She can't make a character realistically racist, she has to force him to act erratically and dumb him down to pull it off. *eyeroll*/

Like when Draco makes a stupid remark about touching Hermione's hands in GoF, makes some feeble taunt about Harry's Muggle-born mother in OotP, and when he makes the even more immature remark about Hermione's "smell" in HBP. If Draco has to be racist, could he at least be more subtle about it, indicating some degree of cunning and intelligence on his part? I'd think that it would hurt Hermione more if he used that approach, because then he wouldn't sound like a racist parrot who was just repeating the same insult over and over again. Unless he realizes that Hermione doesn't care and he's just spouting off like that to annoy Harry and Ron.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Well, in Harry's defense, Myrtle *is* a little creepy in GoF when she makes remarks about seeing him in the bath, as well as Cedric. But it is interesting how differently Draco and Harry treat her.

A little creepy, but not very. I mean, she's stuck for eternity as an insecure 13-year-old, I think that The Living Embodiment of Love, Truth, and Mercy should be able to feel some compassion.

If Draco has to be racist, could he at least be more subtle about it, indicating some degree of cunning and intelligence on his part?

Mostly because he's acting as designated villian. Cf. Snape - he's intelligent outside of class, but in class he's Da Meen Teecher, who displays blatant bias, insults his pupils and really performs quite poorly.

[oryx_leucoryx]

but in class he's Da Meen Teecher, who displays blatant bias, insults his pupils and really performs quite poorly.

Well, I don't think his behavior is biased. I think Harry and his friends behave worse and perform worse than Slytherins in Severus' class. Also, other teachers insult students too, he isn't unique in that. There are only few (2?) incidents I think he crosses the line in his classroom behavior, and he is a teacher we see in class more than most.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

but in class he's Da Meen Teecher, who displays blatant bias, insults his pupils and really performs quite poorly.

Are we talking about Snape's classroom here? As I remember it Umbridge called his class advanced.

And I don't know was it ever shown that all his pupils were preforming badly? I don't know if there is any evidence that Snape was making sure all the students he didn't like did poorly in his class. I don't think he was purposefully failing everyone except for Slytherins was he?

But weren't there a few instances where he repremanded the whole class for turning in bad essays and grades.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

We know that the Ministry (according to Umbridge at least) thinks his classes are advanced, and we also know that he has a high pass rate for the OWLs. TSo we know he is a good enough teacher to successfully teach enough of his students the material that most of them pass their OWLs, and since he isn't getting that pass rate by dumbing down the material, it must be a result of his teaching, the other variable in the situation. Ergo Severus is in fact an effective teacher, insults notwithstanding.

I think we just get a one-sided picture because of a few things:

- we never get to see his classes from the POV of someone other that Harry, who is neither intellectually inclined, nor the sort who often pushes himself to do well at things that don't interest him - and Potions definitely does not interest him.

- Harry also has a very personal bias against Severus stemming at least in part from a pre-classroom experience (the scar hurting at the welcoming feast) and which colors his interpretation of Severus' actions thereafter. (This is not saying it's just all in Harry's head, but he always chooses the worst possible interpretation of an incident and never acknowledges that he also plays a role in each incident). Severus likewise has very personal issues with Harry specifically, so their interactions there are *not* necessarily representative of his normal interactions with students. Neville too seems to be a special case; compare Severus' interactions with other students in DADA sixth year.

- Harry's Potions classes, when shared with other Houses (and IIRC the majority of the lessons we actually see are shared, aren't they?), are always with Slytherin - the House Severus most has to put on his unrepentant-DE act on for. Severus also simply doesn't have a temperament that deals well with Gryffindor characteristics in others, particularly students. So he is never going to be at his best with the Gryffs, and it's going to be even worse with the Gryff/Slyth classes. I bet the Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff classes are relatively calmer: Ravenclaws value learning, Hufflepuffs value hard work, and while the two might not get along I doubt that their in-class behavior is as volatile as the Gryff/Slyth combination.

