GOF Chapter 2: The Scar

[oryx_leucoryx]

Harry wakes up with his scar hurting. We are let to understand that he experienced the events of the previous chapter as a dream. He quickly starts forgetting the details so as to keep him from noticing when relevant information pops up again. BTW from what POV did he experience the vision? Starting from the following year his visions will be from Voldemort's POV but this does not seem to be the case this instance. Consistency? What consistency?

The description of Harry's room shows he was already on his way to becoming the worst slob child hero in the history of literature. Didn't living in a closet teach him to appreciate having space?

Harry can't even see a cat in the darkness (sorry Harry, your Head of House doesn't spend her summer spying on you) so he concludes there can't be any wizard lurking outside. Despite knowing at least one way to be invisible and knowing that some wizards don't need a cloak to be invisible.

Bizarre accidents and injuries are unavoidable at Hogwarts, which is why it is such a safe place.

The Dursleys weren't of any help to Harry while awake. Except by magically protecting him from Voldemort, just the wizard he feared might be near. OK, they didn't have to be awake for the protection to work, but their being awake didn't hinder it either. (I know Harry didn't know of the protection yet, it's just that he makes judgments in ignorance.)

The story about Harry supposedly attending St Brutus' Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys is now the official line the Dusrleys tell anyone. How does that fit with their desire to project the 'perfectly normal' image? (Note the foreshadowing of Barty entering Harry to the Tournament as a student from a different school.)

Voldemort is still "the most powerful Dark wizard for a century". Maybe the ones before him were Albus and Gellert, in the summer of 1899. Just under a century ago - the timing almost works. Gellert never came back to Britain and Albus thinks he abandoned Dark magic, under some definition thereof.

Harry thinks there was a fortnight to go until his return to school. Looks like ending his math education at 11 didn't do him good.

Harry's assessment of Hermione's probable response is realistic. However why does not knowing where Albus went for the summer preclude writing to him? Not knowing where Sirius was didn't stop Harry from writing to him. Ah, he's ashamed to look stupid for saying his scar hurt. What about including that it hurt while he was having a vision of Voldemort killing someone? Why would this look stupid to Dumbledore rather than, say, informative? But a Gryffindor can't afford to appear weak in any way, even if this means hiding potentially crucial information.

Arthur is described as a 'fully qualified wizard'. Aren't almost all adult wizards? How meaningful is this description? Again, Harry's fear of appearing weak to the Weasleys trumps any common sense.

Only Dumbledore believed the trio's story about Sirius. Maybe because he was the only one who heard it in detail from Sirius. Anyone else present (Severus, Fudge, Poppy) just heard kids insisting on something. Severus also heard Sirius and Remus admitting to being serial liars. And was repeatedly injured by Sirius (after already being injured by the kids) and thus was denied a chance to receive evidence of the truth.

So Harry writes to Sirius. The part about Dudley's diet looks like Harry already mentioned the diet in a previous letter, but on the previous page I got the impression this was the first time Harry writes to Sirius. Oh well.

Dudley is ridiculous for enjoying a game called "Mega-Mutilation Part Three". That's because Harry goes to a school where kids learn how to really mutilate each other.

Again, Harry avoids mentioning any part of his dream. Nor does he date his letter. How is Sirius going to know when 'this morning' refers to? Why be helpful to adults whose advice you are seeking?

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Mini-essays are good. :-)

And okay, I accept that Snape made some effort to teach Harry in the first lesson. But things seemed to stall for the next 3+ months; you'd think Snape would have tried *something* else to get Harry to perform.

We know from DH that Snape was, at this point in time, working for Harry's survival, so I dare so you're correct. Maybe I'll just have to retreat to stating that he was a lousy teacher. :-)

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Hee! At least I got one concession out of you!

And well, I do maintain my whole 'it's hard to teach an innate skill', but yeah, Snape's abrasive attitude and the whole hostility-years-in-the-making would've hindered his attempts at knocking through Harry's skull. (hence the fanfic trope where Snape teaches Hermione Occlumency so she can teach it to Harry!)

Look, I love the man, but when I read through this chapter- I'm not cutting Harry any slack, he was a crappy student and just ignored his instructions and all, but Snape was snapping and being combative in the rare instance where Harry was making an effort to be polite and not get provoked. So yeah, his teaching, not really up to par.

things seemed to stall for the next 3+ months; you'd think Snape would have tried *something* else to get Harry to perform.

Okay, enough Snape criticism from my part, I'm gonna just point out that we weren't privy to those lessons, so we don't know what else he might've tried, and also, there were a couple occasions when Harry said he wasn't following up on Snape's tips for achieving effective mental safety, so it could be that he just wasn't trying (especially with comments about how he wouldn't have had such-and-such a vision if he'd learned Occlumency, so I think he subconsciously was resisting because he didn't want to learn to shut the visions out).

YES, I BLAME HARRY FOR EVERYTHING, NO, I'M NOT BIASED. Um. *cough*

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I think he probably threw in the towel after the Pensieve incident because at that point he didn't trust himself not to go ballistic on Harry during every further lesson, beyond the fact that at that point the lessons were rather a wash anyway. Clearly his emotions make teaching Harry effectively/fairly difficult, and I don't mean just something to do with James. Harry is associated directly or indirectly with just about *every* major emotional event of his life that we know of since the age of 11, even probably the Shack after the events of PoA, so every time he's with the kid a lot of messy and contradictory emotions get pulled up in him.

And while he can control his emotions well for certain finite durations that crop up occasionally, doing it week in week out in the face of a reminder of his his most painful experiences has got to be insanely draining. Meeting Voldie didn't happen every week, after all, plus he was living in the same building as Harry and so dealt in some way with him nearly every day. 4+ years of that, plus Harry's contributions to the hostility, under a burden of life-or-death stress, would at that point I think have made it vanishingly unlikely that he *could* be perfectly calm and reasonable during lessons of such a kind.

I also agree that Occlumency came naturally to him, so he had very little idea of how to effectively teach it. He could have done better at trying other ways of teaching it, certainly. But I think even in the best of circumstances things would have been too chaotic emotionally for him for the lessons to go very well - even laying aside the inherent absurdity of asking someone in Severus' position RE the war to teach Harry how to block Voldie. That doesn't mean he's not also contributing to the problem, but I guess I understand *why* it's so hard for him, whereas for Harry I have more difficulty finding a solid understandable reason for him to be so cavalier and difficult without him looking simply lazy. (Any thoughts? Something about his psychology after growing up with the Dursleys maybe? I do think he has great difficulty telling criticism from personal animosity due to that issue.) Which is disappointing in a hero character, especially one who seemed promising at the start of the series.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Except he seemed to do better one on one with Harry. He answered his questions and wasn't quite so snarky about it.

However, obviously Harry wasn't taking it seriously. He did no practice on his own so I don't think anyone could have taught him that subject. It seems he wanted to keep the connection.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree Harry wasn't interested really in doing it properly. And yes, he's clearly *better* with Harry one-on-one - but that seems to be part of his teaching style anyway: one-on-one is better. What we see with Harry, though, is not necessarily the best he's capable of one-on-one, because of the emotional issues that are still there. The general stress of having to control a room full of hormonal teens armed with explosives and fire isn't there, and he doesn't have to put on any 'big bad Harry-hating DE' mask either, so he's definitely better, but he's still having more difficulty than he would with a student who doesn't tie him in emotional knots. Even a lazy student who wasn't Harry wouldn't provoke him in quite the same way as Harry; Harry's the one most easily able to get him to fly off the handle, not only by his own behavior, but also over associations he can't help.

Also, I imagine he took the lessons quite seriously and so did his best to restrain himself and all. Had Harry bothered to put effort into it, they might even have gone fairly decently. Severus does take his teaching duties seriously, particularly so given that it's Harry/the war. But Severus would still be snarky and stressed out and not sweet-helpful-nice-mentor-Snape (I say that as someone who adores Mentor!Snape fics).

But perhaps I mean more that, given Harry's lack of effort, etc., Severus is going to react in probably the worst way possible because of all those emotional issues, even though he's not in the normal full-class stress mode. That teaching Harry was never going to be a perfectly calm and perfectly reasonable process for him, but one inclined to tension, due to the emotions the kid is associated with for him.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think if Harry hadn't decided to dislike him and they hadn't a bad run first impres then he might not have actively disliked Harry. Sure he'd not be super friendly...what with his spy role...but imagine if he acted less like James and more like Lily. To Snape that is. Personally I didn't find anything redeemable about Lily. But Snape apparently didn't see the flaws. Harry, however, didn't seem inclined to try. I don't think I could have taught Harry without sending a few hexes his way.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I've wondered about that myself. He might have had a better relationship with Harry, yes. But I don't ever see it being an emotionally simple relationship for him, at least.