I could go on an on, but basically I think it's that we see Severus under the worst conditions, through the eyes of someone inclined to interpret things the worst way possible.

As to evidence that he makes sure students he doesn't like do badly: we never see such a thing. We see a very bad vicious circle with Neville, but I think it's clear that Severus' frustration there comes from precisely the fact that *no matter what he does* Neville never seems to make any *progress.* He complains vocally about this fact: "What does it take to get through to you, Longbottom?" Severus doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on alternate *methods* of teaching but he's isn't out to make Neville (or Harry) fail. Nor does he grade biasedly from what we can tell: if Hermione - a Muggleborn Gryffindor he definitely does not like - did indeed get the top mark in the class, then neither House considerations, nor blood status, nor personal affection influences his grading, since the evidence points to *Draco* being her only real competition for the spot.

And yes, he does make it very clear to the class that he expects them to pass their OWLs and do good work generally.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

- we never get to see his classes from the POV of someone other that Harry,

Not officially, but one can infer something from Luna Lovegood's relationship with Snape.

Luna seems to respect Snape, and for all her oddness and outrageous comments/statements, not once does Snape insult her nor make snarky comments regarding her or her viewpoints.

Luna is a Ravenclaw, which implies that she is intelligent, and she seems to have been a student who was, well, studious, and who presumably did well in classes and completed assignments on time.

She is respectful to the Hogwarts professors, and that is definitely something that Snape considers essential in a student.

So Luna basically met all of Snape's standards, she respected him, and Snape seems to have returned that respect, in as much that he did not insult her like he did Hermione.

My guess is that Luna's relationship with Snape was probably more the norm for the majority of the student body; it is just that Rowling writes from the POV of a character who gets on the wrong side of Snape, and that therefore colors the reader's viewpoint.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you for pointing out Luna. You'd think she'd be an easy target for Severus if he's truly inclined to belittle all non-Slytherin students or who simply doesn't give a damn at all for their feelings and is a malicious bastard all the time. Yet never do we have any conflict between them, and when you analyze the situation it *actually makes sense* in terms of coherent characterization, assuming one is able and willing to look beyond the Harry filter.

And yes, Severus is all about the respect issue. IMHO this is one of the biggest factors in his conflict with Harry: he doesn't feel that Harry respects him in the least, and in fact Harry repeatedly behaves in a disrespectful manner towards him. But Harry places 100% of the blame for their conflict upon Severus as simply founded upon hatred and the James issue, and never asks himself if he does anything to exacerbate the situation or if he has any duty to behave respectfully towards teachers regardless of personal feeling. I'm not saying Harry alone is responsible for everything, of course, but as they say it takes two to tango.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Sorry to keep asking this question, but when do we see Luna and Snape's interaction? Is that in HBP?

And yeah, I read fics in which he's perfectly foul to everyone across the board, but I really think that's due to the Harry!filter- he and Snape have the most antagonistic relationship, but there's history there, so it's understandable, whereas I don't see Snape being as provocative (not in the good way, lol) and taunting random kids in other classes the way he does Harry. If he did, I can't imagine why anyone would want to do Potions when it becomes elective- they'd be all too happy to ditch the class as soon as they're allowed to.

Harry places 100% of the blame for their conflict upon Severus as simply founded upon hatred and the James issue, and never asks himself if he does anything to exacerbate the situation or if he has any duty to behave respectfully towards teachers regardless of personal feeling

I really love you for saying this. Part of the conflict I faced on the other comm was due to me saying Harry contributed to the bad blood between them, that he never made any effort to see beyond the first impression he made, even after he finds out Snape's not the villain he thought and that he was trying to save his life! It's why I've never been able to judge Snape's behavior- yes, it's not professional, but I have a hard time telling myself I should be appalled by it when Harry's the biggest brat.

Funny how in DH, he all-of-a-sudden forgives Snape for everything, and ends up naming his son after him. From the Harry we've seen from books one to six, he's never had a single positive thought about the guy, no matter how many times it turned out his suspicions were wrong and he was always trying to ensure Harry's safety. Yet all of a sudden, we're supposed to buy that Harry went over to the man he thought murdered Dumbledore, took his memories and actually paid any attention to them? In the middle of a battle, when he had an hour's reprieve, seeing Snape's last thoughts was what mattered to him? Totally not believable- and I laugh at the suggestion someone made that Snape might've given him the most negative and hurtful memories just to be a jerk and make him feel like crap, like, just all the times he sneered at Harry, lol!

If there's been an inkling in the earlier books, Harry acknowledging he's not so bad, trying to see it from his pov, okay, but to go from blindly hating him, even after he's proven himself, not showing any understanding at all...no.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Funny how in DH, he all-of-a-sudden forgives Snape for everything, and ends up naming his son after him. From the Harry we've seen from books one to six, he's never had a single positive thought about the guy, no matter how many times it turned out his suspicions were wrong and he was always trying to ensure Harry's safety. Yet all of a sudden, we're supposed to buy that Harry went over to the man he thought murdered Dumbledore, took his memories and actually paid any attention to them?/

I just couldn't believe Harry's utter lack of reaction after seeing the Pensieve in DH. He and Snape have hated each other for seven years, but now that Harry's found out that Snape was in love with his mother, their enmity doesn't matter anymore? If that were me, I would have *freaked out.* I still don't understand why Harry didn't. It's one thing to learn that your teacher was in love with one of your parents, but a teacher that you've *hated?* How could Harry not react to that discovery? How could he just brush that aside in favor of focusing on Dumbledore's master plan?

I know that there was a war going on, but Harry couldn't spare one second to feel horrified, shocked, disgusted, overwhelmed, or any other emotions that would have been normal to feel at that moment? And then he later names one of his *sons* after him? "Yeah, Albus Severus, I used to really hate your namesake, but then I found out that he was in love with your grandmother, and that made everything okay!"

That was one of the most unrealistic moments ever in DH, and that's saying something.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I think people misjudge his relationship with the student body, because we see it from Harry's pov, which is entirely negative- and we also see how he treats Hermione, a respectful and diligent student. I don't much like how Snape treats either kid in the first potions lesson- the only time I really don't enjoy his behavior, because Harry's an innocent lamb who hasn't done anything wrong or acting entitled to special privileges as the Chosen One- but I can certainly see why he's so frustrated with her as the series progresses, and as she has ties with Harry, he can't really treat her the same as he does other kids anyway.

(lol, we're supposed to be appalled by him calling Hermione a know-it-all, even though Ron calls her that as well?)

I don't really know what interactions with Luna you're referring to, but I do think that it makes sense they'd get on, as long as the students were respectful and not, y'know, gossiping in class or throwing ingredients at other students or frakking fireworks into cauldrons.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I don't really know what interactions with Luna you're referring to,

The only actual interaction is at Slughorn's Yule party in HBP; Luna makes her off-the-wall comment about the Rotfang Conspiracy, and Snape just stands there and doesn't say anything. If it had been Harry, Hermione, Ron, the twins, or basically any Gryffindor saying the same thing, I doubt that Snape would have let it go by without some sarcastic comment.

The rest can only be inferred; Luna never says anything bad about Snape, because she never has anything bad to say about anybody, when it comes down to it.

As I previously pointed out, she is studious, presumably completes assignments on time and gets at least adequate, if not outstanding, grades, and is respectful to her professors...

Everything that Snape would consider essential in a student.

And my guess is that the majority of the student body was the same -- they were on time for classes, they did their homework and completed assignments on time, and unless they were complete idiots in Potions, then they got along fine with Snape, and he with them.

And I would also guess that even with a student who was doing poorly in Potions, if they were respectful to Snape (a different thing than Neville's cowering terror of him), and approached Snape after class and said something along the lines of, "Please, Professor Snape, could you help me figure out what I am doing wrong? Is there anything else I can do to try to improve in Potions?", that Snape would not have been sarcastic, snarky, or insulting like he was to most Gryffindors...