RE Lily: my theory is that during the brief time of his loyal DE days, he was rather angry at Lily - but he also still cared for her, and after the prophecy disaster he couldn't *afford* (emotionally) to be angry at her any more; she/her son was his reason for living, she was the one he betrayed (if unintentionally), the one he ought to have followed (I mean in his own mind - he would have seen it as 'Lily was right, if only if only I'd listened' etc.)

She's the one he's always sought forgiveness from, and so he's going to turn back to her for that again now, except that's unreachable, and it's his own fault. She's the goddess he needs to worship in order to keep himself going and push himself through all of the difficult things in instinctively knows he needs to do, his guiding light in a way. So he subconsciously idealizes her and denies any anger he has towards her, because then the simple framework of 'Lily was right, I betrayed her, I must atone and bear all of this, it is all my fault' which I see undergirding everything he does would break down, and he'd have to figure out complicated things emotionally during the war, which would make it insane to try that for him just then.

So his anger then comes out in his view of Harry, only he puts the name 'James' to all of it instead of part of it. Because admitting that he was angry at Lily or that she wasn't perfect would let all sorts of complicated painful things in that he doesn't have the time or energy to deal with at the moment. And since he's been prepping for this for ten years, he has a *lot* invested in the perfect-Lily idol.

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Ah but how much more interesting the books would have been if the author was able to get inside her characters and give them the subtle shades that make them "real".

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Too true.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Your theory holds a lot more water than what we got in the series. I'm admiring it like the shiny, perfect orb it is.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Aw, thank you. Trying to make everything in canon reconcile and fit together might be a pointless task, but if I think of it this way at least Severus still makes some sense psychologically to me across all the books.

Of course, it's possible that I spend way too much time thinking about these things, lol. :)

Fashionably late

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

This comment is made of win. It's far more psychologically plausible than the notion that Snape never ever wavered in his Lily-worship. Also, I'm delighted that someone finally found an effective answer to the neverending, circular debate about how Snape's relationship with Harry was affected by the elder Potters. "If only Snape could have seen that Harry's more like Lily than James he'd have been nicer to him, but what if Harry's really more like James, or maybe he takes after them both...." Doesn't matter which parent he's like 'cause deep down, Snape was pissed at them both? Love it.

Trying something else

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

But remember that Snape picked up that Harry not only was being lazy and disobeying Severus's instructions, but that the boy actively wanted the connection--he liked those dreams. And no matter how much people who Harry trusted (Remus, Sirius, Dumbledore, Hermione) told Harry he HAD to learn to close his mind against Voldemort (HA! More fools they. The author would throw away that necessity when it became inconvenient.) Harry still wouldn't make the most minimal effort.

So I suspect part of the unpleasantness of the lessons was Severus's trying to motivate Harry to learn to shut SNAPE out, since he really didn't want to shut VOLDEMORT out. And until the kid was motivated by SOMETHING (anything), he wasn't going to learn a thing.

And nothing Severus could do would budge the kid. He just wasn't gonna, and that was that.

Re: Trying something else

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Interesting idea - I think I buy it as part of what's going on. Severus is certainly willing to play the bad cop, so to speak, if he thinks it necessary. (I also buy Jodel's notion that part of his dreaded potions master persona was a deliberate attempt to show the kids that knew that DEs are not fun and friendly creatures.)

Re: Trying something else

[oryx_leucoryx]

(I also buy Jodel's notion that part of his dreaded potions master persona was a deliberate attempt to show the kids that knew that DEs are not fun and friendly creatures.)

Except most students don't know he ever was a DE. Had there been a student rumor to that effect the Weasley kids would have relayed it to Harry just like they relay the rumor about him wanting the DADA job or his favoring the Slytherins (yes, any disciplinarian would appear to be favoring the Slytherins in a class that included the twins). After Voldemort's return the trio, the Weasley kids and the DE sons knew, but that's about it.

Re: Trying something else

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

It was aimed mostly at those in danger of becoming DEs - i.e. the ones in his house whose relatives were DEs. They were also most likely to know or suspect that he was a DE. It was an attempt on his part to dissuade them from considering the idea. The rest of the kids didn't exactly need to be told that DEs are not pink bunny rabbits.

Re: Trying something else

[oryx_leucoryx]

I don't think Draco knew his father had been a DE until around GOF. Lucius' official story was that whatever he did for Voldemort's cause was done against his will. I'm guessing he claimed that he was among those that thought Voldemort had right ideas here and there but was a bit extreme, especially in his tactics. And he is smart enough not to tell a young child a different version than he tells the public at large. As far as the DE kids knew until around GOF, the only DEs still alive were in Azkaban, except for Igor Karkaroff far away in Durmstrang. So I don't think they suspected Severus was a DE until Voldemort's return.

Re: Trying something else

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

And nothing Severus could do would budge the kid.

But do we know for sure that 'nothing' Snape could do would budge Harry? Do we see him try *everything*?

It's a long time since I read OotP but my impression/recollection was that Snape didn't try very hard to teach Harry ... certainly not the 'everything' that might have been required to 'budge the kid'. I'll lay the greater share of the blame on Harry, sure, he just didn't want very much to learn, and wasn't trying. But he had tried, to some extent, and it hadn't worked. Surely Snape could have picked up on that rather than just saying "do it again"? If it hadn't worked the first 99 times ...

HA! More fools they. The author would throw away that necessity when it became inconvenient.

More fools US. :-(

Re: Trying something else

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

At the risk of sounding slightly obsessed about this, we only see two lessons, iirc- the first one, where he does impart a lot of info and answer questions and we already see Harry mentally checking out, and the last lesson, when Harry breached his privacy so thoughtlessly and dredged up his worst memory. I'm not sure how people can judge him for lessons over three months or so that we didn't see. Especially when the book outright says Harry either wasn't trying or subconsciously liked getting visions.

I WILL STOP NAGGING YOU NOW, I SWEAR.

Re: Trying something else

[oryx_leucoryx]

I think we see another one - the one which was interrupted by the sacking of Sybil. Was that the one where Harry used Protego and Severus saw the dream-vision of Rookwood telling Voldmeort that Avery's information about the DOM was incorrect?

Re: Trying something else

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

You'd half convinced me when you you'd told me previously about the first lesson, but I can only take so much nagging before I crack but since you mentioned it again now I thought I'd go and read it myself.

Yeah, okay, Harry's a lazy lying kid who let his hate of Snape get the better of him ... but Snape isn't much better. Harry asks him *outright* how to actually "repel him with his mind":

"I'm trying," said Harry angrily, "But you're not telling me how!"

"Manners, Potter," said Snape dangerously. "Now, I want you to close your eyes."

Snape doesn't tell him. Snape *never* tells him.

Now, some people here have noted that most of Rowling's magic seems to be along the same lines - one or two latin words at best, then try, try, try again - and that Lupin's lessons on casting a Patronus were along the same lines as Snape's Occlumency lessons - i.e. try, try and try again.

But still, Snape never tells Harry how to do Occlumency. And he never even tells Harry that there's nothing more he can tell him. In other words he never answers the question. If he'd just said "sorry, Potter, everyone must do it their own way ... there is no magic word ... you'll have to resist me intuitively, like you did Crouch's Imperius curse" - anything along the lines of what others in this thread have said - then I'd be satisfied that Snape had tried his best to teach Harry.

But Snape didn't say those words. He didn't answer Harry's question. Never.

Therefore ... HE DID NOT TRY HIS BEST TO TEACH HARRY.

*nods*

By the way ... another reason I'd always thought that Snape was deliberately using the sessions to *attack* Harry was in the second one, where he tells Harry "defend yourself on the count of three" and then jumps the gun with "two". Now, some people go "one, two, three, GO!" and others "one, two, GO!". So I wasn't prepared to charge Snape with that particular crime.

But I've just now seen that in the FIRST lesson Snape says the very same thing - he'll cast the charm on the count of three - and he *counts to three*! One, two, three, legilimens. In fact that happens in the second lesson too, before Snape deliberately jumps that gun. Naughty Snape!

So I think I've wobbled back over to my original position that Snape wasn't trying to teach Harry (properly) at all. And with the pensieve there he had no reason not to. BAD SNAPE.

I WILL STOP NAGGING YOU NOW, I SWEAR.