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hermione is *not* a respectful student to Severus. She attempts to respond when Severus isn't asking her (1st lesson), even after he makes it clear he wants *Harry's* response (this is a difference from the movie, where he asks if *anyone* knows and then goes and ignores Hermione). In the werewolf lesson in POA she talks out of turn repeatedly and criticizes his choice of curriculum. Monopolizing the class, helping students cheat with homework (Harry and Ron) or with brewing (Neville), stealing ingredients - is not respectful student behavior. And she does not perform to his expectations in that she quotes the textbook instead of extracting meaning from the text. As another former know-it-all I recognize the temptation to raise one's hand all the time, but this isn't what teachers want. When one student (or a small number of students) answers all the time the others coast.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I don't like Snape's dealings with Neville, tbh, and I have a hard time justifying it except to say that he can't afford to coddle the boy, as he's a Gryffindor, and it's not like he's been showing much kindness in his own life, so he can't exactly help nurture the guy. (people point to the way that not!Moody soothes him with tea and his favorite book, like it's a negative reflection on Snape, but he's got a cover to maintain, wtf, he's not going to be able to play nice and coax Neville into doing better!)

Anyway, if Neville does equally badly in Transfiguration and Charms, it's obviously not the teaching- I really think he has a mental block when it comes to magic. After his childhood, where he had to deal with his relatives' disdain and outright abuse because they thought he was a Squib or put him in dangerous situations to try to force the magic into the open, it's no wonder he has a difficult time using his magic.

I think he's got low self-esteem and he doesn't believe in himself and thinks he's a failure, and it becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy, so he kind of makes himself fail. It's only when he gains confidence (which seems to be the main theme in the series- all you need is confidence!) that his performance improves.

But back to my point, this wasn't going to be something Snape could ever deal with in his class. Minerva herself isn't above making snide comments mocking his ability before the other students, either. (and I wonder, if we saw her classes more often, would we see her making more of those types of comments? And how would she deal with Slytherins, any more fairly than Snape with the Gryffs?)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Neville's problem is lack of control, not lack of magic. When he attempts to fly his broom goes off too soon and too high. When he gets the timing wrong in his brewing the cauldron melts. When Minerva mentions exams are near he makes the table-leg vanish (but later when they learn Vanishing spells he isn't any better, because he had no idea what he did the first time).

And Severus isn't generally unfair to the Gryffindors - he is sarcastic to them when they misbehave or perform poorly. We see a lesson where both Slytherins and Gryffindors are guilty of throwing things where they shouldn't - the Gryffindors cause a massive explosion - but neither get punished. We see a lesson where both a Gryffindor and a Slytherin cast spells that hit bystanders. The Slytherins join the class, the Gryffindors stand outside calling Severus names. Any wonder the Gryffindors get punished?

The fake threat to Trevor and the teeth comment to Hermione are the only places I think he crossed lines.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

CONTROL, that's what I was trying to express! I do like the way you just cut to the heart of it- that's what I was attempting to get at!

So yeah, of course he has magic, but it's super erratic, he can't keep it in check- and I still think there's a mental element to that, like, he's nervous, he can't focus properly, he screws up...and then takes that failure as a sign that he doesn't deserve to be at Hogwarts, he's no good just as his relatives always said and because he doesn't have any confidence in himself, it just gets worse and worse because he's resigned to failure.

I think Snape says in the CoS duel not to use Neville in a demonstration because he might put the other kid in hospital- so he has power, but he can't channel it properly. (if that'd been Harry who got that comment, it probably would've been seen as a compliment, lol- if Lupin told him to be careful when using magic because his opponent might get hospitalized, he'd be cheerfully thinking up ways to use it against Draco)

I really didn't see the thing with Trevor as crossing the line- the kid wants to bring his pet into a dangerous situation with delicate potions brewing, where one misstep could have catastrophic results? And this is by his third year? And we never hear about pets in any other classes, so obviously it's an unspoken rule, just common sense- I kind of think Snape was just fed up and trying to make him realize it's not playtime, he has to leave the toad safe in the dorm or something, not around bubbling cauldrons and sharp implements and ingredients that need to be handled with infinite care.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

You're right, actually, Percy is described as speaking in bossy, disapproving tones in GoF, my bad! But he's a character JKR tries to get people to hate- whereas Hermione is the golden girl, and she still gets slapped with that word which has negative connotations. So good call on Percy, but if I might clarify, I meant more like guys who we're supposed to like, the heroes.

Lol, you're right, Myrtle's totally creepy and what makes it worse is that the actress is in her 30s, at least! *shudders* But I just get mad at Harry's continuing lack of gratitude to people who help save his life. He owes her, and he doesn't lift a finger- let alone get his butt down to her toilet just ONCE- to show her he appreciates it.

I honestly think Draco's not trying to hurt Hermione by that point- he's realized there are problems with this 'purebloods rule, muggleborns drool' ideology and while he's gotten into the habit of slagging her off, he can't really put his heart into it. It's more just wanting to annoy someone he doesn't like as opposed to stomping this inferior retarded sub-human being beneath his boot, y'know?

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/But I just get mad at Harry's continuing lack of gratitude to people who help save his life. He owes her, and he doesn't lift a finger- let alone get his butt down to her toilet just ONCE- to show her he appreciates it./

I think that Harry just has a problem with gratitude towards distasteful people in general. Despite being abused by the Dursleys, he still leaps at the chance to avoid going to Ms. Figg's house, even though she's not described as doing anything worse than making him look at all of her photos of her cats. If he were truly abused and frightened of the Dursleys, I'd think that he would welcome the chance to go to her house as a better alternative. You and others have already mentioned Harry failing to (even grudgingly) thank Snape or to think slightly more favorably of him after PS/SS. There may be other cases, but I can't think of them at the moment.

I think the general message is: "Yes, they helped him, but they're still awful people, so they don't deserve Harry's open gratitude."

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

I know a lot of people slag Harry for not appreciating Ms. Figg's babysitting respites, but I'm not sure that (this specific) lack of gratitude can really be held against him. Doesn't Ms. Figg herself *apologize* to Harry in book five about how miserable she made sure he was when she was babysitting him to make sure the Dursleys would keep sending him back to her?

True, being forced to look at pictures of cats doesn't sound so terrible, but there are ways to make something even this innocuous a trial of endurance for an athletic little boy. She might not have allowed Harry to get up and do anything else *besides* look at the pictures of her cats. She might have insisted that Harry actually respond to her inane little comments of 'Oh, wasn't he precious!' thus keeping Harry from getting away even in his own head, and so on and so forth...

So no, its not terrible, but at least at the beginning of the series Harry was nice enough not to lash out at anyone he couldn't at least convince himself had attacked him first in some way. So while he felt free to fight back against the Dursleys, Ms. Figg hadn't actually done anything *wrong* so... as much as he hated his visits with her he couldn't justify doing anything worse than mentally calling her names, which isn't really the best outlet for frustration.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I'm willing to cut Harry at the the beginning of the series some slack - he is still very much a kid, and it's the opening of his story (in terms of how we read according to a genre). But the series is supposedly a bildungsroman, a story of how the protagonist grows up, and yet Harry not only does *not* get more mature and caring, he actually becomes crueler and more immature. Which just completely jars me. And what I'm willing to forgive or overlook in an 11-year-old I'm not so willing to overlook in a 16-year-old who really, really should know better.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, he is actually glad that she broke her leg which allowed him to go to the zoo. Since outings were extremely rare for him I can understand to some degree, but it is a bit of a warning sign that he is happy at another person's pain.

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

True...

I think when was I was first going through the books I read it more as

1) He's still a little kid (and a rather unreflective one at that) who

2) is more focused on *his* immediate gratification (which is normal) and

3) hadn't actually considered what breaking a leg *meant* for Ms. Figg - the actual pain, trauma, inconvenience, etc... and

4) by the time he sees her again, she seems perfectly fine except for a cast on her leg. Plus, she *doesn't* inflict her menagerie of cats on him AND she gives him cake! - both of which would distract him from the negative ramifications of her injury since she's not in any immediate pain or difficulty.