*cries*

*hides*

Re: Trying something else

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Okay, for some reason my pdf doesn't have that chapter and I'm too lazy to get up and consult the book, but I seem to recall Snape saying to Harry that resisting involved the same principles as throwing off the Imperius? And I skimmed through that quickly- fake!Moody gave no instructions at all and Harry just instinctively threw it off. No wonder Snape was so irritated, he probably thought Harry wasn't trying. How could he resist one form of mental control and yet be so inept at this?

Personally, I'm not too fussed about the one-two-three thing. He was testing Harry, probably trying to trigger those reflexes that served him well with the imperius, but nothing doing.

Anyway, my issue with Snape was less that he wasn't trying to teach him- I just assumed he was, lol!- and more his attitude with Harry. We actually see him trying to be polite (which he NEVER does after this book, in HBP, it's all hostility, all the time) and holding his tongue and heeding Snape's ridiculous repetitions of 'call me sir' (*winces at that HPB scene*) and doesn't get provoked for a record amount of time. I was actually eyerolling a bit- I love Snape when he's being snarky, but he really did seem more petty than ever over the constant 'sir' business.

Then again, maybe that was for Voldy's benefit if he was looking through Harry's eyes. IDK. TOO HARD TO TELL.

One last thing: I'd always thought that Snape was deliberately using the sessions to *attack* Harry... If that were the case, he had ample amount of fodder to humiliate Harry with. He saw all kinds of embarrassing memories and didn't use any of that ammo against him- and this was prior to Harry breaking into his memories, so it wasn't out of fear that Harry would blab about him.

It's just like Harry dying of humiliation at Draco finding out about his 'remedial potions lessons', assuming he's gonna spread it round the school to make life miserable, and yet he never does. Neither Slytherin uses their ammo against him. O.o

I WILL STOP NAGGING YOU NOW, I SWEAR.
*cries*
*hides*

Lol! You mean you want me to nag some more? :P That's a first...

But yeah, I think I'm all out on this, it's really a matter of interpretation. JKR totally works best when she gives us the bare bones and allows us to make up our minds- it's when she's not happy with unsympathetic characters getting fans or her fave ship not getting enough fans and does her best to shoe-horn everyone into place and pin them down like butterflies on a board that it all falls apart. There's a bunch of different and equally plausible ways to view Snape's actions in these lessons and which keep him in-character. There is just no good way to look at that crapilogue.

Re: Trying something else

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I'm way behind, 105 messages in my LJ! DOH! I'll just try to respond to them as I get to them.

Anyway, on Snape and Harry and Occlumency.

I think part of the interesting dynamic of Harry is that there are other things he automatically seems to get. Flying, making the patronus also we are lead to believe is advanced and Harry seems to pick it up quickly.

I think part of Harry's frustration is he doesn't get it, that part of magic is not his specialty and he seems incapable and lacking in that area.

Instead of being able to admire or learn from Snape - he decided it was Snape is being mean to me, and he's making my situation worse.

It was as if there was no way Harry was going to admit that Snape was actually better than him at something. Harry was expecting to wave a wand and eventually this branch of magic would become easy. I think Harry may have expected it to be like flying or the patronus, so when it wasn't Harry was frustrated but not willing to see or listen to Snape's advice.

Harry never took the advice Snape was giving him, and like many readers have taken Harry's side in the situation, they see it as Snape being mean, purposefully ruining the lessons and giving up.

I'm not trying to say Snape didn't have issues with the Occlumency but Snape as others have pointed out might have been constrained to some extent - it still doesn't excuse the 'hero' lacking the desire to learn an important skill.

Harry believes that the visions are important but even when Snape explains that yes, Voldemort might use them to trick/manipuate him. Or as Harry puts it make him do stuff. Harry seems less than earnest in his approach to Occlumency.

I also don't see where Harry matures any at the end of OOTP - even when Dumbledore points out that Snape was actually trying to help. Even going so far as warning Sirius, Harry still puts the blame on Snape for Sirius murder.

Snape may have made mistakes, but I don't see how a teacher can teach a child who will not learn.

The person who is most responsible for learning is the student, a teacher cannot force knowledge into you. I don't care how good or bad a teacher is.

Harry took it upon himself to teach other kids how to do the patronus. Where was his initiative and self motivation in learning Occlumency?????