So there was no reason for Harry (unreflective as he is) to reconsider his response to that particular incident. I DID expect him to have to consider these things later. So you're right that in hindsight it's a warning sign, but coming into the series without any background on what he would become, Harry seemed like a normal, if slightly thoughtless little boy who hadn't quite grasped the fact that there are consequences to events *beyond* those that show up right in front of your nose. Which is something all little kids need to learn at some point.

*sigh* I miss having optimism about this series...

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Doesn't Ms. Figg herself *apologize* to Harry in book five about how miserable she made sure he was when she was babysitting him to make sure the Dursleys would keep sending him back to her?

Lol, that reminds me of someone who suggested that Snape should've been sent to collect Harry for Hogwarts! He and Vernon probably would've bonded over the irritating nuisance that boy is and the Dursleys would've been happy to let him take Harry, since they'd assume all the teachers would be equally strict and harsh with him!

Also...this is what makes it hard for me to buy into the 'omg, horrible abusive Dursleys!' thing. Because if a kid was being regularly beaten and starved, I don't see him wanting to be at home with those abusers, as opposed to the safety of a neighbor's house. Sure, it might be boring, but if he were really that down-trodden, wouldn't it be a relief to be somewhere he knew people weren't going to bash him?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

He also is fine with being a bit cheeky to the Dursleys and with feeling the right to get back at Dudley or struggle with him (he doesn't feel he has to passively submit). Obviously Dudley's bullying of him is not at all ok and is unpleasant for Harry, as is the neglect he's shown by Vernon and Petunia, but never does he behave in a manner that suggest he fears being beaten by them. Canon-Harry is not quite the meek little thing getting raped and chained up in a fanfic near you. Things seem rather to get worse as his years at Hogwarts continue (the bars on the window, for example). Which rather makes me suspect that a very genuine fear of magic and of wizards as wizards is part of what's going on there.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

OMG, UGH. I tried reading a few Severitus (?) fics because I loved the mentor dynamic Snape had with Harry in the awesome The Best Revenge, but none of the other fics I tried worked for me. They all involved Harry from OotP or later years at Hogwarts being beaten and horrifically abused. It was just so OOC. I had a hard time buying arrogant, confident Harry letting himself be repeatedly whipped or whatever without snapping and using his wand or a burst of wandless magic to strike back.

a very genuine fear of magic and of wizards as wizards is part of what's going on there

Considering their first encounter with a wizard ended up with Dudley having a tail and needing painful corrective surgery to get it removed? And another time their living room wall is blown up and their son nearly chokes to death on a ten-foot long tongue? Yeah, I'd say their fear is realistic.

What bugs me is how Harry goes 'Mr Weasley was so polite, even though they were cowering pathetically, he still tried to be polite and make small talk, but those ungrateful jerks were just shivering in fear and refused to be good hosts'. Ass.

I try to tell myself I should have more sympathy for him, having suffered in their house-hold, but...it just never seemed to affect him realistically, so yeah. *shrugs*

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

I think what it comes down to is that Dursleys were mildly abusive, but it was only to the point where Harry felt consistently unhappy and like an unwelcome outsider. Compared to that, Mrs. Figg's really wasn't a meaningful change in environment, so Harry didn't view it as a safe-haven, at least from the information we have.

There was an interesting thread to explore here on degrees and affects of abuse, had Rowling chosen (had the skills) to pursue it. What if Harry *did* react realistically to the level of abuse he suffered? Maybe he would have been eager to prove himself to his only living relatives, or else to the other authority figures around him, or just to find something to justify his worth to himself, rather than just sulking and snarking. And if that dynamic got worse over the years as Dursleys lashed out in their fear of magic, intensifying Harry's animosity toward them to the point that they feared him more and thus lashed out more harshly.... I think resolving that conflict would have been much more in line with the themes of love, tolerance, etc... that Rowling *claims* she was writing about.